Buy units myself ?

[detroit_pierogi]

I have done some poking around on the internet, and it seems to me that, if I know the specs of the products that I am looking for, and I can get the right warranties, one option would be to buy the hvac units from an online company, and then pay someone to install them.

Other than the risk associated with buying things online, what other potential downside would there be with this plan ?

[Lifer]

Go to the manufactures web site and read their warranty the warranty states no warranty for goods purchased over the internet.

[Shophound]

Originally posted by detroit_pierogi
I have done some poking around on the internet, and it seems to me that, if I know the specs of the products that I am looking for, and I can get the right warranties, one option would be to buy the hvac units from an online company, and then pay someone to install them.

Other than the risk associated with buying things online, what other potential downside would there be with this plan ?

Other than what Lifer said, you run the risk of incorrectly choosing your equipment, even if you think you "know the specs of the product" you are looking for. Online equipment sellers aren't all that interested that you choose the right equipment. They're interested in moving boxes, period. If you happen to pick the right stuff for your house, it's an ace in your pocket, but it's still a crapshoot unless you're trained to size equipment properly for a house.

You also may have a hard time getting a reputable contractor to install equipment they did not sell you. Sure, there's somebody out there who will be glad to put your stuff in, but can you trust them? It's not THEIR equipment they are placing their company name on to stand behind, so what motivation do they have to ensure YOUR equipment is installed right? They also may not offer you a warranty, or if they do, it may well be a taillight warranty. That's the kind that's good until his taillights disappear from the foot of your driveway.

[tinner73]

you will have a problem finding someone to install for you. if you do find someone dumb enough to do the install and they go to fire up your A/C and it doesn't work, comes up DOA (it happens), then what? you're still gonna pay for the install..right? you will have ZERO warranty.

[Lifer]

I went to one of the sites and they refered me to my company as a contractor that would install their units. I sent them an e-mail and thanked them for the thought of confidence but I asked them to take me off their site and they did.

[detroit_pierogi]

OK. I hear what you are saying.

What if I say to a guy "I know that you are not making money off of the products, so throw an extra $ X on the installation."

You guys sound like you either work as one man shows or with a few other guys. Most of the companies that certain local resources say are reputable are gigantic - 50 - 100 employees. The sales guys are separated from the installation guys, who are separated from the service guys. I know that none of these big shops are going to do anything like this.

If I find a smaller shop or a one man show and make it worth his while, and I make sure that I don't get hustled on a manufacturer's warranty, is it still such a bad idea ?

[Shophound]

What if I say to a guy "I know that you are not making money off of the products, so throw an extra $ X on the installation."


If the manufacturer won't honor the warranty due to internet sales, where's your gain if you pay the installer extra dough? Where have you really saved any money at all if you're willing to do this?

Can you see how this can run away from you? You try to save money by purchasing the equipment yourself. You then receive machinery with no warranty. You manage to find an installer, who balks until you sweeten the kitty to his liking. He then installs the stuff and takes a hike. You later have a problem and call the guy. You then find that a) he's no longer in business since he was only a fly-by-night hack or a moonlighting tech that got busted by his boss and canned, or b) he finds himself devoid of motivation to respond to your request since he didn't sell you the stuff, or c) he always seems too busy to return your calls.

Add to this, he didn't do that great of an install, so your system costs more to run than it would had it been put in and set up properly.

Where have you saved any money??

[Hroper]

in DEE troy it , you should find someone to put it in "u" for about 15 bucks an hour, watch out , shoudn,t take but about 2 hours.

[AllTemp]

Originally posted by detroit_pierogi
OK. I hear what you are saying.



You guys sound like you either work as one man shows or with a few other guys. Most of the companies that certain local resources say are reputable are gigantic - 50 - 100 employees.


Detroit, facts are large shops as you already figured out have salesmen to pay, insallers to pay and office over head.

Large doesn't mean reputable it means expensive, jsut a fact!

But even finding an independent contractor willing to take the profit margin out of the job to install customer purchased equipment is going to be difficult.

Most likely you will be responsible for all warranty,labor, ect. This means is your installing contractors time is money, anyting he does is time $$$$. If you have any start up issues, delays because of malfunctions, you are still going to pay him. And your going to pay him when he rturns after you have gotten repalcement or correct parts.

On the other hand if you find a resonably price contractor that sells you equipment, you'll have 100% parts/labor warranty. If there's problem, guess what you don't pay more the contractor deals with his supplier over the malfunction or wrong parts, ect.

