Cracked heat exchange, now I need a new unit. Options?

[gn1220]

I just found out that my furnace is going south. It seems the heat exchange has a crack in it. Both units were replaced in '86 so they suggest replacing both units now. After the repair guy told me about the dual stage unit, which I like, added up parts and labor for a furnace, a/c unit, humidifier combo, the total was just over $7,000 This seems very expensive to me. Is this the going rate for a heating/cooling combo these days? Anybody in the K.C. area do side work that could beat this price?

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

You obviously didn't read the rules you agreed to when joining this site because you broke almost every one of them in 1 post.

Be prepared to get crushed.

[Irascible]

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=1241

That would be #3.

Talking about side work with a bunch of shop owners around is heresy. :)

[Advanced Response]

You don't want to shop on price alone...
You want to shop for a quality contractor with good referances and is recommended by friends or family...
If you shop on price alone, you may end up with a system similar to kcrossley(look for the trane 16I post) or possibly even worse...

Installation is key and standing behind the system after the installation...
Get referances from friends and family and check the companies out closely,, if one company is quite abit cheaper than the other then there is probably a reason.. Do not price shop for the lowest bid, shop for a quality system installed by a quality contractor...

Lowest bid =may= worst installation..

Good luck
J

[1manband]

I live in K.C. and can easily beat that price:

Un-Licensed Heating and Cooling is pleased to submit the following proposal for your review:

Installation of two furnaces to accomodate your home at xxx Main St. We agree to size the two units exactly the same as the guy before us did. We will not do a load calculation on your home nor an inspection of the the ductwork, efficiecy is highly over-rated. We will guarentee our work until the check clears. If you have a problem with your system next week call the "over-priced" contractor that provided insurance, bond, licensing, load calculations, warranty, and a solid reputation for about $x,xxx more than our proposal.

Thank You U.L. Heating & Cooling.
1-800-bankrupt

[gn1220]

Please forgive me for not following the rules, I didn't mean any harm. I wasn't asking for an exact quote, just wanted to show the estimate they gave me to see if that was in the ballpark for a complete system. I understand buying these items is like buying a car, it just depends what options, kind of warranty, brand, etc. and the price will show accordingly. I was really just trying to see if this was the going rate. I'll go back to the phone book and won't trouble you gentlemen any longer.

[Irascible]

BTW: Who said the heat exchanger was cracked? Did they document the exact location(s) of the crack? Did they show you? Has anyone else confirmed the existence of those cracks?

My guess would be that ten or twenty percent of all cracked heat exchanger diagnoses are bogus. A heat exchanger may not, but it can last much longer than 20 years. I can't speak for your area. But our local utility does a free safety inspection. While I happen to think very lowly of the typical local utility man's skills, they are useful for confirming the existence of a crack if you tell them exactly where it supposedly is in advance.

[gn1220]

Originally posted by Irascible
BTW: Who said the heat exchanger was cracked? Did they document the exact location(s) of the crack? Did they show you? Has anyone else confirmed the existence of those cracks?



A very well known HVAC company that has serviced this house for years sent a tech this morning to look at the blower. After be removed a small piece of debris from the blower it was fine. He then checked the burners and noticed that, when the blower came on, the flame on one of the burners was "rolling out the bottom" He then said the exchange was cracked and, with a unit 20 years old, it's just a matter of time before it fails which could release carbonmonoxide into the house.

[Irascible]

Hmm. I'm still skeptical. But then again, I'm always skeptical. You can't imagine how many well known HVAC contractors have sold out to the almighty dollar. Do they say or even think to themselves that they're crooked? Of course not. The ALL think they're good, even as they twist the knife they placed in your back.

Personally I'd call a second contractor out on that furnace (try to find a good one!). Simply tell them that a buddy noticed something odd about the flame and that you'd like to know what's causing it. If the flame is really goofing up like you say, they'll have no trouble seeing it. If the second contractor attributes it to a cracked heat exchanger, you'll have your confirmation. Plus you'll have a feel for that company's tradesmen (which can be very different than dealing with their salesmen) and know if you want a bid from them. If you're going to spend many thousands, why not spend another $100 to see that it's justified?

[woowoo]

Tell us again why you need a new a/c system?
Is it broke too?

[jdenyer]

Welcome to home ownership, isn't it the American dream:D Seriously that price that was quoted certainly doesn't sound unrealistic to me. Brand is not as important as quality installation.

