I need help in philly - cold old house

[ineedamiracle]

My wife fell in love with an old house - I quite honestly hate the house but I caved and now I am stuck here. The house has electric baseboard heat, a propane wood stove in an addition, and a unico system for air conditioning. I received our first electric bill and I thought I was going to have a heart attack - i used to think the propoane bills at our previous house were bad. Do I have any options for heating with out bankrupting me? I have read on this forum that a heat pump can be added to the unico system - is this any better than the baseboard heat? the House has a partially finished basement and two bedrooms upstairs in addition to the main floor. I actually have an appointment with a HVAC company later this evening to give me some ideas as to what they might be able to install. I am not an HVAC professional nor am I a DIY I just do not know where to turn to help determine what the most econmical system may be that I could ask local HVAC companies for.

[Crazy4thenucks]

Perhaps you can add a water coil to the Unico system if you have room for a boiler....or a Heat pump as you already sugested....you will need to go with a higher SEER... about 15 or more if electricity isnt cheap where you are.

[flange]

your best bet would be to replace that electric baseboard with a hydronic system and a gas fired boiler. gas is everywhere in philly and as long as you are not too far off the road, they usually bring it to you very inexpensively. heating those old homes with wind is tough, what part of the city, there are good guys hanging around here who might be intersted in having a look?

[genduct]

Check my profile for an email address if you would like a second opinion. I have a customer who may be able to help you. We sell HVAC Contractors our service

[cboe]

what ever system you decide on you need to upgrade the house in regards to insulation. walls and floors should have R-19 if it can be done, and R-38 in the attic. and don't forget thermopane windows. it cost a lot of $$$. I know. because I have a old house. and thats what I had to do. and being a retired HVAC contractor it still cost me an arm and a leg. PS and a lot of calking.

[ineedamiracle]

Thanks for the suggestions. Not sure if anyone on here services the philly burbs - let me know. I am on my 3rd HVAC company - just trying to get an estimate - the first two companies that came out never got back to me and did not really even provide me with options. I called about gas and PECO wants 6K to bring gas from the street to my house.

[flange]

Whih part of the burbs, and how far off the road are you? price seems excessive to bring in gas. in most cases, you call them up tell them you want to convert your home to gas, and they make you pay for the inside the home piping, and have it pressure tested, ready to the outside of the home. They send in a crew to pull plastic up to your home and tie in the meter. never seen one priced that high.

Give an idea of where you might be, there are good local guys hanging around here that do residential work. bucks? montco? chedder counties?

[d_griff]

Thanks for the suggestions. Not sure if anyone on here services the philly burbs - let me know. I am on my 3rd HVAC company - just trying to get an estimate - the first two companies that came out never got back to me and did not really even provide me with options. I called about gas and PECO wants 6K to bring gas from the street to my house.

I personally have done gas conversions in the city with no expense from PGW.
They will only charge you if you do not have the main in the street already, And in that case they will run it for the whole street so they want to try to get you to share the load with the neighbors so they can dig one big main and be done with that street. Are you in the city or in the burbs? I am guessing in the outskirts because if you were in the city here you would most likely have PGW supplying your gas.
You could drop a propane or oil tank, I know the propane companies in the area usually dont charge either. I am in the middle of a propane (from oil) conversion now in bucks county and the company is dropping the tank for free, They are just happy to get a new customer.
Does the Unico supply the entire house with cooling?

[d_griff]

Whih part of the burbs, and how far off the road are you? price seems excessive to bring in gas. in most cases, you call them up tell them you want to convert your home to gas, and they make you pay for the inside the home piping, and have it pressure tested, ready to the outside of the home. They send in a crew to pull plastic up to your home and tie in the meter. never seen one priced that high.

Give an idea of where you might be, there are good local guys hanging around here that do residential work. bucks? montco? chedder counties?

