US built air conditioners ( *still* possible to do)

[compressor9000]

Hello, I am writing about the possibility of building a US made air conditioner. When I say US made, it means it has to have US built compressor, blower motor, etc... I have found that Bristol(benchmark) makes all their compressors in the USA, and copeland makes some of theirs here in the USA.

Have you guys had good experiences with Benchmark(Bristol) compressors?
I have no question about the quality of Baldor motors, since they are guaranteed to be good due to their industrial reputation but input would be appreciated. I prefer Benchmark compressors because they are 100% USA. I do not want to send cash to multinational corp.

Though I would need help with the evaporator/condensers; anyone know any made in the USA? Would prefer all copper piping construction for longevity. I am sure we can then find US made thermostats, capacitors and switches. The chassis itself will be in house made since it is not a precision part, and will be easy to make from quality corten steel, double dip galvanized. Faceplate will be made from a molded plastic since that is industry standard. Though we could try using stamped aluminum as well. Anybody interested in doing this? You guys know the ins an outs, plus you know all the parts providers, and quality tendencies. What do you guys think? Summer will come again, and US industry needs a boost. People will gladly pay for 100% US made air conditioners. Besides, people already pay top dollar for chinese/korean made friedrich units that are not worth the money. Fedders has been decimated in terms of quality since they stopped US production, as all other manufacturers. I would also prefer the units to use R22a (non CFC) for ease of maintenance. New R410 requires total purge and recharge for a leak fix/recharge since it is a cocktail of gases.

Again, any input would be helpful, and appreciated. Anyone interested in doing this? As I said, this is "still" possible to do, though it seems as though soon, in a few years, it will not be possible to do this as everything in the US becomes decimated.

[dijit]

Hello, I am writing about the possibility of building a US made air conditioner. When I say US made, it means it has to have US built compressor, blower motor, etc... I have found that Bristol(benchmark) makes all their compressors in the USA, and copeland makes some of theirs here in the USA.

Have you guys had good experiences with Benchmark(Bristol) compressors?
I have no question about the quality of Baldor motors, since they are guaranteed to be good due to their industrial reputation but input would be appreciated. I prefer Benchmark compressors because they are 100% USA. I do not want to send cash to multinational corp.

Though I would need help with the evaporator/condensers; anyone know any made in the USA? Would prefer all copper piping construction for longevity. I am sure we can then find US made thermostats, capacitors and switches. The chassis itself will be in house made since it is not a precision part, and will be easy to make from quality corten steel, double dip galvanized. Faceplate will be made from a molded plastic since that is industry standard. Though we could try using stamped aluminum as well. Anybody interested in doing this? You guys know the ins an outs, plus you know all the parts providers, and quality tendencies. What do you guys think? Summer will come again, and US industry needs a boost. People will gladly pay for 100% US made air conditioners. Besides, people already pay top dollar for chinese/korean made friedrich units that are not worth the money. Fedders has been decimated in terms of quality since they stopped US production, as all other manufacturers. I would also prefer the units to use R22a (non CFC) for ease of maintenance. New R410 requires total purge and recharge for a leak fix/recharge since it is a cocktail of gases.

Again, any input would be helpful, and appreciated. Anyone interested in doing this? As I said, this is "still" possible to do, though it seems as though soon, in a few years, it will not be possible to do this as everything in the US becomes decimated.

Afraid I don't know, but awesome idea. We need to start supporting our own country instead of China, Mexico, and others.

[air2spare]

Its really hard to compete with countries that use child labor, who have no labor laws, no OSHA, who have no descent working conditions, no unions, no employee benefits.....geez, I'm getting depressed :(

[air2spare]

Afraid I don't know, but awesome idea. We need to start supporting our own country instead of China, Mexico, and others.

Then tell your government to quit trading with human rights violators...let me know how that works out

[dijit]

Then tell your government to quit trading with human rights violators...let me know how that works out
They don't listen to me. Otherwise I would tell them a lot more than that. I am but a mere peasant. Besides, where are you from? You don't think your government is the same?
And our country is a human rights violator, wouldn't that be hypocritical?

[dijit]

Are you involved in the manufacturing industry at all Compressor 9000?

If there are US made compressors and the rest can be made in a cost-competitive manner, why not?

Does anyone know if Sporlan manufactures in US. I know they are located here but that doesn't mean much.

[beenthere]

R410A, does not need to be recovered and a virgin charge put in just because some leaked out.

People are NOT willing to pay for an all USA made A/C. If they were. then none of the companies would be using/making parts in other countries to keep cost down. They simply would have raised their price to the contractor, who would have past those increases to their customers. And an A/C unit would cost 3 times as much or more then they do today.

