13 SEER by 2006: ready?

[marauderx]

So I saw this release from the DoE...

http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings/appliance_standards/news_detail.html/news_id=6781?print

...which says:

"DOE Will Enforce 13 SEER Air Conditioner Standard
April 02, 2004

DOE announced on April 2nd that it will enforce a seasonal energy efficiency rating (SEER) standard of 13 for residential central air conditioners. This standard, which will apply to central air conditioners starting in January 2006, represents a 30 percent increase in energy efficiency compared to the 10 SEER standard that applies to models sold today. DOE had promulgated a 12 SEER standard in 2002, but earlier this year, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit ruled that the department had done so improperly.

"At this point, all parties have had their day in court," Assistant Secretary for Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy David Garman said. "In the interest of giving consumers and industry the regulatory certainty they need, it is time for the government and for private parties to stop litigating, and start working towards complying with the 13 SEER standard." See the DOE press release.

The air conditioner manufacturing industry had challenged the 13 SEER, which DOE had originally issued in January 2001, but recently withdrew its challenge. "A lot has changed in three years," said Geraud Darnis, president of Carrier Corporation, in a March 12th press release. "Given the choice between 10 SEER and 13 SEER, we think the industry should support higher efficiency." See the Carrier press release."


So, who's ready for 13 by 2006? Think the cost will come down enough by then?

[Irishmist]

I continue to be somewhat baffled by all the hub bub about the 13 seer minimums. Anyone actively engaged in HVAC should already be familiar with the 13 seer units so that shouldn't come as a surprise. I you break it down to it's most basic, the government is forcing us to provide our customers a more efficient product. Remember when they did away with the 67 - 70% furnaces? Screaming through the streets....widespread panic. We managed to survive that, and the only ones who got caught were those individuals who thought they would "corner the market" and bought up all the old standing pilot furnaces. What I remember happening is that they just wound up with a lot of outdated equipment they had trouble getting rid of. Sort of backfired on them. WE, in the industry, should be up to this task without any concern whatsoever. What is the major concern anyway? Just like with the furnaces the public is initially upset because they have had a choice taken away, but NOT by us. I wish I could still buy a new gas-guzzling mustang for $6500 but those days are gone as well.

If someone is not "ready" or "prepared" for this eventuality, then shame on them! It is not some small segment of the industry that this will occur in, but across the board. To be honest, I welcome the 'help' from our legislators to sell our customers a better product.

[BaldLoonie]

In many areas of the country, 13 SEER is an economic burden with no economic payback. It would be like banning all but 93% gas furnaces. Would it make sense for dash & Airman to be selling 93% furnaces in their steamy climates? Not any more than forcing people in cool, short summers to spend hundreds to get a 13 SEER. But that's the way it is.

Chances are between the high cost & the size of the evaps that don't fit many places, I think next year we'll be seeing more high side changeouts creating horrible mis-matches that may not even work and certainly be far from 13 SEER.

I could see getting to the 80% / 10 SEER minimum but pushing high SEER or high AFUE product in areas where it doesn't make economic sense doesn't seem right.

So what's next? Banning stoves with calrod elements to force customers to buy a "better" stove? Banning standard $150 TVs to force customers to buy a high res stereo monitor so they have a "better" product?

Or if we're that into saving a few barrels of oil, let's ban vehicles that don't get 20 mpg in the city! That would save much more than banning 10 SEER A/C units.

Or lets ban selling just an outdoor unit, require a matching evap be bundled with it and a law that it must be installed as a matched system.

[mo-flo]

right on.....

[rsmith46]

13 SEER is about the limit for R-22, wonder how long it will be before manufacture's just switch completly to 410a.
Using 13 SEER R-22 on old coils is bad enough, what about when Apt complex's try using 410a and using old coils.

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

Originally posted by rsmith46
13 SEER is about the limit for R-22, wonder how long it will be before manufacture's just switch completly to 410a.
Using 13 SEER R-22 on old coils is bad enough, what about when Apt complex's try using 410a and using old coils.

Trane's new 15 SEER A/C is R-22...

[jrcase]

Will the new high seer units cool as well as the old tried and true 10 seer? I was told that the larger coils put out air that is not as cold as smaller coils. Is that true?

[andserco]

How many 13 SEER heatpumps are going to be installed on old evaps-- pressures in heating will be wonderful!!! How long will the manuf's keep supplying compressors to the hacks....

[mark beiser]

Originally posted by rsmith46
13 SEER is about the limit for R-22

Trane goes up to 19.5 SEER with R-22. ;)

[bornriding]

13 Seer systems cost ho's much more. They are the ones that will have to foot-the-bill, so to speak. With no guarantee that they will save over what extra they spend.

Have 13+ seer units been proven to last, without much more expensive repair bills??

I'd rather have a ten seer that lasts 20 years than a 13 seer that lasts 12 or 13 years.

[billva]

irish,

just wait until you are forced to buy your new hybrid work van for an additional ? dollars. (thousands, i presume, for the simple fact that a toyota prius is basically a corrola with batteries, but twice the cost).

you will need to log alot of miles to make up the cost difference and probably won't have the truck that long.

the thirteen seer mandate is great for manufacturers, distributors, and dealers. but terrible for the homeowner.

do you really think politicians know what is best for our households? financially and logically?

[hydronicsman]

I kind of like it myself. It makes the playing field a little more level. You try to offer some decent stuff, and the low bidder comes in with 10/11 SEER builders stuff. Some people only see numbers.

I suppose some day 13 SEER will be the "builders" level, and who knows what will be the high falutin' model offerings!

