Humidity too low - Need some clarification

[Fallout]

Hi there,

I have a Bryant Evolution and a Bryant Large Bypass Humidifier installed in my house. The Humidifier has been installed on the return. It is tapped into the hot water supply. The humidifier is controlled by the evolution thermostat and turns on every time the furnace turns on. The furnace fan is set to low.

With an outside temperature of approximately 30 i see the following:

- I do not get my humidity above 25%
- If the thermostat is set from 70 to 60 at 8 am, and i come back to check for the current temperature at 2pm, the temp is still @ 64.

I understand, and thats the only thing that two contractors are repeating over and over again, that a bypass humidifier is only working when your furnace is working. I also understand the concept of loss of humidity by heating up cold air and how that can contribute to low humidity if you have a not very tight home.

Is it possible that the house is very well insulated and therefore the furnace is not on long enough per day?
Or does it matter that it is a modern furnace with different heat stages and most of the time the heat stage is maybe just on low?
What do you think what it could be?

[tedkidd]

Why the huge setback?

Why no evolution control?

Those are your first two mistakes. The third is not understanding the "relative" part of relative humidity. Get a psychrometric chart. What does 25%rh at 70 turn into at 60?

[teddy bear]

Operate your humidifier, independent of the furnace. Set your fan to medium speed "on" 24/7 with the humidistat at 35%RH. This will keep your pad wet with water flowing through the humidifier. With medium speed fan, you will have a moderate air flow over the wet pad. You may wish to try high speed "on" for a fan setting to max the air flow through the humidifier.
Also %RH meters are not very accurate at the extreme low %RH. If moisture condenses on a glass full of ice water, your %RH is 25%RH at 70^F. At 60^F the %RH will be 34% RH. Generating sparks from the carpet is too dry. Condensation on the windows is too wet.
Regards TB

[bhahvac]

Sir, you have already given yourself the answers.

1. You can humidify BEST when you are heating. As pointed out, you can add some humiduty during the off cycle, but it may not be enough still.

2. You don't heat much, you have a well insulated home in florida (You might be the only person in Florida actually ADDING Humidity!!)

You could need up to 20 gallons of water per day added to the air in your home to get to your desired 35-45%

[commerce48]

If the thermostat is set from 70 to 60 at 8 am, and i come back to check for the current temperature at 2pm, the temp is still @ 64.

Chances are that your furnace hasn't run during that time and the natural heat loss only took you down to 64.

[commerce48]

Why the huge setback?

To save money.


Why no evolution control?


He has one.

[beenthere]

With no one there, and no heat call. Natural infiltration is lowering your humidity.

Have them set up the Evolution control to humidify without a call for heat. And you should see a big improvement.

[Fallout]

Thanks for all the replies.

Some feedback:
- I live in Michigan
- I use the Evolution control
- I want to save money therefore the larger setback (The local energy provider recommends 55 btw). But i already tested a tiny setback. I changed it to 68 for the duration of one week. No noticeable effect.
- @beenthere: I will try that today. But aside of reading that the efficiency drops significantly operating a bypass humidifier with cold air, the waste of water wouldnt be acceptable to me in that case. But i will try it today.

Well i guess my personal conclusion here is:
- Because the house seems to be somewhat ok insulated, i do not lose a lot of heat, therefore there is not too much call for heat, therefore the humidifier doe not run very long.
- The efficiency of at least this bypass humidifier cant be the best.
I did a test. In 1 Minute, with that winter/summer thing closed 8oz of water run through the humidifier. In 1 minute WITH airstream and heat (after waiting a while to settle for everything), the waste water amount is 6.5oz. So only 1.5oz/heatingminute is being evaporated. Maybe 20%. Not very impressive.

[beenthere]

You can always get a steam humidifier, they are much more efficient as far as water use. But will increase your electric bill by a lot, possibly more then you want to pay.

To increase a 3000 sq ft home from 64°F 25%RH to 70°F 35%RH(excluding infiltration/exfiltration) only requires 4 pounds of water. Which would require your furnace to run for heat for about 36 minutes with that humidifier. But you don't have the heat loss in your house to get that run time. So you either need to let the Evolution control run the humidifier when ever the RH drops, and pay for the water usage. Or use a steam humidifier and pay a much higher electric bill.

I would see about tightening up the house, to lower your infiltration, so that a humidifier doesn't need to run much.

Aprilaire also makes a bypass humidifier that isn't flow through that you could use(won't waste water). But, it won't add hardly any moisture to the air without a call for heat. And probably won't reach the RH you want.

[Fallout]

You are bringing up some interesting points.Here are my questions:

- What are the top three things to look out for regarding infiltration? The windows in this house are all relatively new.

- Whats the type of the Aprilaire non wasting water humidifier? I have my fan on low anyways. A bypass that does'nt waste water might be what i need.

- I already researched steam humidifiers. Dont want to derail the discussion at this point. But i made up a theory: If they are efficient enough they should not run too long to bring the humidity back up and therefore use not a lot of electricity while doing that.

[beenthere]

You are bringing up some interesting points.Here are my questions:

- What are the top three things to look out for regarding infiltration? The windows in this house are all relatively new.

Door seals, attic access panels, basement penetrations(this list is from what is common in my area)

- Whats the type of the Aprilaire non wasting water humidifier? I have my fan on low anyways. A bypass that does'nt waste water might be what i need.

Aprilaire 400

- I already researched steam humidifiers. Dont want to derail the discussion at this point. But i made up a theory: If they are efficient enough they should not run too long to bring the humidity back up and therefore use not a lot of electricity while doing that.

4 pounds of 50°F water will take 1.326 KWs to raise its temp to 212°F and vaporize/evaporate it. So you could end up needing a 12 GPD humidifier(depending on size of house and amount of infiltration). And increasing your electric use by 600 plus KWHs a month.

So you should check to see which will cost more. the waste water, or the electric of a steam humidifier.

[teddy bear]

The major air leakage location is the rim joists and plates. Caulking the plate and foaming out the joist cavity is fairly simple. The next productive is ceiling leaks into attics. Go into a dark attic with the lights on in the home, look for light. Also all plate penetrations in the top wall plates into the attic and can lites through the attic ceiling fixable leaks. Remember, that you need 100 cfm of fresh air leakage in a 2,500 sqft. home to purge indoor pollutants and renew oxygen. You may be leaking 200-300 cfm.
Air flow velocity is critical to evaporating water from the humidifier pad. 1,000 feet per min. will max the evaporation rate from the pad. Normal humidifiers have approx. 3 gphr of water flow. This assures overflow to eliminate any bacterial/mold growth. A bypass humidifier on a system with the fan operating on low-med has very low air flow evaporating a fraction of max.
I suggest a 200 cfm duct fan in the by-pass duct to max the air velocity through the humidifier. Also reduce the water over flow by closing the needle valve to 1 galperhour of overvlow. I would expect 1 lb./hr without heat and the low temperature and 3 lbs/hr when the heat is on. Remember that occupants add moisture at about 1lb. per hr per occupant.
Does a glass of ice water sweat? Do you get sparks from your carpet?
You do not need 35% RH to be healthy. Do not operate bathfans when showering etc. Air drying laundry adds moisture.
If you home is leaking 200 cfm of fresh dry air at 10^F dew point, 2 lbs. of moisture per hour added will raise the indoor dew point to 31^F. At 68^F this is 25%, at 60^F this is 33^F. Windows tend to get condensate on them at the low temps with higher dew points. Avoid condensation on cold surfaces. Usually higher interior dew points, +32^F dew points do not allow severe temp set-backs.
Regards TB

[tedkidd]

+32^F dew points do not allow severe temp set-backs.
Regards TB

In other words, if you want to better manage humidity you can't have such huge temperature swings.

