Question for home owners

[fixit50]

Here is a question for home owners , We as business owners and techs would like to know what you look for in an hvac company, what do you expect, for instance, fast service, lower prices, clean and honest techs, name brand, When you call where do you find them? yellow pages? newspaper adds, flyers? Your input on this can help us to serve you better.
Thank you.

[pstu]

Believe it or not, SKILLS is the thing I find in greatest shortage. And plain old craftsmanship. It would be great in my eyes to hear more pitches for blower door testing, duct sealing, more willingness to consider the "V" part of HVAC. I think there is a potential for getting "up-market" by offering tests, measurements and reports which meaningfully tell the HO what's going on. Being able to make a smooth referral when it's something you don't consider exactly up your alley (e.g. I see eyes glaze over when I try to talk about humidity issues), would be a plus.

Humble things like doing ESP measurement, after explaining to the HO what it means, I think would help sell many ductwork improvements. Since 3M filters are supposed to be the HVAC guy's nemesis, would it be too much to procure and deliver some of the *right* kind as part of a year-round service contract? After all most HO's just want to not think about HVAC issues.

I think phoning the HO a couple extra times per year, fishing for feedback and problems you can help with, might pay off.

Hope you can work some of these into a business plan.

Best of luck -- P.Student

[fat eddy]

As a homeowner,

What I look for in an HVAC contractor is trust if you can't trust them to be fair, there isn't anything else that will make me consider him for my business and no matter what other replies you get, trust and relationships are what grow a business.

[zoom38]

What I look for in an HVAC contractor is by far HONESTY and trust. Before I do anything including searching for an HVAC contractor I do research to familiarize myself with it so I have an idea what to look for and what questions to ask. I am a knowlegable home owner who may ask a question that you can't answer off of the top or your head, so tell me that you will look into it and not give me a half-assed answer that may or may not cover the question just to make it look like you are infallible. We all come up against something new every now and then in our professions that we might not know. In your case that is what this site is about. I had four HVAC contractors come in and two never called me back. I believe I scared them off when I began talking about heat gain calcs and to be honest I don't think they knew what I was talking about. They have this rule of thumb formula to go by and quite frankly I don't buy into it. My home is different from my neighbors (windows, insulation, siding etc) so don't tell me I need the same equipment. The third HVAC contractor I had come in seemed somewhat knowlegable but his price was out of this world. The fourth contractor seemed quite knowlegable but was too much of a pushy salesman. Needless to say I havn't found an honest contractor that I feel I can trust yet. This is why so many of us home owners become diy'ers, this just happens to be a job i'm not interested in tackling.

The following is what I look for in order of preference:
1)Honesty & trust
2)Quality workmanship(guarantee your labor)
3)Knowlege
4)Experience
5)Price
Yes price is last, unless you come in with a ridiculously high estimate of 25% or more over the next guy. I will pay a little more for good quality workmanship but there is a limit.

[Roncool]

Zoom 38 there is the problem to what you are saying. I would like to know how much each of the items on your list is worth paying for, and what price is out of this world. The truth is of course people are looking for most of the things on your list.

The truth is they are not willing to pay for them. It sounds to me you are not eather. When I bid on jobs, people seem to be concernd about two things how much and how long. If I do great work and I am the high bidder, I will not get the job, as a matter of fact I will not get 80% of what I bid on. Thats is probully why that guy has what you call out of this world pricing. The key to me is as a sales person is to make you feel comptable with me, to assure you that we will do the best job we can, and two convince you heat load or not, I know enought to complete your job on time.

I don't do heat calcalations and we did at least 200k of installs last year. we had one problem thats it one. A track of homes (80) did the heat loads they are now pulling all the units out as there not correct for our area. Don't judge a contractor that knows your area by one thing. Heat loads are a tool but don't judge you bids just on that.

[docholiday]

RON!!!
Maybe its one mistake, help me out here, but 80 units is an awful lot considering Track homes and probably 4 or 5 load calculations would have prevented that.

At $2000 a peice times 80 thats $160,000...Or 80% of your work.

Did I misunderstand? Were you sugesting that 20% of your business was a good enough target?

Maybe its early and I missed something.

As for bidding jobs, its part of the game. I would suggest bidding on the job with the same size equipment as the others with a clear understanting that if you get the job a proper load calculation will be performed and if the equipment needs to be adjusted so will the price up or down. Maybe even prepare quotes for alternate sizes and use the one that fits. Explain to the customer that you cannot determine which one until a load calculation is performed and that you are not interested in guessing on a 15 year investment in their comfort. Explain that it must be done and you also want to protect yourself from providing such reports to your competitor. To me that's honest and shows integrity and qulaity. Prepare quotes with Good, Better, Best set-ups so they can see some justification for various pricees. Share photo's and testimonials and have alist of references along. Offer fiancing options. Odds are you will be at a large advantage. And if you get the job... Do it right and you will get calls from his/her friends and family, rest assured.

[Edited by docholiday on 02-14-2005 at 08:35 AM]

[johnsp]

I would think quality of work is #1. This can only be verified by references and word of mouth. Of course thanks to the internet, we also now can find HVAC pro's that have an interest in peoples problems. I find the ones that come on sites like this and bad mouth others for taking part in discussions are probably not that knowledgable and fear customers knowing or understanding anything about the trade. A true pro doesn't fear a DIY'er, but should know his years of experience and knowledge will impress a customer by explaining his design implementation which justifies his costs.

[kampeh]

I'm waiting for an in home estimate today.
I got one from Home Depot and I need to compare.
I need some assurance that I can make this decision well.

The cost is 8,500 for Forced Air Furnace and Trane 12 SEER 3.5 ton. 10 year complete Warrenty. I guess I could find cheaper, but I think I trust these guys.

[kampeh]

If you can point me to relevant posts, please do.

I need to replace my residential HVAC Magic Chef Furnace w/PVC pipe and Lennox AC Unit. I'm told the system I have is very rare and out dated, but was good in it's day.

[Roncool]

Docholliday I think you have made some very helfull tips. I do most of what you have stated just not all the time and I know I should prepare better. I just work in a area that is real compeditive. I guess I am a bit senative because I lost a job last week to a guy I saw loading up in his trunk of his car. and no I don't do tracks the contractor came to me asking if I would buy the stuff they are pulling I am not sure it was all 80 homes I know I bought 35 2 ton condensers (Goodman 12 seer).All these house had heat loads done. I don't want to take away from 9mmnow thred I am interested in what people are looking for.My experence with home owners is not the same as what I read from them on threds I think it is because if a hom owner takes the time to ask questions on the internet they are smart shoppers, and like to compare before buying. Thats not what I see on a daily bases. I am little hard headed sometimes I will start doing them, maybe Don will send me one for free. The troble is it will make me want a lap top

[kampeh]

It's not a comfortable position to be in to choose a new HVAC System. Price is certainly important, but you want to know that the contractor is efficient with your money.
I'm prepared to spend $4,000 on a Trane 3.5 ton tomorrow w/10 yr wrnty but now my husband called and says he is getting feedback from friends at work that this is way to high and they say a unit like this should be about $2,000. And our old unit still works, but I believe it will be best to replace it with the furnace anyway, although I'm not sure. I like the offer from Home Depot because I am comfortable that the quality and service and installation will be good, but it seems the price is high.

[Jax]

Is there a failure to communicate?
Contractors wants home owners to write a blank check, sit back, remain silent and stay out of the way. Home owner want contractor to be able to answer reasonable questions, do good work, and be competitive in price. Humm

The truth is, a home owner shopping for a new system wants the same thing we all do when we look to purchase a car, home or a new piece of equipment for our service truck. They want the contractor to be able to answer their questions intelligently and guide them through the maze of choices while letting them remain in charge of decisions.
But in this process they also will make a determination about trust, and from whom they will get the most for their hard-earned money.
And yes Price does matter in their decision.


In the business we see all levels of quality of workmanship from contractor and we see home owners trying to make a decision with conflicting information from bidders. For instance if you had Doc and Ron
both bidding, who are you to believe. Yet I would bet you would get a quality system install from both.
We are often judged by mis-information, or differing views.
And we are often judged by things that have nothing to do with Heat and air.


Jax

[ps]

You will not get my job without a copy of your heat load calculation - no matter how experienced you may be. I will compare to my own calculation - to see how much attention is paid to understanding my application and subtle details. To me, attention to detail reflects experience and integrity (honesty & trust). I want my installer to provide annual servicing also - so I look for traits that will benefit me in that area as well. Home owners are not just investing in an expensive system that will heat/cool their home - they are investing in you to provide a system that works for the home and its occupants, whether they realize it or not. In fact, the HO who does NOT realize this will be the first one to callback or complain. The educated HO (by you or self-learned) is your best customer and will recommend you to others. My 2 cents.