When it is cheaper to ship something over from China, then make it here(those freighters aren't exactly fuel efficient). You know that there is no way we can compete with their labor cost. So anything actually made of all USA parts, will cost much more. And since most people buy on price, you eliminate most of your customers. Those that don't buy on price alone. Will try and get the contractor to take less money for his labor. making it that there is no advantage to him selling an all USA made unit/system.


You want to compete against China, it will have to be done the same way as it was done with Japan. Wait out until the Chinese population, demands that they be paid enough to buy the things that they make for other countries.

[BaldLoonie]

Outdoor units from many brands are still made here as are many compressors. That's changing fast as more production is heading "south". Anything residential Rheem is made in Mexico, new the builder Lennox/Allied units are there too. Trane has made recip compressors in Mexico for a decade. Carrier has made evaps down there for 20 years. After a fiasco, I believe York moved production of their evaps back here.

Mini splits, window units, PTACs are pretty much all "Asian" of some sort, probably China.

Air2 hit it, Americans want cheap and you don't get cheap with American labor.

[billygoat22]

look @ thermoprides market share. they still "make them like they used to", and may be using foreign parts, too. high quality USA type manufacturer.

you'd need to goto a non union state if you want to compete w/ mexico and others.

[compressor9000]

Thanks for the replies guys.
To dijit: no, I am not involved in manufacturing at all, though I have read, and studied these sorts of matters, thermodynamics, etc. Air conditioners are not that complex apart from the compressor, which is also not very complex.

Many window and wall units have "fixed orifice" valves which are just restricting tubes, anyway. You guys also have to realize that the manufacturing process of most of this stuff is automated, like compressors, valves, radiators, etc. It is not as though they are made by hand. All we really have to do is put the parts together- that is where the hands come into play. Apart from designing the chassis, and faceplate, which should be relatively simple, non-precision parts.
Furthermore, as I said the copper condensers would not only increase durability, but would likely increase EER as well since coppers thermal conductivity is higher than that of aluminum, and even gold. I am not sure why manufacturers started with the aluminum parts, understand that they are cheap, but also would reduce efficiency. Not only that, they are destined to fail due to galvanic corrosion since the copper pipes are more "noble" than the aluminum.

Also, you have to realize that american labor can still compete with chinese labor, only a few years ago, you could still buy some air conditioners from the USA that were similar in price to chinese ones. It is not the unions that busted manufacturing, or cheap americans, but the greedy execs, and the rotten government with GATT, NAFTA, free trade, etc. Many americans were not aware of these issues at the time, but now they are realizing what was going on.

Plus, I keep reading about the newer air conditioners, and finding that many don't even work properly out of the box, let alone in a few years.

plus, note that cars made in mexico, like volkswagens, and some fords, are not that much cheaper than the US made fords and chevys. I bet much of it is corporate profit, though most ford engines/transmissions are still made in the USA(chaninging also), so the situation is more complex than that, I guess.

You can't even buy an american bicycle anymore...

http://www.dylanratigan.com/2011/01/06/19-facts-about-the-deindustrialization-of-america-that-will-blow-your-mind/

anyway, I do not want to get too off topic, let's try and figure out the air conditioner issue.

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

Thanks for the replies guys.
To dijit: no, I am not involved in manufacturing at all, though I have read, and studied these sorts of matters, thermodynamics, etc. Air conditioners are not that complex apart from the compressor, which is also not very complex.

Many window and wall units have "fixed orifice" valves which are just restricting tubes, anyway. You guys also have to realize that the manufacturing process of most of this stuff is automated, like compressors, valves, radiators, etc. It is not as though they are made by hand. All we really have to do is put the parts together- that is where the hands come into play. Apart from designing the chassis, and faceplate, which should be relatively simple, non-precision parts.
Furthermore, as I said the copper condensers would not only increase durability, but would likely increase EER as well since coppers thermal conductivity is higher than that of aluminum, and even gold. I am not sure why manufacturers started with the aluminum parts, understand that they are cheap, but also would reduce efficiency. Not only that, they are destined to fail due to galvanic corrosion since the copper pipes are more "noble" than the aluminum.

Also, you have to realize that american labor can still compete with chinese labor, only a few years ago, you could still buy some air conditioners from the USA that were similar in price to chinese ones. It is not the unions that busted manufacturing, or cheap americans, but the greedy execs, and the rotten government with GATT, NAFTA, free trade, etc. Many americans were not aware of these issues at the time, but now they are realizing what was going on.