Those temperature swings are not likely to save much money. In some cases they may cost money. Every house is different, using a standardized strategy developed in the 1970's for leaky houses with over sized, inefficient, single stage equipment does not apply to efficient home operation in this century. Setback strategies worked in the dark ages, the equipment and science today makes that approach obsolete. Anybody disagrees, I'd like to see the proof.

I thought I read "Edge" thermostat, must have been a different post.

Carrier makes a water saver humidifier humccwbp2417, might be the same number for bryant. No water waste.

[lgwacbb]

I recently had a Lennox 1600 system with an AprilAire 400a installed. The installers have been out several times to check the humidifier as the icomfort thermostat keeps reading in the neighborhood of 26%. I live in VA and the average temperatures have been just under 30^ for the past month that it's been installed. I keep the house between 67^-60^. My house is old and we've done what we can to stop the leaks and drafts (new door seals, new windows, etc), but the only insulation is what we had blown into the roof - the walls have none. The humidity in the house will rise into the 30s when there's snowfall and humidity outside is high, but drops back down after the weather front has moved on.

The installers come out each time and say that because the pad is only wet a tiny bit at the bottom, then it must be working quite well. The left float has a small amount of water and the right float has plenty, which I take to be an indication that it's functioning. There's no blower so I don't know how to "see" that it's working. They've reseated all the necessary tubes and "checked the wiring" - though I'm not really sure what parts they were checking. I've left the fan set on "recirculate" in case it was wired to only work when the fan was on, but that hasn't changed the humidity. They seem to be at a loss about why it's not changing the humidity in the house and just send a different guy out for each call in hopes one of them might know something the rest don't.

My questions are
1. When I call them back out this week (they always politely tell me to wait a week and call back if it's still not working) is there something I can suggest they check or do?
2. They keep saying "it's working" but I don't know how to know if it is since it doesn't make any noises and has no lights. How can I know if this is the best it can do and was it a total waste of money and I should stop bothering the installers?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

[tipsrfine]

I recently had a Lennox 1600 system with an AprilAire 400a installed. The installers have been out several times to check the humidifier as the icomfort thermostat keeps reading in the neighborhood of 26%. I live in VA and the average temperatures have been just under 30^ for the past month that it's been installed. I keep the house between 67^-60^. My house is old and we've done what we can to stop the leaks and drafts (new door seals, new windows, etc), but the only insulation is what we had blown into the roof - the walls have none. The humidity in the house will rise into the 30s when there's snowfall and humidity outside is high, but drops back down after the weather front has moved on.

The installers come out each time and say that because the pad is only wet a tiny bit at the bottom, then it must be working quite well. The left float has a small amount of water and the right float has plenty, which I take to be an indication that it's functioning. There's no blower so I don't know how to "see" that it's working. They've reseated all the necessary tubes and "checked the wiring" - though I'm not really sure what parts they were checking. I've left the fan set on "recirculate" in case it was wired to only work when the fan was on, but that hasn't changed the humidity. They seem to be at a loss about why it's not changing the humidity in the house and just send a different guy out for each call in hopes one of them might know something the rest don't.

My questions are
1. When I call them back out this week (they always politely tell me to wait a week and call back if it's still not working) is there something I can suggest they check or do?
2. They keep saying "it's working" but I don't know how to know if it is since it doesn't make any noises and has no lights. How can I know if this is the best it can do and was it a total waste of money and I should stop bothering the installers?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

It's best to start your own thread with a new personal question.:hijacked:

[tedkidd]

How leaky is your house?

Your humidifier is like a pump. Imagine you are filling your house with water. The pump only pumps so fast, the flip side is how quickly the water leaks out.

Sure you can get a more powerful humidifier. But you really don't want to add too much water vapor to a leaky house because as that vapor leaks out cracks in your home it cools, condensing back to liquid. Next thing you know you have a moldy, rotting home.

[lgwacbb]

I apologize for the thread hijack. I thought this thread was open to all questions about "low humidity" and "clarification" and didn't realize that the OP was the only one with a question so far on it. I've reposted on a separate thread.

[beenthere]

I recently had a Lennox 1600 system with an AprilAire 400a installed. The installers have been out several times to check the humidifier as the icomfort thermostat keeps reading in the neighborhood of 26%. I live in VA and the average temperatures have been just under 30^ for the past month that it's been installed. I keep the house between 67^-60^. My house is old and we've done what we can to stop the leaks and drafts (new door seals, new windows, etc), but the only insulation is what we had blown into the roof - the walls have none. The humidity in the house will rise into the 30s when there's snowfall and humidity outside is high, but drops back down after the weather front has moved on.

The installers come out each time and say that because the pad is only wet a tiny bit at the bottom, then it must be working quite well. The left float has a small amount of water and the right float has plenty, which I take to be an indication that it's functioning. There's no blower so I don't know how to "see" that it's working. They've reseated all the necessary tubes and "checked the wiring" - though I'm not really sure what parts they were checking. I've left the fan set on "recirculate" in case it was wired to only work when the fan was on, but that hasn't changed the humidity. They seem to be at a loss about why it's not changing the humidity in the house and just send a different guy out for each call in hopes one of them might know something the rest don't.

My questions are
1. When I call them back out this week (they always politely tell me to wait a week and call back if it's still not working) is there something I can suggest they check or do?
2. They keep saying "it's working" but I don't know how to know if it is since it doesn't make any noises and has no lights. How can I know if this is the best it can do and was it a total waste of money and I should stop bothering the installers?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

If the humidity rises when its snowing. Your house still leaks too much for the 400 to be able to humidify it.

[commerce48]

Setback strategies worked in the dark ages, the equipment and science today makes that approach obsolete. Anybody disagrees, I'd like to see the proof.

Basic thermodynamics cannot become obsolete. Did you want the name of a textbook?

There are some recovery issues that potentially cost more. All related to what could be considered a reasonable recovery time (you might be able to make a case for poor ductwork in unconditioned spaces as well if you try hard). Absent that, energy costs are indisputably lower with setback strategies. Lower temperature delta equals lower losses. Period.

How about showing us some proof that it doesn't save money? You are kind of alone on this limb.

[commerce48]

Setback strategies worked in the dark ages, the equipment and science today makes that approach obsolete. Anybody disagrees, I'd like to see the proof.

If you prefer to debate your fellow professionals, post in this thread. (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=713921)

Besides textbooks, you can also read this article. (https://www03.cmhc-schl.gc.ca/catalog/productDetail.cfm?lang=en&cat=45&itm=9&sere=2&start=1&stfl=setback&fr=1295236533628) It will actually give you some useful information if you want to score some points against setback strategies (other than energy savings).

[tedkidd]

Comm, you seem to think setback saves. In fact, you seem emotionally tied to this antiquated approach. Like someone who caulks cracks without measuring before and after, that is pretty wishful, thinking about all the money you are saving but not having any basis. Did leakage go down?

You believe replacing windows cost justifies because it's something you can see? Because the window guy told you you would save?

Have you tested this approach in your own home? How much is it saving you? I'm saying the savings, in the instances that there is any, are insignificant. In some cases it actually costs more in energy and comfort, and recovery requires larger equipment and airflow.

