"system malfunction" in 58MVP

[jllee]

My Carrier 58MVP propane furnace is giving me problems big time. Every time I set the thermostat to over 68 degrees, within an hour I get a message on the infinity thermostat that says "system malfunction". I got the 58MVP/38TDB system, it's less than a year old. The dealer has come out to reset the furnace about 4 times since November. Same problem occurs within a day or two after they come out. I have been waiting three weeks for them to come back out this last time. Now the dealer says the furnace is getting too hot and they need to add another duct into the ductwork. The furnace continues to heat but I have to manually dismiss the notice everytime I change the thermostat. Also when the fan kicks on it sounds like it is always on high.

I have a ten year parts and labor warranty, but I'm wondering if purchasing this heating cooling system has been a mistake. Or if buying from this dealer was the mistake. I don't know if the dealer really knows what is wrong.

They have been out so many times I've considered making them a key to let themselves in.

Is the furnace safe operating in this manner?

[sweet]

Has anyone checked temp rise, manifold pressure, static pressure etc.

[git-r-dun]

What are they resetting? Off hand your furnace can be oversized causing your limit switch to trip (dealers fault if true). In addition, on propane, they have baffles you should, if necessary, build around your burners to prevent rollout, thus your rollout switches from tripping.

[jllee]

Don't know for sure. There has been from one tech that keeps coming out. He is the boss of the company he has spent a lot of time checking everything. At one point he had to delay coming back out for a few days waiting for a factory rep to advise him.

[jllee]

If furnace is oversized, what are my options?

[maxair]

Need to know temp rise?Gas press?Infinity is great stuff
dont get dicouraged,Infinity alows to check cfm at tstat
in system set up.Also adjust cfm.You can check fault
record at tstat.Infinity is good but has to be put in
correctly.Put in 4 or 5 a couple with zone system so
quiet cant here them run.

[git-r-dun]

Not recommending by all means, but a cheap and still safe way to resolve would be by removing a burner orifice and installing a plug thus lowering it's capacity. This would have to be the last burner tube meaning you'd have to relocate flame sensor one over. That again is not suggested and I'd verify if that is what it is, by checking all other stuff (gas pressure, fan cfm, discharge temp, etc)

[Edited by git-r-dun on 03-01-2005 at 10:04 PM]

[maxair]

Dont void your warranty by tampering with your furnace yourself.The more I think about it
its probably time for a second opinion.If hes putting
you off like that he may be trying to wiggle out of
warranty. Most warranty is only 1 year labor the rest is
just parts meens you go to pay after a year.Infinity will
actually help if have a kinda bad duct system so this may
be an oversized unit.Tell him you want to talk to the
carrier field rep and get him out there to take a peak.
If not call another company that deals carrier. That
should get there attention.

[mike d373]

The company I work for is factory authorized. If you aren't happy with furnace I think Carrier will give refund. I'm not sure how long they give or how much refund though.

[jllee]

I might get the second opinion or get the field rep to come out, do I call Carrier directly? I have been concerned the extended warranty I bought might only apply to this dealer. I will have to get out the contract I guess. Any cost within one year would be covered by any Carrier dealer right?

[git-r-dun]

As far as parts, yes, as far as labor, no... typically

[sweet]

I agree you need to get second opinion. The extra duct there talking about, is it supply air or return? If its return there concerned about Im guessing oversized if its supply, find another contractor. imho

[jllee]

I thought they meant supply, but I'm not sure. Will have to check with them. Think I'll call tomorrow. I might also call another dealer and tell them what is going on.

[markwolf]

Originally posted by git-r-dun
Not recommending by all means, but a cheap and still safe way to resolve would be by removing a burner orifice and installing a plug thus lowering it's capacity. This would have to be the last burner tube meaning you'd have to relocate flame sensor one over. That again is not suggested and I'd verify if that is what it is, by checking all other stuff (gas pressure, fan cfm, discharge temp, etc)

[Edited by git-r-dun on 03-01-2005 at 10:04 PM] Now this is two ridiculous comments in one post!First you tell the guy to "build around your burners to prevent rollout"and now you are telling him to plug off an orifice!Either one of these would void any warranty & more than likely damage the furnace.

