T-stat and Control Wiring Problems

[DoctorRags]

OK, so hoepfully this stays short. I built my house 2 years ago (3,100+ SF) and had a dual fuel system installed. A Manual J was done because it was new construction and needed all the proper permits so I believe everything was sized correctly...equipment and ductwork.

The system specs are:

Zone 1
Heat Pump - Goodman SSZ160361A
Johnson Controls A19ABC-24 installed within the heat pump
Furnace - Goodman GMV950704X (I guess this is the older non-communicating model)
Thermostat - Honeywell TH6220 (after reading I see this isn't a dual fuel t-stat)

Zone 2
Heat Pump - Goodman SSZ160361A
Air Hanlder - Goodman AEPF303616 with 8kW HKR backup kit
Thermostat - Honeywell TH6220

So, during the summer months, my electric bills are very reasonable. However, during the winter I feel like the electric bills are very high, as well as I'm burning lots of propane (about 1,000 gallons per year for the past 2 years). I'm thinking this is because the furnace wasn't converted properly because the flame looks to have too much yellow and should be blue. I know this sounds crazy I've let it go almost 2 years however I've been busy with getting married and a new baby so I let things slip. Anways, back to the HVAC, I have a tech called to come and check over the entire system, however I wanted to make sure I have the correct information when talking with him. I feel the original installers did me wrong with the incorrect t-stats and no fossil fuel kit installed (more to come on this later) to control the sytem.

I've also noticed the last few weeks that my Zone 1 thermostat will say "Heat On", however the heat pump and gas furnace aren't running but the fan is blowing air out the vents. This doesn't seem correct and I'm thinking a result of the wiring.

So, I decided to check the control wiring and see how everything was wired up. Below is a picture of my wiring, which seems to be wrong, from what I've read here and in the install instructions. Again, I'm going to have the tech correct it, but want to make sure he does it correctly and I know what to check on because I've had other issues with my electrician wiring my septic pump and float switches incorrectly. I'm also wondering how you can control a dual fuel system with the wrong stat and no fossil fuel kit.

http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae181/DoctorRags/HVAC/WiringDiagram.jpg

1. To correct this, my tech says he has a Honeywell VisionPro 8000 series that he will install, which looks to be correct, but I'm guessing I'll need to install a different outdoor temp sensor to work with that stat. Is this correct?

2. Or, should I just upgrade to the VisionPro IAQ because I have the variable speed furnace, which I believe the IAQ controls better? I also have a humidifier attached to the system as you can see in the wiring diagram.

3. Does anyone else see anything wrong with my wiring diagram that I should alert the tech to when they come out.

Thanks for the help.

[polon]

help! change termostat for a heat pump,soon as I connect blue wire for W1 I burn out transformer.so I didn'd connect it run,but it not right so help me out please.

[DavyB]

OK, so hoepfully this stays short. I built my house 2 years ago (3,100+ SF) and had a dual fuel system installed. A Manual J was done because it was new construction and needed all the proper permits so I believe everything was sized correctly...equipment and ductwork.

The system specs are:

Zone 1
Heat Pump - Goodman SSZ160361A
Johnson Controls A19ABC-24 installed within the heat pump
Furnace - Goodman GMV950704X (I guess this is the older non-communicating model)
Thermostat - Honeywell TH6220 (after reading I see this isn't a dual fuel t-stat)

Zone 2
Heat Pump - Goodman SSZ160361A
Air Hanlder - Goodman AEPF303616 with 8kW HKR backup kit
Thermostat - Honeywell TH6220

So, during the summer months, my electric bills are very reasonable. However, during the winter I feel like the electric bills are very high, as well as I'm burning lots of propane (about 1,000 gallons per year for the past 2 years). I'm thinking this is because the furnace wasn't converted properly because the flame looks to have too much yellow and should be blue. I know this sounds crazy I've let it go almost 2 years however I've been busy with getting married and a new baby so I let things slip. Anways, back to the HVAC, I have a tech called to come and check over the entire system, however I wanted to make sure I have the correct information when talking with him. I feel the original installers did me wrong with the incorrect t-stats and no fossil fuel kit installed (more to come on this later) to control the sytem.

