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View Full Version : Gas Flow Obstruction in Trane 6 Ton Split.



charliegolf720
04-24-2005, 10:31 AM
Working on a Trane 6 ton A/C unit which runs year round to cool radio transmittor equipment. The orginal complaint was that the transmittor equipment were reaching high temperature levels, close to trip out.
When I got there, the t-stat was oviously calling but the compressor would not run. I traced the lock out to compressor OLs, which were open. I opened the disconnect and allowed the compressor to cool down. After a coffee run, I ohmed the OLs. They were now closed so I put power back to the unit, it immediately started up. Both suction and liquid line pressures were 120 psi. After about four and a half minutes of no pumping, the windings heated up enough again and the thermal OLs opened. I determined that either the suction and/or dicharge valves in the hermetic unit were damaged. The compressor would have to be replaced. Just to sure, I allowed the unit to cool down once again and went through the entire system. All valves in the circuit were open for refrigerant flow. The second test had the same result as the first.
The following day, I replaced the compressor (Trane GP813-NN3-G), suction filter, and liquid line drier. The name plate refigerant charge for the condensing unit was 13 pounds of R-22 plus with line sets, estimated another pound to start. The unit has a 5 ton nominal TXV. So I decided any additional charge, if needed, would be measured in using the subcooling method (15 degrees).
Well, I started the unit up and immediately things wern't right. Suction 30 to 20 psi. Liquid line pressure decreased to between 75 to 55 psi. The liquid line frosted right up. The unit would cycle on and off on low pressure. The charge was weighed in. Could I be that low on charge? If anything, the liquid line was so cold, you would think I way over charged it.
Anyway, when it cycled on and ran, I noticed a slight hissing sound coming from the unit. That seemed to explain my problem. Somewhere, there was a restriction to flow in the system. I shut the unit down and again checked valve positions, everything lined up.
Looking at the frosted liquid line, I spoted something I neglected to notice, a small factory installed drier. Great, I thought, I found the problem. I recovered the charge and removed the resricted drier. I ran 3/8" OD tubing in its place since I already had a new drier installed down the line. Dehydrated unit and put the charge back in. Problem solved right?
Nope. Started up unit and again had low suction and liquid line pressures. Again, liquid line was frosting up. Hissing sound was back. This time I could hear it better. It seemed to come from the suction line accumulator. This must have been the original obstruction.
Anyway, the customer is already crying about cost of repairs, the ussual. My question is, can I remove the accumulator all together? There seems to be a good year round heat load. I see why it is there, but do I really need it? Please offer some sound advice. Tension tight and this job is starting to make me look bad. Any help would greatly be appreciated.
Make: Trane
Model: TTA072C300A0

Charlie

service guy
04-24-2005, 12:35 PM
So the question is can you remove the accumulator?? Well what i want to know is what is in the accumulator? How did it get in there and will it happen again the solution is to replace to accumulator and figure out whats in the old accumulator cut it open if you have to yes you could remove it but why do that I never recommend just removing something because it's blocked or in the way, find out why it's restricted and fix or replace with new.

wolfdog
04-24-2005, 01:16 PM
I would be very surprised to find a restriction in an accumulator.
The only orifice in one is at the bottum of the stand pipe to pick up the oil in the accumulator. Otherwise it like 7/8 in and 7/8 out or whatever the stub size is.

Liquid line frosting up does not sound line accumulator problems.

[Edited by wolfdog on 04-24-2005 at 01:19 PM]

control_noob
04-24-2005, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by wolfdog


Liquid line frosting up does not sound line accumulator problems.



I smell condenser coil restriction...

charliegolf720
04-24-2005, 02:35 PM
Looks like I maybe way off with this accumulator. If there is a restriction in the condenser coil, how can I get it out? Should I make a cut in the outlet of the condenser and force nitrogen through the inlet? There is a liquid line service valve. Maybe something is held up there. Anyone ever had a problem like this before? Any ideas? I go back to the job site tomorrow.
Thanks.