[nehps]

Iam getting sooooooooo tired of hearing about us being expensive, money, money, money, I had a lady call yesterday, she calls from a condo devolpement I rake care of most of the place, when the h.o.'s call the management they say to call me, well the lady is from England, she called me when she first moved in last year, upsatirs hot, told her can adjust dampers a little, she *****ed about me being there for 35 mins. and charging $100.00 she didnt beliveme called another co. they said samr thing, now she called gas co. they came out $160.00 labor $50.00 ignitor. She calls me and says the management rec. me and she had trouble with a/c, then says Gas Co. charge me $160- for labor and there crooks who the hell is worthy that and she now wants me as her HVAC Contractor, and how much do you charge I tell her I would have charged her $150.00 overtime then she says how outrageous it is what we charge, and says Iam in the wrong busineess, that you guys arent worth that much, then says can I come out in spring to check a/c, I tell her your not the type of customer I would want, and she insulted me call someone else. Sorry guys just venting, a week ago a lady saysyou should be driving a Porsche for a van, also lost another job to a guy $500.00 cheaper did it on the side, you should have seen the replacement, HACK JOB. You state can anybody on the side do it, what do you do for work? You come on here and insult us and our trade, cheap bastard.

[nehps]

You probably like others I came across looking for cheap cheap, paid $2,000.00 for golf clubs!

[beenthere]

Not to talk price, but if your getting 2 stage heat and 2 stage cooling, thats a pretty good price.

If you get other estimates, make sure your comparing apples to apples.

[gje1]

Most heat exchangers can be examined with a flashlight and mirror for
cracks. If this doesn’t reveal any noticeable cracks. It may be necessary to perform a static check to observe flame characteristics.
This can be done by closing all hot air outlets and with the burners lit
observing the flame for any distortion while the fan is in operation. Observation of flames prior to the fan running should be noted so a comparison of the flames before and after the fan starts may be made. Generally closing the primary air shutters to soften the flames aids in the observation of flame distortion. The furnace should run for a short period of time while performing a static test in the event a “hair line” crack is present. Heating of the heat exchanger may reveal such cracks as the heat exchanger starts to expand. In serpentine heat exchangers it may be a little more difficult to detect flame distortion but those who have observed these types of burner configurations will, should, be able to determine flame distortion if the crack is opened enough to cause distortion. In some cases it may be necessary to preform other tests to determine if a crack is present and this may include optical inspections. These are basic tests that IRASCRBLE eluded to that “gas guys” preform. With our low skill level, most, if not all, cracks our found with a flashlight and mirror. On serpentine heat exchanger if the crack is server enough. The flame is still distorted enough to and in some cases will be deflected away from the inlet port of the heat exchanger, if that’s what the industry calls it.
IRASCRIBLE you pointed out the rules to this person. You may want to refresh your own memory. Help prevent flame wars and no insults. Couldn’t help noticing your residence. I’m one of those “gas guys”.

[gn1220]

nehps, you don't know me so don't ever call me a bastard again. Call me cheap all day, but with a wife that stays home with our two kids, house and car payments, diapers and all the other bills, I have to be cheap. Sorry I can't drop $X,000 on a furnace without asking any questions. I wanted to seek out professionals to get the best, most honest answers I could. Fortunately, there are a few others on this board that were nice and professional enough to do that. You, sir, are not one of them.

To the REAL pros, thank you for your advice. I will shop around and plan to deal only with trained pros, even if it costs a little more. I can't put a price on my family's safety. I also plan to go with the two stage unit because I like the idea behind the way it works. Also, the tech that was here did check the flame pattern with the fan on and off. You could easily see the flame blow down and roll out the bottom when the fan kicked on.

BTW nehps, my golf clubs were my Grandfathers pretty nice graphite set. Didn't cost me a dime.

[Irascible]

Since you saw it for yourself, I'll drop my skepticism. And since the mod(s) seem to allow it these days, I'll say that it is a little expensive for a run of the mill install. But run of the mill means crappy. If it were a top notch install by a reputable company using nice equipment and included an extended warranty with other minor system enhancements, then it could be entirely reasonable.

Are you going to be in the house long? If not, don't change them both. You'll never get your money back in equity. And despite what some might say, the energy savings from a typical furnace changeout is nothing to write home about.

[rsmith46]

I'm in KC if you give me a call I'll give you a bid and second opinion. 510-2817 Rick - RES Mechanical

[Irascible]

-

[golf junkie]

Originally posted by nehps
You probably like others I came across looking for cheap cheap, paid $2,000.00 for golf clubs!

Well yea, but you know golf clubs are important to some of us!

That old furnace just hides in the basement.