Chedder counties? Man i must have missed that place, Tell me where to find it :LOL:::DD:

[ineedamiracle]

I live just north of lansdale in Montco. The Unico does provide cooling for the whole house - so I do have unico vents in every room except the basement. Based on the conversations I have had with the companies that have been to the house they think that adding a heat pump to the unico would be the best option. However, I am not sure how effective it is going to be when it gets below 30 - based on what i have read online - I am not sure if it will ultimately save me any $. I do have a propane tank at the house for a small "wood stove" in the family room. Not sure if propane could work with the unico? The companies that have been to the house do not even mention propane as an option for the whole house.

[mbarson]

Get a thorough whole house energy audit first. By focusing only on the HVAC you will miss opportunities to improve the homes efficiency, safety, and comfort.
Insulation along air sealing are first priorities.

[commerce48]

I live just north of lansdale in Montco. The Unico does provide cooling for the whole house - so I do have unico vents in every room except the basement. Based on the conversations I have had with the companies that have been to the house they think that adding a heat pump to the unico would be the best option. However, I am not sure how effective it is going to be when it gets below 30 - based on what i have read online - I am not sure if it will ultimately save me any $. I do have a propane tank at the house for a small "wood stove" in the family room. Not sure if propane could work with the unico? The companies that have been to the house do not even mention propane as an option for the whole house.

A heat pump will definitely save you over electric baseboard. If you get an inverter based one, it should handle your needs well below zero. There is only one choice right now, the Nordyne Group's IQ Drive (sold under brand names like Maytag). Later this year, Carrier is also going to have a similar model. Mitsubishi sells their excellent Zuba Central, but only in Canada on this continent - still worth checking if and when they will start distributing it here.

All of those choices will cost you big up front, but be very cost effective over the long term.

[BACnet]

Get a thorough whole house energy audit first. By focusing only on the HVAC you will miss opportunities to improve the homes efficiency, safety, and comfort.
Insulation along air sealing are first priorities.

I agree with this 100%.

Getting away from electric baseboard heating is a must in the long term- it's simply too inefficient. But that might be a project for next year or the year after.

Once you get the whole house energy audit I expect you'll find that you have a whole lot of projects to tackle before the HVAC system. Lets face it, if the heat is leaking out, you're going to pay to heat the house back up. Fix the leaks now and redo the HVAC once the house is worthy.

Remember- Even if the windows are the top priority, a little plastic should get you through the winter. But only a whole house audit will steer you onto the correct path(s).

[Shophound]

Get a thorough whole house energy audit first. By focusing only on the HVAC you will miss opportunities to improve the homes efficiency, safety, and comfort.
Insulation along air sealing are first priorities.

I agree with this. It will give you a baseline to determine many future decisions that over time can add up to saving you considerable overhead costs for living in a house you don't like. In fact, it's possible at some point you might come to like the house, if you can make it stop eating your wallet so badly. :)

[genduct]

Post #4 said use my profile email if you want a Second (realy fourth) opinion.
Offer still open

[flange]

email him, its a winning combination of brains and being local.

[d_griff]

I agree with this 100%.

Getting away from electric baseboard heating is a must in the long term- it's simply too inefficient.



There is no heat more efficient then electric heat.
Yes the OP's electric bill is higher then most but he does not have a gas or oil bill to add onto that, What may seem like a high electric bill may just be as high as a gas and electric bill together in homes that use fuel to heat.

[tipsrfine]

There is no heat more efficient then electric heat.
Yes the OP's electric bill is higher then most but he does not have a gas or oil bill to add onto that, What may seem like a high electric bill may just be as high as a gas and electric bill together in homes that use fuel to heat.

Where are you getting YOUR electric? Gas is far cheaper in my area.

[d_griff]

Where are you getting YOUR electric? Gas is far cheaper in my area.

Did i say cheaper? Or did i say efficient?

[tipsrfine]

Did i say cheaper? Or did i say efficient?

You didn't take into account the coal that is burned to produce electricty, nor the big loss in delivery of that elect. Electric is not efficient in the long run.

