Should I ask for references on front end?

[thunderglass]

I've got 6 HVAC contractors coming on Friday to give me estimates on changing out my HVAC system. Two from Trane, Two from Carrier and two fron Bryant. Me and wife are in disagreement on weather to ask for a customer list on the front end. She thinks we should ask for that list after getting a written estimate so we won't make them mad and jack up the price which also brings up the question as to weather I should play it dumb when they come or be very specific on what I expect such as doing an audit to size the units properly, customer list. I do plan on telling them that I want a 16+ SEER and 92+AFUE split dual zoned system as a general guide. Just not sure how much detail to go into?
Thanks,
Stan

[fixit50]

I would just ask, have you installed anything for my neighbors or someone close by. You may know the person where it was installed and they the other homeowner if you know them can let you see their work. The most important thing is insurance, this reason protects you because if one of the employees gets hurt on your property they can sue you if the company in not insured, 2nd, is the license and is it current you can ask for this and also the insurance. You can even demand a certificate of insurance made out to you. There are so many things you can get into like a bond for performance. Called a performance bond. Just be upfront with each one and tell them you would like all the info attached to their bid. Then make your choice. I hope this helps you. http://www.referwork.com/ref/choosing_right_contractor.htm

Have a great day... :)

[Edited by 9mmnow on 02-10-2005 at 04:56 PM]

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

Let them know up front what you expect if they want to come out.
This way you won't be wasting a hackers time!

[Collin]

I don't get into bidding wars so if I find out you are getting 6 quotes thats when I might jack my price up.

But asking for references doesn't offend me at all. In fact you get my full attention because we have awesome references.

[Irascible]

Just an opinion thunder: Get the references and follow-up on them. But in my mind they're only one very small factor. The company that I would consider to be the biggest crook in two counties has no problems producing enthusiastic references. And Collin is right. Don't tell anyone you're getting six quotes. It would be easy for them to assume that you want low bid (AKA a crappy install).

[susanfromsandiego]

I don't see much point in asking for references. Who's going to give you the name of someone who doesn't like their work? As for Collin's arrogant remark about jacking up the price if someone is getting several bids, this is exactly why you need to interview several different contractors. Not for a "bidding war", but to see who you feel you can trust and who will answer your questions. I talked to a couple contractors a while back and wasn't satisfied with any of them---it had nothing to do with price because they were all in the same ball park. Rather, it was the attitude (condescending) and in one case it was because he told me I could replace the outside unit but leave the 18 yr old air handler, etc. in place. Of course, his price was about $1000 less than the others---how stupid did he think I was? All I want is a contractor who doesn't treat me like an idiot child and who will give me a straight answer about the warranty (I need a specialized ceiling-mounted air handler so can't use the same brand as the condenser). So far either they didn't know or avoided a direct answer. I'm not looking forward to the next round of interviews.

PS None of them mentioned doing a Manual J. All they did was ask the sq. footage and then tell me I needed either 1 1/2 or 2 ton. If I ask about it, they'll get all resentful and defensive because a -woman- tried to tell them how to do their job, or they'll say I don't need it. Sigh.

[Edited by susanfromsandiego on 02-11-2005 at 04:29 AM]

[Mr Bill]

Lordy are they marrying your daughter or performing heart surgery? I personally believe some HO get carried away with all the BS "been reading to much into what is posted here" You know the most important part of anyone's credentials that I might hire to do a job for me is "ATTITUDE" then I go from there, why don't you call the FBI and get a complete background check on them they may have forgot to turn on the gas stop on a new install and the HO may have reported them because when they tried the heat it would not work. My advise to you would be look to your heart first because even the very best service company's are only as good as the "man doing your job", and quit reading so much into what you see here! yes this site can be of a great starting point and but if your looking for someone else to blame if some of the advise your receive here is responsible for an install gone wrong go for it, but God gave you a mind and to keep it healthy you must use it, and remember just because the sales pitch is got you thinking the guy is an angel right out of heaven remember what the Bible says about wolfs in sheep's clothing go with instinct.