[git-r-dun]

Hey markwolf, are you the by the book guy or just a hypocrite? Do you not jump out safeties to test if they are bad, or install a general purpose relay and rewire it to a bad relay board? Work with what you got and do what you gotta do to find a problem. It's not a boiler, what kind of damage can you do by plugging a tube? I'm all ears master... by the way, it's two possible solutions to two differant problems. You're smarter than that?

[Edited by git-r-dun on 03-01-2005 at 11:19 PM]

[sweet]

Best I can tell the original poster is not a pro. I agree we all do things to get the job done, but its a little beyond the posters experience (I presume).Id be careful giving to much info to the uninformed. In fact anything to do with the gas train is off limits.

[git-r-dun]

Specific tasks were not intended for homeowner to do but suggest in order to figure problem out. As far as baffles around burners go, that's a fact Mark and obviously you don't know what the hell I'm talking about, so I'd suggest for you to keep your p-trap shut

[41gasman]

GitrDone. First,this guy is a home
owner with a install thats less
than a year old.Suggesting that
he derate his furnace by removing
and plugging one of the burner
orfices.The last one you very
knowledgeably recommend.Than all
he needs to do is just relocate
the flame senser.Your other fine
suggestion of building a baffle
to prevent flame rollout.If flame
rollout was the problem. Jllee
should be pretty darn thankful
that there is a senser there
to shut down the furnace.
when one considers the ramifications
I have to give it to you though.
you did tell him to check
gas pressure, fan cfm, discharge
temp, etc.You know all that other
stuff.But still not to get all
technical on you.But most
technicians would check the
temperature "rise" not
discharge temperature.That
would be a rather useless
piece of information in this
application.Would it not?

Your comparison of the
suggestions you have made
to Jllee.To that of Markwolfs
use of a jumper wire is
just plain silly.You silly rabbit.
If you try just a little harder
you might get the opportunity to
come across in print as wellas
Fat eddy!

But really all puns and back stabbing
a side.Jllee has a real problem.
And is not getting the service
he paid for.He does have a nice
furnace and this sure should'nt
that hard for a descent tech
to diagnose.My first thought
was if the furnace is oversized
why is the problem showing its
ugly little face now. NOT right
after the install?
By the way grasshopper
when ever you are replying to
a homeowners thread.AND you feel
the need to start with......

"Not recommending by all means"

DON"T

I already know you are one of those
really WAY smart kinda guys.
So there is no need to post it
anyway.I know I know
41Gasman

[fat eddy]

Gasman what are you copying&pasting from?

Most of us read from left to right not up and down it reads slow with all the returns. just wondering

It also causes unecessary pages to build

[Edited by fat eddy on 03-02-2005 at 12:49 AM]

[git-r-dun]

OK, you guys are right as far as making those types of suggestions to a homeowner and not a fellow technician that has exhausted his options trying to find a problem and suspecting an oversized unit. Under the circumstance, it is a new and good unit and yes warranty shouldn't be jeopardized. It's too bad customers have to go through crap because every Joe Shmoe is an HVAC technician. Then we wonder why we're not trusted. As far as discharge temperature I'll rephrase. Temperature in heat exchanger compartment/ Temp rise, although if you're getting 140+ *F
out of your supply register you know something is not right, and that doesn't make it worthless info!

[Edited by git-r-dun on 03-02-2005 at 02:15 AM]

[git-r-dun]

On another note, to actually try to really help this homeowner, there are companies that replace a piece of equipment with another one of the same exact capacity. Problem with that, units in the 70s and 80's were around 60% to 70% efficient and now at worst 80%. So what your old 120,000 BTU furnace was puting out (example) can now be put out by a 90,000 BTU. May want to check invoice.