Plus, I keep reading about the newer air conditioners, and finding that many don't even work properly out of the box, let alone in a few years.

plus, note that cars made in mexico, like volkswagens, and some fords, are not that much cheaper than the US made fords and chevys. I bet much of it is corporate profit, though most ford engines/transmissions are still made in the USA(chaninging also), so the situation is more complex than that, I guess.

You can't even buy an american bicycle anymore...

http://www.dylanratigan.com/2011/01/06/19-facts-about-the-deindustrialization-of-america-that-will-blow-your-mind/

anyway, I do not want to get too off topic, let's try and figure out the air conditioner issue.

Are you an investor ready to drop a few million dollars into manufacturing, promoting, and distributing this equipment?

[dijit]

I am not sure why manufacturers started with the aluminum parts, understand that they are cheap, but also would reduce efficiency. Not only that, they are destined to fail due to galvanic corrosion since the copper pipes are more "noble" than the aluminum.



Planned obsolescence

[Agent_C]

People will gladly pay for 100% US made air conditioners.

Really? Even if it's twice the price and of equal quality to its' Asian or Mexican counterpart???

I don't think so... Patriotism is one thing; the basic tenets of commerce and economics is quite another.

A_C

[commerce48]

There are lots of American bicycle manufacturers. Perhaps 50 or more when custom builders are included. Most bicycle components are sourced overseas, although often designed here.

[rlmcameron]

Don't know that I agree with you on the unions. When the first $3000 of any American made car goes just to pay the retirement of UAW, that's not greedy execs.

I think unions had there place at one time, but now they just increase costs. If you are on an assembly line and you barely passed high school, you are unskilled labor. You shouldn't get paid $45 per hour to screw in a bolt. At the most, you should get $8.

My opinion maybe my own, but you won't convince me of anything else from what I've seen.

[air2spare]

Trane, Goodman/Amana, Rheem/Ruud, and Lennox are made in the US. I'm sure there are others

[compressor9000]

Thanks air2spare. That is nice to know. Do you know if the units are just assembled here, or are the actual components made here also? Plus, those are the bigger commercial units, correct? I was referring to the smaller units, though it is good to have bigger units made in the USA as well. Are all trane compressors made in the USA?
Most of these companies seem to use copeland compressors, though, and to me, the compressor is the most important part of the AC, and copeland seems to be making a lot of stuff in china, and other parts of asia. I read that york uses some bristol types, though bristol also focuses on very big air conditioners, though some of their compressors are in the 13,000 BTU range, they don't get smaller, though. would need a special order for that. Not trying to paint a gloomy picture, just want to know the facts, and you guys should know about these things since you have hands on experience and knowledge.

As a side:
It is true that some union workers are spoiled, but again, how is it that an american made car is not much more expensive, or is even cheaper than a foreign made, mexican/japanese car? In 2000, when we purchased a mercury sable(american made, basically a ford taurus), it was the cheapest car with the features of a 200 horse 6 cylinder engine, auto trans, leather, sun roof, etc, for 20,000 dollars. Note that the car is now 11 years old and has been reliable, though i've read bad stories about fords, I have read bad stories about hondas and toyotas as well. A comparable(6cylinder, auto, etc) mexican made (volkswagen) or japanese made car would have been MORE expensive at that time. If they can make cars at a competitive price, why not air conditioners. Though america is still pretty dominant in terms of large, and heavy manufacturing such as big air conditioners, airplanes, big engines(cat, etc), big trucks(mack, etc), and other quality products.
As far as bicycles are concerned, there are only a few specialty bike makers in the USA, if you go to any store, you will not find any made in the USA.

[BaldLoonie]

Trane, Goodman/Amana, Rheem/Ruud, and Lennox are made in the US. I'm sure there are others

Rheem makes all of their outdoor units, coils & air handlers to our south. Furnaces still made in Arkansas, gas packs are still US as far as I know.

Lennox makes their builder A/Cs and the Allied builder models south now. I hear there is plenty of room in that factory to make more.

Trane recip compressors have come north for about 10 years now. Scrolls made here.

Fan motors for everyone come from elsewhere as do capacitors, contactors, etc.

[VTP99]

Fan motors for everyone come from elsewhere as do capacitors, contactors, etc.

Ya... all the small parts that fail in no time. You replace them with the same junk and then replace them again the next year. :gah:

[air2spare]

Ya... all the small parts that fail in no time. You replace them with the same junk and then replace them again the next year. :gah:

you can get american made capacitors and they cost a little more but still cheaper than callbacks
....I'll even buy mexican made but never chinese if I have any other choice

[bmathews]

You have a very noble idea. Almost everybody hates that we are losing our manufacturing overseas. But I think you might be drinking a little too much kool-aide of somebody. If you think everybody or even a lot of people are going to pay more for something just because it's made in the USA. I think you need to find an a/c company and ride with a tech. I got news for you. Maybe 10% of people will buy something that costs more just because it says made in the USA. Given the opportunity, the average person is going to spend the least amount of money or pretty close to it, if it is going to perform as well or close. The line I get more than anything from anybody is that they are only going to be living there another 3-5 years and don't want to spend more than they have too. The 10% or so who plan on living in their house for a while, will usually spend a little more and upgrade to a higher seer with more options.

