Looking at LON - Need Input

[smokies]

I work for a Trane "strategic partner" and Honeywell ASC contractor. The Trane and Honeywell systems are very limited in stand alone applications where remote access is needed.With Trane I need a BCU and H-well LCBS is just so limited in its abilities.I have plently of experience with H-wells and Trane version of LON (what a joke). I started to looking at Echelon on the Web and just wondering how difficult the iLON100 is to setup and LONmaker sofware is for programming.About how much does it cost? I need an inexpensive, extremely flexible, and fairly easy web based and/or phone accessible system for HVAC control and equipment monitoring in remote CELL sites that have Web access. Looked at BACnet but the web doesn't seem to be there for it yet on the cheaper applications. Any input would be appreciated on if LON is the right direction to go if theres another.

Thanks

[qtip]

http://www.michiganjeepers.com/evefiles/graemlins/popcorn.gif

[sysint]

Well- I think you may be looking at it wrong.

You could route the sites (how many)? and now the cost of a management tool is low. It's one big site or multiple sites through a similar channel.

Or, any ilon100 is considerably less expensive than any BCU, and you are open to access control and other functions. The ilon100 has RNI and dialup.

Depending on the network, I'd be looking at Loytec routers/switches or even ilon600's. You could then manage the graphics either web or with an inexpensive software like Circon Visual Integrator.

With the new CARE, you could use that. My preference has been Circon VI and ilon100's. Work very well together, especially if you get into camera and access control.

You could even have multiple 100's and a system server with a bunch of different manufacturers stuff.

[valdelocc]

I'serviced a plant that uses auto-matrix controls,The auto pilot system is very simple and you could do almost anything with it. I' had bad experiences with andover controls stay away from that set up if you can.

[davem]

As an Auto-Matrix dealer, I can tell you that the Auto-Pilot setup is too expensive for a cell site setup. The software is expensive, and its Web abilities are not very refined - the hardware required at each site would be prohibitively expensive.

With the expert LON assistance available on this forum, there's no doubt that a LON hardware solution will be your best bet.

As for my $0.02, we were able to come up with an economical cell site solution (unfortunately, the project got the axe before we got to implement it...) with Tridium's JACE's, the least expensive of which come with enough onboard I/O to monitor temperatures, open the gate at the bottom of the hill, read the door contact, etc...With only 6 inputs and 4 digital outs, it may or may not be enough for temperature control AND opening the gate, but it was sufficient for our scope.

Now, given that Tridium dealerships are expensive, an alternative might be if you could get the JACE's with the Honeywell WEBS label...depends on how your ASC contract is set up. Your Honeywell LON experience need not be set aside; after all, a cell site is a fairly rudimentary control project - the remote access is the only daunting aspect of it.

Again, just my $0.02. (Now if I could just find qtip's cool little popcorn muncher...)

[sysint]

These cell sites always seem to be the ideal little automation system and I never see anyone implement. They never want to commit. I had tried this type of thing in the 90's with nothing more than a single test site.

[lonboy]

Though I'm a little biased - I would think the iLON100 would be the most cost effective solution. For around $795 you can get an iLON100 with optional built-in 56k phone modem - no need to deal with modem compatiblilty issues. It also includes 2 hardware digital inputs and 2 digital outputs. The iLON is also GPRS modem compatible and you can connect a variety of wireless modems directly if a phone line is not available.

Depending on you're HVAC requirements you'd have to add temperature control devices and you have lot's of choices - Honenywell, Circon, Distech, etc. Go to http://www.engenuity.com to check prices. I'd guess that you could find the necessary devices for a small cell site at less then $500. You'll also need an LNS network management tool such as LonMaker or Circon's NI. LonMaker runs around $1200 but you only have to buy one copy onetime to use for all your jobs all the time.

So, now you've got about $1300 in hardware costs, $1200 in software, and we'll be liberal and estimate $1000 in installation and programming labor for a total direct cost of $3500 - at a 50% gross profit the customer's looking at around $7000 per site. The more sites, the less the cost as the software cost get's spread over the entire job. Tell your customer it's cheap insurance if the AC goes down in the summer time and his expensive cellular equipment gets damaged.

