Trane XL19i Electric Hog

[vschlitz]

I have an Trane XL19i 5 ton heat pump brand new house about 3000 square foot with EWC UZC zone controller, two zones at the moment. Electric bills were running pretty consistent all through summer air conditioning around $75/month. Then came December's heat, the electric bill soared to $240, Jan $480, Feb $360. The house next to us approximatly the same square footage but has electric base board heat with significantly lower electric bill. Both are well insulated homes. I am only heating the first level, the other is two. So you can see my concern about the electric bills.

After looking through here I called the installer and voiced my concern. They came out and looked saying looks good. I have the Trane V/S air handler, and the Trane 500c stats. So I looked in the setup option #3 was set to 1 I changed it to 2, for 3/heat and 2/cool. I also had noticed prior to this change I only ever noticed two fan speeds. From what I've read here there is to be three speed.

The first stat has more wires connected to the EWC UZC controller since it is the master.

Is there any thing else I should be looking for?

[docholiday]

Is the heat pump shutting off outside? Sounds like something is shutting off the mechanical heat letting you run strictly on aux heat at colder temps. The heat pump should carry most of the load until it is extremely cold outside. Anytime the HP is on the fan should be at its higher speed, it can back down slightly for cooling but not for heat. The emergency heat mode has its own speed configured.

Might want to get a second look.

[vschlitz]

The thermostats for example when in adaptive recovery starts at 4:30pm it will put displace 89 degree air at a low fan speed for an hour with outside temp. around 40 degree. Then about a half hour before 6:00pm, which is when it is suppose to be at 70, the fan checks in high speed with 130 degree from the register and the stat says it’s running the aux. heat. Runs on high for a few minutes, then back to low fan until it reaches 70.

The contractor says the thermostats are controlling the stages.

[vschlitz]

The outside unit does not turn off. I put an amp meter on the first compressor which a 2.5 ton and it is has a reading, and no reading on second compressor 5 ton. When the fan kicks in high gear, the stat reads aux. heat, the outside unit switches from low compressor, to high and verified with amp readings.

[bama cool tech]

First, you may want to have another Trane certified dealer to check your system. Make sure they are trained in the installation of zone systems and the XL-19i. The XL-19i is a very good system if properly designed and installed correctly. The airhandler is variable speed i.e. runs @ 50% first min., 80% for 7 1/2 min. then 100% there after and will reverse these steps as it cycles off. The airhandler has to be programmed from the control board inside the airhandler. Adaptive recovery means that if you want a temp. of 70 deg.
at 7:00 a.m. and the thermostat is set for 65 deg. overnight, then the thermostat begins a gradual increase of temp. 90 min. prior to 70 deg. (wake setting) until in reaches 70. If it reaches 70 before 7:00 a.m., the next time the thermostat may start 80 min prior to 7:00 a.m. It teaches itself to achieve the most efficient way to reach wake setpoint as possible without long run times, conserving energy. It sounds like you may be having a zone problem. But its important that the installers properly program your system, too. Our Trane distributor will not sell zoning equipment or the XL-19i or XL-16i without proper training. Hope this is of some help.

[bama cool tech]

Also, make sure the airhandler is properly matched to the outside heatpump. Trane sent bulletins to dealers listing the proper equipment. They have been having problems with improperly sized airhandlers (undersized) with the outside heatpump.

[vschlitz]

I would like to get all my info together for when the contractor comes back.

So, would anyone here be able to tell me what airhandler I should have with the XL19i 5 ton?

Possibily dip stich settings inside the air handler?

[bornriding]

Reackon yul ever get your moneys worth out of your new high eff system ???

[Stamas]

Originally posted by bama cool tech
Also, make sure the airhandler is properly matched to the outside heatpump. Trane sent bulletins to dealers listing the proper equipment. They have been having problems with improperly sized airhandlers (undersized) with the outside heatpump.