[mr big]

If dealer cannot fix the problem; call 1-800-Carrier.If you have a Carrier 10 year parts & labor warranty; it really does not start until the second year after installation. Installing dealer is responsible for first year labor. If your installing dealer is a Factory Authorized Dealer, he supposedly offers satisfaction guaranteed or your money back! If you are not satisfied, then I quess you need to ask for your money back.

[bornriding]

Aah, another high dollar, high eff, system not working right with all the extras that are needed to make it a high dollar system.Am I surprised?

[markwolf]

Originally posted by git-r-dun
Specific tasks were not intended for homeowner to do but suggest in order to figure problem out. As far as baffles around burners go, that's a fact Mark and obviously you don't know what the hell I'm talking about, so I'd suggest for you to keep your p-trap shut I suggest lurking for some time to learn before you post such dangerous solutions to problems."baffles"installed around burners would most definately affect secondary air.choking off the secondary air could result in delayed ignition/explosive conditions,or high levels of c.o. to be produced in the equipment putting the inhabitants in possible life threatening danger.I learned over twenty years ago before I even started an apprenticeship that blocking off an orifice & leaving one heat exchanger cell cold would result in condensation & rotting out of that cell.Your advice was not only wrong but DEAD wrong!

[jrbenny]

I don't think I even know where to begin on this ridiculous thread. My suggestion is that several of the alleged professionals in this thread need to return to Vo-tech and get some training before you kill someone with the your uneducated 'professional' advice.

For the OP, call Carrier. Get the distributor involved if the dealer won't fix the issue.

This will be my only post to this thread and the last one on HVAC-Talk. It didn't take long for this place to go the wrong direction. Goodbye.

[dash]

The problem is likely ,the install,not the Infinty System,we have alot of them installed and no problems.

Do as jrbenny suggested and call 1-800-CARRIER,and bet the dealer some help.

[htinglky]

with all the hoopla about oversizes, I see no where how big is the furnace or the size of the structure it is in?

[jllee]

1250 sq ft. Will have to get back to you on the furnace size. I believe it is a 2 1/2 ton 75,000 btu. It might be 85,000btu. Will have to check.

The dealer came out and installed another supply vent. I got another system malfunction the next day. They came back out and cleared the message the next day. I have not had any problems since. I have turned the temp up to 72 with no problems yet. It's only been less than a week though. If it does it again a Carrier Rep is coming out on the 22nd of this month.

[Edited by jllee on 03-15-2005 at 05:05 PM]

[jllee]

Carrier Rep came out after some delay and yet another "system Malfunction" (not surprised) near end of March.
I am repeating this from what the Carrier Dealer told me that the Rep told him. I had to work and could not be there.

He said the Carrier rep advised him to put another cold air intake in the house. He also said the rep said (and this was the bigger reason) because I kept the heat turned so low (58 degrees) and then came home and turned it up to 68-70 degrees the furnace could not handle that much of an increase without overheating. That part sounded like bull to me. I think an $8000.00 plus system should be able to handle that temp increase with ease. Maybe it will after the second cold air intake goes in. I am sometimes gone for several days and keep the heat turned low to avoid burning so much propane.

Anyway, they came out today (after another week and a half of delays) and installed the second cold air intake. I guess we'll see. This has been going on so long that now, it is warm enough to even not need any heat! And I'm down to 25% propane in my tank. I don't plan to buy anymore untill fall. Guess I'll crank it up to 70-72 and watch for the "system malfunction" again.

Everybody keep your fingers crossed and hope I don't run out of propane until it is finally fixed.

[Edited by jllee on 04-19-2005 at 05:57 PM]

[dash]

Your problem is definately your duct system,when it's finally fixed ,The Infinity will be fine.

I know it's hard to understand,but your old system,assuming the same size,never could have worked correctly.If you had bought something other than Infinity,you'd likely still have the same problems and not know.Infinity is just a "tattletale " on bad duct systems.

Post your model numbers,and we can tell you more.

Assuming it's and MVP80----,it requies more cfm on high stage heat ,then for three tons of A/C(you thught it was a 2.5 ton,but TDB,doesn't come in 2.5 Ton).