[kampeh]

I know zilch about heat load calculation.
I assume that the new system is comparable to my old system. I don't like to be treated like I don't know what you are talking about...but I don't know what you are talking about. I agree that an educated homeowner is a better customer. But how much is a homeowner going to know about all this? Not much. So I think it comes to price, competition, and trust.

[ps]

Kampeh - my reply was more for 9mmnow, sorry.

I am currently looking to replace my heating system (HW boiler - not HVAC), but the question for HOs applies to my situation, too.

While I am an educated HO (engineer) - I would bet that time spent with the less-informed HO explaining the proposed system, its specific application to the HOs needs, how you will take care of the HO (service, etc) - will go a long way in winning the bid. Informing up front about how much the system costs over its lifetime (what an eye opener!) and the importance of initial equipment and installation practices influence this will show the HO that you are treating their system as if it were your own, and are not looking to just plug it in and run with the $. This helps develop trust and decreases their concerns with possible higher initial costs. I'll bet that a little hand holding will result in more sales and happier customers - and happy customers will be your greatest sales tool.

[kampeh]

PS, no apology needed, I was not directing my comment so specifically to yours. I agree with your comment about what (I) want in the contractor, and actually, I was impressed with the guy who came two days ago...he provided all that. But I think I need to compare anyway, it seems foolish to put out that much money without comparing 3 estimates, so I have two others coming today. But I feel bad making them go through this "free" high pressure estimate thing.
I respect contractors and think they should be able to have integrity and make decent money.
Good luck on your WH, those are not so expensive, right?

[ps]

You should absolutely get 3 or more estimates - and that is where the more info the HO has the better. You wouldn't buy a car without shopping around, and I am sure you use any info you can to negotiate the best deal.

I haven't put my job out to bid, but I estimate my job will be $6000 - $9000, depending on what type of boiler. So much for not so expensive - although a quality boiler will probably outlive me!

[kampeh]

In response to the thread about about to find....My husband went through the yellow pages when the Furnace quit Friday night with freezing temperatures outside. He found one guy who came out, but left lots of messages with other places. The guy who came could not fix it...we were not impressed. We paid him $xxx for an hour to change our thermostat (and then put our better one better one back again) and diagnose that the fan in the heater was bad and th wires were old/bad. He barely spoke any English.
I am a Home Depot fan and I was there getting Space heaters when the guy was messing up my thermostat for nothing. Home Depot was great about sending a guy for an estimate Sat morning. Then we had all the call backs from the messages my husband left and I agreed to an estimate this afternoon from a company I know nothing about. Then the small company that has serviced our system in the past and my husband is very happy with (couldn't reach them until today) said they would provide an estimate too and on top of that, they said they would get our system working right away so we would not be without heat in the interim.

[kampeh]

WOW!
I had no idea water boilers could cost so much. Sorry. You want to make a good decision then.
Thanks for the reassurance on the etimates.

[bentruler]

I had to think about this a bit.

Its easy to say price isn't a factor, but that would be a line of BS. Its also easy to say value and mean the intersection of enough quality and low enough price, but hard to define what that is.

So what I'd look for:
1) Correct installation.
2) Value.

Does that mean I want the lowest price? No. It means I want the lowest price that gets the work done right. I think every person here would want that if they were honest about it.

It seems to me that the lions share of cost comes from taking the time to put the large number of finishing touches on the work that seperates the quality jobs from the rest. I'd spell out those touches in the contract and explain why they are important. Picture differences for cosmetic things (concentric vent caps) would help.

Some ideas of things I've seen that show what I mean:
Spray paint inside of large return grills.
Hard pipe trunks and supply runs
Insulate boots.
Mastic everything.

You get the idea.

When it comes to service, this seems simple, but show the customer any parts you had to replace. If you can offer it to them. I'm always worried in the back of my mind "Did they even replace anything?" (Not just HVAC...)

Be willing to answer questions. Don't try to answer those you can't. Take it as a action item and get back to the customer if you don't know. At least shows you aren't out to BS them.

Don't as me for my name and address while sitting in my dining room.

Don't call my kid "the seed corn." Creepy.

Do correct bad information, but don't do it in a way that attacks another contractor.

Oh yeah, if you have sepeate sales and install crews, make sure the sales guy calls to check during and after the job. He's the guy (gal) that the customer has the trust bond with and is more likely to get told about something the customer doesn't like than the crew is.

[kampeh]

I just got a 2nd estimate that is $5,400 (10 SEER, Carrier)vs the first that was $8,600 (12 SEER, Trane).

The first was trying to compete on service and reputation. The second was trying more on Cost.

I'm not sure which one I should take, I think they would both work out all right.

The price difference is not small.

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

Originally posted by kampeh
I just got a 2nd estimate that is $5,400 (10 SEER, Carrier)vs the first that was $8,600 (12 SEER, Trane).

The first was trying to compete on service and reputation. The second was trying more on Cost.

I'm not sure which one I should take, I think they would both work out all right.

The price difference is not small.

But the difference in equipment is huge!

[kampeh]

What do you mean? I think most of the difference is in service. I have learned that TRANE is a leader. But is it "huge" differnece.
I confess, a very important factor to me is exterior size and and appearance, because I just put in nice patio in the back yard. I want an unobtrusive good looking unit, and I don't have information yet to make judgement on that.

[fixit50]

So what I am seeing so far is, workmanship,quality,and mostly price. I am getting the impression that the homeowners are not really aware of the benifits of 10 seer to 16 seer, the advantages of a 90%compared to an 80%. I see this all the time in our field,the homeowner is not aware of the differant and complexicity of the systems they can get into, humidification,air quality,zoning. etc etc. That is the reason I asked the question as i posted it. They know the differance between a Ford and a Chevy then the Cadilac. but not up to par on the brands and the products out there to benifit them in the long haul; We all see the brands listed here and problems with everyone of them, Even new auto's have problems. Lets phrase this a new way A scenario here.. Ring ring ,,hello mr 9mmnow i am looking for a new furnace can you come and take a look and give me an estimate. Have you looked at brands and know what your looking for mr customer. No I dont. This is where it gets to be good, How is a cutomer to know the better of the brands offered ????/ Trane,Lennox,Bryant, Carrier,York,Goodman,Amana,whirlpool,you see the problems so far? single stage 2 stage, Help us guys out homeowners... We are here to learn by you the homeowners also.

[kampeh]

I saw an add about designer colour and good looking AC Units, I love it! But none of the three estimates I got could include that. I'm bummed the units look so ugly outside. SEER? What the heck is that??? Seems like gobbledigook to confuse me and force me to make financial decisions.

[jnj]

Some of these homeowner replies mirror my own experiences.

I go out on one estimate and meet a very informed, HVAC savy homeowner that asks all the right questions and is up on many of today's advanced products. The next estimate, I get a homeowner who'll barly give me 10 minutes of their time and is only interested in "the lowest price you can do it for." Very frustrating for me but, I'd much perfer the 1st homeowner to the 2nd any day. The problem is, it's not always possible to get a good read on your prospective customer from just a phone call. I'll usually try to explain the advantages of the different features and efficiency ratings but, many times get nothing but a blank stare in return.

What I struggle with constantly is to try to generate some excitment about my products. Not possible with most people at least in my neck of the woods. I see people willing to drop $7500+ on a new plasma tv, but balk at spending more than a minimum for a home system designed to bring them comfort for many years. My feeling is that the majority of homeowners approach buying an a/c system no differently than a car, a tv or anything else. To the price shoppers, they're only buying a box and it makes no difference (in their mind) who they buy it from.

I guess in a perfect world all my customers would be educated on all things HVAC before even calling me. Then they would already know what they're most interested in and I could save us both a lot of time.

[dhvac]

Seer in a/c is comparable to miles per gallon in your car
The higher the number the more efficient as for annual saving it will vary with location ask, your contractor he should be able to spread some light on the situation.

[kampeh]

I actually do understand that much aout SEER (and a little more). But it's still hard to feel intelligent about making choices. One of the three bidders told me I would be fine with 10 SEER, other two said that was a very bad choice, not only for efficiency reasons but for noise level, quality, etc.

[madmike]

You seem to answer what it is your looking for....
unobtrusive.... if you want to enjoy your patio PLEASE do yourself a favor and spend the money on a high efficient r410a system that is very quiet compared to others. Some a/c units you have to yell to hear each other then some units you can easily hear each other talk normally right next to the unit.

[fat eddy]

Why is it when you ask a homeowner about getting there furnace replaced most never ask about a load calc. but the think they know it all, I did my homework,look at me I'm an educated buyer, you can't fool me by taking shortcuts how dare you choose my furnace without doing a load calc types, are the ones that continually get ripped off and never complain about it because they are sure they made the right the decision !!!! I mean sure !!!.

My mind is made up if a customer asks for a load calculation they just told me that they will beleive anything and at that very moment I wish I was a used car salesman so I could give them the equivalent document in a car buying process which would be the 200 point check list that was just completed before the car went on the lot.

