Setting Aux Heat by time of day?

[Tom Campbell]

Here in the PPL service area of Pennsylvania, the electric company has just instituted a new Time of Use (TOU) pricing policy - 6.108 cents off peak, 7.5 on peak (and that is supposed to include transmission charges too!) That makes the off peak price, even with resistance coils, about the same as oil and even lower than propane (there's no NG in our area). So it got me to thinking:

Since I've been b*tching so much here about defrost noises, why not just set the thermostat to Aux Heat overnight since rates are so low and keep the heat pump from coming on at all? Sure, it's a little more expensive than running the compressor, but at 6.1 cents / Kwh, it's not really more than what my oil-heat neighbors are paying. And aux heat is warmer and more comfortable to the skin in the bathroom when you get in the shower in the morning too.

I was really hoping to use the programmable feature of my Honeywell VisionPRO IAQ to accomplish this automatically, but alas, setting AUX HEAT is not one of the things you can control in the scheduling. I assume it's the same for all the other Heat Pump compatible thermostats out there (Although I'm all ears if anyone has any models that can).
- BTW - The house is pretty big and has 2 zones, each designed identically with a VisionPRO IAQ, Goodman MBVC1600 air handler and GSZC18 compressor. The house is quite well insulated - even at 9 degrees outside the HP alone has been able to keep the house at 70 degrees.

Are there any simple ways to force the system to use Aux Heat only from 10PM to 7AM?

The only thing I've been able to think of, and it seems overly complex, is:

Since I have a thermostat that can use an external sensor for set-point control, would it be possible to use the C7089 Outdoor Sensor (that can be added to the VisionPRO) to simulate the time-base aux heat use?

The approach would be use a small timer with an open/close circuit to in line with the wiring of the C7089 to the VisionPRO controller (I have to extend the connection anyway since the 5 foot lead on the sensor is not long enough). From 10PM to 7:30 AM the circuit would go open, creating infinite resistance (indicating colder than -40F). The rest of the time it would go closed, allowing the sensor to read normally. And of course, it would require entering a set point in the thermostat settings so the outdoor sensor would be incorporated into the calculations.

Alternately, since making the circuit go open might make the thermostat think the sensor was no longer connected, I may need to have it go through a resistor equal to the -30 or -40 temp would create. That's going to be much more difficult.

I really think using the outdoor sensor in this way, while imaginative, is probably not the best way to accomplish this.

I welcome suggestions for better ways to force Aux Heat only from 10PM to 7AM - whether they be for a specific alternate thermostat, a third-party timer my installer can add to the system, or well, whatever.

[kb3ca]

Why don't you just switch your thermostat to"emg heat" at 10pm and back to "heat" at 7am?

[Tom Campbell]

Why don't you just switch your thermostat to"emg heat" at 10pm and back to "heat" at 7am?

For the same reason people buy setback thermostats. Because remembering to change the setting every morning and night is a pain and very likely to be forgotten.

[Tom Campbell]

After a bit more reading, perhaps the easier (somewhat) approach is to look at wiring it like an "Old School" outside balance point thermostat would be set up - except trigger based on a clock instead of an outside thermometer switch?

[garya505]

I like the resistor idea on the outdoor sensor. Just use your timer to short out the resistor in the day time. I believe the resistance tables are available. Looks like about a 50k resistor would do it.

[Tom Campbell]

I like the resistor idea on the outdoor sensor. Just use your timer to short out the resistor in the day time. I believe the resistance tables are available. Looks like about a 50k resistor would do it.

According to the specs -20F is produces 107K, -10F is 80K, so a 100K should do the trick. I'd imagine a 1/2 watt resister would be OK. I guess I could cycle it with a normally open relay running off a 12 volt transformer, and then just put the transformer on a timer. (normally open relay in case the setup fails, it would default to normal operation)

[Southern Mech]

I Am trying to figure out, just cause the power is cheap, why would you want to burn the aux heat, and use 3 times as many kw vs the cheap heatpump?

[jeepgrady]

I Am trying to figure out, just cause the power is cheap, why would you want to burn the aux heat, and use 3 times as many kw vs the cheap heatpump?

I was thinking the same. Running the HP is still much cheaper than the strips.

[garya505]

According to the specs -20F is produces 107K, -10F is 80K, so a 100K should do the trick. I'd imagine a 1/2 watt resister would be OK. I guess I could cycle it with a normally open relay running off a 12 volt transformer, and then just put the transformer on a timer. (normally open relay in case the setup fails, it would default to normal operation)

Ya, 100k would do it. 1/2W is probably gross overkill but would work.

If my Prestige IAQ would work with a wired sensor I might even try it myself.