The iLON100 can be easily programmed from it's web interface to generate temperature alarms and provide dialout notification via email which may include text messages to cellphones. You can use the data log feature to trend operating conditions and use the information for predictive maintenance. Plus, the RNI (remote network interface) allows you to access the network remotely so you can sit at home watching the game while changing the temperature alarm setpoint at a site miles away. There's also a ton of other things the iLON can do such as SOAP and XML, energy and flow metering, protocol analysis, scheduling, and custom web pages.

I'm tempted everyday to put the tools back on again! But then I remember that old saying,

Those who can - do
Those who can't - teach
Those who can't do either - manage!

Kompai,
lb

[amigo]

As mentioned by lonboy, iLON100 is a good option, but at close to $800 per iLON100, it usually has killed my projects if you have too many sites.
my 2cents



[Edited by amigo on 02-21-2005 at 01:49 AM]

[sysint]

Humor me a little Amigo- What do you use in place of a 100 that has a better price point?

E- Qtip's probably scribbling down names right now being stuck with those overpriced BCU's.... :eek:

[Edited by sysint on 02-21-2005 at 07:04 AM]

[smokies]

How are the classes at Echelon?

Worth taking?

[amigo]

Sysint, you have a point there. 100 is probably the best choice.
It is just that when the customer gets hit with the cost of implementation of a web enabled site $7K as mentioned by lonboy, they are no longer interested and they go with a non-communicating site/a proprietry solution or no webserver capibility.
That is my experience anyway.
For now it is routers and central server for me.
peace

[qtip]

Originally posted by sysint
E- Qtip's probably scribbling down names right now being stuck with those overpriced BCU's.... :eek:

[Edited by sysint on 02-21-2005 at 07:04 AM] [/B]

Nope, I just enjoy your one-sided coments....http://www.michiganjeepers.com/evefiles/graemlins/stickpoke.gif

[lonboy]

Smokie,
Are the Echelon classes worth taking? Absolutely! They're delivered on the West Coast in San Jose and on the East Coast outside of Baltimore/DC. Lot's of hands on exercises and very knowledgeable instructors. In SJ the course is held at the Echelon office and you'll have access to all the engineers and product managers. Plus, I know the instructor in Md takes the class out one night for a crab feast! Check out the course descriptions at http://www.echelon.com/training
Cheers,
lb

[sysint]

'Cmon Q - I'm fair. I like some Trane stuff dislike other stuff.

Here's tossing a bone to you... Trane does a better job at controls than York, Lennox, and Carrier.

How did I do?

[qtip]

Agreed...Just giving you a little smack..http://www.michiganjeepers.com/evefiles/graemlins/slap.gif

[sysint]

Really Q- that BCU has got to be on the way out. It's just not competitive.

I have 746 NVE's (you can cringe Lonboy) running out of a single ilon100 on one project. (thanks to e2 it flies) Not including the 300 other points internal to the box gives me over 1000 points with scheduling, trending, alarming, web, dialup and mail.

Add the web server to the BCU and how much does that cost? :eek:

Amigo- spill -what do you know?

[amigo]

Over 1000 points stuffed into an e2, eh!
I am glad you are the guy that is servicing the site and not me.
I have been too deep into the ilon and have seen its ups and downs.
I agree that e2 is 1000% upgrade from version 1.01.
I agree that it gives you good bang for the buck.
I agree that it will never die and can only get better.

But in some applications it is just too flaky and unsecure.
Do some heavy soap calls to it, and you will see.
Some of my customers have a short fuse and change their password so often that it is like coffee breaks for govt dudes.
In those applications, I rather dump a custom code into something like Adept's gadget gateway and take my chances that way.

For stuff that people put BCU on, iLON100 does circles around any BCU, any day.

[sysint]

Amigo- I wish you could allocate resources on it... I understand what you are saying with heavy SOAP calls. Hopefully soon there will be an ilon2000....