I've also noticed the last few weeks that my Zone 1 thermostat will say "Heat On", however the heat pump and gas furnace aren't running but the fan is blowing air out the vents. This doesn't seem correct and I'm thinking a result of the wiring.

So, I decided to check the control wiring and see how everything was wired up. Below is a picture of my wiring, which seems to be wrong, from what I've read here and in the install instructions. Again, I'm going to have the tech correct it, but want to make sure he does it correctly and I know what to check on because I've had other issues with my electrician wiring my septic pump and float switches incorrectly. I'm also wondering how you can control a dual fuel system with the wrong stat and no fossil fuel kit.

http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae181/DoctorRags/HVAC/WiringDiagram.jpg

1. To correct this, my tech says he has a Honeywell VisionPro 8000 series that he will install, which looks to be correct, but I'm guessing I'll need to install a different outdoor temp sensor to work with that stat. Is this correct?

2. Or, should I just upgrade to the VisionPro IAQ because I have the variable speed furnace, which I believe the IAQ controls better? I also have a humidifier attached to the system as you can see in the wiring diagram.

3. Does anyone else see anything wrong with my wiring diagram that I should alert the tech to when they come out.

Thanks for the help.

I may look at your schematic but alas you must get your post count up to 15 and apply for pro to get your questions answered. good luck!

[DavyB]

help! change termostat for a heat pump,soon as I connect blue wire for W1 I burn out transformer.so I didn'd connect it run,but it not right so help me out please.

You my friend, should buy stock in 5A fuses and try again. Or, call someone who knows what they are doing. No offense, of course.

[DavyB]

I may look at your schematic but alas you must get your post count up to 15 and apply for pro to get your questions answered. good luck!

The time that you spent on your drawering may have paid for itself if you had called a tech. Hot to common never works.

[FlyersFan]

If you don't have a dual fuel kit on the system, you'll be running the heat pump and the gas furnace at the same time whenever 2nd stage heat is calling. This is the first thing I'd have a tech address.

[Tom Campbell]

Dr Rags -

Of course the tech you have come to the site will be better able to evaluate your options, but I'd be a bit wary of putting all my hopes on the 8000. Yes, it is able to support 3 heat and 2 cool, and although it should be able to control the furnace on its own without a separate fossil fuel kit, it appears to be designed for a 2-stage HP with single stage aux / fossil fuel heat heat. Your heat pump is a single stage unit (SSZ), and my understanding is that it is not possible / a good idea to try to cluge stage 2 of the heat pump to be stage one of the furnace. The programming will make the lockouts and step-ups not work. You will only be able to use your furnace in single stage unless there is an external fossil fuel kit controlling it.

The VisionPro IAQ supports 4H 2C and would be a better choice - you can use single stage HP and 2 stage furnace and have it all controlled by the thermostat.

As for the wiring diagram, I assume the Blue/Pink line on the ODT unit goes to the Y of the Heat Pump? I am a bit concerned that the DFT doesn't go to the W on the furnace (sometimes also labeled W or W1 on the Heat Pump). This is typically what tells the furnace to kick in when the HP goes into defrost mode. Maybe it's set up this way because the HP coils are positioned downstream of the burners inside the furnace, something I understand is a big no-no.

ALL of my recommendations are simply food for thought, not to be taken as expert knowledge. Like you, I read up and try to become educated so I can understand the options my contractor lays in front of me so I can be an informed consumer. The actual analysis and work is done by someone licensed and experienced to do it right.

[Tom Campbell]

Don't thread-jack someone else's thread - you confuse the people who want to help out the original poster!

help! change termostat for a heat pump,soon as I connect blue wire for W1 I burn out transformer.so I didn'd connect it run,but it not right so help me out please.

[Tom Campbell]

The VisionPro IAQ supports 4H 2C and would be a better choice - you can use single stage HP and 2 stage furnace and have it all controlled by the thermostat.

