Dangerous Effects of this Site

[nathan9999]

I just wanted to let you guys know what kind of effect spending too much time on this site does for a consumer.

After making up my mind about the HVAC for my new home (80% single stage and 13 SEER), last night I had an epiphany (never get to use that word in my work) and I just decided I am going to spend a few thousand more and go with a 90%+ with VS (probably Rheem modulating) and a higher SEER AC.

So here was my experience with this site:

Ignorance > Confusion > Enough knowledge to be dangerous >
More confusion > A little more knowledge > First conclusion> A little more knowledge > Conclusion I'm just being too cheap > Final conclusion.

So I'll get a better system and not go on vacation next year.

Thanks, guys!!

[Twilly]

Originally posted by nathan9999
I just wanted to let you guys know what kind of effect spending too much time on this site does for a consumer.

After making up my mind about the HVAC for my new home (80% single stage and 13 SEER), last night I had an epiphany (never get to use that word in my work) and I just decided I am going to spend a few thousand more and go with a 90%+ with VS (probably Rheem modulating) and a higher SEER AC.

So here was my experience with this site:

Ignorance > Confusion > Enough knowledge to be dangerous >
More confusion > A little more knowledge > First conclusion> A little more knowledge > Conclusion I'm just being too cheap > Final conclusion.

So I'll get a better system and not go on vacation next year.

Thanks, guys!!


Gooooooooooood decision, and you be able to enjoy your next vaction with the piece of mind that you choose the best furnace on the market....

Also would you send me a private email? I have a couple of questions for you. My email is under my credintials

[cbmechanical]

What happened to you is the best thing about this site.

[nathan9999]

This site is pretty unique, it seem to me. dozens of different contractors, service techs, etc. responding to inquiries and offering advice. For the most part not too many flame-throwers either, mostly experienced professionals spending their time in an activity which will not make them a dime.

I'm a CPA by trade and I don't know of such a forum in my line of work.

Thanks again for all the advice.

[Tempted]

Originally posted by nathan9999
This site is pretty unique, it seem to me. dozens of different contractors, service techs, etc. responding to inquiries and offering advice. For the most part not too many flame-throwers either, mostly experienced professionals spending their time in an activity which will not make them a dime.

I'm a CPA by trade and I don't know of such a forum in my line of work.

Thanks again for all the advice.




I don't think we would be really clear if we read and Accounting forum atleast I wouldn't. I do know that I would of liked to try many a time. Why don't you start one, very few if any companies don't have accounting questions. I sure do.

[nathan9999]

Tempted, I wouldn't even know where to start. I know you'd have to have a lot of accountants participating because it might be days before I myself could respond to a question and the person asking the question might not want to wait that long.

On this site almost every question or inquiry starts getting responses in hours, and often minutes.

[chillbilly]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nathan9999
[B]I just wanted to let you guys know what kind of effect spending too much time on this site does for a consumer.




Your post illustrates the metamorphisis (I never get to use that word in my daily work) from consumer to an informed customer.

[contactor]

nathan9999, a vacation is important too.The heat/ AC system is the heart of your home.Finances are up to you.
Wanna here my financial problems?
Daughter went to Prom tonight, $750
sons recent headaches that insurance wont cover,$ 1200
My heat and AC system Priceless.
Thank god I have credit, Going Salmon fishing for our vacation!

[Xavier]

Nathan Did you do a ROI on all the permutations and combinations? The most expensive is not always the best investment. My web site shows how to calculate your energy costs to help in the analysis.

Depending on your Heating vs Cooling costs in California, you may want to increase one and decrease the other.

Continue your analysis until you eliminate the confusion, because the only confusing decisions we have is on our Income Taxes!

[MikeJ]

Originally posted by nathan9999
This site is pretty unique, it seem to me.

I'm a CPA by trade and I don't know of such a forum in my line of work.

Thanks again for all the advice.


Just curious. Did you compute the savings you may get with the upgrade>?

This might pay for a vacation in 5 yrs? That is, in addition to the one scheduled.

[docholiday]

Here we go, even people in this industry taking comfort out of the equation again.