[billygoat22]

Thanks for the replies guys.
To dijit: no, I am not involved in manufacturing at all, though I have read, and studied these sorts of matters, thermodynamics, etc. Air conditioners are not that complex apart from the compressor, which is also not very complex.

Many window and wall units have "fixed orifice" valves which are just restricting tubes, anyway. You guys also have to realize that the manufacturing process of most of this stuff is automated, like compressors, valves, radiators, etc. It is not as though they are made by hand. All we really have to do is put the parts together- that is where the hands come into play. Apart from designing the chassis, and faceplate, which should be relatively simple, non-precision parts.
Furthermore, as I said the copper condensers would not only increase durability, but would likely increase EER as well since coppers thermal conductivity is higher than that of aluminum, and even gold. I am not sure why manufacturers started with the aluminum parts, understand that they are cheap, but also would reduce efficiency. Not only that, they are destined to fail due to galvanic corrosion since the copper pipes are more "noble" than the aluminum.

Also, you have to realize that american labor can still compete with chinese labor, only a few years ago, you could still buy some air conditioners from the USA that were similar in price to chinese ones. It is not the unions that busted manufacturing, or cheap americans, but the greedy execs, and the rotten government with GATT, NAFTA, free trade, etc. Many americans were not aware of these issues at the time, but now they are realizing what was going on.

Plus, I keep reading about the newer air conditioners, and finding that many don't even work properly out of the box, let alone in a few years.

plus, note that cars made in mexico, like volkswagens, and some fords, are not that much cheaper than the US made fords and chevys. I bet much of it is corporate profit, though most ford engines/transmissions are still made in the USA(chaninging also), so the situation is more complex than that, I guess.

You can't even buy an american bicycle anymore...

http://www.dylanratigan.com/2011/01/06/19-facts-about-the-deindustrialization-of-america-that-will-blow-your-mind/

anyway, I do not want to get too off topic, let's try and figure out the air conditioner issue.

manufacturers are switching to alum due to corrosion issues w/ copper- the contaninents attack copper, and not due to galvanic action.

[flange]

you can buy whatever you want here in the good ole usa, but you need to get past some of the sins of the past. our "leaders" have developed a society where low price is considered best option. this has happened over many years, and its one of the things that has driven manufacturing elsewhere. perception of cheaper labor making the same product drives low cost options. many people now choose the low cost option due to what society has become.

the ceo's et al, have created an atmosphere of demand for cheap goods. cheap electronics, cheap cars, what have you. in return, they have driven down wages to a point where its now the norm for two parents to work. wages have not followed prices. it used to be that a single working man could support his family ok, now, not so much. who is winning this whole thing? ceo's. follow their pay, and wonder what exactly is it that makes them so spectacular to have received massive increases in wages verses the common man? simple, they abuse the working man, its a fact.

As far as the whole union argument, and i will use the example posted of the 3k of every car to pay for pensions. maybe, just maybe, if people actually understood how it works it would be different. in the past, agreeemnts were made for x amount of dollars. that was/is the pay. the employees decided how the pay was to be divied up, so lets say a quarter to pay, a nickel to pension. great. then guess what? the companies decided they didnt have to contribute the nickel to the pension, and missed years of payments. now the are in arrears. not only that, the fund never earned interest on that nickel over the years so it suffers more. it was a cheap scam, and now they must pay because of erisa.

[mrbenz7]

you can get american made capacitors and they cost a little more but still cheaper than callbacks
....I'll even buy mexican made but never chinese if I have any other choice

I never buy chinese period unless I absolutely have to! I do think the Mexican Capacitors are of much much much better quality than the Chinese ones. Where do you get American Made Capacitors? Id rather go that route if I can!:det:

[VTP99]

I buy what my suppliers stock. Guess what ? Thay only stock non U.S. parts. Who has even more time to shop for U.S. parts ?

[billygoat22]

american radionics is usa caps. they make the turbo caps, but also make single and dual caps. I've seen some in new rheem equipment.

tried to find some usa made driver bits for my drill- only Sears had a pack w/ partly usa contents. everyone else had china or tiawan.

ended up getting some impact drill/driver bits since they were harder steel.