But maybe for your house, particularly if you have a lot of stack leakage, you save a few pennies. Show me the numbers.

[commerce48]

Actually, it is you that appears to have a belief. It is a belief because you cannot prove it. I posted a link to a study, now it is your turn. I'm happy to post basic thermodynamic laws as well if you wish.


In some cases it actually costs more in energy...

Citation or example please.

[tipsrfine]

Actually, it is you that appears to have a belief. It is a belief because you cannot prove it. I posted a link to a study, now it is your turn. I'm happy to post basic thermodynamic laws as well if you wish.



Citation or example please.

Your argument with Ted led me to some great reading on this topic, and that reading seems to support Tedkidds position. Especially with buildings that have higher "thermal mass", and especially buildings with heat pump and electric resistance back-up heat. Reminds me of a store I was called to complaining of "poor heat". Big store with electric heat. Turns out they turned the heat down at night very low, so that all the metal shelves and product was so cold it took all day to get the store up to a decent level of heat. Seems you can pay as you go, or run a tab, but you still end up paying about the same-or more in some cases.

[commerce48]

Your argument with Ted led me to some great reading on this topic, and that reading seems to support Tedkidds position. Especially with buildings that have higher "thermal mass", and especially buildings with heat pump and electric resistance back-up heat. Reminds me of a store I was called to complaining of "poor heat". Big store with electric heat. Turns out they turned the heat down at night very low, so that all the metal shelves and product was so cold it took all day to get the store up to a decent level of heat. Seems you can pay as you go, or run a tab, but you still end up paying about the same-or more in some cases.

That is simply an example of unacceptable recovery time, not an example of not saving energy. Thermal mass is a red herring and does not change the equation. All structures have thermal mass, and there is nothing about a small thermal mass that means it will save energy with setback strategies and a large thermal mass will not.

I'm assuming you didn't read the article I linked. If you really want to move this debate to this thread rather than one dedicated to the subject, here is a post from that thread (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=713921):


Q = SA x delta-t / R does not lie.

The lower the delta-t, the lower the heat loss.

On a daily basis the heating system must run enough to offset heat loss. (energy required for recovery = energy saved as house drops to setback setpoint, never more. The reduced delta-t during setback periods results in lower heat loss)

[tipsrfine]

That is simply an example of unacceptable recovery time, not an example of not saving energy. Thermal mass is a red herring and does not change the equation. All structures have thermal mass, and there is nothing about a small thermal mass that means it will save energy with setback strategies and a large thermal mass will not.

I'm assuming you didn't read the article I linked. If you really want to move this debate to this thread rather than one dedicated to the subject, here is a post from that thread (http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=713921):

I think your're right about that other thread being the best place for setback talk.

[tedkidd]

Good try Tips. Clearly a significant mental blockage. Thermal mass is a concept well beyond his ability to comprehend just yet, so he relies too heavily on irrelevant mathematic calculations. But over time he seems to get these things.

Those calcs are good for load, for seasonal loss, but they don't apply to setting back a few degrees on a daily basis. They don't calculate the air temperature you need to comfortably sit in a 60 degree couch vs the air temperature needed to sit comfortably in a 68 degree couch. Since comfort drives thermostat settings, these subtleties MATTER. They matter a lot.

This is the problem with only being able to see the scientific side, you only see half the picture. Sorry it doesn't fit nicely into your scientific box. You sometimes have a tendency to get stuck on minute irrelevancies, like whether a furnace is rated 95% or 96%. Stretch your mind.

Lookit, you need to provide comfort and control, large setback removes both. Those calculations don't translate to comfort or control. They don't recognize the disadvantage of ramping to full throttle.

Put another way, you drive to California driving part of the way at 70, part of the way at 50 and I drive 65 the whole time. You hit full throttle every time you go to 70, and the brakes when you drop to 50. We get there at the same time, but I get there a lot more efficiently and comfortably.

[maintmanjay]

Why does he need a humidifier at all? Because he has holes in his house.... unless he lives alone, eats out all the time, and takes a shower at his mother's, he should have plenty of humidity in a well-sealed house. Dry air in = moist air out.

[commerce48]

hose calcs are good for load, for seasonal loss, but they don't apply to setting back a few degrees on a daily basis. They don't calculate the air temperature you need to comfortably sit in a 60 degree couch vs the air temperature needed to sit comfortably in a 68 degree couch. Since comfort drives thermostat settings, these subtleties MATTER. They matter a lot.

OK, so you've bailed on the energy argument (quite rationally), and are now talking comfort. Fine. A manual setback and recovery will have just the effect you describe. Indeed an archaic strategy. So you are actually talking about time for recovery, and entering a conditioned space before it has recovered.

That is where programmable thermostats come in handy. Set appropriately, the couch (walls etc.) will in fact be 68 degrees when you return.

Just make up your mind what you are debating. Energy savings or comfort. The two are not mutually incompatible, but stating that setbacks do not save energy is like saying that water is not wet.

[tedkidd]

Ok, so you are going to setback for 8 hours a day to save money. Oh, wait, can only set back for 4 hours or the furniture will be cold.

Oh yeah, the house doesn't suddenly become 60 when it sets back, that takes some time. So the house may actually hit 60 for 15 minutes a day. Are you factoring that into your neat little boxlike mathematic "thermodynamic" equations?

I dont see any numbers supporting your bunk. Show me a house, and what setback saves the homeowners. Show me how you calculate these mythical savings.

Oh yeah, that duct work that is so efficient delivering up to 800 cfm chokes at 1200, but lets force high stage for extended periods "because it saves money". Ramping equipment up and down saves energy, that's why you drive between 50 and 70 on the highway instead of cruise at 60. That's a brilliant strategy.

Energy savings is completely dependent on comfort you nitwit. Otherwise, set your house at 50 and leave it. People want to be comfortable and efficient, the two are not mutually exclusive.

Oversized equipment is wasteful, geothermal is driving that message. Discussions about doing away with setback as a recommended strategy is occuring, and as houses tighten up and heating the homes air becomes less significant relative to its thermal mass. Think about it, reduce energy consumption 50% does mass change? No. Does equipment size needed? Yes! If you have smaller equipment, what happens to recovery? Does the efficient house even lose much temperature with short setback periods? No. But entrenched antiquated ways of thinking take time to change.

I get the energy use of every home I go to. I've seen hundreds of energy bills, interviewed homeowners who do and dont use agressive setbacks, and have been unable to differentiate any savings between those who do and those who dont use setback. I am surprised how much people spend to freeze their butts off. None track usage to see what freezing "saves" them.

How many energy bills have you seen? You clearly have difficulty taking concepts outside simplistic numeric understanding, relying heavily on equations that represent a very small part of the overall picture. The answers are not 100% practical nor 100% theoretical, it's a combination of both. I think you have no practical experience to back anything you talk about, and sometimes it really shows.

[commerce48]

"Nitwit"?

Might I ask once again for any citation backing up what you are saying? I've done so. Presumably your analysis of hundreds of bills also include comparison of actual heating degree days? And you can post both for us?

Hundreds if not thousands of energy auditors, utility companies, and state and federal authorities recommend setbacks to save energy. Since that is congruent with the laws of physics, I'm going to have to go with the facts, not opinion. Exactly what is the purpose of programmable thermostats? All of those manufacturers are wrong as well I suppose, for perpetuating the myth that saving energy saves energy?