Nathan you made a wise choice you will not regret. The mod, is by far the best furnace on the market today and the only ones who will buck you on that are the ones who have never had the pleasure of experiencing one. In all the years of experience many of the techs, dealers, installers and even mfg's have, they cannot phathom there can be a difference in comfort over their "premium" systems yet it does exsist.

As you have read here almost daily, the installation is crucial, anyone installing or selling this equipment should know that and take the added steps to make sure your installation has the attention to detail equal to the furnace.

Take pics, and lets all hope they end up on the "Wall of Pride" and not the "Wall of Shame"

[nathan9999]

Xavier, I know I did a permutation in statistics class but my religion forbids permutations on the sabbath.

Just kidding, I'll check out your site. As far as the potential future benefits I do have some faith that electric rates and natural gas in California will only continue to increase in the future, and as we intend to be in this next house for 15-20 years I do feel going as close to max efficiency will be rewarded.

Since I'm in a hot dry climate I do want as high a SEER AC. In some respects a two-stage VS furnace is more important than a 90%+ feature on the heating side, but I still feel as though the savings will increase going forward. I have been convinced of the comfort benefits of a modulating design and it seems as though Rheem/Ruud is really the only current provider.

Doc, thanks for your advice. Your posts have been quite informative and balanced. You put a high priority on installation quality but do not go as far as to say that equipment quality is unimportant. You are also a consistent advocate of comfort issues. Although we live in an area with mild winters I am hoping the modulating furnace will provide increased comfort, particularly if my parents come to live with us.

While I am quite convinced of the Rhhem/Ruud furnace I have not heard as much about their AC units. I hope their 16 or 18 SEER units prove to be reliable.

My one concern is that one of the consistent themes from those who have been in the HVAC business for some time is that the quality of the current products may not measure up to older products. There have also been quite a few posts that claims that the newer higher efficiency products with more features may require more repairs and that an extended warranty is important.

Here's an interesting admission that may make some you shake your heads. I bought my house 26 years ago. The HVAC is a Rheem roof top combination unit and it has never been serviced. I had the thermostat replaced about 8 years ago.

So either I'm lucky or the quality of the older units was higher. In any case I probably won't test fate like this with the new equipment.

Thanks again.

[docholiday]

I assure you the 16 and 18 SEER units are great. In the 410A versions you have multi stage capcity and some of the highest latant capacity I have seen in high efficiency machines. Very quiet and much easier to service than most.

[nathan9999]

Doc, I can assure you that I am looking forward to the highest latent capacity I can afford (now I'm going to go look up latent capacity). Actually, my clients often tell me that I obviously have a lot of latent mental capacity! Is that the same as unused brain potential? I don't know if it is a compliment or not.

[jeffkillen]

It's a very simple sale point but true,You'll spend 20,000+ on a vehicle,why not spend half that on a heating/cooling system that will serve you for years?

[Xavier]

Nathan, forgot to ask, have you had or is the HVAC contractor doing a heat loss/gain analysis so you properly size the units? Correct sizing is very very important for "comfort"!

You stated that your parents may visit. The number one complaint by "older" homeowners of their new 90+ furnaces is the temperature of the air coming out is COLD!

The point I am attempting to make (as I was an accountant many years ago) is the decision of which HVAC system to purchase today, is very complicated and difficult.

Good Luck

[nathan9999]

Xavier, is the complaint over cooler air on 1st lower stage? Or is it a complaint for both stages?

I had not heard of this issue with higher efficiency furnaces. I had heart this with heat pumps. Is this a common complaint with 90%+ furnaces? If so, why is it a problem with this type of furnace?

Forgot to add, the architect did a Manual J and Title 24 calculation but I plan to ask the HVAC contractor to re-do and re-confirm the Manual J as a condition of the contract signing.

[Edited by nathan9999 on 04-24-2005 at 07:28 PM]

[Twilly]

That Doc he's a smart one for sure and I love the way he guns them carrier guys down. He couldn't have picked a better name.

Long live Doc Holiday

[jdew1920]

Nathan - for what it's worth, the Rheem Modulating furnace that I just had installed this week does not put out cold air at lowest capacity (40%). We've been around 30-35 deg this weekend and it just keeps humming along at 40%, the air flow is low but the air temp is warm.

[docholiday]

Nathan... Ignore the low temperature complaints.