When it's in set back,it may never go in to high stage gas,when you jump the set point several degrees it will go to high stage.This is why they indicate it wouldn't be as big a problem if you didn't set it up so many degreees at one time.However you should be able to do that ,so it's really a mute point,they are likely just trying to make you feel a little responsible,which you are not.

If it only goes to high stage when you set it up several degree,it's likely oversized,but with the two stages ,that shouldn't be a problem.If it's oversized,the correct size may have worked fine on you duct system.Lots of maybes.

Do you know what size the old one was?That would tell a lot about the size.

[jllee]

There was no old system per say. I just had baseboard heat and window units for AC. Will post serial numbers tomorrow.

[dash]

Originally posted by jllee
There was no old system per say. I just had baseboard heat and window units for AC. Will post serial numbers tomorrow.

Then if they designed the duct system,it's all on them,and that's hard to do with a variable speed fan.


What type and size of filter did they install??

[jllee]

Old intake and filter looks to be about 24"x24", disposable type.
New intake and filter looks to be about 18"x18" also disposable type . Would have to measure be sure. I am at work now.

[merchvac]

Just wandering, has anyone verified that the correct propane orfices are installed?

[markwolf]

58 deg is pretty low I would be concerned about condensating in the primary cells at such a low setback.

[dash]

Originally posted by jllee
Old intake and filter looks to be about 24"x24", disposable type.
New intake and filter looks to be about 18"x18" also disposable type . Would have to measure be sure. I am at work now.


Old versus new,I thought there wasn't an "old" system???

[David-M]

O.K. I think the homeowner gave the best clue when he mentioned the tank is 25% full!! This is not enough pressure when the unit goes to high fire! I had a Coleman mobile home eat my lunch til I asked the homeowner to refill the tank. Of course, this could also be wrong orifice. I've seen too many that still had the NAT orif still installed, and overheated badly.

[tinknocker service tech]

wow long post
ok if a furnace is showing a saftey problem then there is a problem. 58 to 72 should not set off a saftey unless something is not right. have your propane co. come out and chech the pressure in the lines. this should be done at least twice a year. propane is affectect by tempature and can drop in the cold and raise in the warmer weather. just my opioun. have them check the pressure in the furnace also.
this will rule out gas problems
next count your supply registers and your return grilles
give us the size of the return. measure your supply duct and return duct and the size of the round pipes going to the registers. than give this info to the carrier rep and he can tell you what is needed to be done.
i think you may have a air flo problem and this has to be rectified. did the rep do a static presure test or a duct size caculation. you have stated they put in a supply and need to install more return. you gave two filter sizes now tell us is the intire system new or is this a retrofit system. give us something to go with here

[danj]

It sounds like Dash and tinknocker are right --air-flow. One way to check is to lock the unit in low fire turn your t-stat up like you normally do and see if you get a malfunction. If you don't get a code(malfunction) then you can be pretty sure it's airflow.(Not enough flow for high fire)

[Edited by danj on 04-22-2005 at 10:31 PM]

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by jrbenny


This will be my only post to this thread and the last one on HVAC-Talk. It didn't take long for this place to go the wrong direction. Goodbye.

Its sad really, I am right behind you JR. :(

[beenthere]

To the OP, next time your contractor comes out, tell them you want them to check temp rise.


I don't care how big of a return grille they put in, if the return duct is too small, it will still starve for air.

If you post M & S number of your furnace, along with the sizes of your supply and return trunks, and number and size of supplies, we might be able to give you a clue as to what is wrong.




Don't go J R.

[jllee]

When I listed the "old" cold air return I should have refered to it as the"first" cold air return installed. It actually measures 20"x20" the second cold air return installed on top of the furnace measures 16"x16".

The tank is at 25% now but the problem started back when the tank was full, at the beginning of the heating season.

We had a cold snap here and I let the temperature get low (58 then turned it up to 73) several times over the weekend. No problems! Seems the second cold air intake installed fixed things.