[Paladin]

Just the act of asking for references will produce a reaction from the person doing the estimate, be watchful and observant to what that reaction is. As for the Manual J heat loss and gain calculations, these are time consuming and usually unnecessary for retrofits, however I am usually happy to oblige if the customer decides on using my company. After many years of pulling out old equipment and installing new, I can usually tell what a house needs enough to give a customer a good price on equipment. If, after doing the calculations I find I am off a half ton or a few btu's the price I quoted origially rarely changes. Additionally, I find an educated consumer to be the best customer, and will spend extra time bringing a home owner up to speed on anything they aren't familiar with.

[golan37]

Ask for the references but more to see what the reaction that he gives you is, if there is any hesitation, you can scratch that company off your list. No company will offer a reference that will be other than 5 stars.

It won't hurt one bit to let them know what your expectations are. Consider it to be forewarning to them.

If you are not having any comfort issues the heat loss/gain calculation may not be of importance but there are differences in the capacity curves of the various manufacturers equipment that will sometimes create problems when you take the attitude that 3 tons of brand X will do the exact same job as 3 tons of brand Y. It's not unusual to find a brand that will provide 3 tons capacity at 90 degrees and another that won't provide 3 tons til the outdoor temperature hits 100 degrees.

[frank shelley]

Personally I like being asked. We have done the work for the areas number one and very particular Custom home bldger and rental property owner, he has a great rep himself for many yrs and so it's always been a feather in my cap to be able to use that ref.
I do not participate in bidding wars either and if I find out on the phone that anymore than 3 bids are being sought just for an average job I am straight up front and decline the offer. (And tell them why if they ask)

My experience the HO with 4,5 or 6 estimates gets so bombarded with various info., confusion sets in and then by the time I get there Im asked to decipher every other contractors comments OR there is a price war being set up OR HO looking for the cheapest to get by.

I dont care what Breed of equipment, search out a reputable Co. that does the best Installation and Svc.

[Al Gregory]

I can honestly say in 25 years i never had a customer ask for references or a certificate of insurance unless it was a contractor. We have been in business over 40 years though and have a good rep in the area.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by heaterman61
I can honestly say in 25 years i never had a customer ask for references or a certificate of insurance unless it was a contractor. We have been in business over 40 years though and have a good rep in the area.


I can relate to that, about the same here.

[bentruler]

Originally posted by frank shelley
I do not participate in bidding wars either and if I find out on the phone that anymore than 3 bids are being sought just for an average job I am straight up front and decline the offer. (And tell them why if they ask)
[/B]

Keep in mind an educated customer may have trouble getting good bids.

It took me 12 estimates to get 3 that would do a ManJ and ManD. On a house with electric baseboard, so no equipment to replace. Sizing from 3 to 8 tons. (4 was right)

When you're calling around you get the gambit of everything from "You want to commercial package units with all your duct work run on the outside of the house.", "You should hire us because we're union." (Note: I don't care about the union / non-union thing, he had no other reasons.), or the guy who lowers the price right there to get you to sign. And my favorite guy who tried to get me to sign the contract telling me "Its just an acknowledgement you got the bid, I need to show my boss."

Sometimes its not price shopping, its anti-idiot shopping, and it can be hard.

[fat eddy]

Do you know that Carrier and Bryant are the same equipment ?

Why don't you get bids on diferent brands of equipment.
There is no reason to stick with a Carrier or a Trane, in fact these units are probably very low on the list of quality but high on name recognition.

Choose the contractor you trust and don't get hung-up on the difference of a few dollars geting a bad install won't be worth the difference.

Don't look for someone to do a load calc, if someone came to my house and told me he needed to do a load-calc to choose the proper size of my equipment I would show him the door ( on the grounds that he probably doesn;t have enough experience) Contractors use load calcs as a tool to try to build the customers confidence, other than that they are worthless.When a customer asks me to a load calc I agree then tell him that there is a two labor charge for the service.