I have done many load calcs and found out that I am pretty good at choosing the right equipment without them, which is the same thing anyone with a half a brain in this field has found out.

[coldbud]

Interesting point fat eddy and I will tell you why. I got an estimate from a contractor who did the load calc and came up with a 3 ton ac and a 115 BTU input high efficiency gas furnace 80% AFUE. OK mister contractor I take your word for it because this is your business and I guess you know what you are doing. Then I get a second estimate and this person comes up with the same thing 3 ton ac and a 88,000 BTU gas furnace 80% AFUE. So I ask how did you come up with that recommendation? He say's years of experience. I know his company has the experience because they came highly recommended. So my question is now how do I decide based on what you said about being able to figure it out based on your abilities. I'm not trying to start a fight, but I'm trying to figure it out. I like both companies and they have good refs, whats a mother to do?

[fat eddy]

Go with the guy that didn't do a load calc. he sounds more experienced and honest.

[davidr]

Originally posted by fat eddy
Go with the guy that didn't do a load calc. he sounds more experienced and honest.

That has got to be one of the most irresponsible post made on this site.
How can you make this type of a suggestion based on what little bit of information that has been provided?

[fat eddy]

I read a lot into the speed at which she typed her post at, she sped up when she talked about the first company showing an uneasiness about this contractor, then she slowed down while she talked about the second one signalling to me that she had a higher comfort level with him and that she trusted him more with her gut feelings which are usually pretty accurate.

[coldbud]

9mmnow,
i just read your post from eariler today and you make very good points. Let me try and explain the HO position in some cases. Yes we may now something about cars because we touch them everyday. We know when its not running right on a day to day basis. But our HVAC systems, that's a different story. We don't know how they are working until they stop. And because it was working fine all of last year it is out of sight and out of mind. Then it stops and we panic because its cool outside or its hot outside and we don't want to be uncomfortable in either situtation. So we call you guys. Some of us actually have budgets to work with and some don't. I'm sure you can tell the difference from the moment you walk in who we are and if we have a budget to work with. So you say my system is gone, and I need a new one. But I have not replaced the system in this house for 15 years or maybe even never. I don't have a clue about what is available nowadays. 80%, 90% AFUE and 12 SEER or 16 SEER, what the hell are you talking about? LOL $5,500.00 to $10,000.00 for a new system. I don't want to drive it I just want it to keep me comforable and I don't have that kind of money at the drop of a hat. But if I have to spend that type of money then I guess I will. And then I realize, being comforable is more important than I thought. Being comforable for the next ten to fifteen years is very important, so where do I start. That's where you guys come in. yes I need you to take your time and explain to me the stuff thats on the market. Where I will get the most bang for my buck and yes quality work. Why is 90% better than 80% or why my house could work with 2 stage or 2 stage variable speed and will 12, 13, 14 SEER will save me money in the long run. Why is Trane or Carrier or Lennox the better choice. You cannot expect us to always know these answers. Yeah if its not an emergency I can take the time to find the answers, and thats OK too, but if I need it tomorrow or the next day help me as much as you can. And when it all said and done and I'm a happy customer and I think you have given me a fair price and quality workmanship, guess what, you will get all of my referrals and all of their referrals and so on down the line. But if I think you took advantage of me and raked me over the coals because of my lack of knowledge, I will tell that too.

Thanks for your time.

[ct2]

Zoom38 said

Yes price is last, unless you come in with a ridiculously high estimate of 25% or more over the next guy. I will pay a little more for good quality workmanship but there is a limit.

But have you considered the fact that the guy that gave you that out of this world bid may have been offering a system that would give you trouble free service

and not some system that he could get as cheap as china sells them and charge you just under retail for.

You say that you asked your potential contractors questions that they could not answer and you probablyscared them off.
I am sure you have done your research , but the things you asked them are the fundamentals thatwe learn in school--yes school-

sometimes a little learning can be a dangerous thing. The guy that gave you that out of this world bid was probably the only one that woiuld have done an excellant job for you.

Meeting a contractor and insulting his intellegence by asking him questions that you feel he wont know would run most people off.
You can also brush up on your spanish and get a unit from your home improvment center, and se habla on the way out the door , and pick up your installation team that way.

They will even help you load your new unit into the trunk of your BMW for you si!

[zoom38]

CT2, I didn't want to put the estimates down but you leave me no choice, 2 of the contractors estimates were for two Trane 3 ton systems, 14seer. One contractor 15,000 the other 24,000 no extras. I see a big difference. The contractor with the high bid was a bit condescending and didn't seem to want to address my concerns, shame on him. The lower bid contractor did seem to want to address my concerns but was a little pushy to sign. I did not and had no intention of ambushing my prospective contractors with questions they cannot answer. As I said in my first post tell me you don't know the answer, I'll respect you more for that. Communication, communication, communication. It doesn't say much for your industry if one contractor comes in 9,000 over the next.

[pstu]

>> have you considered the fact that the guy that gave you that out of this world bid may have been offering a system that would give you trouble free service

You would be doing every homeowner a huge service if you could describe how we would know that.

Here's my opinion and you will not like it: If this industry were not pervaded by hacks, the pros would be able to form a simple concensus as to how to choose a decent HVAC pro. We are not seeing much concensus here and I wish we were.

In my experience the highest bid I ever heard was from a guy who wanted to replace every component, said my 7 tons AC was "undersized", he wanted to install 9 tons. My Manual J calc says 5 tons or smaller. I am frustrated there.

I've seen all too many businesses who wait for the check to clear and then become deaf to problems. I suggest that's what all we homeowners are afraid of. We never know what we are going to get, until then the only sure thing is a cheap price (which I do *not* advocate, by the way!).

Regards -- P.Student

P.S. I do think 6 bids is kinda high, it sure makes it look like trying to start a price war. Perhaps the homeowner can make it more plainly clear that they want quality and value, not cheap price. But if you cannot get a bead on quality and value, what is left to do?

[Edited by perpetual_student on 02-15-2005 at 10:47 AM]

[Roncool]

Thank you Fat Eddie, (How do you tell speed?)Look It's like I said heat load calcs are a tool thats it. It's not the reason to chouse a contractor. This is my
call on the customer, lets say they are replacing there furnace only. I look at the old furnace get the BTU rating Lets say 100K understanding it's only 50% efficent.I will assume they are not getting much more then 50K of real heat in the home. not I have established that. At this point I get to know my customer in general convesation this way I get a feel of what there dept of undestanding is of our business. I will ask questions like did you do any add ons since the furnace was put in. I will inspect the insulation attic and inspect the present duct system I will inspect the electral(proper grounding).I will ask the customer a important question . were you happy with the heating when the unit was working. Lets assume all is well. no add on's insalation good ducts good. they were happy with the old heat I will be putting in a 80% 75k or 80k BTU Furnace.This will give them close to 20% reduction of their gas bill with the same amount of heat.I will put that up against any heat load, and knowing the area you work in is the bigest tool you can have

[kampeh]

That's in line with my position as a HO. I am now glad about the three estimates I got. I felt crummy about talking to the first "high" bidder this morning to cancel everything. I regret he "wasted" his time. I also think he rushed (because I have no heat and it's cold outside) and he did not treat me like I had a lot of intelligence but that I did have a lot of money (communication). He did not understand my current HVAC that well. He did not present me with with very many options or decisions to make.
The second estimate was $5,400 vs his of $8,600. If I had only had those two choices, I would have gone with $8,600.
But the third estimate was superior to me. The technician was extremely knowledgeable, especially about my system, patient, and respectful. He knew from his service records more about my system than the others could figure out because the labels have worn off. He said my AC unit is a 3 ton, so it makes sense to replace it with a 3 ton, Vs a 3.5 ton that was guessed (?) by others. Oddly, my blower is a 5 ton.

[kampeh]

One other response to this thread is shoes. My carpets are clean and my family does not walk on them with shoes on. The first estimator (the "high" one who promised superior service) did not offer to remove his shoes and walked all over my carpets with dirty boots. This did not leave a comfortable impression with me. The other two estimators removed their shoes. I'm sure all your customers are different, but this is my perspective.

[pstu]

>>He said my AC unit is a 3 ton, so it makes sense to replace it with a 3 ton, Vs a 3.5 ton that was guessed (?) by others.

Upsizing without thinking through the consequences is a really bad idea. It could cause your duct system to become inadequate when it was Ok before. I experienced that with a furnace replacement, the HVAC guy wanted to put in "5 ton" air handler with 80K BTUH heat output (AC is 3.5 ton). Since my Manual J told me the whole house needed 85K heating load on two furnaces, I pushed him toward a "4 ton" air handler with 64K heat. Even that smaller unit on default settings made ducts noisy when they weren't before. I didn't see that coming, he didn't see that coming, but which one of us is supposed to have expertise here?

I believe the guy never gave a moment's thought to the duct system, evidently he was going by seat of the pants on the air handler sizing. Tell me again how Manual J and Manual D are "worthless". Yeah right.