[Irishmist]

This discussion begs the question: If there is this much resistance to the mandate of 13 seer equipment minimum, does that mean there are some of you who don't sell the higher efficiency equipment? I admit this is a BIG step up in minimum seer, but why wasn't there the same outcry when the 10 seer minimum went into effect? There seems to be a greater resistance now, than then. Why is that? Do many of us still wish for the days of 6.0 seer units? And if those were still available, would we feel the same way if the minimum were raised to say, 9.0? I don't for a minute think the lads in Congress are in any way experts on energy efficiency, but we can either adapt to these changes or get ready to endure a lengthy period of major frustration. the industry I see really getting hot (no pun) over this is the RNC. We know those builders hate to pay more for ANYTHING!

[Irascible]

Originally posted by BaldLoonie
In many areas of the country, 13 SEER is an economic burden with no economic payback. It would be like banning all but 93% gas furnaces. Would it make sense for dash & Airman to be selling 93% furnaces in their steamy climates? Not any more than forcing people in cool, short summers to spend hundreds to get a 13 SEER.Yep.

[miami mike]

Originally posted by BaldLoonie
Banning standard $150 TVs to force customers to buy a high res stereo monitor so they have a "better" product?

I think they have already started.

"Don't feel like dealing with HDTV yet? You may not have a choice. The Federal Communications Commission says it is phasing out analog TV transmission in 2006. At that time, you won't be able to use your old set without a digital-to-analog converter".-Popular Mechanics

[rsmith46]

Originally posted by mark beiser

Originally posted by rsmith46
13 SEER is about the limit for R-22

Trane goes up to 19.5 SEER with R-22. ;)
I stand corrected, I'm not a trane dealer. I know 14 or 15 with variable speed and TXV with R-22 on high end equipment. But thats a very small market share of equipment sold, seems manufactures would just go to 410 and phase out the 22 stuff earlier than mandated.

[duct dr]

Where I work we're already pushing the 13 SEER units and customers so far seem to be very happy with them. We're a Trane dealer, and yes Trane has a 19.5 SEER unit using R22, the XL19i. But R22 is on the way out. 2010 will be the end of R22 systems. I installed an XL16i (16 SEER) 410a system with a variable speed air handler in a house last spring, went back to do her fall check up and she showed me her power bills since the inatsll. They actually decreased. I cant understand how someone can say that a higher SEER unit will cost more to operate.

[rsmith46]

The higher SEER R-12 units with fixed metering don't dehumidify well but they cool fast. Does 410 dehumidify as well as 10 SEER systems? I've heard its better but haven't had much experience yet myself.

[brooklynjon]

"a toyota prius is basically a corrola with batteries, but twice the cost"

I just junked my Corolla when my new Prius arrived. The 1994 Corolla cost $13,700. The 2005 Prius cost $21,500. The Prius is a vastly superior vehicle, not counting the improved fuel efficiency. Even if it ultimately costs more to drive the Prius, it's still a much better car.

In the long run, with a little global warming, there will be fewer places with short summers, and those 13 SEER units will seem like a better idea than they do now. But I agree that it would be nice if the government did not ram this down our throats.

[trbleshootr]

do you folks know why our founding fathers put the 2nd ammendment in the constitution? It wasnt to protect us from the British. Higher efficiencys are better for all of us if we are not hamstrung by bueocracy. Lets take a look at the energy providers.But we need to work together

[AllTemp]

Our state legislaton has implemented duct testing be done with evry system installation or change out...

And this must be done by an independent agency, go figure tht cost....

Additionally effect this January our local municipality is requiring a matchign indoor coil change out, go figure...

we already have been required to insulate our linesets with 3/4" wall with UV protection, before you know it we will be isnulating our linsets all the way to the stub on the compressors...

[marauderx]

Originally posted by AllTemp
Our state legislaton has implemented duct testing be done with evry system installation or change out...

And this must be done by an independent agency, go figure tht cost....



For residential?? Which state are you in? Are you sure that's not just commercial and large residential (condos)?

[bornriding]

I am a small-time contractor. Never installed anything above a 12 seer as I have never been convinced that anything higher would be worth the money to my homeowners.
Have always tried to what what i thought was best for my customers. Alas, when the 'gods' above require it, then I must conform.

The 13 seer standard ? Is it an absolute law now, or does it still have to be voted on or something.

I know that the r-22 decline in 2010 is not law yet, but must still be passed as law

[Irishmist]

born riding, better brush up on the legislation that has ALREADY BEEN PASSED. This is not just idle conversation, but is just as much "etched in granite" as the demise of the 70% afue furnaces.

I am also AMAZED at your statement about not being able to justify the higher efficiencies to your customer. Are you being truthful with us here.... or is it just much easier to make the sale using lower efficiency, less expensive equipment? Sorry to hammer, but don't you believe your customers have a right to as efficient a system as possible?

If we take the path of least resistance, are we really doing justice to our customer? It sounds like you are one that will be taken "screaming and kicking" to the next level. I am curious, exactly when DO you belive it is in your customer's best interest to invest in high or higher efficiency equipment?

All temp: personally I would rather have control of ALL aspects of my job, from the electrical to the duct testing. If we have to think broader than what we do now, then that's what we have to do. Wouldn't you much rather be a one stop shop for your customer? We may have to ease out of our comfort zones, but that's just a result of our industry constantly evolving. If these areas are to become part and parcel within our industry, then we better learn to respond in a proactive fashion. It's gonna happen and is already happening in some markets, so we can grumble and moan all we want to, and get left in the dust in the process.

We, my friends, better start thinking WAY outside the box, or we will be a fatality of the process rather than an active participant in it.

I have used the illustration before. Going to a new $500+ custom home and having the homeowner ask me why in the world an 80% afue furnace was installed, when the 30 year old home he just left had a new high efficiency unit he had installed. He really felt short changed. I know, I know, our "friend" the builder did not want to provide a "complete custom package" and shortchanged his customer with what he requested from the hvac contractor.