[teddy bear]

Why does he need a humidifier at all? Because he has holes in his house.... unless he lives alone, eats out all the time, and takes a shower at his mother's, he should have plenty of humidity in a well-sealed house. Dry air in = moist air out.

The facts are on your side with high density occupancy or under ventilated air tigh homes, but with most houses of size with 1-3 occupants and a healthy fresh air change, added moisture may make you more comfortable.
Here are some facts:
Lets use a 1,000 sqft. per occupant and an outdoor dew point of 10^F for this example.
1,000 sqft. with 9' ceilings =9,000 ft^3 of space
A minimal healthy air change rate to purge indoor pollutants and renew oxygen in most cases is an air change in 5-6 hours = 30 cubic feet per minute (CFM) of air change.
If one occupant generates about .5 lb. of moisture per hour with typical activities, we can calculated the humidifying effect on the 30 cfm fresh 10^F dew point air.
.5 lb. per hour of moisture mixed with 30 cfm raises the dew point from 10^F DP to 39^F DP or 34%RH at 68^F. This is a 29^F rise in dew point. If the home is unoccupied 50% of the day, expect reduced humidification.
This is a rough guide you could use.
Two occupants in a 4,000 sqft. house with a 50% occupancy need 1 lb./hour of humidification because only .5 occupants/1,000 sqft. and 1 lb./hour when the home is unoccupied.

As the home have more occupants/1,000 sqft., additional fresh air is needed to remove excess moisture.
Most home leak more than 30 cfm per 1,000 sqft of home during cold windy weather. During mild calm weather, most home leak far less than 30 cfm per 1,000 sqft. during calm warm and need supplemental fresh air ventilation to purge indoor pollutants and renew oxygen.
While during cold weather, 68^F, 34%RH may be considered ideal, during warm weather, 75^F, <50%RH (55^F dew point) is condsidered ideal.
The above logic is used to determine the effect of high outdoor dew points and moisture adding occupants. As we close the windows during the cooling season, the moisture from the occupants is added to the infiltration/ventilation air. Quickly, we end up with the need for dehumidficiation of 3-4 lbs. per hour. to maintain <50%RH. During high cooling loads, a properly set-up a/c will remove the moisture. During low/no cooling loads a good whole house dehumidifier will maintain <50%RH.
It is possible to need a humidifier in an air tight home during the coldest weather, mechanical fresh air ventilation during warm calm weather, and dehumidification during all but the cold months. A whole house ventilating dehumidifier like Ultra-Aire/Honeywell/RHeem etc combined with a properly sized humidifier will provide the ideal comfort and best indoor air quality possibe.
Regards TB

[tedkidd]

Yeah comm, the government is a real up to date place to get energy savings advice. And following a 30 year old "rule of thumb" strategy is sheer brilliance. There has been no changes to technology, nor to our understanding of building science in that time.

That others parrot bad information and follow bad strategies blindly, and that you are one of that pack is not surprising to anyone here. You seem able to only see black or white, thinking for yourself clearly is not innate.

How much is you "at least 8 degree" setback strategy saving you? Oh, not keeping track? Just blindly believing?

I took two minutes to find the link below, I'm sure there is a ton more on the subject for those interested in looking. This simple explanation may be over your head, but it'll probably help others:

http://www.geojerry.com/thermostat.html

[tipsrfine]

Yeah comm, the government is a real up to date place to get energy savings advice. And following a 30 year old "rule of thumb" strategy is sheer brilliance. There has been no changes to technology, nor to our understanding of building science in that time.

That others parrot bad information and follow bad strategies blindly, and that you are one of that pack is not surprising to anyone here. You seem able to only see black or white, thinking for yourself clearly is not innate.

How much is you "at least 8 degree" setback strategy saving you? Oh, not keeping track? Just blindly believing?

I took two minutes to find the link below, I'm sure there is a ton more on the subject for those interested in looking. This simple explanation may be over your head, but it'll probably help others:

http://www.geojerry.com/thermostat.html

Hey tedkidd, commerce already acknowledged setbacks are not good with air or ground source heatpumps. I've spent considerable time looking for studies on this matter and they only one I've found is that Canadian one on 2 identical houses that indicates savings from setbacks. But these houses were R-2000 houses with no furniture in the homes and furnaces that were 50% oversized. I did read references to another similar experiment that indicated little or no savings from setbacks, but havn't been able to zero in on anything about that study.

[tedkidd]

Tips, Help me out with this:

Over sized equipment will benefit from setback, not because less energy is lost to the outdoors, but because the equipment will have enough load to run long enough to be efficient.

Firstly, I'm not talking about setting back to 60 when it's 62 outside, I'm talking about setting back for those of us who have real heating seasons. My house is losing heat all season irrespective of my indoor setting, not just on some days.

I have a TDI Sportwagen. If I drive it 5 miles on the highway I get 22 mpg. If I drive it 100 miles I get 42 mpg. An over-sized furnace may get 22 or 42 depending on how long you run it. Setback will allow it to run long and get 42, so of course it will save. But that's a function of tricking a bad design to be good, not of good design. With modern multi-stage equipment and proper design you have long runtime irrespective of setback, so that gain goes away. Really, I save my customers 30-70 percent on their energy bills - see my blog. They no longer freeze, they no longer fiddle.

The next part of this discussion is durability, health and safety - and without traction on the first concept, this part will be lost on nitwits (I think Teddy bear will jump in here and assist me).

Relative humidity has a lot to do with comfort. Higher humidity levels allow you to keep the house at lower temperatures AND be more comfortable. Lower temperature over the whole season can save a fair amount of energy. Your ability to have/maintain high humidity levels is a function of the coldest interior surfaces. Setback makes these surfaces colder (lower dewpoint), while at the same time driving relative UP. Recovery warms the air much quicker than these surfaces, so if you dump moisture to maintain rh during recovery, now you risk condensation, mildew, mold, and rot on visible and invisible building components.

Maintaining a level temperature significantly improves RH control, and allows lower setpoints for comfort due to both skin surface temperatures (a function of higher dewpoint) and radiant pull by household surfaces.

Finally, when temperatures reach design, a properly sized furnace by design will take a LONG time to recover. How is this a good thing? No HVAC contractor wants this phone call, investing time to explain to some idiot why they can't come home, and in 10 minutes drive their indoor temp up 10 degrees when it's -5f outside. Even when that conversation succeeds it costs the business money. So now setback strategy forces HVAC guys to feel compelled to install over-sized equipment. Hey, that DOESN'T cost them money, it makes it! Over-sized equipment needs more service, doesn't last as long, why fight it! Isn't that just great!!

So let's get rid of the stupid impediments to real energy efficiency, which is tightening houses, downsizing equipment, managing humidity and NOT FIDDLING WITH THE THERMOSTAT.

But, with people resisting the 101 freshman concepts or simply unable to grasp more than one concept at a time we can't get to the more advanced stuff, can we?

[tipsrfine]

tedkidd, I just couldn't find any good research or studies with "a smoking gun" on this issue. Even the research study on those canadian houses mentioned the concerns with "normal" homes you mentioned.
commerce won't quit the argument without some type of research or study to support your view, and that last article you posted is just not on point due to it being about a heat-pump.
I think the whole thing is similar to people who want to lose weight, but not willing to work-out, that go for the easy "take this pill" to lose weight gimmics. Being told you can save money by just turning the t-stat down is an easy fix people can go with rather than doing the real work-out.