Regards -- P.Student

[Edited by perpetual_student on 02-15-2005 at 11:57 AM]

[kampeh]

My home was built all electric in 1974 w/Lennox HVAC, 3 ton AC. In 1988 the owner must have been unhappy with the "small" heater so they converted to gas and put in a high efficiency one pipe Magic Chef furnace that apparently is good to heat a house twice the size of mine with a 5 ton blower. We are planning to get an all-new Carrier variable speed, 3 ton 12 SEER, (up to 96% AFUE) two pipe system with humidity controller put in Friday. I think we will be happy with it.

[coldbud]

kampeh

that's good to hear. the important thing is, now you are somewhat informed about your choice in the product and the contractor. I think this is a good site for helpful information, especially when the contractors realize no one is trying to take advantage of them and vice versa. I think we all understand everybody has to make a living. communication, communication is one of the keys to everybody being happy. If not happy at least comfortable with the outcome. kampeh I'm not a salesman but I have done some reading and you might want to consider a 13 or 14 SEER in the long run. I realize it will cost a little more upfront, but the government is going to a 13 standard early next year and the higher SEER will save you a little more money and give a little more comfort in the long run, I think. Check out this web page, http://www.dulley.com I hope I can give out a web page on here with offending anyone.
good luck

[kampeh]

I'm going to ask my contractor about some higher SEER. I don't mind some more money if I know it's something better. I'm pretty sure my contractor wouldn't mind some changes at this point assuming they can handle it allright and I pay the difference of course.

[dallasbill]

Hmmmm... An HO trying to understand how to close a deal for new HVAC smack dab in the middle of a discussion on how could professionals benefit from HO feedback to better their business opportunities. I think the HO needs their own thread, and since it involves pricing, does it even belong here?? ;-)

My feedback to professionals echos a lot of what has been said here. Let me take if further because being an Internet knowledge junkie I have learned a lot of what to ask and what not to expect when trying to complete the HVAC for our new home.

It goes to what you say to your local customers, and it goes to what you say here. Why both places? Because I would venture that what you say when giving advice here is exactly the way you give advice to customers!

1) Ask me questions about why I am doing something and answer "you don't know" if I ask something you don't. Tell me you'll get me an answer or tell me where to look. Example, don't just say flex duct is lousy when it can be perfectly acceptable if installed using A, B and C. Tell me A, B & C.

2) Understand the practical eveyday living differences of 80% and 90+% efficiency units in zones where cooling is the biggy and not heating. Or vice versa w/ SEER and A/C if heating is the biggy and not cooling.

3) Treat my home with respect. If I see that you are not careful walking around it, you won't get the job.

4) Give me the calcs and explain them. Ask if I understand. Let me learn.

5) Price it fairly and explain why it's priced this way. Have a list of references ready to give me with your quote. Don't make me ask. I told the guy doing our new home that I wanted to be a poster child for his work -- it's his first ICF home. Guess what -- he's ecstatic! He's fixing errors done by the "grunt duct workers" and he's telling me everything along the way. He wants to do just as good a job as I need and he understands what I need. Because we talk.

6) Tell why a variable speed blower is better than a multi-fixed speed blower because of a, b, and c. Relate it to my comfort, my bills and what I gain by it when it's only 78F outside but 98% humidity because of fog/rain for 4 days straight. I can really appreciate it that way!

7) Don't price a Goodman for a $400,000 house, or for a house in a neighborhood where the house start at 300,000 without explaining why. Tell them Goodman was just sold 2 months ago to a financial firm w/ no HVAC history. Let the HO decide if they want into that -- I don't! If they ask about Carrier, but still want to save money, tell them about Bryant.

8) Read and research, because there are more of us like me out there every month. Tell the HO about this site so they can get feedback on your recommendations. If you feel good enough to advise others here, then you should back up your quotes by sending them here too!

9) Listen to what we say and politely explain why your experience may negate what we want.

10) Finally, don't ever say "that's just how it's done" and expect to hang around for another chance.

I've learned a lot here, so hope that helps you pros too.

Cheers!

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

Originally posted by dallasbill

4) Give me the calcs and explain them. Ask if I understand. Let me learn.



I will show them to you, but if you want them before accepting my proposal, you will have to buy them from me.
My load calcs are very detailed including drawings.
I have been burnt too many times to lose the job and find some hack in the supply house holding MY drawings.
The software is expensive and I take alot of time designing your system.
I actually had some hack call me a couple of months ago on my cell # that a homeowner i bid on gave him.
He said the homeowner hired him through a "friend" and he needed to know what size equipment I came up with for his house!

[coldbud]

dallasbill,

WOW.... Good Stuff... I'm with ya all the way. Maybe we do need our own thread. Can you imagine how the two can work together and not against each other. Good Stuff

Bolton,

Don't give up your load calcs without getting the job. Just explain its one of your tools you use to help YOUR customer select you for the job because you are a professional, not a rip off artist. I bet you like to know what your money is buying when you spend, so do the consumers. We are all consumers at some point in life.

[dallasbill]

BoltonNC... did I say anywhere I wanted printed, hard-copy calcs for free? No.
So, don't assume like that -- it looks bad to me as a consumer who you are trying to acquire as a customer.

Did I say that I want to see what you, as a pro, are going to do for my money before I contract you? Yes!
So, showing -- not giving -- them to me so I can learn why you are the one I should hire is the only way you are going to get my business. I am sorry that you were burned, but leave that out of your future dealings with future customers, or I/they will sense that mistrust a 1000 miles a-coming.

I thought the purpose of this thread was to provide HO feedback on how you pro's can win better business?! I would suggest that jumping up and down with a post about hacks stealing your work and how I ain't going to see anything unless I pay is not the tone I would want to hear.

Let me re-post this part from my OP:
It goes to what you say to your local customers, and it goes to what you say here. Why both places? Because I would venture that what you say when giving advice here is exactly the way you give advice to customers!

Please consider the above the next time you want to build your business.

And, consider putting "This work is fully owned by XXX and shall not be shared, in whole or in part, but any means whatsoever, without explicit wrriten permission of XXX" on all your work. Then, you have some recourse.

[kampeh]

Anybody can start a new thread, but I thought this one was good and helpful. I admit I didn't read all the site rules and ethics stuff, but I think real cases and facts are relevant to the topic, including prices. What you see in this thread is real-world. Contractors sometimes get burned and sometimes take it out on the next customer. Different HOs are different and so are different contractors. I appreciate contractors who want to try to understand customers better so they can improve their business, that's why I like this thread. Contractors should not make assumptions that all HOs are alike. I know HO friends and neighbors who have completely different attitudes about contractors than I do, and I think they must be very unpleasant to work for, but I'm not like that and I don't like you to come to my home and assume I am. I can't "negotiate" with a contractor because I want to assume they have provided an offer with integrity, so if I ask them to lower the price, they have to lower the service, and I don't want less service.

[dallasbill]

Kampeh... I made a comment. I am not a moderator.

However -- and everyone forgive my going OT here -- here are some Internet forum tips for you since you appear to be new at this.
It will help you in future for all forums of any topic where you seek help.

1) Changing topics in existing threads is commonly called "hijacking a thread." It introduces new things that have nothing to do with the OP -- original poster's -- question.
2) By doing #1, you deprive yourself of the potential of all eyes to see your topic/concern and give you the advice you seek. The only people that see your post are those that came here for another topic. You also deprive the OP and his responders of a continous thread for his topic that he started -- everyone has to jump around your questions now.
3) Other people who may have the same concern as you will never see your advice either, because of #2. Therefore, the value of education of the forum is diminished.

I am sure that you can see how that helps you, and is not meant as a criticism.

Now, to stop my own hijacking of this thread with a "Forums 101" lesson, I will turn it back to the original topic.

Cheers! ;-)

[kampeh]

Bill
If I was the moderator, I would delete your last post, as it had nothing to do with the thread and none of us who came to the thread are helped by your "101".

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

1st you said:
"Give me the calcs"
I took this as: do the calcs and give them to me...

Then you said:
did I say anywhere I wanted printed, hard-copy calcs for free? No.

Sorry if I misunderstood.
I apologise if i ofended you.

[fixit50]

Lets keep this civalized guy's... Back to the topic, yes some good points are brought up here. I decided to put it here in the residential sec instead of the gen discussion (because) more homeowners come here for their problems and not for the techs or companies problem. My point on this thread and to learn from was a homeowners point of view, what makes them interested in what brand and contractor and why? Our field and industry has fallen greatly because we as business owners and techs do not inform the homeowner of the new equipment and advantages of it, So there is no one to blame here, I as I was once a tech everytime i went into a homeowners home I showed them literature of new equipment out on the market.especially if their equipment was over 15 years old. Not to make a sale but to inform them of what is there. If a homeowner asked me for info i was more than happy to explain it,and to show them the advantages and disadvantages of the equipment. Now in our high tech world of living there are so many differant things out there. I made this thread to inform homeowners and to learn from them what they know or dont know about hvac. A furnace and air conditioner runs more than your average automobile. It lasts longer than your average automobile. We trade our vehicles in every 5 to 8 years, our heating and air systems just fade away. They average 15 to 20 years. Think about it.Lets just stay on topic here. Thanks all.