[thunderglass]

First let me say to those who think that getting several bids is only looking to start a bidding war are short sighted, narrow minded and unable to see the woods for the trees being in the way. In no way shape or form would I ever trust anyone who I don't know with blind trust to not rip me off by overcharging. I shop around for everything. Everything. HVAC systems are no different. This is why I had 2 dealers from each brand come out, just to be sure I wasn't paying for the Queen Mary and getting the SS Row Boat. I'm not looking for the lowest bidder but price is a factor.

As far as it went today, I had five show up. I have already eliminated three from the list and price was not a factor in eliminating them. In fact I haven't seen one price so far. I've already picked the one who I would like to use so lets hope his price is in the ball park.

I will say that I'm smarter than the average bear and well read before this process started and when I ask a question, I'm full aware of what the correct response should be. It's part of the process.

[fat eddy]

I was trying to pint ou tthat you were well on your way to getting four estimates on the exact same piece of equipment. ( Carrier- Bryant same equipment ) I was also trying to let you know that there are other brands out there that are at minimum just as good as these Lennox, Rheem, I was also letting you know that load calcs are tremendously over rated, here is an example you could spend three hours doing a perfect load calc on a home and get it down to the exact amount of heat gain heat loss right ? yes you can. Then what, they only make units in certain predetermined sizes anyway don't they, so if your inbetween which you will be, then which one do you buy. Exactly, the one the contractor recommends which is the same one he would of recommended without the load calc. I mean face it if your load calc comes out to 44,311.5 BTU's an hour do you go shopping for a 44,311.5 BTU an hour unit no you don't you look for a 3.5 ton unit, or even a 3 ton unit which would be the better choice because load calcs are done for extreme conditions which is a very very small perentage of the run time of your equipment.

Hope this helps

[Paladin]

Also keep in mind that Manual J and especially Manual D only begins the process of designing a good system. I know plenty of contractors here in Colorado that try to go by the book (or software) only to have their service techs explaining to the customer why their systems will not heat their house to the required four degree variable. More expensive but critical "specialty fittings" designed to reduce turbulence and therefore increase available static pressure are a good bet for the thoughtful contractor. I was taught early on to regard airflow as both science and art and do not suffer from "Testosterone Poisioning" when it comes to always being right. Hiring the man who truly loves what he does first and looks to make a buck second can be a good wager.

[Collin]

Now I remember why I stopped posting here.

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by Paladin
I was taught early on to regard airflow as both science and art and do not suffer from "Testosterone Poisioning" when it comes to always being right.


I LOVE IT !!!!!!

[susanfromsandiego]

Bentruler said: "Sometimes it's not price shopping, its anti-idiot shopping, and it can be hard." Exactly the point I was trying to make. Evidently Collin doesn't get it. Those of you in the business who say that one or two bids is enough haven't seen it from the customer's point of view. This is a major expenditure for me and I will not sign a contract until I'm satisfied the contractor is competent, and that has nothing to do with a bidding war. I did the same thing when I refinanced my mortgage---I called brokers until I found someone who could explain things clearly and who knew what he was talking about. He did an excellent job. Hopefully I'll find an hvac contractor who will also do an excellent job. But anyone who is offended at the idea of my interviewing several people obviously is not the contractor I'm looking for. Maybe those of you who feel that way should tell customers that up front so we won't waste each other's time.

[thunderglass]

Thank you Susan, I could have not said it better.

[Chuck 999]