[SJProwler]

I'm doing the same thing with my Heat Pump on my new system. Off peak is .034 per kwh and on peak is .148 per kwh delivered price. Since I have an iComfort thermostat with my new system I'm using my old programmable as a timer to lock out the HP during on peak. I have to switch the outdoor temp sensor out and resistor in with a relay to fool the system it's below the balance point. Just removing the sensor probably won't work since then the system will just think there isn't one.

[Tom Campbell]

I Am trying to figure out, just cause the power is cheap, why would you want to burn the aux heat, and use 3 times as many kw vs the cheap heatpump?


I was thinking the same. Running the HP is still much cheaper than the strips.

I know. It sounds really stupid doesn't it - like throwing money away.

But my logic 2-fold:

1: Noise: I was stupid and didn't realize how loud the defrost cycle could be - it wasn't even something I considered when buying a heat pump to replace the old one (we bought this house over the summer). But what is done is done. I can still move it further from the bedroom window, but I think even on the far side of the house I will hear it at night. It only bothers me at night - I don't mind it during the day.

2: Comfort: As the outside temp drops below 20, the COP on the heat pump is still great, but the duct air is a bit cool to the skin. My wife doesn't like having to cover up at night - and she doesn't like a cool draft in the bathroom at night or in the morning. And when the compressor does go in to defrost, the duct air is a bit colder than room temp - I hear about it every night! It was important enough that I looked hard at investing in a new oil or propane system like my neighbors' whose homes feel "toasty". Yet when I did the math on the cost to run the resistive coils at the new PPL rate, I found it about the same operating cost as the oil and much lower than the propane. And since it's only overnight, my overall cost to heat is still much lower than my neighbors'.

So yes, I am kind of throwing away money. But if I can make it work I think it will be worth it.

[garya505]

Too bad even the high-end stats don't have a feature like this. Seems like it wouldn't be to difficult to do in software in a stat.

[Tom Campbell]

Ya, 100k would do it. 1/2W is probably gross overkill but would work.

If my Prestige IAQ would work with a wired sensor I might even try it myself.


I'm doing the same thing with my Heat Pump on my new system. Off peak is .034 per kwh and on peak is .148 per kwh delivered price. Since I have an iComfort thermostat with my new system I'm using my old programmable as a timer to lock out the HP during on peak. I have to switch the outdoor temp sensor out and resistor in with a relay to fool the system it's below the balance point. Just removing the sensor probably won't work since then the system will just think there isn't one.

I did a quick test to see what would happen if I tried setting the HW IAQ to think it had an outdoor sensor even though none was attached (infinite resistance) - in hopes that it would just ignore it (setting 342). That would have allowed me to just hook up the resistor on a timer and leave it open other times. No luck. It throws an error 53 and flashes on and off obnoxiously, so I'll have to either use a relay to toggle between 2 different resistors (high temp and low temp) or install an actual HW outdoor sensor and toggle between it and the 100K resistor. It may be another week before I get the time to pick up parts and give it a try.

[SJProwler]

Too bad even the high-end stats don't have a feature like this. Seems like it wouldn't be to difficult to do in software in a stat.

I made that a few other suggestions to the Lennox Tech I spoke with. My sales guy also sent the suggestions to his rep at Lennox only because 5 other customers had the same suggestions. I've also posted them here so hopefully someone in R&D at Lennox will see them. Maybe they will incorporate some of them in the next version of firmware.

There are many utilities out there providing the on-peak/off-peak option now and that was the biggest reason I went with the dual fuel. I run the gas during the day and HP at night. Gas costs me .92 a therm, off peak HP costs .41 a therm at my 25 deg cutout point. Above that it's even cheaper.

[Tom Campbell]

Too bad even the high-end stats don't have a feature like this. Seems like it wouldn't be to difficult to do in software in a stat.

If anyone does know of a thermostat that supports this feature, I'd be up for investing in it. I always prefer to use equipment as it was designed instead of kluging it.

[garya505]

I did a quick test to see what would happen if I tried setting the HW IAQ to think it had an outdoor sensor even though none was attached (infinite resistance) - in hopes that it would just ignore it (setting 342). That would have allowed me to just hook up the resistor on a timer and leave it open other times. No luck. It throws an error 53 and flashes on and off obnoxiously, so I'll have to either use a relay to toggle between 2 different resistors (high temp and low temp) or install an actual HW outdoor sensor and toggle between it and the 100K resistor. It may be another week before I get the time to pick up parts and give it a try.

I thought you would just put the resister in series with the sensor, then short out the resistor when you want the HP to be enabled.

[garya505]

Could probably be done with a stat that has dry contact outputs that can be programmed by time-of-day. :grin2:

[Tom Campbell]

I thought you would just put the resister in series with the sensor, then short out the resistor when you want the HP to be enabled.