We have been having some scheduling issues....

The configuration plugins need to be seriously redone on it.

Looks like I have to check out Adept.

[seaboard]

Novar IQ-SBS would work for this application. The hardware costs are low, you can commision a system in 30 minutes, and there's no software. You can access the system using Windows Explorer. It is a LON system.

[sysint]

..But is the Novar (Iconics or Intellution- right?) system LNS?

[seaboard]

Originally posted by sysint
..But is the Novar (Iconics or Intellution- right?) system LNS?

You've lost me! What are you asking?

[seaboard]

Here's a link to some info on the SBS system.

http://www.novarcontrols.com/iq-sbs.html

[sysint]

Yea, Everyone doing what Circon has had for over 12 years...

Sea- Novar bought some outfit's LON line. Now Novar is subsequently sold into Honeywell.

[seaboard]

You're right, Novar didn't develop the SBS line. They saw it at a trade show and liked it so they bought it. It was developed by a guy that left American Automatrix. What I like about it is you can wire up a system. Turn it on, and program the whole damn thing in just a few minutes.

[amigo]

Okay Sea, I respect that you like SBS and it has worked for you, but this one I got to express my opinion on:
Novar bought a company called Innovex Technologies. Innovex had a self installing/configuring system with a touch screen interface (LCI) where you downloaded innovex device templates into it and it would register these devices as they got commissioned on the network.
LCI is like a proprietory management tool device, and it is definetly not LNS.
Then novar got a company http://www.logisync.com to build a LON to Ethernet/IP gateway http://www.logisync.com/RXN4_Datasheet.htm so the system could be accessed through IP.
This sytem is flaky as hell and one of the worst LON bastardizations that I have ever seen. "This is my opinion"
Try adding a third party device to LCI. Good Luck!!
LON is meant to used by all and open to all and not a certain greedy manufacturer.
It is because of systems like these (50%) and Echelon's god like attitude (50%) that LON has left a bad taste in some people's mouth.
Any decent SI should not touch SBS.

[seaboard]

I was simply saying the SBS product would work for the particularly application specified and at a low cost point. You are correct, although LON technology is at work in the communication mode, other LON products cannot be added to the network and recognized by the LCI. You can access from anywhere with Explorer without any special software.
We've had our share of problems with the system also. If a couple of devices lose power you play hell communicating with the other devices as it tries too hard to reach the down devices. We've also got other problems that nobody at Novar has answers to. We were used to the Logic One product which was bulletproof.

[sysint]

Innovex - Thanks Amigo.

Anyway, LON is really solid if done right.

[seaboard]

I found out Friday that Novar sold the little LON line back to Innovex's creator's last year; nobody bothered to tell us despite our installation being the single largest there is!

[sysint]

I met that guy and his wife at the AHR show in Chicago. He is a character. Looking at BAPI wireless. I don't know the status of it. Maybe it's http://www.innovextech.com now.

[amigo]

Interesting,
Sea, my suggestion would be:
If you think that you can do all aspects of your projects using the innovex stuff then stick with it.

If you think you will need/want to mix and match products and manufacturers stay away from innovex.


I think Novar is doing a big push with their Trend/Excite products to penetrate into markets that are price sensitive and logic one will not do.

[seaboard]

Originally posted by amigo
Interesting,
Sea, my suggestion would be:
If you think that you can do all aspects of your projects using the innovex stuff then stick with it.

If you think you will need/want to mix and match products and manufacturers stay away from innovex.


I think Novar is doing a big push with their Trend/Excite products to penetrate into markets that are price sensitive and logic one will not do.

We are officially out of the controls business now. Our sister company is the controls company now and we only do mechanical work. It's a weird relationship we have.

[seaboard]

Originally posted by sysint
I met that guy and his wife at the AHR show in Chicago. He is a character. Looking at BAPI wireless. I don't know the status of it. Maybe it's http://www.innovextech.com now.

Here's a link to the guy's I'm talking about.

http://www.innovextechnologies.com/