[dallasbill]

BoltonNC... no offense taken. But, you have perfectly illustrated my point about how a misunderstanding can occur with an HO. I would not want that to hurt your future biz growth so that's why I made the suggestions I did.

9mmnow... I coudn't agree more... and that's why I shared my thoughts about what I learned as an HO and from the pros here. I hope you -- and Bolton and others -- are able to take advantage of all the posts in this thread of yours to build your biz.

kampeh... thanks... but, just like me, you are not a mod. So, start your own thread.

[fixit50]

Why thank you for the hijack d-bill couldnt of done better my self

[mojo27]

I must say when I choose a Service company, I look for someone on the road in a clean company vehicle. That says a lot of a company in my eyes.

Call me dumb.

[pstu]

I have to agree with Mojo about the look of a company vehicle. One time I was thinking about getting a geothermal heat pump system and had learned of a company which was said to have expertise in that. Then I saw a really cruddy beat-up, dented small pickup carrying that company's logo. That made me far more unlikely to choose that company for any work, it suggested to me they had shallow roots and if things got at all tough for them, they would fold.

This doesn't apply to *all* contractors but it surely does for HVAC. For example I am especially inept when it comes to plumbing problems, and called a plumber thru a warranty company. They turned up in a really crummy sedan that dripped oil on my driveway -- I cared a little about the oil but if they had enough expertise to fix my problem (they did) then I was satisfied with them overall.

This illustrates how I see HVAC as a much more sophisticated operation than the slow-drain plumbing problem I had. It is a certainty that a house HVAC system will not perform well until it is matched up with a good flowing duct system, and these are always specific to the house.

Regards -- P.Student

[cem-bsee]

no one has mentioned the need for good information, not just a slick sales gimick stating that these sizes & colors are available, nothing as to preformance data, nothing as to accessories available & what each does --

are 13SEER systems really going to last 20 years?, even 15?

[fat eddy]

Do you really look at trucks and determine who you will call to service your equipment ? I find that amazing, The tradition is that the most prestigous companies out there have no lettering on their trucks and it is for a couple of very very good reasons.

[ps]

This thread demonstrates the problems that prompted 9mmnow's OP - he wanted HOs opinions so that he could better his business. HOs and contractors both have provided good suggestions, AND revealed what are some of the biggest problems for both HOs and contractors. As a HO - this is what I have learned here and I think it speaks to the OP (contractor).

HOs
1)The fear of being ripped off (actual or in their opinion) or dissatisfied with part or all of the job - hack/mismatched installations AND/OR lack of understanding by HOs are usually the cause. Solution - Not all HOs are going to self-educate so ultimately the contractor has to take the lead. This will benefit HO,contractor, and industry in general. Maintaining integrity and professionalism helps everyone (no assumptions).

Contractors
Be professional - don't assume ANYTHING. Experience is very important but EVERY house is different, treat my system as if it were your own. If you are not going to take the time to do a proper load calc, ask questions, and educate me so that I can be a better customer and make an informed decision - then don't waste your time or mine. Choose your battles - if you have a customer that is only interested in price and doesn't care to be informed, give them an honest price and walk away if they only want to low ball you. You will never change all the HOs - but if you are a quality contractor, you already know the value of an informed and happy customer - and ultimately the industry is responsible for the systems and level of satisfaction of your customers.

P.S. - Professionalism is demonstrated everywhere, including appearance of personnel, vehicles, respect for property (HO and business). Lack of it just gives HO a reason to diminish trust in you and question everything you say or do thereafter (justified or not). This hurts your business and the industry in general.

[BobM]

First thing I want to know about is competancy -- I've had extremely bad luck in that department. Maybe 1 out of 5 serviceman from 2 separate companies seemed to actually know what he REALLY was doing.
Price would be second -- it's hard to put a price on good service.
Honesty & integrity would be next ...

[pstu]

Fat Eddy said...

>>Do you really look at trucks and determine who you will call to service your equipment ? I find that amazing..

I am surprised you think it makes no difference (if indeed I am reading your meaning correctly). Someone can *lose* my consideration based on looking like they are barely scraping by, but that won't *win* my business unless it's a tie-breaker. Does a rational homeowner want to deal with someone who looks "here today, gone tomorrow"? You may have mis-read what I was trying to communicate.


>>The tradition is that the most prestigous companies out there have no lettering
>>on their trucks and it is for a couple of very very good reasons.

Here is where I am amazed. Tradition? A couple of very good reasons? Please do tell why a HVAC business would want to conceal its identity at any time.

Regards -- P.Student

[dash]

Originally posted by fat eddy
Do you really look at trucks and determine who you will call to service your equipment ? I find that amazing, The tradition is that the most prestigous companies out there have no lettering on their trucks and it is for a couple of very very good reasons.


Just the opposite in our area.Why would a contractor not want the truck to have his name on it??

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

Originally posted by fat eddy
Do you really look at trucks and determine who you will call to service your equipment ? I find that amazing, The tradition is that the most prestigous companies out there have no lettering on their trucks and it is for a couple of very very good reasons.

This makes no sense unless you don't want free advertising everywhere you drive.

[dash]

Just wanted to say,I think the idea of this thread,as I see it,for the Pros to learn what customers really want is teriffic!!

Need a few more homeowners to join in!

[dallasbill]

Originally posted by fat eddy
Do you really look at trucks and determine who you will call to service your equipment ? I find that amazing, The tradition is that the most prestigous companies out there have no lettering on their trucks and it is for a couple of very very good reasons.
Hey... seriously now... you're in Dallas, right? Didn't I buy a Nutty Buddy and a Fudgsicle from you last Sunday afternoon? ;)

In Dallas, reputable HVAC companies always have company-labeled vehicles.

[fat eddy]

I was in Dallas but it was not last Sunday, Why would you need lettering on your truck. Most communities around here ban lettered trucks in drives,garages, street parked. If I had lettering on my truck I would have to move.

[dallasbill]

That's why I, as a homeowner, would never hire such an HVAC company.

- I don't know where your office is.
- I wonder why your truck looks like any other van on the road.
- When you tell me why you do this, I now understand where your office is.
- I extrapolate from that you are probably solo, or only work w/ 1099 subs.
- You can disappear.

In keeping w/ the questions asked by the OP:
no amount of your convincing how good you are would make me hire you. If you are that good, you label your truck, park it elsewhere, and have a car in your driveway.

Sorry to say it that way, but I am the customer.

[fat eddy]

I didn't mean I work out of my home I work for a vary large contractor, I 'm saying that the town I live in has ordinances about the residents having commercial vehicles in their yards, street,and garages. They are more willing to look the other way if there is no lettering or ladder racks on them.

[duct dr]

Hey eddy, are'nt you glad you don't live in TX ?

[fat eddy]

Are they all that tough there ?

[pstu]

Fat Eddy, OK you have described some decent reasons why you have a conflict with parking trucks with lettering in your neighborhood. I sympathize with your situation. However the fact remains that many homeowners see an unmarked truck as a telltale that the HVAC guy is not too solidly in the business. Maybe it *is* a Texas type of thing, we have more than enough hacks out here and we might see a crummy truck as evidence of a hack at work.

I think one thing a whole lotta HO's want deep down in their hearts is -- "HACK REPELLENT". If we could be sure of not getting a hack, many more of us would be open to paying the price of a good job. Some of us would consider our job half done if only we could find a sure way to avoid the bottom third of the industry. We are sick of paying for work and not getting it done, having mud tracked onto our carpets, having items stolen from within our houses when we turn our backs... all of these things have been in my experience.

You always have my sympathies too because you have a difficult job under uncomfortable working conditions, and IMO not enough HO's are willing to pay you what a good HVAC tech is worth.

Best wishes -- P.Student

[Edited by perpetual_student on 02-18-2005 at 09:26 AM]

[dash]

Originally posted by fat eddy
Do you really look at trucks and determine who you will call to service your equipment ? I find that amazing, The tradition is that the most prestigous companies out there have no lettering on their trucks and it is for a couple of very very good reasons.


Please explain the "prestigous" connection to unmarked trucks.


What about magnetic signage?

Have similar problem in some areas here,but okay if parked in the garage of the tech's home,amazing they can regulate what's parked inside your garage.

[ps]

Here in MA it is local (town) government or sub-division rules that can prohibit "work trucks" from being parked overnight at residences. Can you believe some areas even prohibit a HO from leaving their garage door open! My guess is this is going on all over the country - especially in the new "McMansion" subdivisions that have 3000+ sq.ft. homes with 2 adults and 1 kid living in them. How ironic that these huge energy hogs exist but you don't allow the HVAC techs to live in them. Sorry for the hijack - but this really burns me.