Resistors in series are cumulative, so if I use it with the actual sensor it could produce some "off the charts" resistance levels that the t-stat wouldn't recognize - and throw another error.

http://hades.mech.northwestern.edu/index.php/Image:Series_parallel_resistors.gif

Edit - Although now that I think about it, I could do a 25K and 75K in series and short out the 75 when I want to operate in standard mode (25K = 34 degrees)

[garya505]

Resistors in series are cumulative, so it could produce some "off the charts" resistance levels that the t-stat wouldn't recognize - and throw another error. Better to just use a relay that will toggle between the two.

http://hades.mech.northwestern.edu/index.php/Image:Series_parallel_resistors.gif

I guess I didn't explain.

If the switch is used to short the added resistor (i.e. in parallel with the resistor), and the switch closes when you want the HP to be enabled ...

Switch open - HP disabled
When the switch is open, the resistance of the added resistor is added to the reistance of the sensor. That's why I suggested 50k, it keeps you on the chart, at least down to about 0F.

Switch closed - HP enabled
When the switch is closed, there is no added resistance from the resistor, so the only resistance is in the sensor. It's like there is no added resistor there at all.

Of course, switching between the 100k and the sensor would work too, but might require a little more hardware.

[Tom Campbell]

Switch open - HP disabled
When the switch is open, the resistance of the added resistor is added to the reistance of the sensor. That's why I suggested 50k, it keeps you on the chart, at least down to about 0F.

Switch closed - HP enabled
When the switch is closed, there is no added resistance from the resistor, so the only resistance is in the sensor. It's like there is no added resistor there at all.

I understand the logic now. That should work as well.

[carls]

Hook a timer and relay to connect the yellow wire to the white wire out side causing the heat banks to run at the same time as the heatpump. and connect a normaly closed relay connected to the orange to prevent this from summer time heating.

[tedkidd]

How about a space heater for the bedroom?

[BACnet]

Sounds like you need a programmable controller. I'm sure there are guys on the controls board who live in your area and sell such things.

I've got all kinds of crazy things automated at my place and I can view and modify everything over the net. That's probably overkill for you but it's pretty standard stuff for HVAC controls folks.

[garya505]

Sounds like you need a programmable controller. I'm sure there are guys on the controls board who live in your area and sell such things.

I've got all kinds of crazy things automated at my place and I can view and modify everything over the net. That's probably overkill for you but it's pretty standard stuff for HVAC controls folks.

Can you check how much beer you have in the fridge over the net, so you know if you should stop at the store on the way home from work?

[BACnet]

Can you check how much beer you have in the fridge over the net, so you know if you should stop at the store on the way home from work?

That's a trick question, right? There's never enough beer in the fridge- it's always a good idea to buy more on the way home each night! ;)

[Tom Campbell]

Sounds like you need a programmable controller. I'm sure there are guys on the controls board who live in your area and sell such things.

I've got all kinds of crazy things automated at my place and I can view and modify everything over the net. That's probably overkill for you but it's pretty standard stuff for HVAC controls folks.

That's a cool idea about having a custom thermostat solution built - I knew there was a whole industry to support that kind of thing for commercial and home theater stuff. I never considered going that far for my residential interest though.

If there's an over-the-counter residential thermostat that would include the aux heat setting in the 7-day programming, that would do the trick, but so far I can't find one. I just can't see paying $4-500 for a custom built and programmed solution though - for that much I might as well just run in resistance heat all the time for the next 3 years.

Being a computer geek I love automation - my last house had all the lighting tied in with the security and I could control it all by one computer (but not over the net - it was using older tech). I've also done a fair bit of circuit board work in the past - particularly resurrecting old pinball machines that have blown diodes, triacs and all sorts of high and low-voltage circuitry. So I'm not opposed to or scared of having something custom built, I just can't justify the cost in both materials and professional services time.

And so I'll go with the resistor idea in conjunction with a used battery operated programmable thermostat with a dry-contact design (not for the temp aspect, just to open and close the circuit by time of day - cheaper than buying a 120V timer and transformer). Not sure if I'll add a DPDT relay to toggle between resistors or just follow gary's recommendation to short out the high resistor when I want to operate in normal heatpump mode. (Probably the latter to start)

[tedkidd]

Spend $ to move the unit to a location you won't hear it? Buy compressor blanket to muffle noise?

[Tom Campbell]

Spend $ to move the unit to a location you won't hear it? Buy compressor blanket to muffle noise?

I think I'll end up moving it regardless (although as mentioned in the first post of the thread, it's so darned loud I think I'll still hear it at night). It's my wife's comfort that has become the driving force behind this initiative now.

Unless someone can suggest a retail thermostat that allows aux setting in the programming (still the ideal), I'm asking that we put this one to bed. The thread has turned into a DIY/hack/kludge-fest, which was not my intent in posting this in the beginning.