[tedkidd]

... then those fat asses complain about wet windows, rotting building components, and that their "Humidity (is) too low"...

[commerce48]

this part will be lost on nitwits

OK, that is twice now that you have resorted to name calling. Interesting choice of terms, since your one citation actually says the same thing I did, albeit ever so grudgingly.


The new thermostat that they replaced our original thermostat with was a programmable one. Someone else told them they could save a lot more money if they installed a programmable thermostat and programmed it to set back to 62 degrees during the day when they were at work, and back up to 70 at 5:00 in the evening, and down again at 11:00 at night, and then up again so their home would be warm in the morning.

This works well with fossil fuel furnaces, because fossil fuel furnaces are sized way bigger than they need to be to get the job done. They can play "catch up" with temperatures in the house.

In fact, they said it twice. Kind of hard to miss. Did you see the "works well" quote above for setback strategies?


Setting a furnace back is what people with expensive, inefficient fossil fuel furnaces had to resort to, so they could save money somehow. Geothermal heat pumps are already money saving and efficient, and because of their design, don't benefit from the technique of setting temperatures back.

You can change the subject all you want, but the laws of thermodynamics says that energy is saved when you stop burning energy. Pretty darned hard to come up with a coherent, rational argument against that. And you don't even seem to be trying to be rational.

[commerce48]

Finally, when temperatures reach design, a properly sized furnace by design will take a LONG time to recover. How is this a good thing?

Yup. And how is that a bad thing? That is what smart recovery thermostats do. In fact, while I've only had my Infinity less than a month, it appears that it has a learning algorithm and spends the majority of time recovering in low stage. Which means that it takes over an hour to recover from the large setbacks I use (8 to 15 degrees), but hits the target temperature at the target time. All the rooms have even temperatures, and none of my furniture is cold.

I believe that meets your criteria for comfort. And any time spent below the at home awake temperature is energy saved. By definition. No, I don't know how much I am saving having my set point 8 to 15 degrees lower for 16 hours a day. Does it matter? How much money do you save by turning off a light switch when you leave the room? Should you leave all the lights on and the furnace running when you leave home? Do you know how much energy would be saved if everyone with gas forced air furnaces used a programmable thermostat? It is considerable.


So let's get rid of the stupid impediments to real energy efficiency, which is tightening houses, downsizing equipment, managing humidity and NOT FIDDLING WITH THE THERMOSTAT.

So exactly what is wrong with using every available method to save energy? Once you have tightened homes, downsized equipment, and managed humidity, what on earth is wrong with "fiddling" with the thermostat? Or "fiddling" with the thermostat until you can afford the more expensive fixes? If you are talking to me specifically, I have already done just as you suggest, except that I am still fiddling with my thermostat.

Seems to be working, because while the winter is not over, I've already had some pretty darned cold weather for significant stretches, and seem to be on track for a consistent $50 gas bill (not averaged) for winter months - fully half of which are delivery charges.


But, with people resisting the 101 freshman concepts or simply unable to grasp more than one concept at a time we can't get to the more advanced stuff, can we?

Unfortunately it is people like you that are the problem with emphatic statements that a real and zero-incremental-cost method to reduce energy costs cannot work. Without without any evidence, unable to even cite a non-credible source that says that setbacks do not save energy.

And you call me a nit-wit?

[DjPolar]

Thanks for all the replies.

- The efficiency of at least this bypass humidifier cant be the best.
I did a test. In 1 Minute, with that winter/summer thing closed 8oz of water run through the humidifier. In 1 minute WITH airstream and heat (after waiting a while to settle for everything), the waste water amount is 6.5oz. So only 1.5oz/heatingminute is being evaporated. Maybe 20%. Not very impressive.

one thing to help with the water useage issue is to turn down the water shut off (either a needle valve, or ball valve) to just a trickle, you don't need much water to flow over it just to throw the rest down the drain. You wanna use every drop possible...
again didn't see anybody cover this, just been my experience (8+yrs)

[beenthere]

one thing to help with the water useage issue is to turn down the water shut off (either a needle valve, or ball valve) to just a trickle, you don't need much water to flow over it just to throw the rest down the drain. You wanna use every drop possible...
again didn't see anybody cover this, just been my experience (8+yrs)

Areas that have hard water need the full flow to keep the pad clean. People with water softeners don't need the full flow.

[tedkidd]

Doe estimates setbacks greater than 8 f could save as much as 5%? Wow, don't break a leg on your way to the bank! you bought super efficient equipment and attribute your savings to setback. But you haven't tried not using setback. Yeah, you are brilliant.

For setback savings to work requires oversized equipment(per your own quotes), something i already contended. How does that support your argument? (what a nitwit).

So, with oversized equipment you can "save" 5%, wow! What is the COST of the oversized equipment? Well if results reported by my clients are any indication, 30-70%.

And how about that humidity control?

16 degree setback! Do you use a humidifier? If so Psychometric chart must be well beyond your ability to comprehend. Teddybear, what do you think about 16 degree temp swings?

What is someone who thinks a really great pie only needs good crust, and doesn't bother to get good filling. Someone unable to comprehend the interconnectedness of things, who tends to obsess on a really small part of the picture? Can anyone answer that for me?

[commerce48]

Again, zero facts and irrational contentions and continued name calling. All HVAC equipment is oversized 90 percent of the time in most regions of the country.

What difference does it make what percentage of energy one saves? Will you send me the difference if I overheat my home? Is that what you tell your clients, don't bother with anything under 20 percent improvement? Should we be setting our stats at 73 when we are perfectly comfortable at 68 because you have a wild belief that it doesn't save money?

Humidity control? Are you changing the subject again? Since you seem to be also attacking my personal home, I will tell you that my indoor humidity is a stable 35 percent at 68 degrees.

If you want to heat your home 100 percent of the time if you are only going to be there a third of the time, it is up to you. Your money. I prefer to save mine.

Why are you wasting bandwidth trying to rewrite the laws of thermodynamics? This site is supposed to inform, not misinform. You are completely on your own here, not one person has given you any credible support, and you have zero references or data to provide. A true believer!

[teddy bear]

Doe

16 degree setback! Do you use a humidifier? If so Psychometric chart must be well beyond your ability to comprehend. Teddybear, what do you think about 16 degree temp swings?
answer that for me?

I would prefer to keep my dehu dog out of this fight if possible. A little set-back is fun just to see if you your equipment can handle it. It is hard on your windows through if you are maintaining humidity in your home.
Of course the better the insulation job and the higher the efficiency of your heating equipment, the less benefit you get out of set back.
I do like set up during the cooling season because of the big amount of moisture removal you get from extended a/c operation during the temp pull down.
Keep up the intercourse, someone will learn something for sure.
Regards TB

[tedkidd]

Hey, stupid people do stupid things, no stopping that. Smart people do stupid things too, often thoughtlessly, get them thinking and they may stop it.

I don't care if Comm stops his behavior. I just don't want others to blindly follow a behavior developed 50 years ago thinking it's a cure all. This came about before the pc, the cell phone, modulating condensing equipment, and in the dark ages of building science. It was not a cure all then, and is even less one now. Most houses have completely different equipment, and the houses themselves are different. Without measuring, following this strategy is simply stupidity. He has graciously offered himself up as an example, and I'm shining a light on it so others benefit. Hopefully some smart people will get thinking.