So fateddy has a reason - but most HOs still like to see a nice, shiny van and neatly dressed tech when the heat is on the fritz! It does matter.

[Advanced Response]

Fat eddy,,, You stated in another thread that you don't install equipment that you sub it out.. Is this why truck are not labeled because you don't have your own installation work force???
I am having a hard time understanding what you do in hvac...
Are you a engineering company or a consulting company?
You stated that you don't personally repair equipment within the first yr under warranty,, you stated that the Manufacturer is who repairs it or is it you require your subcontractor to make repairs the first yr.. I have never heard of such a thing... I make it very clear to my prospective customer that my company will be installing and servicing their equipment and my company will stand behind its install and service.. There has been very limited need for a manufacturer rep to need to get involved..

I think most customers want to only have one company and one manufacturer that is responsible for their installation and satisfaction...

I am not trying to get into a fight with you or trying to undermine your contributions to this field but I just don't understand some of your statements.. Your way of conducting business might be very successfull for you and your customers..

Just my opinion..
J

[kampeh]

What vehicles are used and how they are painted is something I would think of as a not very important factor, and certainly not the only factor, in considering a contractor. Of all the things in this thread, I would consider that probably the least important. As long as the vehicle(s) looks capable of supporting the work and service I want professionally (as in not a rusty flatbed)it would be fine with me.

In any decison, there are going to be pros and cons that should be weighed, you are not going to find "the perfect" contractor unless maybe you spend an inordinate amout of time and go through 6 or more estimates (I DON'T reccomend it). If no truck lettering is a deal breaker for you, I'd say that's rather a shame.

[41gasman]

I can sure understand wanting
to see a clean and neat appearing
tech.And there there truck.
Perception is not everything
but it is ALOT.I have to do
battle with this every day.
When I get done with installs
I'm usually pretty darn dirty.
Gas to gas change out are not
that bad.But when your doing
a new system or fixing old
duct work in crawl spaces
a guy can get pretty filthy!
Problem is then I need to go out
to do a bid or repair,service
call or what ever.Now I carry
change of clothes,pit stick
and such.And yes I take my
shoes off.This can be a pain
in the butt though.Take them off
when you go in.Go get them when
it's out to the garage time.
Take them back off to go back
in.Back on to go to the truck.
Get ladder,tarps to keep floor
clean.Cover alls so after I
get out of crawl and or attic
because I have to get a solid
looksy at existing duct work.
I can still be clean enought
to be in the house let alone
sit down to talk about what needs
to be done.It does play into
the perception thing and it
is important.But really it
is just respect for somebody's
home.And that IS very inportant!
Dallisbill, I understand and
really appreciate your honesty
about what you look for.But
I got to say I would have not
guess that having my company
name and logo on the sides of
of my truck to say "pemanency"
or "stability"or"reliable"
to the customer in their minds
eye.The biggest reason I haven't
is the four to five grand to
have it done.Sixteen foot cube
van is a lot of suface area to
cover with a sticker or paint.
And I always thought magnetic
stickers on the doors said
"here today gone tomorrow"
Alot louder than no stickers at
all.But that is just my thinking
Not the customers.And its their's
that counts.I have always related
how I come across to customers
LIke dating.NOBODY has ever looked
across the dance floor and thought
"my what a beautiful heart" or
"what a careing person" he or
she must be.WE all thinking
about.... well you get the
picture.Its after we meat them
that we start thinking "who
are they".We all have to get pasted
that first step.

I hope we can get somemore home
owners in here.To here what they
need to feel confident in a
contractor.This can be a very
hard hurdle at times to get
over.Thanks
41Gasman

[retired btc]

Originally posted by 41gasman


I hope we can get somemore home
owners in here.To here what they
need to feel confident in a
contractor.This can be a very
hard hurdle at times to get
over.Thanks
41Gasman

Direct quote from one of the Professional Members of this Forum.

Suggestion: Learn the difference between a good contractor and a bad one. Learn enough and you'll realize how incredibly poor most of the workmanship is out there. After that you won't care one wit about the brand. Finding a good craftsman will be your top priority. But if not... you were warned.

Of course this member is not talking about anyone's workmanship that is posting on here is he ?

Anyway back to the OP topic of what home owners are looking for in an HVAC Co.

In regards to fast service, Don't promise to be right over then come 4 hrs later while things do come up don't promise what you can't deliver.

Of course we all want lower prices that is why we shop around, does lower price's mean bad workmanship or bad equipment? Not in all case's,I know of a few contracters that bid high on purpose because they were too busy and really didn't want the job, Why waste the time bidding just explain to the homeowner that current commitments have you currently occupied.Most of the professionals I deal with do the best they can and don't try and jury rig things to make them work.

In my neck of the woods you most likely don't have to have that spit and polish look but at least don't be cussing, smoking or spitting and have your fly zipped up when you arrive and most ppl will be ok with you, they understand you may have just come from the duck blind, fishhouse or deer stand.

On another note most homeowners don't want to take the time to explore the different brands or options that is why they have a HVAC contractor come in, they hear things on the T.V. or get friends and families imputs and then make the call, Like a lot of ppl mentioned on here its not the equipment in so much as the installer but they still like the name brands, grand pa had a lennox, pa had a lennox so I am getting a lennox too of course there is other brands but you get the jest of it.

Up here we read the see the ads in the papers, yellow pages and such but a lot of its word of mouth as well, if someone we know had a good install and was content with it they give references if, not pity the fool that screwed the pooch his job just got harder.

One other note if someone is gong to build a half a million dollar home do you think they care who the installer is that is why they pay the big bucks for the general contrator who has is own criteria !

But hey its just my thoughts anyway !!

[retired btc]

Just a few more Imputs

Up here keep it simple, heat load calculations and blower test don't mean diddly to the customer that is is chasing chickens and rabbits off the chair for you to sit in. nor do high end media filters and humidifiers concern them all they want is heat to keep the critters warm.

You might be able to sell the high end equipment and dazzle the Big City Dwellers with Seer ratings and efficency ratings of the different units but unless the older customer ask don't push the issue about AC, their window shaker has been working just fine for yrs.If they want it they will ask for it.

But most of All Remember the Ten Commandment's of Service and you'll do just fine !

[mam123]

In Texas all licensed air conditioning (and refrigeration) contractors are required to have their Texas air conditioning contractors license (TACL) number and company name posted on both sides of their vehicles, no less then 2 inches tall, used in their contracting business. If subcontractors are working under a licensed contractor, They must have temporary signs with contractor's name who owns the job on the sides or in the front wind shield visible, or have a sign in the yard visible from the street.
I have my truck properly lettered with my name on it, and this leads me to TRY to keep it clean and as uncluttered as possible.
At the supply houses, I sometimes feel like the only guy who spent anything at the lettering shop - I guess they are all subs getting parts for their contractor's permitted jobs, and the sign is at the work site - LOL.
I do not have a "uniform", but I do always wear button down canvass shirts or guide shirts (read - cool), carry boot covers, and hate white carpets.

[bigalf]

As for bidding jobs, its part of the game. I would suggest bidding on the job with the same size equipment as the others with a clear understanting that if you get the job a proper load calculation will be performed and if the equipment needs to be adjusted so will the price up or down. Maybe even prepare quotes for alternate sizes and use the one that fits. Explain to the customer that you cannot determine which one until a load calculation is performed and that you are not interested in guessing on a 15 year investment in their comfort. Explain that it must be done and you also want to protect yourself from providing such reports to your competitor. To me that's honest and shows integrity and qulaity. Prepare quotes with Good, Better, Best set-ups so they can see some justification for various pricees. Share photo's and testimonials and have alist of references along. Offer fiancing options. Odds are you will be at a large advantage. And if you get the job... Do it right and you will get calls from his/her friends and family, rest assured.

[Edited by docholiday on 02-14-2005 at 08:35 AM] [/B][/QUOTE]
Docholiday,
With your advice and attitude, I sure wish you were in my area as I am doing a replacement contractor search. After reading this forum for the past ten days, I have to say that 90% of the installers posting here are not people I would want within miles of my house. What lousy attitudes they have toward homeowners is embarrassing.

[wasp]

Kampeh, I am not sure so don't quote me on this but I think that Home Depot would subcontract the job out, as far as I know they do not have their own a/c people.

As a customer I would want the best of both worlds, competent service and a competitive price. But as we all know there are alot of hacks out there that do not belong in our realm who are over priced.

I have seen a $100k house with bottom of the line equipment, drain lines not trapped, rust in the secondary pan, wet rafters from poorly sealed supply plenums sweating and r/a not sealed off in attic, and the house was not even 6 months old. The house belonged to a purchasing agent of a chemical plant we had just acquired and he asked me to evaluate the install and make a hit list of problems. I did so, charged him a small fee for that, and quoted him my price to do it right. He asked me, do you want to see the other unit on the other side of the house? I said "I don't need to".