[RoseRx]

What are the pros and cons of each refrigerant?

[Shophound]

What are the pros and cons of each refrigerant?

In short, R22 is being phased out. R-410A is here to stay...for now. I've heard rumors it also may someday come under the gun, due to its alleged high GWP (global warming potential). So if it ain't the ozone, it's something else. At least that's what we're told. ;)

Performance-wise, 410 does better over 22 under normal operating conditions, but during extreme heat 22 has the edge. 410 within a comfort cooling refrigeration circuit operates about 1.6 times higher pressure than 22.

As for the OP, the infrastructure that once was the foundation for "made in America" is largely gone. Steel mills, for example. If you want to make a cabinet for an a/c unit and use American metal, where would you go get it? Sure, there may be some American foundaries still around...but if your product really took off, would they have the capacity to meet your demand?

Skill sets to make the cabinets. Go CNC? Where do the CNC machines come from? Are those American made? Did all the parts for them come from American sources?

Fan blades. Blower wheels. American metal made by American made machines operated by Americans?

At some point one would be forced to ask, "How far am I willing to go to create a truly American made piece of equipment? And what's my return on such an investment?"

[bluebinky]

If you are on an assembly line and you barely passed high school, you are unskilled labor. You shouldn't get paid $45 per hour to screw in a bolt. At the most, you should get $8.
I'd say more like $15 tops. $45? No way...

I had a front ball joint break loose on a car recently because the nut shattered (torqued to spec, BTW). Found it, and inside it looked like it was 50% dirt. Any guess as to where it came from?

Luckily, I had just exited the freeway...

[NCHeat]

YORK and LUXAIR are made in America (kasas and Oklahoma) Not sure where all the components come from

[wahoo]

NCHeat, assembled in America with the majority of parts made in foreign countries. Companies have had to "redefine" what Made in America means in last few years. Take a look at most of "American" made cars.....Assembled in America applies there too....sadly.:gah:

[huntingmkc]

All JCI residential Products (York, Coleman & Luxaire) meet the made in the USA criteria set by FTC & the US goverment. Some other manufactors meet the Manufactored in the USA but bigh difference between made in USA & Manufactored in USA. All JCI products are certified to have between 75-95% all USA parts in them which is well above other manufactors, on the complete line not just a few item. Rheem, Trane, Lennox, Carrier all manufactor some products in Mexico...All JCI products are made in the USA, either in Norman Oklahoma or Witchita Kansas

[garya505]

All JCI residential Products (York, Coleman & Luxaire) meet the made in the USA criteria set by FTC & the US goverment. Some other manufactors meet the Manufactored in the USA but bigh difference between made in USA & Manufactored in USA. All JCI products are certified to have between 75-95% all USA parts in them which is well above other manufactors, on the complete line not just a few item. Rheem, Trane, Lennox, Carrier all manufactor some products in Mexico...All JCI products are made in the USA, either in Norman Oklahoma or Witchita Kansas

That's one reason why I bought York. :grin2:

[allan38]

Just turn a bolt for $8? Sounds like you don't have any respect for your workers. The very wording you used is typical of a boss who thinks his work force is an easily replaceable disposable commodity. A intelligent, skilled empowered workforce will find ways of doing it faster and cheaper when properly motivated.
A guy who's just turning a bolt for $8 per hour... well you deserve what you get.

I've been told that undocumented day labor hanging around outside of Home Depot won't get in your truck for less than $10 per hour. That was the old price a couple of years ago. I don't know what the current rate is.

If you want someone with any skills to do the work you better pay more than I made delivering pizza. That was between 12 and 15 per hour, of course I had to pay my own gas and supply the car. Even with that, I averaged more than $10 per hour.

If you plan on paying $8 per hour, then you'd better plan on having it made in Mexico, the quality of the labor will be better for less. Of course that would defeat the entire purpose of the enterprise.

Skilled labor pays, it pays in speed, it pays in accuracy, it pays in ability to fix things when something screws up.

I want more things to be "Made in USA" because we're competitive in the marketplace, not because of politics or other manipulations. We couldn't compete with Japan for a long time because their cost of production was low. Their economy has grown and now it's cheaper to build Hondas in the US instead of Japan. Japan has been outsourcing to Malaysia and South Korea for a long time. In the 1980's, Mitisubishi memory chips used in my Vic-20/Commodore 64 computers were produced in Malaysia. Now India and China are the low cost producers and both are now having wage issues. They have inflation and the standard of living is rising.

I'd love to see a competitive A/C system wholly produced in the USA. If you can show your product is a good value then you have a chance if the numbers are right. Otherwise it's another Solyndra waiting to happen.