The VP IAQ should also let you get rid of all the extra relays for the humidifier and the need for an extra external thermostat (assuming you buy and install the Honeywell external temp sensor). It's cleaner to have just one unit control it all.

[garya505]

You need a dual-fuel stat for each system.

For system #1 I would use the VisionPro IAQ, and for system #2 I would get the VisionPro 8000 or VisionPro IAQ. Get a C7089U1006 Outdoor Temperature Sensor for each one.

You could also use the White-Rodgers 1F95-1277 or 1F95-1291 (if you need humidity controlled by the stat). The both use an external temperature sensor.

BTW, your current wiring looks like a mess.

[beenthere]

You need a dual-fuel stat for each system.

For system #1 I would use the VisionPro IAQ, and for system #2 I would get the VisionPro 8000 or VisionPro IAQ. Get a C7089U1006 Outdoor Temperature Sensor for each one.

You could also use the White-Rodgers 1F95-1277 or 1F95-1291 (if you need humidity controlled by the stat). The both use an external temperature sensor.

BTW, your current wiring looks like a mess.


Why does he need a dual fuel kit for his non dual fuel system?

He already has an outdoor stat for dual fuel switch over on his dual fuel system.

[garya505]

Why does he need a dual fuel kit for his non dual fuel system?

He already has an outdoor stat for dual fuel switch over on his dual fuel system.

Ya, a cheaper heat pump stat would work on system #2.

On system #1, I just think having the stat do the dual-fuel control is a better set-up. That wiring looks overly complicated.

[DoctorRags]

The time that you spent on your drawering may have paid for itself if you had called a tech. Hot to common never works.

I'm assuming this is directed at me, not sure if it was meant to be a stab or not. As I posted I've already called a tech, but he's doing it as a favor and I'm at his whim when he can show up. He's busy "making a living" as you pros like to call it. Being this is a favor and he has an extra VisionPro 8000 series stat, I wanted to know whether this was the best stat for my system or should I pay money to upgrade. Sounds like an upgrade to the IAQ is preferred.

Also, my time is free and the tech is doing this for free so anything I can do to minimize his trip to my house is probably appreciated by him. My plan is to be able to give him this wiring diagram to maybe expedite his repairs. Sounds like he needs to check all my control wiring and also check the furnace for proper propane conversion.

Tom, I appreicate the comment about the DFT terminal...fortunately this heat pump has never froze up but that's probably because it doesn't seem to run in the colder weather (most likely because of my screwed up wiring). I'm thinking this is why I'm burning so much propane because the furnace runs even when it's high 30's and the heat pump should definitely be running based on the set point of the ODT. I'll make sure he checks this to ensure proper defrost.

As far as my zone 2, sounds like I'll take the VisionPro 8000 series and use it there, and then buy IAQ for Zone 1.

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

I'm assuming this is directed at me, not sure if it was meant to be a stab or not. As I posted I've already called a tech, but he's doing it as a favor and I'm at his whim when he can show up. He's busy "making a living" as you pros like to call it. Being this is a favor and he has an extra VisionPro 8000 series stat, I wanted to know whether this was the best stat for my system or should I pay money to upgrade. Sounds like an upgrade to the IAQ is preferred.

Also, my time is free and the tech is doing this for free so anything I can do to minimize his trip to my house is probably appreciated by him. My plan is to be able to give him this wiring diagram to maybe expedite his repairs. Sounds like he needs to check all my control wiring and also check the furnace for proper propane conversion.

Tom, I appreicate the comment about the DFT terminal...fortunately this heat pump has never froze up but that's probably because it doesn't seem to run in the colder weather (most likely because of my screwed up wiring). I'm thinking this is why I'm burning so much propane because the furnace runs even when it's high 30's and the heat pump should definitely be running based on the set point of the ODT. I'll make sure he checks this to ensure proper defrost.

As far as my zone 2, sounds like I'll take the VisionPro 8000 series and use it there, and then buy IAQ for Zone 1.

So you are asking us to help you help a moonlighter?

