Westinghouse IQ Drive - Have I gone too far?

[JPW1]

I live in Houston, TX and will be purchasing a new HVAC system. I've been doing a considerable amount of research and continue to learn more as I move forward. I certainly appreciate the importance of a quality installation and I feel I'm fortunate in my area to have a few that I think will do a good job.

I was pretty much sold on purchasing a 2-stage / variable speed blower since it seemed to do so well with controlling humidity. However, then I stumbled on the IQ Drive technology (I specifically saw it from Westinghouse's web site). I certainly recognize this technology is more expensive to install, but it appears to take humidity control and comfort even a step further. The efficiency levels are also very good to give me some savings over the long-term.

So as I look to find out more unbiased opinions online there doesn't seem to be much. I've seen some comment that the design is fairly complicated and that does concern me. I've also never seen any of these units installed in the US yet, but they appear to be very popular overseas due to high energy costs. So what do you think? Has anyone installed these and can comment on them? Does anyone perhaps have one in their home and can comment on their experience? Have I just "gone too far" when considering the equipment and should I just stay with something more popular here in the states?

[Texas-Tech]

We installed 3 IQ systems last year, all Maytag and all in the same house. My opinion is the principal is a good one, the units are very different from the "normal" high efficiency one we have been installing. My only complaint is the quality of the construction of the units themselves. They just looked cheaply made to me.

[JPW1]

We installed 3 IQ systems last year, all Maytag and all in the same house. My opinion is the principal is a good one, the units are very different from the "normal" high efficiency one we have been installing. My only complaint is the quality of the construction of the units themselves. They just looked cheaply made to me.

Thanks. That is a little concerning regarding the quality since I think Maytag and Westinghouse are pretty much the same companies.

[JPW1]

I just found this post after a little more searching. After a few comments it appears to go off-topic some, but the early issues described are concerning.

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=634242

[Texas-Tech]

Ya, I remember that discussion, and I'm not gonna badmouth the brands for sure. The one's we installed are in a new home, all foam insulation and limestone rock for outside walls. Different from a normal home by far. Plus they haven't ran for whole summer yet, they're new.

When I work on a high end gas appliance I'd like to see a little more attention to quality construction. I hate to see a unit put together with nothing but 1/4" zip screws.

As far as technology goes the controller on the wall tells you everything you need to know about the system, outdoor temp, compressor temp, rpm the compressor is turning, temps of indoor coil etc. If they're reliable they make sense.

[jkish]

I live in Houston, TX and will be purchasing a new HVAC system. I've been doing a considerable amount of research and continue to learn more as I move forward. I certainly appreciate the importance of a quality installation and I feel I'm fortunate in my area to have a few that I think will do a good job.

I was pretty much sold on purchasing a 2-stage / variable speed blower since it seemed to do so well with controlling humidity. However, then I stumbled on the IQ Drive technology (I specifically saw it from Westinghouse's web site). I certainly recognize this technology is more expensive to install, but it appears to take humidity control and comfort even a step further. The efficiency levels are also very good to give me some savings over the long-term.

So as I look to find out more unbiased opinions online there doesn't seem to be much. I've seen some comment that the design is fairly complicated and that does concern me. I've also never seen any of these units installed in the US yet, but they appear to be very popular overseas due to high energy costs. So what do you think? Has anyone installed these and can comment on them? Does anyone perhaps have one in their home and can comment on their experience? Have I just "gone too far" when considering the equipment and should I just stay with something more popular here in the states?

Word is that Carrier is coming out with a inverter based heat pump in the next few months if you can wait that long.

[energy star]

I hope the R&D dept at Trane is not far behind.

[teddy bear]

I live in Houston, TX
I was pretty much sold on purchasing a 2-stage / variable speed blower since it seemed to do so well with controlling humidity. However, then I stumbled on the IQ Drive technology (I specifically saw it from Westinghouse's web site). I certainly recognize this technology is more expensive to install, but it appears to take humidity control and comfort even a step further. The efficiency levels are also very good to give me some savings over the long-term.
more popular here in the states?