Buying from the internet might save you a few dollars on the purchase but the headache of having to deal with any warranty issues if any makes it logically not worth it.

We install customer parts occassionally and sometimes there are problems, wrong part, bad part... Customers pays us labor and handles warranty .

And as stated on this site verify with the manufacture what their policies are on warranty on equipment bought onthe internet.

My advice is estiamte the cost if you bought and paid to have it installed verses if you hired a contrcaotr to do all this for you. Keeping in mind future warranty service, that 1st year is crucial!

Hope this helps.

http://www.alltemp-hvac.com/impress.gif

[AllTemp]

Originally posted by detroit_pierogi
OK.

If I find a smaller shop or a one man show and make it worth his while, and I make sure that I don't get hustled on a manufacturer's warranty, is it still such a bad idea ?

Manufacture warranty only provides part warranty not labor. Your ired installing contractor will not provide you labor warranty on your parts either. Thats part of the margin in marking up parts (WARRANTY).

In the event you have a hard failure covered under mfg warranty within the 1st year. You sir will be soley responsible for contacting dealer thast sold you the equipment follow their warranty procedures for a repalcement part. If it is a majopr part they may want you to ship the part(s) for verification before they will provide a replacement part. In the meantime you've paid you contactor to come out remove the parts for you, you ship them and you scheudle another chargeable service call to raplace the parts if and when you get this...

ARE YOU GETTING THE PICTURE Detroit?

Read between the lines for meaning of warranty... Many mfg require proof equipment was installed by a licensed certified contractor and that scheduled service/maintenance ahve been provided to keep the warranty in effect.

You just can't buy an air conditioner any more install it and forget it until it dies and expect to use a 10 Year compressor warranty at year 8 if you do not have servie records... Their not giving the equipemnt away.
http://www.alltemp-hvac.com/construct.jpg

[Roncool]

You kind of have balls your asking guys who make a living at this about how to screw them.I am surprised of all of the great replys. Hey what do you do for a living ?

[ct2]

detroit_pierogi


1 How much money do you think an HVAC contractor makes installing a system

2 How much money do you expect to save by buying it on line and having someone install it

3 How much work do you feel actually goes into an installation of a properly designed -properly balanced system

4 What do you feel would be a fair price for a contractor to come out and install your system?

[coolwhip]

Hey Pierogi, go get your online equipment so we can sit back and laugh. The only person you will be able to find to install it is a uninsured, unlicensed hack. Then we can all laugh at the problems you post on the site. In addition, there are various professionals on this site. We have installers, techs, shop owners, engineers, sales reps...you name it. Dont try to insult our intelligence or yours by buying equipment off the net. Remember, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

[bopa]

Issues that have been brought forward are quite legitimate
ie. warranty, quality of install etc.

To alleviate some of your concerns why don't you e-mail
the manufacturer and ask them if you are covered?

Their is one distributor (DESCO) for Goodman who claims that they are an authorized distributor for Goodman, York etc. and your warranty will be honored under certain conditions.

e-mail the manufacturer to see if thier claims are true.

You then can look for a tech who can do the install.

If you are confident and handy you can install a thermostat run the proper wire, have a sheet metal guy fabricate connecting
duct work, get drainage line installed, have proper electrical connections ready, equipment in the proper place, maybe run a lineset.

But before all this spend a few hours reading hte install manual

Is it worth it?

You will have to decide

[coolwhip]

Hey Bopa, This is not a DIY site. Quit being part of the problem. Dont even encourage people to buy internet equipment. Its bad for the most important people involved and that is the customer and the installer. Sheesh, whats the matter with you people?

[supremehvac]

By the time you get done paying inflated prices and shipping you will be saving very little to nothing. You will however get the added bonus of no warranty. And since only hacks will give you a good deal on the installation your going to need that warranty you just lost. I am a one man shop and I would install it for you. I would charge my regular fee minus what I would have paid for the unit. I make the same profit as if I had bought it. But since it would have been less for me to buy it you have now paid more than my other customers would have. And you still don't have a warranty.

[ct2]

If you are confident and handy you can install a thermostat run the proper wire, have a sheet metal guy fabricate connecting
duct work, get drainage line installed, have proper electrical connections ready, equipment in the proper place, maybe run a lineset.

But before all this spend a few hours reading hte install manual


Yea read the manual- and the plumbing code 0---the mechanical code--the building code--the electricial code- manual J - manual D- and your local city and or county codes

Better make sure that sheet metal guy installs the correct size ducting for a properly balanced system or all that effort connecting your drain line putting your equioment in place and maybe running a line set will be a waste

BTW how much money do you think you are going to save by
throwing this together yourself and after you do this installation, what do you expect will be left for the tech to do

[docholiday]

Just in case you were wondering...