Without measurement, setback strategy is little more than superstitious behavior. Bloodletting, masterbation causes blindness, these are the ways humans used to think. While Comm may embrace and blindly follow this way of thinking, I say question it. Every house is different, and the varying needs of the occupants magnify this difference. His focus on having the furnace not run when technology is driving towards efficiency being having the equipment run all the time is resistance to new modern ways of thinking. Add to this, he has the most technologically advanced communicating equipment available, it can understand stupid human behavior and compensate. Not true for most people, even those with modern multi-stage equipment.

That Comm obsesses on having his equipment shut off during the heating season, as if by shutting off it stops the flow of energy leaving his house, is myopic. He obsesses on it to such great extent that he doesn't allow for unintended consequences outside of his narrow band of knowledge or comprehension. That house is losing heat whether the furnace runs or not, and managing humidity is a function of the interplay between indoor air temperature, indoor surface temperature, and outdoor air temperature. Managing humidity for him is changing the subject. I hope others reading this see how incredibly ignorant that is. Moisture IS heat. It is called latent heat for a reason.

People either live comfortably or they live on the border of what is bearable. In some cases the answer is nothing. If you are living on the border of what is bearable, AND you happen to be saving money, is it worth it? Is the difference between comfort and discomfort, between dry cracked skin and healthy skin, between having cold feet all the time and not, worth $10 a year? $20? How do you know if you haven't measured?

Every house is different, prescription without diagnoses and measurement is malpractice. In some cases setback costs money. If you haven't measured, you don't know. Comm hasn't measured, so he doesn't even know for his house, and he certainly can't prescribe this strategy as a cure all and not risk being branded a snake oil salesman.

Technology has caught up and allows us to deliver JUST the heat lost, continuously, comfortably, and incredibly efficiently. If I can shine a light on the stupidity of "hoping" you are saving energy by blindly following superstition without measurement, I can help smart people.

[commerce48]

I just don't want others to blindly follow a behavior developed 50 years ago thinking it's a cure all.

No one has even posted the slightest hint of saying set backs are a cure all. This debate is about whether or not it saves energy. They do. You appear to have completely stopped saying that it does not. So that debate is over, OK?

If you want to discuss other reasons why set backs is not a good idea, go ahead! I'm not going to stop you. You'll have to also take up your rationales with every thermostat maker, utility company, government agency, and the vast majority of your peers. Probably your beloved BPI as well. No doubt some of your ideas are good ones in the proper context, but many clearly are not universally applicable, as indeed set backs are not appropriate for a limited capacity heat pump.

[tedkidd]

This thread is about managing humidity. Managing humidity and setback are at distinct odds. I asked why the absurd setback, you think the homeowner is using setback to save money.

I'm suggesting there may be no money saved, and the potential for mold and rot increases as they increase the moisture they dump into their house and alter inside temperatures.

You insist money is being saved, but cant even prove, much less quantify it FOR YOUR OWN HOUSE. brilliant.

I say without measurement there is no way to know if money is being saved, and the complex interplay of factors I bring up that seem beyond your ability to comprehend are the reasons savings may not occur.

You want simple answers to complex questions, (i get it, to follow old simple rules is reassuring for small minds) so you resist the idea these things are not simple. Just like your decision to sacrifice output range and versitility to buy a furnace thatsvfactory rating is 1% better than the better model. You obsess on the small stuff and miss the big picture, as if 1% under factory conditions will translate to your installation. Even if it did, what's the savings, $7?

I know this is my fault. Haven't been able to simplify this enough for you to understand:

Setback may save gas in some cases, but if you don't measure you don't know. And even if you save $5 per year on gas but spend $80 more electricity to get you humidity needs met (for say steam humidification, not including all the headache these people go through to solve this humidity problem) what is setback saving?

[commerce48]

you think the homeowner is using setback to save money.

What other reason could there be?


I'm suggesting there may be no money saved,

Without a shred of evidence, or common sense


You insist money is being saved, but cant even prove, much less quantify it FOR YOUR OWN HOUSE. brilliant.

I say without measurement there is no way to know if money is being saved,


You know, I turn my lights off when leaving a room too. No, I haven't measured the savings, but it is easy enough to do with simple math. When you turn off an energy using appliance, energy (and money) is being saved. Pretty darned simple. If you want to prove that this is contrary to the laws of thermodynamics, feel free. I think I've asked you do do so several times.

The only source you cited to support your amazing rewriting of basic energy laws said this:


This (setbacks) works well with fossil fuel furnaces

If you want to discuss particular situations where humidity control is impacted by setbacks, go ahead. But you have to start with fundamentals first. I'm only addressing your repeated unsupported contention that setbacks don't save energy. As far as humidity control goes, fixing a problem primarily by sealing the envelope is a far better solution than bandaid devices such as steam humidifiers, or dehumidifiers that add energy costs. Passive controls (including setbacks) that don't require additional energy are always better.

Your emotions are really running high if you want to jump off the fixing-the-envelope bandwagon to win a losing argument. If you just step back a couple of steps, you would agree.

[tedkidd]

Current building science has proven a lot of "common sense" is wrong.

You claim setback is an energy saving strategy. I say it may have been for a large number of homes 40 years ago, when single output low efficiency grossly oversized in loose houses was the norm. That you leave the "oversized" part out of your quote is dishonest.

Modern equipment is designed to be most efficient when running continuously, gently adjusting output to load. You think running full throttle and shutting off is still the best approach.

Geothermal is a great example of setback failure because people using setback with geo have found when they stop using setback their bills go DOWN. Many have documented setback COSTS them money. There's my proof.

You say it still saves, and you embrace this technique. Yet you can't even prove it works for you.

Building science takes a large number of concepts and ties them together. Your complete lack of understanding of potential moisture problems resulting from temperature swings exemplifies this. Air sealing will not solve for surfaces that go below dew point.

If it's too tough for you, stick with your reassuring common sense, but hopefully others will see the fallacy of your antiquated approach.

You claim a strategy you use saves money, but can't say how much or even if it does. Really, I think a lot of people want to know about the big money your approach is saving.

[commerce48]

Geothermal is a great example of setback failure because people using setback with geo have found when they stop using setback their bills go DOWN. Many have documented setback COSTS them money. There's my proof.

Over and over again, I'm talking about gas furnaces. I've mentioned that heat pumps are a special situation. Of course it costs more to recover with resistance heating.


You say it still saves, and you embrace this technique. Yet you can't even prove it works for you.

Does, or does not turning off lights save money? Do you need a study? Your own source says that setbacks works well for gas furnaces.


Building science takes a large number of concepts and ties them together. Your complete lack of understanding of potential moisture problems resulting from temperature swings exemplifies this. Air sealing will not solve for surfaces that go below dew point.

Sure, that proves setbacks don't save money.


If it's too tough for you, stick with your reassuring common sense, but hopefully others will see the fallacy of your antiquated approach.

You claim a strategy you use saves money, but can't say how much or even if it does. Really, I think a lot of people want to know about the big money your approach is saving.

Hopefully no one will stop using programmable thermostats because of your ridiculous contentions. I'm not as deep pocketed as you, and I will continue to turn lights off, and turn my furnace down when I'm not at home, and be happy knowing I'm saving money and energy. No matter how much. Why do you want me to quantify my personal savings? Compared to what?