[DoctorRags]

No, I'm asking you for your advice that I can give to an HVAC tech that works for a company that is doing a $1,500,000 contract for me. He's doing me a favor and helping me at my house because I am helping feed his family and many others for the year in this slow economy.

[DavyB]

No, I'm asking you for your advice that I can give to an HVAC tech that works for a company that is doing a $1,500,000 contract for me. He's doing me a favor and helping me at my house because I am helping feed his family and many others for the year in this slow economy.

Sorry Mother Teresa M.D. but you've already received more Diy information than most on this site. Hopefully, your tech can figure it out without your elaborate schematics. (that was only a poke.)

[Tom Campbell]

Sorry for a bit of a rant, but I really have to let this out:

There are about 6 or 7 regulars here who turn nearly every post by a non-pro into a personal attack on the original poster. The question hardly matters. Even if they make it clear that they are not DIY'ing, even if they reference having a licensed tech do the work - it always seems to turn into an attack. If the OP is trying to get a second opinion because something smells fishy about what their local tech is recommending, they get attacked for having made a poor choice of contractors. If there is any reference at all to having someone look at their system for no charge, they are attacked as if they were committing adultery with a family member.

This is NOT a DIY site, and I whole-heartedly support the moderators when they point this out to posters who are clearly looking for DIY help. But if regular members don't want to answer a question because they feel the original poster is undermining their industry, then just don't post a reply. No need for the attacks. Maybe someone else will see the question differently and decide to suggest something to answer the poster's question, maybe not. But nothing is gained by piling on someone who has what is a legitimate question.

The Doctor made his last effective post on #13, with a thank you to those who helped and a synopsis of what he decided on. He was done. Every post after that was just a pile on.

(My apologies to BeenThere for this rant. You've been really good about making it clear to DIY'ers that this is not the forum to post their questions. I only wish the regular members would leave the policing to you and your fellow moderators. I don't want to turn this into a rant/reply/rant/reply thread, so I hope you are able to just lock the thread, or even delete my post if you feel it is too aggressive.)

[DoctorRags]

Tom, thanks for the follow up. I agree with what you say, and feel the need to add to it.

I had actually read a lot of other posts on this site prior to deciding to post because from what I could see (and it's pretty evident) the "pros" on this site like to take stabs/pokes at the regular guests. I can understand the no DIY'er stance and I admit I'm a big DIY because I have an engineering background and don't usually settle for the simple answer...I need to know how and why it works like it does. I also second guess many professionals in whatever trade they are in because I've had a lot of people leave a bad taste in my mouth over my 10 years in construction and some of the troubles I went through when building my house. Many people just do what they've always done and don't know about the newer systems and technology, and don't bother to try to learn about it. In the case here, I've learned alot about HVAC control wiring, but have yet to change any wires at my house because I'm waiting for a tech. Anyways, enough about that.

I also found it very funny that if you read the site rules and what happened in this post that there are many conflicts...

Site Rules state..."Please feel free to ask any question relating to HVAC..." and "We welcome questions...", however the first response I got was sorry we can't answer questiosn until you are a pro...this seems contradictory.

Site Rules state..."Any site user that...posts smart-ass comments or requires too much attention of the Moderators will lose their posting privileges either with or without warning." The second respomse I got was quite sarcastic insinuating that my time would have been better spent calling a tech rather than making my elaborate wiring diagram.

Site Rules state..."Please do not ask for step by step instructions on purchasing, installing or repairing your own equipment." I don't think I ever asked for step-by-step on how to correct my wiring. Tom had a great response stating check the DFT terminal...didn't tell me how to correct it but I should have my tech look at it.

All that said, I find all this very comical because I don't let the online world get to me and I expected some of the answers I received. Hopefully this post doesn't merit too much attention by a moderator because that wasn't my intention and I would like to be able to continue posting. I've enjoy reading much of the information that people post and it's taught me alot in the last few weeks I've been waiting for my tech to arrive...unfortunately, I am getting impatient waiting for my free tech to arrive and am almost willing to call someone else.