Get this humidity control thing in writing. When the outside dew point is +65^F and the outdoor ambient to low make the a/c operate a good portion of the day, you will not get adequate dehumidification to maintain <50%RH with normal moisture loads from normal fresh air infiltration and occupants. While the multispeed systems do better than simple a/cs, there need to be enough cooling load to make the a/c operate for many hours. It's a sad story. The dehumidification load from occupants and enough fresh air to purge the pollutants in a home amounts to 2-4 lbs. per hour. This is 1-2 tons of cooling load every hour. If there in no cooling load for 24 hours there no dehumidification. I know the pitch is that the a/c will operate on low over cooling the home to remove the moisture. When outside temperature are low than 80^F, there is not enough cooling load to get the moisture down the drain. During cool rainy weather, no cool load and high dew points. Your home will be damp until the a/c cools the home. With no cooling load this happens real quick. It takes a dehumidifier that will remove 2-4 lbs. per hour if you want a dry home during cool wet weather. A good simple a/c and a whole house dehu will not cost more but will keep your home drier.
Keep us posted on how good this all works.
Regards TB

[emcontrols]

The only bad thing about IQ drives are if they fail out of warranty, holy moly there half the cost of a new unit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:oops:

[commerce48]

We installed 3 IQ systems last year, all Maytag and all in the same house. My opinion is the principal is a good one, the units are very different from the "normal" high efficiency one we have been installing. My only complaint is the quality of the construction of the units themselves. They just looked cheaply made to me.

Three in one house? How big is it?

To the OP, Carrier is introducing a similar model later this year. Don't know that it will be better, but the company is stronger and much bigger. Which should equal better and wider training. The issue with the IQ is finding someone to service them.

You can also get the same tech in various mini-splits and they are incredibly complicated (maybe sophisticated is a better term) yet reliable.

[classical]

JP I am a Maytag dealer and went through the IQ training, my main problem is the units are cheaply built as Texas Tech said; also their warranty is backed or was backed by Equigard which went into bankruptcy. Another concern is poor quality factory tech support.

My major concern for our market is the way it approaches cooling, my understanding is the unit starts out at peak capacity 113% of rated capacity (54,000 BTU's largest unit) until the home is cooled to within 1 degree of set point then drops capacity to lower humidity. This is how they achieve higher SEER ratings than other products.

I have also heard that Lennox and Carrier are coming out with Inverter system but I would not want to be the first to install one.
I do not see the technology cost for these systems or the Lennox Sunsource solar panels being worth the investment yet. Believe me if I did it would be on my house and it is not.

[JPW1]

Thanks everyone. All the comments have helped me a great deal and I was really on the fence initially anyway since it felt like I might be an early adopter in the states for this technology and that isn't always a good thing.

The high cost of repair, low quality concerns, and the reality of just how much moisture control can be provided has steered me back to systems a bit more popular here in the states (i.e. 2 - stage / variable speed blower). Thanks again.

[commerce48]

Thanks everyone. All the comments have helped me a great deal and I was really on the fence initially anyway since it felt like I might be an early adopter in the states for this technology and that isn't always a good thing.

The high cost of repair, low quality concerns, and the reality of just how much moisture control can be provided has steered me back to systems a bit more popular here in the states (i.e. 2 - stage / variable speed blower). Thanks again.

You are likely doing the right thing for you. However, the 10/12 year warranty is probably the best in the business. That may not help if you can't find a qualified service person.

[teddy bear]

The high cost of repair, low quality concerns, and the reality of just how much moisture control can be provided has steered me back to systems a bit more popular here in the states (i.e. 2 - stage / variable speed blower). Thanks again.

Remember as the outside high temps decline and approach the moderate outside dew points in the 65^F-70^F range, the sensible cooling load declines to near zero while the latent load remains at 3,000-5,000 btus per hour. The most tricked up multispeed a/c removes 65% sensible/35% latent. This means we have 8,000 btus of sensible cooling load per hour to remove 4 lbs. of moisture per hour. Plus we are attempting to do this with 2 ton a/c with a 4 ton cooling coil. The cooling coil is retain 4-5 lbs. of moisture on the coil at the end of the cooling cycle. The moisture on the coiling coil slowly re-evaporates back into the home, while the occupants are adding moisture and outside air is infiltrating or being ventilated into the home. When you are getting a fresh air change in 5-6 hours with several occupants adding moisture plus the 4 lbs. of moisture on the coil, providing <50%RH is difficult.
Adding a 4 lbs.per hour dehumidifier solves the problem with or without a complicated a/c.
Regards TB

[JPW1]

Thanks teddy bear. I realize the 2 - stage / variable speed blower isn't a definitive solution for humidity, but my thought was that this system seems to be the best choice for doing at least some humidity control and just a good start. If I find it isn't enough I could always add a dehumidifer later on...right?