OK, here are quotes from the first four Google hits on programmable thermostats and saving money/energy:

$180 a year (http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=find_a_product.showProductGro up&pgw_code=TH)

you can cut your heating bills by up to 20 percent a year (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20997977/ns/business-consumer_news/)

If you use it you will save some energy/money. (http://factsfacts.com/MyHomeRepair/thermostats.htm)

It may not seem like much money but even if you only save $1.00 per day in heating and cooling costs, it adds up. In today's market, you can save much more than that. (http://www.askthebuilder.com/B367_Programmable_Thermostats_Save.shtml)

That's just the first four hits. I can paste a few hundred more for you. For some bizarre reason, no one is backing you up, not even the site you linked.

[tedkidd]

Why don't we host an experiment. I like tracking from year to year as variables tend to be averaged out, but if savings are significant as 20% they should show over a week if we get enough participants.

We ll start a thread tracking gas meters. Have anyone interested in participating post their read tomorrow, describe their setback strategy and make no changes for a week. Next Sunday take another read, set their stat 0-2 f within their uppermost setting and leave for a week. Reading ate end of second week will show which homes benefit from this and by how much.

I have high mass radiant, so setback does not work for me, but you could lead the experiment. It will give you an opportunity to see if it works for you, and others. Don't you want to know if it saves you money? You seem resistant to measuring, afraid to find out.

I bet it doesn't provide significant savings (>5%) for the majority. For my typical customer, if 75% of usage is heating, 5% means saving $15-$45 per year. You bet 20% savings?

[bigtime]

A structure looses heat in proportion to the temperature difference between the structure and the outside. When you have a "setback" you lose less btu's because there is a smaller temp difference. You dont get any huge savings lowering the temp a few degrees or so, but you definately use less fuel when you lower the temp in the house. You also get the benefit of a good nights sleep in a cool house, and the long run times when the furnace is catching up.

[beenthere]

Why don't we host an experiment. I like tracking from year to year as variables tend to be averaged out, but if savings are significant as 20% they should show over a week if we get enough participants.

We ll start a thread tracking gas meters. Have anyone interested in participating post their read tomorrow, describe their setback strategy and make no changes for a week. Next Sunday take another read, set their stat 0-2 f within their uppermost setting and leave for a week. Reading ate end of second week will show which homes benefit from this and by how much.



My area will be coming out of a cold snap by the end of this week. The following week will be a warmer week.

So if such a test was done in my place using this week and next, the savings shown would not be nearly as much as it really is over the course of a full heating season.much. And would be misleading.

And if your test is done with any area have the opposite weather, it would show an exaggerated savings.

So any test done would have to include HDDs for each week, probably broken down to each day.

While your test is a good idea at first glance. Your participants also need to be willing to record the ambients of each day. And recording the meter reading of each day. Along with weather they did any unusual cooking, laundry, habit changes, or guess/entertainment changes at the house during the test.

[tedkidd]

We could do a third week to see variability between week 1 and 3.

One of the reasons I don't think setback has the impact people assume is heating degree days. When I've had the opportunity to do longer term analyses (multiple years) the significance of swings in annual hdd does not correlate as directly as I would have assumed. This told me that delta t is given too much credit and got me thinking setback might not make the sense everyone assumes.

I too used to drink the coolaid.

So I've been breaking people of the habit and tracking results. Everyone reports significant energy savings and dramatic comfort improvement. Even cases with no weatherization improvements, just 82% to 95% equipment and setback abandonment reports 27% energy savings. The true tell would be to get them all to go back to setback for a year, not likely to get any takers.

[tipsrfine]

We could do a third week to see variability between week 1 and 3.

One of the reasons I don't think setback has the impact people assume is heating degree days. When I've had the opportunity to do longer term analyses (multiple years) the significance of swings in annual hdd does not correlate as directly as I would have assumed. This told me that delta t is given too much credit and got me thinking setback might not make the sense everyone assumes.

I too used to drink the coolaid.

So I've been breaking people of the habit and tracking results. Everyone reports significant energy savings and dramatic comfort improvement. Even cases with no weatherization improvements, just 82% to 95% equipment and setback abandonment reports 27% energy savings. The true tell would be to get them all to go back to setback for a year, not likely to get any takers.

Wow that's a bold statement! I was willing to go along with the little or no savings idea, but 27% savings!? Have you shown these results to anyone? There just are not a lot of documented studies on this, and the ones that are out there tend to support the setback is good idea. I only saw one stating that high thermal mass buildings did suffer a lesser savings from setback than did the other buildings, but it still showed savings.

I very much hope a lot of homeowners take part in this test, but I hope they also keep track of the outdoor temps as well.

[kirbinster]

I don't think a couple of weeks can give numbers worth anything. Last night here in NJ got down to zero, and it was three degrees the night before. Next week it will probably be in the twenties at night, and who knows after that.

I will attest that added insulation helps. I and three friends on the same street all have the original attic insulation that was put in the houses when first build in the early 1970's - R-19. My house is a little different as I also added an addition about 18 years ago and put R-30 in that part of the house. We all installed new Carrier Infinity systems a year ago installed by the same contractor. That is the only heat for house "B". House "C" has the Carrier heating the first floor and basement and an original open combustion unit heating the third floor. My house (House A) has the Carrier heating everything but the bedrooms and an 18 year old Rheem condensing unit heating the bedrooms. After I added 18-24" of blown fiberglass to the attics ontop of the old insulation I was wondering if it did anything for me. I looked at the December gas bill, and was shocked to see the therm usage went up by 6% from the year before. Dejected I contacts my friends and had them check their bills, which are all for identical days. House "B" went up by 15% and house "C" went up by 19%. So, I conclude that my insulation is doing something since mine only went up by 6%.

[commerce48]

So I've been breaking people of the habit and tracking results. Everyone reports significant energy savings and dramatic comfort improvement. Even cases with no weatherization improvements, just 82% to 95% equipment and setback abandonment reports 27% energy savings. The true tell would be to get them all to go back to setback for a year, not likely to get any takers.

I can believe those results are quite possible in a one week trial. Do they prove anything? Absolutely not. You have a lot of chutzpah to even post such crap. What's next? Measuring energy use during a single furnace cycle and using that to justify that the laws of thermodynamics are wrong?

Even energy use measurements year over year are likely to be misleading as winter average temperatures vary quite a bit from year to year. And you want to do it over two weeks without bothering to adjust for outside temps?

[tipsrfine]

I don't think a couple of weeks can give numbers worth anything. Last night here in NJ got down to zero, and it was three degrees the night before. Next week it will probably be in the twenties at night, and who knows after that.

I will attest that added insulation helps. I and three friends on the same street all have the original attic insulation that was put in the houses when first build in the early 1970's - R-19. My house is a little different as I also added an addition about 18 years ago and put R-30 in that part of the house. We all installed new Carrier Infinity systems a year ago installed by the same contractor. That is the only heat for house "B". House "C" has the Carrier heating the first floor and basement and an original open combustion unit heating the third floor. My house (House A) has the Carrier heating everything but the bedrooms and an 18 year old Rheem condensing unit heating the bedrooms. After I added 18-24" of blown fiberglass to the attics ontop of the old insulation I was wondering if it did anything for me. I looked at the December gas bill, and was shocked to see the therm usage went up by 6% from the year before. Dejected I contacts my friends and had them check their bills, which are all for identical days. House "B" went up by 15% and house "C" went up by 19%. So, I conclude that my insulation is doing something since mine only went up by 6%.

Anytime I see someone advise people to increase their insulation, with no mention of air sealing, I have to point out the importance of FIRST performing air-sealing. This is especially important for colder climates for the reason that insulating without air sealing increases the chances for moisture damage/mold in the attic, along with increasing the chanses for ice damns forming on the roof. Not just the obvious & easy to get to air leaks either; the inner & outer top plates have to be air sealed also. There doesn't seem to be many companies that understand the importance of sealing the top plates.