We installed 2-031's on 2-2.5t 19 ODU's, when the 19's 1st came out. It was for 1 of my guy's parents house. No one caught it, not the Trane sales rep. who ordered the equip., not the Trane extended warranty dep who approved that, not me-(but my excuse was I was recovering from surgery and not with it), & not my guy who installed it for his parents. We told him that they would be the Guinea pigs, they got the equipment at cost, he installed it. What a pain that job was. Whole nuther thread-including the Aprilaire 5000 recall. We had to replace the air handlers and find homes for the old ones.
No good deed goes unpunished.

[Stamas]

Originally posted by Stamas
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bama cool tech
[B]Also, make sure the airhandler is properly matched to the outside heatpump. Trane sent bulletins to dealers listing the proper equipment. They have been having problems with improperly sized airhandlers (undersized) with the outside heatpump.

We installed 2-031's on 2-2.5t 19 ODU's, when the 19's 1st came out. It was for 1 of my guy's parents house. No one caught it, not the Trane sales rep. who ordered the equip., not the Trane extended warranty dep who approved that, not me-(but my excuse was I was recovering from surgery and not with it), & not my guy who installed it for his parents. We told him that they would be the Guinea pigs, they got the equipment at cost, he installed it. What a pain that job was. Whole nuther thread-including the Aprilaire 5000 recall. We had to replace the air handlers and find homes for the old ones.
No good deed goes unpunished.
BTW, we have had a few Trane units with coil sensors dangling.

[vschlitz]

Just got the replacement part for the Aprilaire 5000 recall, swapped out no problem.

I opened the air handler up, and noticed stage 1 heat no amp draw on the electric supplemental heat coils. But, when second stage is called, I noticed a 34 amp draw on the heat coils, which from my understanding the electric coils should only kick in on third stage request.

[beenthere]

Is the EWC set up right.
You can set how long the stat must be calling for heat before the aux kicks in.


What model EWC do youo have.

The 3000plus doesn't need a master stat.

[airpitt]

vschlitz,
your Air Handler should be a TWEO65. The main problem with mismatching air handlers has occurred with the 2.5 ton systems (31 or 40, which should be 40) so I don't think you'll have an issue but it's always good to check.

[vschlitz]

I contacted EWC currently waiting on them to put together a drawing. The way my system "EWC UZC3" was to be setup was the thermostat controls the stages and therefore allowing the adaptive recovery to occur which can save money. The problem with the UZC is everything is timer based, but it is flexible enough to allow either board or thermostat to control.

I was looking at the terminals in the airhandler, and noticed something odd. At the moment I'm not in front of it, but there was a connection to terminal W1, but a junper from W1 to W2 then to W3. I thought that was a bit odd.

[vschlitz]

Thanks Airpitt,

I'll check that when I get home this evening. So for mine, with the 2.5 ton as low compressor, and the 5 ton as the high I shoul have the TWEO65 air handler.

[beenthere]

Not sure about Trane, but if I wired a York that way, all the strips would come on needed or not.

With adaptive recovery on a zoned system, the strips tend to come on when you don't need them, so we don't set the stat to control the strips, we let the board do the job.

It doesn't sound like second stage heat pump is coming on, it sounds like its going right to the strips for the last half hour.

[vschlitz]

I took a temperature reading on the supply freon pipe and it was reading approx. 130 degrees, confirmed the high compressor is running also with amp draw, and low is off, but the heat strips are on also. Which is probably were all the electric is going. Now during the cooling season it working great, electric bill never over $75.

[mrssb]

vschlitz
Let me ask you a question, do they have a supply air sensor in use on your uzc3 zone control, if you are wondering upper right hand corner of the zone panel there is two terminals maked sa1 and sa2, are their wires connected to them? If so do me a favor and check what the heating limit potentiometer is set at. I have had a problem with a short cycling furnace because they had this set incorrectly at startup.I do not know if this will solve your problem but it could be you are short cycling your electric heat. What is the second stage timer set at. Make sure it is set at least to 20 minutes, this allows for the heat pump to actually start heating on first stage before you go into second stage of your heat pump. I see another problem with using a uzc3 for two stage heat pump applications, this control only gives you three stages of heat. This simply means you have two stages being used by your heat pump, and that leaves only one for your electric heat. It might be wise to consider using outdoor stats to control your electric heat strips. This would enable you to stage on your strip heat by outdoor temperature. It is easily done, and is usually not real difficult to do. Just some considerations for you to think about.