Many of the Systems for sale on the internet are by a "dealer" Who paid the same for the system from a wholesaler. It really all started when some dealer had some excess inventory to sell, he listed it and it sold and now he does it full time since he has no responsibility for it and there are plenty of "Suckers" out there. By the time he marks it up, and ships it, you didnt save anything over a local guy who picks the equipment up at the distributor and adds his appropriate mark-up which includes his 1st year labor warranty, insurace, bonding, and expertise. It all sounds good on paper but there really is no savings. And to lose the warranty? How much is that worth?

I personally know of 2 familys that did this and both shared that they wouldnt do it again as they ended up paying slightly more and had the headaches to boot.

[tinknocker service tech]

to think all the training and schooling and semenars and hard knocks on this board. guys that bust thier humps and spend time from thier familys at night and weekends to repair and service and install your systems. imean your units/ when they break and you dont have a clue what to do geee who gets the call. the internet or the poor slob going to bed after a hard day or getting ready to go out to dinner with his family and cant because he has to go repair your system. you have the gull to come here and add insult to injury with this post tell you what next time you need service on new years eve night or 4th of july nid day call the internet. thats why you buy from contractors that stand behind what they do. not from the internet for the cheapscate price and no backing
yea you will find someone to install it hack oe desparate for monie but he wont be there when you need him for free
think about it

[wormy]

Wowch, you guys sure are harsh.

He asked a legitimate question.


Other than the risk associated with buying things online, what other potential downside would there be with this plan ?


He's just as human as we are, heck we complain about gas going up 25 cents. Why shouldn't he try to save money every chance he can?

Here's the best answer I can give to the question.

Although it may seem you are going to save some money by purchasing over the internet and having someone install the equipment for you, you will actually be shooting yourself in the foot.

The first prob is NO WARRANTY (as stated by a whole bunch of other guys here). 'They don't build them like they used to' is a fact in the HVAC industry as well as the car industry. I recommend a 10 year all parts and labor warranty. It will break down, you will definatly want it to be covered. With manufacturers leaning more toward...
quantity over quality and factories moving to Mexico, India, and who knows where... it is hard to get the good old fashioned quality built right in.
By the way, it really makes us feel bad when the customer says... "what do you mean I have a dead compressor, its only 6 years old, my old unit lasted 32 years and didn't give me a moments trouble" then when we look it up, the unit was put in 11 years ago.

Next prob you'll face is...
Lack of a 'good quality contractor' to do the work
It may be really hard to find someone that will install it
right and with a high standard. Even though you are willing to pay the contractor extra to make up for any losses on his end that may incurr such as the loss of profit on the equipment itself, most quality contractors
just will not want to do it.
A quality install is a must. HEad over to the 'Wall of Shame' and you'll get an idea of what kinda mess we see
done by people that 'think they know what they are doing'


Another thing to consider....
I'm assuming you live in Detroit.
I'm not from there, but from what I hear... Unions have
taken over and have really made things a mess.
I heard last week that in one city up north, the plumbers union got to the city board before the hvac tech's union did and got it written into law that 90% effeciency furnaces have to be run in hard plumbing copper (we're talking 3-4" copper) and since they are the only ones approved to braze plumbing copper, they now have job security. Not to mention running it in copper instead of PVC is sky high.


On a side note....
Your home comfort system is going to be the 3rd largest investment in your life. (exclude medical bills since that is not an investment so to speak)
The big three are: house, car, hvac system.
House is obviously expensive.
Some people buy a new car every 3 yrs. (roughly 20,000 or so)
Then there's your home comfort system.

I wished I could give you more reasons why its best to stear clear of trying to purchase you own equipment and putting it in. Every gut instinct I have is yelling
"NO DON'T DO IT.... PLEASE DON'T DO IT"

I think one of the single most reasons the guys before me got so hostile is they have had to fix some of the most awefull stuff you could imagine. And its the ones that got so jack legged in that it was a nighmare to fix.
I have seen plenty of life threatening situations on the count of people doing this stuff that just throw it in.

Here's a story to take with you.
had an instructor at a furnace seminar say that he was up north in chicogo or ny or somewhere up there....
anyways, the day he got there it was front page news that
they were about to open a newly contructed apartment building that would become home to so many hundreds of families.
Few days later, it was plastered across the newspaper that
so many hundred of entire families died as a result of improper furnace installation. The furnaces where in a closet. Hole cut in side of furnace. Filter grill stuck in the door of the closet. Return sucked the fumes from the flue back into the building on every apartment.