This is assuming a 2 - stage / variable speed blower coupled with a dehumidifier seems like it would be a better overall solution than just about anything else...correct?

[classical]

JP you can add a Humiditrol (supplemental dehumidification) to a Lennox system for a reasonable (not cheap) price.

I will say this the majority of homes I set up with a 2-stage variable speed system that is properly sized has no problem maintaining 48% to 50% RH with a Dew Point below 55 degrees and a temperature set point around 80 degrees most of the year. There are going to be days when no system without supplemental dehumidification will not provide perfect comfort in our climate. Fortunately it works out to around 15 to 20 days a year and it is not that major a problem and for most people it is not worth the extra K to address it.

My house has a 2-stage Lennox installed in 2002 and I have yet to add a dehumidifier and it would not be that big a cost for I have just not felt the pain enough for the expense.

[teddy bear]

Thanks teddy bear. I realize the 2 - stage / variable speed blower isn't a definitive solution for humidity, but my thought was that this system seems to be the best choice for doing at least some humidity control and just a good start. If I find it isn't enough I could always add a dehumidifer later on...right?

This is assuming a 2 - stage / variable speed blower coupled with a dehumidifier seems like it would be a better overall solution than just about anything else...correct?

Yes you can always add dehumidifier. Typically, homes are not getting a proper fresh air change during the spring/summer/fall calm weather. The lack of fresh air decreases the moisture load on the home. If you want the ideal indoor invirionment with good air change and <50%RH, the days of high humidity increase dramatically. On average maybe acceptable? But during the occasional longer damp cool spells, you may end up with musty odors and dust mites. A conventional a/c and a small whole house dehumdifier cost a little more than a two speed a/c. A better value, I think. In homes that have basements or coastal locations, the dehu provides <50%RH with low/no cooling loads. When the home is unoccupied, you can turn off the a/c. The dehu maintains <50%RH at a fraction of operating cost of a/c.
Keep us posted on your results.
Regards TB

[marko1]

a dedicated aprilaire ducted dehu is awsome. keeps ac from running under mild conditions. on some days especcially in the am . I did the iaq training and wont ever install one.

[teddy bear]

JP you can add a Humiditrol (supplemental dehumidification) to a Lennox system for a reasonable (not cheap) price.

I will say this the majority of homes I set up with a 2-stage variable speed system that is properly sized has no problem maintaining 48% to 50% RH with a Dew Point below 55 degrees and a temperature set point around 80 degrees most of the year. There are going to be days when no system without supplemental dehumidification will not provide perfect comfort in our climate. Fortunately it works out to around 15 to 20 days a year and it is not that major a problem and for most people it is not worth the extra K to address it.

My house has a 2-stage Lennox installed in 2002 and I have yet to add a dehumidifier and it would not be that big a cost for I have just not felt the pain enough for the expense.

I would like to share a thought with you.
We all recognise the effect of infiltration of dry outside air in the winter. Without enough fresh dry infiltration, the home is wet and the windows sweat. As we increase the amount of dry air infiltration/ventilation the indoor dew point decreases to the point where indoor humidity lowers, windows stop showing condensation. A 2,500 sqft. home with 2 adults with a a minimal air change in 5-6 hours will have +10^F indoor dew point. 4 occupants will raise the indoor dew point+15^F- all these are approximate. From the humidity level in the home, we get a feel for the amount of fresh air entering a home when the stack effect and wind pressure is high which makes the home breathe.
During summer weather, the problem flips. The stack and wind natural pressure declines. The home's natural infiltration declines to a fraction of the winter infiltration. An air change in 5-6 when occupied is the minimum amout of fresh air to pruge indoor pollutants winter or summer.

By observing the indoor dew points when the a/c is not removing moisture, we can also get a feel for the amount of fresh air entering the home. A fresh air change in 5-6 hours changes the indoor dew point to the outside dew point plus the moisture from the occupants would expect indoor/outdoor being similar dew points. An empty home that maintains low dew point when outdoor dew points are high indicates very minor amounts of fresh air are enter the home.