I guess my price was too high, did not get the job.

You get what you pay for!

[retired btc]

Originally posted by wasp
Kampeh, I am not sure so don't quote me on this but I think that Home Depot would subcontract the job out, as far as I know they do not have their own a/c people.



Your Correct in that Home Depot does not employ there own A/C techs, all the jobs they list for installs are done by sub contractors.At least in my area this is true, Of course they still take a beating for selling equipment to Home Owners but hey they have to make a buck too.

[kampeh]

Home Depot sent me a sub contractor very politely and very quickly, great 1-800 service. When he came, he presented a very good bid and I had no reason to doubt what he told me were his company's very high credentials. Yes, I believe Home Depot uses subs for all in-home services, I see nothing wrong with that.

[ahimonkey]

Originally posted by fixit50
Here is a question for home owners , We as business owners and techs would like to know what you look for in an hvac company, what do you expect, for instance, fast service, lower prices, clean and honest techs, name brand, When you call where do you find them? yellow pages? newspaper adds, flyers? Your input on this can help us to serve you better.
Thank you.

The short version:
If the client is an engineer or has that mentality, send one of your more experienced install techs. You'll probably get the business because everyone would rather hire someone like them. If you can't figure it out before your sales guy goes over, have the sales guy figure out if that's what the client is. If the sales guy detects an engineer, have the sales guy say "You know, I think this is over my head. Would you mind if I had our most experienced guy come over and talk to you about it?" In that case have your engineer call / stop by. Note I did not say "has a degree" or college educated. I'm talking about the mentality. Plenty of guys without degrees that have the mentality. You don't know what it is? Read Dilbert.

If the client doesn't have that mentality, then the cheapest price and smarmiest sales guy are your ticket to winning the job.


The LONG version:
Given that I read things regularly at this site, and have been doing so for over a year and a quarter, I am probably not the normal consumer. However:
Clean and honest techs would be the biggest one. If I feel a tech is lying to me, I pay them the fee to come out and tell them to leave. Too expensive to let someone dishonest work on your system whether its HVAC, auto, or plumbing.

Next biggest is knowledge. I want an engineer, not a sales guy. Yes, I do my research. I try to be informed, because the temptation to be dishonest is greater in many folks when they are dealing with someone who appears not to have a clue. I ask questions and I toss in at least one obviously wrong remark [if they miss the first one, I come in with an even worse one]. The guy I hire for the job will correct my error. An exasperated look is worth extra.

Ideally the guy I'd pick also having glowing references from people I know and trust to know that the contractor really did a great job. This isn't going to happen. Everyone who came [all referred] applied rules of thumb, measured by sight (guessed), and ignored certain realities, while overpromising their equipments' abilities. Certainly none of them counted bends, measured line length, etc. Only one really talked about the return air issue, but that's only after I mentioned it. If I had to pick someone right now, I guess he'd get the business. Thankfully, I don't. The closest proxy to what i want is to see how a user here has answered other users' queries.

Also, I'd like to know in advance who the install team is going to be and how experienced they were. I personally believe that while brand has something to do with the ultimate success/failure of a given system, the reality is that how good a job the guys who install it do determines how soon it's going to need servicing. None of the guys I talked to had much to say about their installation crews, except that they were the best. I probably should have asked best at what, but I didn't have the heart.

Price is about 10% of my consideration, but price is 50% of my wife's. We have to agree on someone, of course. So, 1/3 of the chance of success for the bid is price.

Now, you want to talk about the vast majority of your customers?

For the vast majority of folks, its safe to say that at least 50% of their decision is based on price, and I'd be leaning towards 75%. I talked to the people about the guys they referred to me and one of their first comments was invariably, "Yeah, he had the best price. But I was pleased with his service which is why I am recommending him to you." Needless to say I approached the initial round with a pessimistic heart.

The other 25% is their mood that day, how much they liked the guy who came by sell them their system and if a friend recommended the guy to them. Near as I can tell most HOs put in about an hour or two's worth of research on a $7500 investment.

Now, if I can come to a site like HVAC-talk and view answers by a potential contractor to others' questions I can get a feel for the fellow. Then, I wouldn't need to resort to the testing and running out a lot of bids. Hard to tell by talking on the phone. BTW, please put your location in your signature or credentials so it's easier for a HO like myself to track you down.

Rather aggravating to click credentials and find yet another user who hasn't put down their location and yet has consistently answered questions from people.

[andrew boyce]

Originally posted by johnsp
I would think quality of work is #1. This can only be verified by references and word of mouth. Of course thanks to the internet, we also now can find HVAC pro's that have an interest in peoples problems. I find the ones that come on sites like this and bad mouth others for taking part in discussions are probably not that knowledgable and fear customers knowing or understanding anything about the trade. A true pro doesn't fear a DIY'er, but should know his years of experience and knowledge will impress a customer by explaining his design implementation which justifies his costs.

Well said... This is exactly my take on this market. The only reason I have come to this BB is to educate myself as a DIY'er that would rather pay someone else to do the job but cannot find anyone that is capable or that I can trust. It is sad that most of the so called experts posting to this site have the same attitude as the bully tech that drives up in his truck looking to s---w me out of my check book and frankly never solves my problem.

My house was built one year ago in Georgia and the HVAC contractor installed three heat pump units. One 2 T upstairs and two 1 1/2 T units down stairs.

My problem is this: The living room kitchen upstairs are an open plan with a vaulted sealing design. The system has only one return for each unit and the return for each unit and the T-Stat for each unit is located in this open living space. Needless to say the heat from downstairs rises to the upstairs hallway and shuts off the unit up there making all the rooms up there cold. The ceiling fan in the living room helps.

I have begun looking into options such as Zoning or ductwork to transfer heat from upstairs back downstairs using some sort of duct fan solution. I am not sure yet I what I am going to do to fix this but I know this none of the HVAC experts I have spoken to have any solution for me. And they seem to have the same attitude towards customer satisfaction as some of the techs on this BB.

I find this sad as I am willing to spend the money to do fix my system but Trust is the main problem I have and it is driving me into the DIY areana.

AB

[bigalf]

Have you tried ServiceMagic.com? Contractors are screened by someone and have some info listed.

[pstu]

AB wrote:

>>I have begun looking into options such as... ductwork to transfer heat from upstairs
>>back downstairs using some sort of duct fan solution.

This is an idea which is so simple and low energy, that I had wondered why it's never talked about. Could it be because it's the antithesis of a 5-figure sale for new HVAC and ductwork? Is there really a legitimate reason why the central fan is looked upon as the only tool to do ventilation? I'm not trying to be too hard on the industry, I know not everyone is always trying to replace a whole system, I know there are ERVs and the like for ventilation. But feel the need to ask these questions to communicate an idea which has never (to my knowledge) been discussed in this HVAC forum.

>>The only reason I have come to this BB is to educate myself as a DIY'er that would
>>rather pay someone else to do the job but cannot find anyone that is capable or that I can trust.

I know exactly how you feel, AB. My own experience has been frustrating but it's very hard to find an HVAC guy who is motivated to do all the things that need doing. I suspect part of the problem is that Building Science spreads over several traditional trades, and people experienced in one trade are reluctant to try their hand at something that involves another trade. And ideally you would like to have a highly educated guy (Lstiburek?) designing things and there aren't too many like him. In the meantime one can feel pressured to be a reluctant DIY-er. In my opinion the board is poorer for not recognizing this different DIY motivation -- it's not really *trying* to pull any business away from HVAC pros, it's motivation is primarily to get a job done. A job that pros usually don't want.

Best of luck -- P.Student

[ahimonkey]

Originally posted by bigalf
Have you tried ServiceMagic.com? Contractors are screened by someone and have some info listed.

Yep, for a plumbing job. The first guy who came out told me the job required the floor to be ripped up and it would be at least $800. I could tell he was lying. Some people just can't lie convincingly. So I ushered him out. The leaky seal at the bottom (connection with the floor) was the problem. Sent some pictures and desc to a buddy of mine in New York. He laughed at diagnosis and $800. I tried servicemagic, but do you know who their number one pick was? $800 guy. Maybe the person who vets contractors in SC is better. Guys who fixed it, came up with my buddy's diagnosis and they did it for under $80. Took less than a half hour.

Haven't had a problem with the guys I'm using now, though I know the plumber by name and I make sure he's the one doing the job at my house. He's booked the next three days? No problem, I'll wait.

The only reliable way I've found to locate honest, experienced auto mechanics, plumbers, and contractors seems to be know enough to test them. Once I find one however, I'm not really interested in giving my business to anyone else.