After running across enough situations like this,
we techs have a hair pin trigger sometimes.
We'd just soon smack you over the head with a fish by
the mere mention of doing it 'cheap'. We know all to well,
'cheap' now is 'our nighmare later'

I'd hate for you to be like...
3 months after getting someone to install it for 'cheap'
"What do you mean you can't fix it? What do you mean you'll need to yank it all out and start over?"
hehe it could happen

ONe of these days I will have to right a homeowners guide to what to consider when investing in your hvac system.
Untill then, check out the link in my sig line.
It has some good info to get you started in the right direction.

As mentioned by others....
Get several estimates and descriptions on what would be done. We might can help guide you to a better solution.








[Edited by wormy on 04-04-2005 at 09:31 PM]

[Mr Bill]

If I was able to replace an ailing heart with one I bought off ebay I am calling a pro to install it, I guess warranty would not be much of an issue in case of failure.

[tinknocker service tech]

wormy you must be one heck of a sales man
you even sold me
it was a bad day for this post
i spent 9 hours witha helper removing and reinstalling a furnace 90+ and 12 seer condenser 1900 later time and meterial is works properly
guys nieghbor put it in for him at a saveings of 1100
guess he saved a lot
supply houses can be just as bad as the internet sometimes to
sorry for beening so harsh but evena good hack is still a hack and dangerous to

[detroit_pierogi]

Thanks for the good mojo.

I will learn more and come back with more specifics to ask about.

Thanks again.

My name is misleading. I am originally from Detroit, but I live in Atlanta.

[wormy]

Atlanta..... Thats the best 6 flags I've been to.
I've been to the ones in Kentucky and St Loius too.
Just don't stay the night in the hotel across the street.
Man... I wished somebody woulda warned me on that one.
There was stuff growing off the backs of the stuff growing on the carpeted walls. And that stuff had stuff growing off it. Hmmm it might have been carpet. I was scared to get close. We called it a loss and turned our key back in.... no refund of course hehe. this is exactly what happens when you try to save a little. Dad nabbit.


Be sure to consider a variable speed blower.
That'll help with the humidity there in the summer.

You're in a nice spot for a heat pump too.

Plug in some numbers here and see how much it'll save.
http://www.energyright.com/cgi-bin/dtc?tvaparms


Just be sure to have it put in right.
Heat pumps have suffered a major bad reputation simply for
the fact that people didn't put them in right.
If you've ever heard someone say.... "I got a heat pump and it blows nothing but cold air. I stay cold all the time." I gaurantee it wasnt' put in right and the air hasn't been balanced correctly.

[rabadger]

no good lagitimate on line distributer will sell you the unit unless you are CFC certified. It is the law. If you do not believe me call the EPA and ask them what the fine is if you are not EPA CFC certified you purchase a condensing unit and it leaks in transit. You will not save enough money. HVAC equipment gets damaged very easy in shipment. I worked in the wholesale distribution market for over 25 years. I do not know anyone that has ever come out ahead.

You would be better off calling the fire station and police station to find a CFC certified and schooled person that has a business going on his off days trying to add to his income. Let the local codes and business laws of qualifications needed take care of the rest. BUT MAKE SURE THEY DO NOT USE OLD RULE OF THUMB SIZING. IT DOES NOT WORK!

[Edited by rabadger on 04-05-2005 at 12:04 AM]

[retired btc]

Originally posted by rabadger


You would be better off calling the fire station and police station to find a CFC certified and schooled person that has a business going on his off days trying to add to his income.

[Edited by rabadger on 04-05-2005 at 12:04 AM]


I would think that either of these would be considered
Hacks, Just because they have extra time on their hands and learned a bit about HVAC doesn't make them Professionals, They are Professional Firefighters and Police Officers not HVAC.

[AllTemp]

Originally posted by rabadger
no good lagitimate on line distributer will sell you the unit unless you are CFC certified. It is the law. If you do not believe me call the EPA and ask them what the fine is if you are not EPA CFC certified you purchase a condensing unit and it leaks in transit.

[Edited by rabadger on 04-05-2005 at 12:04 AM]

You are grossly mistake there are no EPA regulation that state it is illegal to buy a charged system. Anyone can legally buy a charged condenser... Better know the EPA regulations before you start spewing them out.
http://alltemp-hvac.com/EPA.html