I dont usually reply to any of the posts on this site, but this one kind of hit a soft spot.Generaly its good to get some estimates and see what the differing opions are, but there is a point to where you start to get too many opions and you start tapping into the butchers that do exist and then who do you believe? The reason this is a soft spot is because I actually was awarded a project, did the job, completed the job and because the homeowners just couldnt let well enough alone, had another contractor come in and inspect the work.All you contractors out there, it was a 900 sq.ft retro not much to it, well to make a long story short this job was a open space and we chose a central return system because of the configuration of the roof and the openness of the space and cost effeciency.The layout of the job was already discussed and approved and so we moved forward on this.The other contractor fed off the homeowners concerns and made me look like a hack. Now, what really makes me concerned is that my expertise as a hvac tech/installer is of high end homes(10-15 million dollar)and commercial work(church's, dealerships, malls, etc.).What they did here is that, they took a professional business and yes I did show them pictures of these homes, turned us into everyone else and we are not everyone else, we are a custom mechanical contractor.My point of this whole babble is that, if you wander too far you start to lose touch.Use a contractor that someone you know used who had a good experience with them and trust them and let them do their job! It sounds like this is a furnace replacement and I do understand that you want your money's worth, but 6 estimates, come on, why not 10 or 15, where do you stop? Too much information, everybody has there own take on something and it becomes confusing after so many contractors.Use somebody your parents used or your best friend used and look at their work and hire them and save yourself alot of time and concern.

[Chuck 999]

Originally posted by fat eddy
I was trying to pint ou tthat you were well on your way to getting four estimates on the exact same piece of equipment. ( Carrier- Bryant same equipment ) I was also trying to let you know that there are other brands out there that are at minimum just as good as these Lennox, Rheem, I was also letting you know that load calcs are tremendously over rated, here is an example you could spend three hours doing a perfect load calc on a home and get it down to the exact amount of heat gain heat loss right ? yes you can. Then what, they only make units in certain predetermined sizes anyway don't they, so if your inbetween which you will be, then which one do you buy. Exactly, the one the contractor recommends which is the same one he would of recommended without the load calc. I mean face it if your load calc comes out to 44,311.5 BTU's an hour do you go shopping for a 44,311.5 BTU an hour unit no you don't you look for a 3.5 ton unit, or even a 3 ton unit which would be the better choice because load calcs are done for extreme conditions which is a very very small perentage of the run time of your equipment.

Hope this helps


That is the most intellegent thing I have read on this site in a long time and that is about the load calc, manufactures only make so many units with varying sizes and you have to make do.The only thing the load calc is doing in the ho mind is separating the pros from the cons. We all know that over experience you can look at a home and view the structure(windows,doors,wall size,insulaton factor,age of the home,etc.)because if you have done enough load calc's you can equate a home you did a calc for and the one you are a presently looking at.

[Collin]

Originally posted by susanfromsandiego
Bentruler said: "Sometimes it's not price shopping, its anti-idiot shopping, and it can be hard." Exactly the point I was trying to make. Evidently Collin doesn't get it. Those of you in the business who say that one or two bids is enough haven't seen it from the customer's point of view.
Bull****.
You don't think I have ever had to make purchases?
I have NEVER gotten six bids on anything.
But then again, I have a respect for other peoples time.

[Mr Bill]

Ouch! that sure touched a sore spot! but you could have abbreviated the bad word to BS lets have some respect here it reflects on all of us believe it or not, some HO's stereo type us already. Is vulgarity in the rules of this site?

[bentruler]

Originally posted by Collin
You don't think I have ever had to make purchases?
I have NEVER gotten six bids on anything.
But then again, I have a respect for other peoples time. [/B]

I'm not sure it has anything to do with respect for other peoples time. Many of the bidders sure as anything didn't respect my time.

I spent some time this morning trying to think of anything I've ever bought that has been non-trade related (Electric, HVAC, roofing, painting) where the actual labor was more important than the physical product. The only thing I could come up with is movers. And you can get insurance cheap to cover them.

Now I'll assume you're a good installer and not some hack running as fast as you can from the bank. You most likely know who the other good trades are from your business interacting with them, and you know who the hacks are. You won't call the hack roofers of electricians.

Have your wife call 3 HVAC companies and get estimates to replace your system. She needs to pick 3 at random from the phone book, no helping. See what kind of response you get. There are likely 100 listed near me, and the hack %%% seems high.

I'd love to ask people @ work for numbers, but the response I got from nearly everyone was "I've got a furnace and changed the filter when I moved in. You should do that what, every 5 years or so?" The one guy who had a company's name was too far away.