The furnace when powered up will go through a calibration cycle. It will fire itself at various rates and by sensing the supply air temperature, will program itself to operate at the mid point of the designed temperature rise at any firing rate.

The software in the board and thermostat, determine the firing rate and the board tells the blower how fast to run. At 40% firing rate you will have the same temperature rise you would at 100%. The volume will be low to the point you think you have baseboard heat. In your mild climate, the furnace will stay at the 40% most of the time I am sure and modulate up when that is simply not enough. There is an option for the installer, if well trained, to modify the temperatur rise but in most cases its best left alone.

JDew, nice to see an owner testimonial.

[nathan9999]

Doc, just one more question. The AC unit will use the VS blower on the furnace, right? So if I have the 16 or 18 SEER Rheem/Ruud AC I will also have a VS feature on the AC.

Thanks again.

[docholiday]

Yes.

[bornriding]

Nathan,
Better save next years and the next years vacations to save up for the repair costs and short life span of the new equipment yur purchasing.
Of course, I'm a KISS man, and its only my opinion

[nathan9999]

born, so your experience is that the higher efficiency units with features such as VS and multi-stage are less reliable? I have read that from others on this site as well. In your opinion, is this just a function of new untested technology, improper installation, etc.?

I plan on getting an extended warranty and will try to confirm the elements of a quality intsallation and just hope for the best.

I do appreciate the honest, if differing, feedback.

[docholiday]

Lol he's never even seen one.

[bornriding]

Actually, Doc, I have seen one ( maybe two ).
No Nathan, My opinions are based in my experience. Which I readily admit, with higher eff. systems, are little. One experience was with a variable speed, system, eff ???, unit five years old, blower motor went out, cost 642.00 to repair. Where did the efficiency go then.
I believe that the more complicated a system is, the more problems that will incur, and the more cost to operate and repair. I see that all the time with a/c units VS heat pumps.
In general the heat pumps save money, but around here, they usually won't last as long, and will incur more repair costs. That is why I never recommend a heat pump unit for a rental house. Too costly for the owner.
Its like the difference between an old sedan and a fully-loaded cadillac. You may be more comfortable in the caddy, but if you had to keep it for 15 years, and repair all the problems encountered, would you buy the cadillac ( power windows, seats, ect ) or the sedan. I opt for the sedan.

[docholiday]

Ok... Lets curb this while we can. I respect your opinion, I tend to believe it myself to an extent, but they dont make an atmospheric gravity furnace anymore so the comparisons are no longer fair. The differnce between a low level 90+ and a Mod90 is hardly worth the difference in comfort.

All furnaces made today have alot more parts than furnaces of yesteryear, granted, more moving parts. All furnaces have inducer or vent motors, all furnaces have blower motors. Most of the premium units have a variable speed motor and at least a 2 speed inducer. I cannot think of a furnace made in the past couple years that used a VS motor other than the ECM from GE. Many of the replaced motors, especially early on were misdiagnosed. Some were damaged by condensate. GE has also improved the module over the past 2 years inluding moisture protection. Many had the whole motor assembly replaced when just the module needed replaced. Sometimes this was at a homeowners expense but more than often it was warranty. The motor in the Mod is the same as any other VS furnace exept the software in it enables that same motor to work at a true variable speed while the rest are limited to two or three cfm ranges.

The furnace has a 5 year parts warranty and I believe Nathan mentioned he was going with the extended 10 year warranty including parts and labor. I always recommend this for all the more it costs. If he chooses the high seer condenser he may already get a 10 year warranty on all parts there.

Many furnace failures are due to airflow issues, the ECM will overcome many of those and the furnace will also control its temperature rise. It is Direct Spark ingition so it will not have a Hot surface ignitor to fail. The unit will cycle about a third as many times as the normal furnace which means less cycles on every part. The reliability of these furnaces is simply outstanding. Very, very few warranty claims. And so far no complaints from anyone who has one. Find that claim anywhere else. Its been around for 7 years.



[Edited by docholiday on 04-25-2005 at 11:33 PM]

[dash]

We sold hunderds of top of the VS ,two spped compressors ,etc.,all with ten year parts and labor.A total of around 1800 systems under Factory extended warranty,dating back to 1997.

I can tell you ,we don't bill the factory very much for service of these systems.