Homes with the a/c removing 3-7 lbs. per hour of moisture that have high indoor dew points are getting excess fresh air. An adult adds .5 lbs. of moisture to the air in the home. My point is that adequate fresh during calm warm weather in many is very low and inadequate to pruge indoor pollutants and do not raise the indoor point very quickly. I can understand why the a/c industry as insisted on air tight construction. Without the ability to deal with the occasional high dew points, fresh air is avoided. The modern healthy home with supporting mechanicals needs controls that will supply the fresh air when need to support occupancy and the natural infiltration is inadequate. In addition humidification or dehumidification should be in part of the system to provide comfort and the best of indoor air quality. As we monitor moisture sand CO2 levels, it becomes obvious that the amount of natural fresh air entering our homes varies from excess to totally inadequate. So the indoor dew point is the outdoor dew point +- the amount of moisture we add or remove. The range is adding 4 lbs. (winter extreme cold/wind), upto removing 6 lbs./hr during windy summer high dew point weather. Our challenge is provide simple inexpensive system that will add minmal fresh air when needed and add/remove moisture as needed.
Appreciate you patience and recognise your concern for good solutions.
Regards TB

[JadedAllWayz]

well whaddaya know

[teddy bear]

Yes you can always add dehumidifier. Typically, homes are not getting a proper fresh air change during the spring/summer/fall calm weather. The lack of fresh air decreases the moisture load on the home. If you want the ideal indoor invirionment with good air change and <50%RH, the days of high humidity increase dramatically. On average maybe acceptable? But during the occasional longer damp cool spells, you may end up with musty odors and dust mites. A conventional a/c and a small whole house dehumdifier cost a little more than a two speed a/c. A better value, I think. In homes that have basements or coastal locations, the dehu provides <50%RH with low/no cooling loads. When the home is unoccupied, you can turn off the a/c. The dehu maintains <50%RH at a fraction of operating cost of a/c.
Keep us posted on your results.
Regards TB

I finally got my data logging up and running.
75-100 cfm of Fresh Make-up Air Ventilation with/without dehumidification--No cooling load.
Cape Coral Fl 1----2/9/10 ^F Outside temp, ^F Inside Temp, ^F Outside Dew Point, ^F Inside Dew Point, %RH Inside.
This is a week of no cooling loads with typical outdoor temps/dew points for Feb. We are below normal for rain. Dehumidification "on" until 2/6. "Off" last two days. Dew point inside is lower than outside when dehumidifier is on. Dew point inside is higher inside than outside when the dehumidifier is off. Two adults in the home. The house much more comfortable with low humidity. No dehumidification is needed with <55^F outdoor dew points, +.2 ach fresh air ventilation and +70^F inside temps. This is illistrated the last 2 days.
Check out the PDF for real data. Interesting. At the tail end you see the drying effect of dry outside air. Fresh air ventilation/infiltration needs dehumifiication when +55^F and dries the home when <50^F dew pint. When outside dew point less than 30^F, humidification would be comfortable.
Regards TB

[Some Dude]

I live in Houston, TX and will be purchasing a new HVAC system. I've been doing a considerable amount of research and continue to learn more as I move forward. I certainly appreciate the importance of a quality installation and I feel I'm fortunate in my area to have a few that I think will do a good job.

I was pretty much sold on purchasing a 2-stage / variable speed blower since it seemed to do so well with controlling humidity. However, then I stumbled on the IQ Drive technology (I specifically saw it from Westinghouse's web site). I certainly recognize this technology is more expensive to install, but it appears to take humidity control and comfort even a step further. The efficiency levels are also very good to give me some savings over the long-term.

So as I look to find out more unbiased opinions online there doesn't seem to be much. I've seen some comment that the design is fairly complicated and that does concern me. I've also never seen any of these units installed in the US yet, but they appear to be very popular overseas due to high energy costs. So what do you think? Has anyone installed these and can comment on them? Does anyone perhaps have one in their home and can comment on their experience? Have I just "gone too far" when considering the equipment and should I just stay with something more popular here in the states?

The customers ive installed the iq system for absolutely flipped, they couldnt be happier.

[Shophound]

If I lived in Houston, my money would go into a tightly built house with a ventilating dehumidifier and a quiet, single stage a/c unit. The inverter driven systems are very interesting but for the money I couldn't justify it since I'd have this other strategy up my sleeve. The tight house aspect is a passive strategy, meaning there's nothing to break down or go out of warranty that could leave you miserable in the middle of a hot muggy summer. The ventilating dehumidifier gives you fresh air at controlled intervals and also brings infiltration into your home through a controlled source vs. willy nilly through construction materials. It can also extend the deadband where you don't need a/c when others around you are running it because they feel sticky, although not necessarily too warm inside their homes.