[keviekev70]

What does 25%rh at 70 turn into at 60?[/QUOTE]

32.9% RH

[tedkidd]

Commerce will do anything he can to keep his head burried in the sand. Will the data teach anything? Maybe not. He's against tracking and experimenting, prefers to follow instructions from above without measuring or question "because it makes sense. He's the type who would believe in bloodletting.

Bbbaaaaaahhhhhhh. Mmbbbaaaaahhhhh. "Lets not do this because we may learn nothing..." What a follower.

The house of the future will have smaller and smaller equipment. That is the direction energy efficiency is going. Our behaviors and preconceptions will need to change for us to get there. Setback simply won't work AT ALL in a 3000 sf house heated by a 10,000 btu coil connected to an erv, and it already is becoming and outdated approach for more and more people. The complex interplay of issues is WAY beyond his intellectual capacity to grasp, but I think others see this and are starting to get it.

I like doing numbers. Sometimes they don't tell much, but sometimes they do. Not much to lose, and getting people reading their meters is a good thing in my opinion.


What does 25%rh at 70 turn into at 60?

32.9% RH[/QUOTE]
What does 50%rh at 70f become at 50f...?

[keviekev70]

Commerce will do anything he can to keep his head burried in the sand. Will the data teach anything? Maybe not. He's against tracking and experimenting, prefers to follow instructions from above without measuring or question "because it makes sense. He's the type who would believe in bloodletting.

Bbbaaaaaahhhhhhh. Mmbbbaaaaahhhhh. "Lets not do this because we may learn nothing..." What a follower.

I like doing numbers. Sometimes they don't tell much, but sometimes they do. Not much to lose, and getting people reading their meters is a good thing in my opinion.



32.9% RH
What does 50%rh at 70f become at 50f...?[/QUOTE]
Looks like it's gona rain...lol..

[tedkidd]

Do you have the ability to temp the inside temperature of your windows? What do you suspect is the temperature of building components adjacent to can lights/electrical penetrations in your attic?

[commerce48]

Bbbaaaaaahhhhhhh. Mmbbbaaaaahhhhh. "Lets not do this because we may learn nothing..." What a follower.

The flaws in this experiment are evident and have been pointed out by me and others. Heck, you are not even bothering to limit types of heating equipment. Why would I participate in such a flawed experiment? I already know how to do simple math, observational studies of btu usage without even compensating for outside temperature is pointless.


Setback simply won't work AT ALL in a 3000 sf house heated by a 10,000 btu coil connected to an erv, and it already is becoming and outdated approach for more and more people. The complex interplay of issues is WAY beyond his intellectual capacity to grasp, but I think others see this and are starting to get it.

Again with the heat pumps with resistance recovery? And exactly what percentage of homeowners have ERVs? No matter how many red herrings you slip in, the laws of thermodynamics will not change.


I like doing numbers. Sometimes they don't tell much, but sometimes they do.

Conclusions in flawed studies are completely dependent on the bias of the writer. You have summed that point up neatly. Throw out the numbers that don't agree with you, and keep the ones that do.

[tedkidd]

If setback saves, then the colder it is the more it will save, right or wrong?

If it saves 20% on average, should be able to measure that over a week, particularly is assumption 1 is correct.

I would like to know the if, and the how much. Are you afraid to participate!

I apologize if I made you look stupid, conflict generates interest in these threads and setback should not be blindly implemented. Every situation is different.

Please participate. Think about how great you'll fee if you prove your strategy is saving even a few people oodles and boodles of dough. even if it just proves you save money that'll be vindication, right?

[commerce48]

If setback saves, then the colder it is the more it will save, right or wrong?

Can you state your question more clearly? Are you asking if a greater setback improves energy savings? Yes, and the Canadian study quantified two different setbacks. Or are you asking what happens when it is colder outside?


If it saves 20% on average, should be able to measure that over a week, particularly is assumption 1 is correct.

For starters, I have never made any claim about the magnitude of savings. Your second assumption is incorrect unless the house usage and outdoor temperatures are exactly the same.


I would like to know the if, and the how much. Are you afraid to participate!

Nope, not afraid to participate. However it would be idiotic to participate in such stupidity as I said before. I know that turning off lights and lowering heat saves money. I don't need to prove the laws of thermodynamics to you, but I'll be happy again to point you at some textbooks. Perhaps Thermodynamics for Dummies?


I apologize if I made you look stupid,

I don't think there has been any danger of that. In fact, I'm rather embarrassed by your contentions and fear for your own reputation.


Think about how great you'll fee if you prove your strategy is saving even a few people oodles and boodles of dough.

You continue to be amazingly focused on the magnitude of savings. The fact that it is above zero would be enough for most rational thrifty people, and these with an environmental or patriotic focus. These are the people who turn their lights off when not using them, program their thermostats so they don't forget to turn the heat down when they don't need it, and turn their cars off when they run into stores, and drive moderately.

These are all no out-of-pocket-cost strategies that save money. When your entire lifestyle employs similar non-extreme strategies, the overall savings can be personally significant. However, lets examine a minimal possible setback savings scenario. Would you say that a dollar a day is insignificant, say compared with the comfort risk a homeowner might be having if they come home an hour before recovery is complete?

So that buck a day is $365 a year. Or $3,650 over ten years. Or double that with a fairly conservative investment plan for the savings. I don't know how much you make, but I can think of a lot of things I could do with that kind of money rather than heat the outdoors.

Let's look at the larger societal picture. Back to a buck a day. Now lets say we can persuade fully 50 million homeowners to do the same - all of whom also only save this very small amount. That is 50 million dollars a day savings to our society. Or a reduction of 18 billion dollars a year that we are not sending overseas to fund terrorists. Or 18 billion dollars a year of energy not creating air pollution.

So any amount of savings above zero is very worthwhile, not only to individuals, but to our nation and our health. Having "pros" suggest that this is dumb, even without credible evidence or the laws of thermodynamics on their side, is reprehensible if it only persuades one deluded individual. Otherwise, I could care less how foolish you might appear to your peers.

[Homeowner34]

Hi Fallout -

In case you haven't found a solution to your low humidity problems, I've got an idea for you. I just got an Evolution furnace (355CAV) with the Evolution thermostat and a large bypass humidifier (on the return as yours is). I was also having a hard time raising the humidity.
But when I was going through the thermostat manual to find out how to activate the humidifier and fan without the furnace on, I discovered there is a special setting in the Advanced menu (hold down the Advanced button for about ten seconds to get to the menu - choose Setup, Furnace, then find Low Heat Rise and turn it to "on"). In the manual, it says this Low Heat Rise should be switched to on if you have a bypass humidifier. It increases the airflow on the Low furnace stage so there is enough air passing over the humidifier pad for the humidity to increase.
You may also want to look at the "Comfort or Efficiency" setting in the Setup-Furnace menu - it sounds like the 95 efficiency rating for the furnace is based on the Efficiency setting. Some professional poster from Canada on this website said the airflow increases with the Efficiency setting, therefore pulling more heat off the heat exchangers. The increased fan noise in the Efficiency setting is minimal in my house.
By the way, many thanks to all of the professionals and homeowners out there who post and advise on this website - your comments led me to the quality set up I now have, and demonstrated the importance of having a quality installation.