[Modman]

Originally posted by bornriding
Actually, Doc, I have seen one ( maybe two ).
No Nathan, My opinions are based in my experience. Which I readily admit, with higher eff. systems, are little. One experience was with a variable speed, system, eff ???, unit five years old, blower motor went out, cost 642.00 to repair. Where did the efficiency go then.
I believe that the more complicated a system is, the more problems that will incur, and the more cost to operate and repair. I see that all the time with a/c units VS heat pumps.

Jeeze!
I have read several of your posts against "technology". In my exposure in talking with dealers the complaints you have are typical. A repair guy sees the worst end of new technology - the manufacturer's oops stuff. But, the issues you state are dated. You formed your opinion during the genesis of these motors. Time to give it a new look. I agree that as an installer I would wait for the bugs to be worked out as the VS blowers did have issues at first. GE has been diligent in constantly refining these motors based on the field failures noted.
I challenge you to tear one of these VS motors apart. The rotor is a rare earth magnet, the bearings are ball bearing the windings are much thicker that a PSC. The control head is the where the issues are and they are rare these days. The cost of the control head is comparable to replacing a standard motor but sevicers lack of diagnostic confidence demonstrates a complete motor change when (maybe) a control head is all that is required.
I am intrigued by the way people will form an opinion and stick to it over two to ten issues and will become lifetime skeptics.
From what I've read in this forum It's like a 3-5 year delay in whats already been redesigned but repairers are just now seeing. The statements by Doc are correct- water resistant issues corrected; hard starts - corrected; voltage spike resistance corrected, etc. Companies don't make money on field failures. They refine constantly to make them better. The VS technology is old now. This technology is now a standard and with the higher seer rules and demand to have 16 seer and greater by discriminating buyers, Born, your going to see alot more of this. Better shed your skin and get ready.

[bornriding]

I absolutely do not ever mean to offend anyone with my views.
Doc, I respect yur opinions, as you seem to be well versed
Mod, I'm sur yu are too !

I simply believe that simple last longer and cost less.

give me 10 (10-12 seer )a/c units with electric heat and ten ( 10 -12 seer ) heat pump units, and ten ( 14 seer and above ), all serving the same size home in the same area.

I would bet yo that at the end of 15 years, most of the 14 & above systems will have been replaced, as would some if not most of the heat pumps. The majority of the a/c units with electric heat would still be operating.
I have seen this myself with heat pumps VS a/c w/heat.
The a/c w/heat just lasts longer in most cases.

And again, ya'll have to understand that I do most of my work for middle to lower income. The people that really don't have the money to spend.

[docholiday]

You dont offend me at all, I'm just a little concerned over the fact that Nathan has spent a great deal of time researching whats best for him, he listened to everyone with open ears and made a good, educated decision. Lets leave well enough alone and appriciate how much we wished all our customers were as well versed.

Of course a heat pump wont last as long as a straignt a/c would. It cycles 3-4 times more per year.

A 14 SEER (and above) should have TXV's and scroll compressors on top of LPS, HPS, Time delays etc. I understand thats more parts but the safeties themselves are often replaced because a parts changer doesnt know why they opened. Scrolls are certainly more resilliant to liquid than are recips and pistons are more likely to flood than txv's. Higher efficiency equipment has much closer tolerances, that should go without saying. This means there is less room for error or slop on the installation. installed properly, I just dont buy the failure rates being higher, in fact, I would bet that the higher SEER stuff has a lower warranty percentage (against sales) than the lower does.

In this case, you have gas furnaces, as I mentioned, all have inducers, all have gas valves, all have motors and all have circuit boards. The cost of a repair can o nly be compaired by the difference. The mod requires factory training and a standard furnace does not, we see it every day on here and in the wall of shame how poor some of them are installed. We also see some well done ones on the wall of pride. While factory training doesnt gaurentee a faultless installation, you gotta believe the guys paying to attend training at least care a little about what kind of service they offer. The Ruud reps would likely come down hard on a hacked in Mod.

[golf junkie]

The "collective" knowledge of the group is one of the most amazing things about internet forums.

I've seen it on several different boards over the years. There's not much that hasn't been tried by someone before you. Learn from others experiments and save yourself the pain and expense.

This is a great place! Thanks to all who contribute and to the site owners for providing this gathering place.