Here in Dallas, at least, one of the biggest problems is that the guy who writes the contract often doesn't do the work- it's a crew of spanish speaking immigrants. I can't really blame contractors for using them (how are they going to compete against the ones who do- most HOs make price #1) So, you usually have to watch them do the job, because otherwise they cut corners (can't say I blame them for it) and do a slipshod job. (Like using 2 inch nails to hold down shingles on a roof- that's what I got for not watching them after the first hour of nailing (when they were using the right length nails)). Ran out of nails in the first bucket, no problem we'll just use these other ones. Had a business meeting I couldn't miss. They also cut the ridge vent then- wide variations in width of gap (1-3inches) These guys were working for a company with one of the best reputations- and they weren't the cheapest bid. They weren't even within 25% of that.

That's why I asked for recommendations on installers here in Dallas on my other thread. Knowing the name of a good installer and ensuring that he (she?) is on the crew that installs it will go the longest way to giving me confidence that the install will be done properly the first time.

[contactor]

you answered all your questions fixit50 in your original poot. we/ they want all the first stuff. Advertizing in the MAIN yellow pages gets you there first. The rest is how you present it. Good Luck...

[Irishmist]

Ron Cool, shame on YOU for not performing load calcs.

[streetstockracer]

i am a H/O who just made a purchase on furance and air. price was not high on our list. i looked for a company that had been around for a while, i looked for the brands i wanted, i wanted a good long warrsnty, i asked lots of questions and listened to his answers, i wanted pictures of work they had preformed. with that said i'm glad to say i made the right choice. now my wife on the other picked the same company because of a different reason. he played with held, threw the ball and pet our bassett hound lol thats one nobody has mentioned. if you came in our house sat down and started yelling at my dog "leave me alone" i would show you the door. we have a very loving bassett hound she wont jump on you she just wants attention. theres my 2 cents.

[zzyzzx]

In so far as HVAC, I would only go to the Retired HVAC tech who lives behind me or the currently working one a few houses down. Their houses are exactly the same as mine and I trust them to not rip me off or do a hack job. If I had to go elsewhere I'd get lots of contractors to stop by and rate them on things like what brand they carried, how well they returned phone calls, how professional they seemed, how well they answered my detailed questions, and I'd seriously consider quickly showing the door anyone who tried a hard sell on things I don't need like super efficient stuff that I'll never get payback on or extended warranties. Price would be a consideration, but I'd grade it exactly against what I was getting for it since no two contractors would do it exactly the same, etc. Also, if I think they they are going to send Mexicans to do the work I won't hire them.

[Edited by zzyzzx on 03-10-2005 at 01:38 PM]

[41gasman]

zzyzzx.
So just what would be wrong with a "MEXICAN" installer? Are you trying to inply that one of "those" guys would not or could not do the installation justice? Not trying to point fingers here.Just pointing out that sometimes slang can be pretty darn mean to people when were not even trying to be.

[zzyzzx]

I figure that if I'm paying $100/hr for labor that they should be at least able to speak English.

[soundman202]

From a HO's perspective, I've learned what I don't like and what I like over the years. The thing I feel most importatnt of all is to have the HVAC pro please listen to the client as to what their concerns are, and- pay attention to the concept as to what the informed customer may be requesting.

In doing so, try to be aware of basic things that maybe are taken for granted by a pro, but are probably not thought about by the HO. Example, the fan switch being forever left on auto, or maybe there is a cold air return vent over the return plenum that the builder's contractor put in to save money and increase airflow. Maybe the HO is interested in a heat pump, but lives in a Northern climate. Don't dismiss the idea right off the get-go, perhaps it could be a cost savings, or it simply may not be the case. Perhaps the homeowner may not care too much about the costs, but might rather see the satisfaction of a lowered gas bill during milder months.

Honest assessment of the current situation and to what could be the situation may present you with great opportunities to help someone out. Please Pay attention to the total package. Things like third party products, other enhancement equipment that complete the total integration may be more appropriate than the dynamic duo of ulta efficient units. Only when justification value exceeds expenditure is where a sale will be made.

It's not un-common (from what I have seen) to find a HVAC pro to be so passionate about thier business and product lines that ideas as to what the HO is looking for gets either dismissed or diluted. The over-zealous pro will only frustrate the buyer and inevitably will result the HO asking more competition into the potential sale. It seems as though (apparently even in HVAC worlds) no one wants to spend significant money on equipment that should be out of mind day-by-day, unless it caters to someones' concepts or has other intrinsic value (such as comfort, cost-effective energy usage). The right fit is there, but this has to be discovered.

Granted, not every HO will have solidly formulated ideas as to what they want except for maybe the absolute lowest possible price. Likewise, it's probably not appropriate to install a low end unit on a .5M house and certaintly the HO will not be happy in short order. If your not sure about who you're dealing with, it may be helpful to profile them with items such as Energy conservation, comfort, and scale / scope of the residential application as appropriate.

You can ask the HO:

-Do you run your fan constantly? Have you ever tried this? Try it for a week and let me know what you think?

-Would you use the A/C less if your humidity level was more inline?

-In the winter, would you like to turn up your thermostat higher, but do not because of the fear of the gas bill?

-If you cannot afford all new equipment now, would it be better to draft a phase-in schedule over the course of time?

It's basic stuff, I agree, but often times the most simplest things will expose the bigger picture and lead to what is really needed. The bad ones will always deviate from this focus which is what I look for everytime. It's your job as a HVAC pro to interpet the customer's ideas into competent realities that fulfill or surpass the requirements/ideas of the client. If you follow through on this and install with a high degree of qualiity, competence and completness, they'll be the happiest customers you'll ever have.

[dallasbill]

Originally posted by zzyzzx
I figure that if I'm paying $100/hr for labor that they should be at least able to speak English.
It's a good thing you didn't call them on proper grammer!

[paul42]

One of the biggest problems I have seen in the Texas areas is the lack of communication between the guy selling the job and the people actually doing it.

A few years ago, I had my roof replaced. There were a small group of Mexicans doing the work. Their boss was out at my place several times to check on their work. They worked very hard and did a great job. I recommend that company to anybody that asks.

About two years ago, I had some duct work done under my house. The salesman was knowledgable and I think trustworthy. A couple of Mexicans again were doing the work. I don't think their boss talked to them after they started. I was suspicious and made two trips under the house finding major problems both times. It still isn't right. I'm never going to call that company again, and anybody that asks gets my opinion on them.

I start out looking for HVAC people at the home shows and look for somebody knowledgeable that is willing to answer my questions and not blow me off just because he doesn't agree with something I say. I'm still trying to figure out how to find somebody that is both knowledgable and has the right people skills to get the job done right.

[ps]

Excellent point! Ask the salesman how long he has worked for the company, how does he get paid, what arrangements or relationships do they have with equipment distributors/manufacturers? Then check the answers out. I personally prefer dealing with someone who has a financial stake in the company's reputation and long-term viability (like an owner)! This is not always possible - but preferrable.

[bornriding]

As a contractor, I look at every home like it was my own
( probably would be better to look at it like it was my mothers home ). I give recommendations based on what I would do if I were them. The recommendations are based on what the HO wants. And even if I disagree with what they want, I will give it to them.
But mainly, I will do the installation myself. I won't send a pair ( or group ) of men ( here, usually very young men )to do the job. By the way - installers are the lowest pay scale, so installers are usually untrained beginners.At least in this area they are.
Lost a job to a competitor because the competitor had a good 'presentation'. I didn't. The HO called me later to tell me that he wished I had done tha job. He said that the salesman was nice, honest, etc., but the salesman did not do the job. A couple of kids did, and the HO was not impressed or satisfied. Paid me to check out system.

[jfs1138]

i'm a died in the wool DIY homeowner who just paid several hundred dollars to the pro's to come out and install an extra return air vent for me in my sons room. i've been happy with the company doing my regular maintenance (another thing that I pay them to do!) so I asked them to estimate that work for me. Luckily the attic access over it is easy and so they were able to do it for what I considered a reasonable cost.

They did run flex-duct ;) But it was properly supported and not crimped or bent and they didn't make a mess in my house and didn't even leave any drywall dust laying around when they cut the new vent hole in his ceiling.

They didn't bug me about payment or even want me to do anything that day. I just got their bill in the mail today for exactly what they estimated.

I hang out here so that I can know what they should be doing to my equipment, and to make sure that it gets done properly. Not to put you guys out of business by stealing your double secret advice ;) Without what I've learned around here I'd probably be burning out my blower motor by closing all the other vents upstairs to try to force more air into his room. Already what I've learned here has let me give advice to other folks that there were solutions to their problems and that they should find a local company that can tell them this that or the other. So you're helping to drive business to the more reputable among you by giving out this info!

I, for one, really appreciate it and hope that you won't be made cynical by chewing gum and bailing wire folks! Both items have their place and it can be fun to build things out of them ;) But not when your family's health and safety are concerned... But that doesn't mean I shouldn't know how to do it properly, at least with enough detail to know if the "pro" is doing it properly.

Thanks folks,
James