[vschlitz]

Yes, there is an SAS, and I believe it was set to 130. The timer on the UVZ is set for about 7 minutes. I questioned that and the contractor said that since the dip was set for the stat's to be controlling that timer didn't matter. I'm willing try something.

And yes, I agree I think the outdoor stats would be an improvement. If I interpret the schematics correctly there can be two, one for each bank of strip heaters.

Let me know what changes I can make.
Thanks.

[mrssb]

VSCHLITZ
I AM QUESTIONING WHETHER 130 IS ENOUGH. TRY SOMTHING FOR ME, AND CYCLE YOU ELECTRIC HEAT ON EMERGENCY AND SEE HOW LONG IT WILL RUN, OR SEE IF IT CYCLES OFF BEFORE THE STAT IS SATISFIED. IF MY THINKING IS CORRECT, YOUR ELECTRIC HEAT WILL CYCLE OFF BEFORE THE STAT IS SATISFIED. THIS IS EASILY RECTIFIED BY RAISING YOUR HI LIMIT SETTING ON THE UZC BOARD. I JUST SPOKE WITH EWC, AND THEY ASKED ME A QUESTION ABOUT WHERE THE SUPPLY AIR SENSOR IS LOCATED IN THE DUCT WORK? IT SHOULD BE LOCATED IN THE BLOWER HOUSING AREA AND NOT IN THE DISCHARGE AIR ABOVE THE HEAT STRIPS, BUT IF IT IS IT IS NOT A PROBLEM JUST MEASURE THE AIR TEMP WITH ALL STRIP HEAT ON AND SET THE HI LIMIT ACCORDINGLY. HOPE THIS HELPS. AS FAR AS OUTDOOR STATS ARE CONCERNED IT WOULD BE WISE TO DO THIS ANYWAY, ESPECIALLY WITH ALL YOUR HEAT COMING ON AT ONCE, EVEN IN DEFROST YOU WILL HAVE ALL OF YOUR HEAT STRIPS COMING ON, WHY???? IT IS A WASTE OF ELECTRICITY, ALL YOU ARE TRYING TO ACCOMPLISH IS TO TEMPER THE AIR WHEN IT IS IN DEFROST, NOT ACTUALLY HEAT THE HOME.

[vschlitz]

The SAS is mounted above the electric strips. So, I will try the experiment. So if the SAS limit is to low and I set it in emergency heat it should shut off before satisfying the thermostat, and is shutting off to do the fact that the 130 degree SAS was statisfied, correct.

What is the SAS's function anyway?

So if this goes the way we think it will. The heat pump when in second stage it generating temps above 130, heat pump shuts down, then electric strips, and or first stage heat. Which may explain the up and down fans speeds, sorry thinking out loud.

[mrssb]

TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, IT WOULD SHUT DOWN, IT ACTS JUST LIKE A HIGH LIMIT IN A FURNACE. IF THE TEMPERATURE EXCEEDS THAT 130 SETTING IT WILL SHUT IT DOWN. TO ANSWER YOUR OTHER QUESTION IT VERY WELL COULD EXPLAIN WHY THE FAN IS UP AND DOWN. I AM CURIOUS AS TO WHAT YOU WILL FIND WHEN OUR EXPERIMENT IS FINISHED. HOPE THIS INFORMATION HAS BEEN HELPFUL.

[beenthere]

mrssb:

Your giving good advise.

But using caps is yelling and impolite, and hard on the eyes.

Could you turn your cap lock off please.

[mrssb]

yes...consider it done.and please accept my apologies.

[bing0]

Where is the end to this mystery?
Come on....
I have to know what the outcome of this was..!

Bing0

[mark beiser]

Heh, realized after I posted that this was a 20 month old thread that someone resurrected, lol.