[BACnet]

There is no heat more efficient then electric heat.


It is possible that you are trying to make a subtle point about how all of the electricity is turned into heat within a resistive baseboard heater, but within the context of this thread, that's a silly if not completely moot point to make.

Electric (resistive) heat as was being discussed here is the most expensive and least efficient. One need not be a rocket scientist to look up the concept of a heatpump which can deliver 2 to 3 times the bang for the buck when compared to resistive heating like this homeowner is currently paying for.

[uniservice]

It's still a known fact that all electric heat is 100% efficient. In my area, the electric rates are lower than most. Nearly 65% of new construction here is still electric baseboard or forced air wall heaters. Because of the nature of these heat sources, the local power company has initiated a heat pump program, for mini split heat pumps.
Back in 96, they had a rebate program promoting add-on heat pump systems to forced air electric furnaces. The suggested savings then, was typically 40% savings on a heat pump versus electric resistance heat. Of course, our climate here is a lot warmer than the East Coast, so probably the savings would't be as substantial as it is here. We get about 25 days a year here where the temperature drops below freezing overnight, and 10 days a year when it staysbelow freezong during the day. Cooling is needed here about 5-6 days a year.

[BACnet]

Electric baseboard heaters convert electricity to heat with 100% efficiency.

But a heatpump can deliver 2 to 3 times as much heat for the same electricity since it uses that electricity to gather ambient heat and force it into your building. So while the electric baseboard heater can be considered efficient, that is only within the context of wasting the electricity by turning it straight into heat.

This is why baseboard heat is the least efficient way to heat a building, regardless of the efficiency of the actual conversion from electricity to heat which is a completely moot point.

:deadhorse:

[nomadpeo]

...and the debate rages on. it doesn't take a supercomputer to figure out that 80 amps of elec heat during a cycle costs more than the running of a heat pump. the real criteria is the duration of the heating season (and of course the insulation and sealing of the house, as mentioned). here in the houston, tx area, we have a couple months of mild winter. the heating function of the heat pump is dormant most of the year. that said, there are some very efficient heat pump systems coming down the pike now included in the 16 seer and higher range. with the introduction of finer tuning via variable speed blower, two stage compressor, communicating thermostat, humidity sensing, etc, combined with a decent air duct system, the initial cost of a heat pump is not outrageous compared with with a standard condensing unit anymore. savings during winter just may offset the upfront cost over time.

i think in general, many contractors don't want to deal with possible fallout from heat pump issues, especially in mild climates. not all technicians can properly diagnose them. that's a general comment, not referencing anyone commenting here.

[sktn77a]

I'm not too familiar with the Unico Systems but my recollection is that they are essentially a heat pump (ie already have both heating and cooling capabilities). Have you checked with Unico to see if yours is such a dual system?

[Shophound]

What??? We're not going to suggest curing the OP's problem by lowering his return air intake to the floor??

We're slipping!!

:D

[stvc]

What??? We're not going to suggest curing the OP's problem by lowering his return air intake to the floor??

We're slipping!!

:D

LOL!

I was going to say that but was afraid brian would show up!

[d_griff]

Electric baseboard heaters convert electricity to heat with 100% efficiency.

But a heatpump can deliver 2 to 3 times as much heat for the same electricity since it uses that electricity to gather ambient heat and force it into your building. So while the electric baseboard heater can be considered efficient, that is only within the context of wasting the electricity by turning it straight into heat.

This is why baseboard heat is the least efficient way to heat a building, regardless of the efficiency of the actual conversion from electricity to heat which is a completely moot point.

:deadhorse:

Yes, in warm ambiant temperatures. I dont know where you are at, But its cold in Philadelphia. Most nights are down in the 20's or lower in january/Februaury. there's not much "ambiant heat" to be gained... You usually wind up just running your resistive electric heat anyway. And i dont even know what a rocket scientist has to do with that common sense....