[Collin]

I feel there is a difference between phoning 6 companies off the bat for quotes vs. phoning 3 companies and being dissatisfied. At that point, I fully understand the need for more help.

[duc dowg]

Collin, These idiots are ho's who dont know s#!t.They think that they are in charge. But we are the ones doing the work or in the case of 6 bids haveing our time wasted. In turn running up the price from all six bidders. Dumb a$$es!

[Chill]

As anyone heard of Service Magic? You get four bids, but first you see the profiles of each company and references and pictures of there work and more. Thunder this would make it easier for you to find contractors, that are all ready pre-screened for you.

[bentruler]

Originally posted by Collin
I feel there is a difference between phoning 6 companies off the bat for quotes vs. phoning 3 companies and being dissatisfied. At that point, I fully understand the need for more help.


Ahhh yes. That would be exactly what I meant. I'll call three, and schedule replacements if necessary.

Duc Dog, well... I'm just going to assume that's internet anonymity talking.

[frank shelley]

Originally posted by thunderglass
First let me say to those who think that getting several bids is only looking to start a bidding war are short sighted, narrow minded and unable to see the woods for the trees being in the way. In no way shape or form would I ever trust anyone who I don't know with blind trust to not rip me off by overcharging. I shop around for everything. Everything. HVAC systems are no different. This is why I had 2 dealers from each brand come out, just to be sure I wasn't paying for the Queen Mary and getting the SS Row Boat. I'm not looking for the lowest bidder but price is a factor.

I will say that I'm smarter than the average bear and well read before this process started and when I ask a question, I'm full aware of what the correct response should be. It's part of the process.

Then what your saying to me is when I manage out my time like I do I then am short sighted and narrow minded. Well I can live with that.
What you may not be aware of is just how many consumers there are that do practice and I might add enjoy starting a pricing contest like between car lots and those looking for low ballers. Without the aid of a fulltime salesman that larger co. have all I would manage is blowing a couple hrs of my time on each one of them and there are several of these type week-in and week-out. Certainly not everyone that desires 5 or more estimates is one of these people.

Something else you may not relieze we have to guard against. There are lots of people calling for multiple bids and estimates that actually are just fishing for free info that have every intention of going to Home depot or have their brothers cousin do the job when they think they have enough input on the project. To many red flags for me when Im 5th, 6th ot 10th in line for that "Free estimate"

[thunderglass]

The one I liked best was the one that had all the information in a fold out binder. He asked me to look through it as he measured the rooms. The first page had his business license, the next page was his certificate of insurance and limits of liability, next was his bond certificate followed by references and feedback forms sent in to the home company after past installations were finished. He then had a page that stated his companies standards and what every installation included. I in turn gave him a sheet that spelled out what kind of system I was looking for. I plan on using him even if he is not the lowest price. If he's the highest it could be a tough decision, I suppose it depends how much higher.
The worst one was the guy that came in with no information and then asked me how I felt about getting a permit because you know sometimes an inspector looks at more than just the new installation and some home owners don't want them snooping around. O.K. red flag.............next!

[Mr Bill]

Originally posted by thunderglass
The one I liked best was the one that had all the information in a fold out binder. He asked me to look through it as he measured the rooms. The first page had his business license, the next page was his certificate of insurance and limits of liability, next was his bond certificate followed by references and feedback forms sent in to the home company after past installations were finished. He then had a page that stated his companies standards and what every installation included.


I think I saw that company advertising in Cosmopolitan last month, ROFLAO!! Got to be careful about those wolves in sheep's clothing good luck!

[Edited by mrbillpro on 02-14-2005 at 10:32 PM]

[ct2]

Call the dept of consumer affairs in your area and ask if they have had any complaints filed on the contractor you chose

state licencing board to see if they are reputable contractors

a customer list? that would be a list of the contractors friends that will be glad to tell you what a wounderfull job the guy did

deal with a reputable company and not someone that "can do it for half the price of the other guy"