Charlie

service guy
04-24-2005, 03:08 PM
I had this problem on a carrier 7 ton heat pump split the condenser was new airhandler new , the compressor failed i replaced compressor and reversing valve evacuate and charge system the head pressure was 350lbs on a 8o degree day what the F#$%. I recovered charge and found check valves in condenser were blocked the system was trashed with debris I suspect no purge of nitrogen was used during brazing. I replaced condenser unit and line set, replaced TXV and cleaned evap with RX11 flush Installed oversize drier and all was ok. the Problem I had was the condenser had so many check valves I think around 8 and a accumulator there just was no chance to get it all out of system at that point the accumulator became a trash can and the compressor was not getting good oil return. Just thought I'd share my horror story.

wolfdog
04-24-2005, 03:48 PM
I have used Watsco line taps for this kind of trouble shooting. When you finish, remove the tap and weld up the hole.

charliegolf720
04-24-2005, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by smac
Charliegolf720: I have seen the compressor valves break apart and actully get blown into the condenser before the compressor quits completely. I would say your restriction is going to probably be where your frost starts or you have a major temp drop. Hopefully that is not in your condenser. If it is a Trane and its an alluminum coil, this would not be good. I have even seen the chips from the valves make it all the way heading into the TXV. On ocasions have also seen liquid line dryers break apart and viscus balls going down liquid line restricting flow. I try and explain to my customers that sometimes things cause compressors to go bad which can't be detected until the new one is replaced. Good Luck. Sounds like you have your work cut out.

Smac,

Come to think of, I did inspect the small drier after removing it and some of those viscous balls did fall out. Also, it does have an aluminum condenser coil. Looks like I'm batting close to zero.
Tomorrow, I'll remove down stream from the bad drier, the service valve and see if that is plugged too. I'll also have to remove the accumulator and atleast inspect it. I swear that is where the hissing is coming from but I could be wrong. Oh well, reality sucks.

Charlie

charliegolf720
04-24-2005, 07:20 PM
Smac,

When I replaced the compressor I also removed an existing drier on the liquid line located at the air handling unit. The drier should have protected the txv. My guess is that whoever installed the unit did not know it had one factory installed at the condenser unit. You see, you would have to remove the panal to the coil to see the little thing.
I have to pull the charge out of it again to check the service valve after that little drier. It has a stem and valve seat and is opened and closed using an allen wrench. It may be gummed up with debris from the drier as well as the compressor. With the charge out it wouldn't hurt to check the accumulator as well.

charliegolf720
04-24-2005, 09:38 PM
Smac,

As I stated in the beginning post, the small plugged filter drier had been removed and 3/8" OD tubing put in its place. There is a newly installed drier down stream before the evap coil.
I see your point on the restriction and pump down theory. What I'll do is braze in an access stub on the dicharge line before it enters the the inlet of the condenser. I'll then try to dislodge the restriction with compressed nitrogen. I'll let you know how it works out. Thanks again.

Charlie

charliegolf720
04-24-2005, 09:48 PM
Smac,

Whoops! I forgot to add your idea of cutting the condenser outlet line after the service befor I go running all that nitrogen from the inlet. Wouldn't want keep running all that crap in the piping. Kinda like beating your head against a wall. It only feels better when ya stop.

charliegolf720
04-24-2005, 10:16 PM
Smac,

Good point. I remember running the unit after the bad drier had been removed and seeing the frost build up at the immediate point of exit of the condenser. This is atleast a foot before the service valve.
The unit also has a liquid line solenoid for pump down. I can see where this is going.

Charlie

charliegolf720
04-25-2005, 07:19 PM
Tapped into the condenser inlet and cut the outlet line today. Regulated 150 psi of nitrogen through the inlet and could barely get any gas out of the outlet. I could actually cap it with my finger. It was as if I was bleeding the line to braze. Amazing.
Anyway, showed the owner and We both agree to just go with a new split. Thanks for all the help.

Charlie

control_noob
04-26-2005, 04:22 PM
Originally posted by charliegolf720
Tapped into the condenser inlet and cut the outlet line today. Regulated 150 psi of nitrogen through the inlet and could barely get any gas out of the outlet. I could actually cap it with my finger. It was as if I was bleeding the line to braze. Amazing.
Anyway, showed the owner and We both agree to just go with a new split. Thanks for all the help.

Charlie

Glad to hear you found the restricted coil, glad I could help. :D

twcpipes
04-27-2005, 02:58 PM
When you change out the consing unit can you cut out the coil and turn it upside down and see how much oil comes out?
Thanx.

JimStreet
04-05-2010, 01:12 PM
Interesting story. Would the compressor still have needed to be replaced in this situation or was the blocked condenser coil the only issue?