[gje1]

Most heat exchangers can be examined with a flashlight and mirror for cracks. If this doesn’t reveal any noticeable cracks. It may be necessary to perform a static check to observe flame characteristics.
This can be done by closing all hot air outlets and with the burners lit
observing the flame for any distortion while the fan is in operation. Observation of flames prior to the fan running should be noted so a comparison of the flames before and after the fan starts may be made. Generally closing the primary air shutters to soften the flames aids in the observation of flame distortion. The furnace should run for a short period of time while performing a static test in the event a “hair line” crack is present. Heating of the heat exchanger may reveal such cracks as the heat exchanger starts to expand. In serpentine heat exchangers it may be a little more difficult to detect flame distortion but those who have observed these types of burner configurations will, should, be able to determine flame distortion if the crack is opened enough to cause distortion. In some cases it may be necessary to perform other tests to determine if a crack is present and this may include optical inspections. These are basic tests that IRASCRBLE eluded to that “gas guys” perform. With our low skill level, most, if not all, cracks our found with a flashlight and mirror. On serpentine heat exchanger if the crack is server enough. The flame is still distorted enough to and in some cases will be deflected away from the inlet port of the heat exchanger, if that’s what the industry calls it.
IRASCRIBLE you pointed out the rules to this person. You may want to refresh your own memory. Help prevent flame wars and no insults. Couldn’t help noticing your residence. I’m one of those “gas guys”

[fat eddy]

Cracks in heat exchangers are over rated nearly all heat exchangers are cracked, if you pull ten heat exchangers out of furnaces that have run for two or more seasons I will assure you that nine of them will have at least one crack in them. As for the price that guy gave you just get some more bids and compare at that point I would also have someone look at the furnace again and ask him to show you the cracks. Seven thousand dollars for a furnace does sound like a bit much if it were the whole system he might be in the ballpark.

[murph35640]

in your first post you wanted someone who would do this as a side job & now all of a sudden you tell us that you are seeking a pro? which is it? There is no comparison between a side jobber & a legitimate co. The hack as they are called has no overhead period, they dont have to be concerned with the little things that make the real pros a more logical choice. you know the little things like hmmmmm maybe liability insurance, licenses, equipment warranty, maybe keeping insurance on his employees so that if they get hurt while illegally installing a system on the side for some cheap bastard maybe the cheap bastard is the only one who will get sued. Of course the hack will be cheaper but then what happens if the system doesnt perform? You usually cant find the hack after you write him the check so you have to start over. and i can guarantee that if i go behind mr. side jobber to straighten out his screwups it will cost more than you saved by being a cheap bastard!

[justinothertech]

Do you remember the kid in school that always had his hand up ready to ask a stupid question, apparently several of you guys do. Sort of aggrevating isn't it. I guess name calling isn't the most mature response and it looks like this site will always be subjected to these type of questions. My response to the original thread would be that estimates don't cost a penny, so why not take the time and get several from the contractors in your area, I'm sure KC has at least a thousand. Then you may be able to make a decision based on your financial situation.

[gn1220]

Originally posted by justinothertech
Do you remember the kid in school that always had his hand up ready to ask a stupid question, apparently several of you guys do. Sort of aggrevating isn't it.

I'm sorry, I was always taught there is no such thing as a dumb question. If this is so aggrevating to you, don't reply.

Thanks to the few of you who gave polite, honest answers but please consider this thread closed. I can't see anything else positive coming from it. Again, I'm sorry to have violated your space with my unprofressional questions. This board was forwarded to me by some other stupid, unprofessional that thought I might get some help here.

[legendary furnaceman]

He posted on here and said that the flame was rolling under the burner and was dancing around. Doesn't that sound like a plugged lung in the heat exchanger, meybe carboned up?

I haven't seen anybody talk about the water test, it the way i like to test for cracked heat exchangers. It's really easy too. Cut a hole above the furnace in the plenum, take a water bottle and pour a little water over the lungs, the water will run over the heat exchangers and go through any cracks. Then you use a flashlite and search for any water INSIDE the lungs.

[pkd550]

irascible
very lowly of a typical utility man's skills unless you point out where the crack is
i guess your waiting for them to write some kind of violation so you can get a second opinion to install a new furnace?

[Roscoe]

gn


Anybody in the K.C. area do side work that could beat this price?

No dumb questions??????????? well maybe not, but this is definetly insulting, to the contractors in your area, and you are asking someone to be deceitful to their employer, their fellow employees and the industry

And buying a custom furnace replacement IS NOT like buying a CAR!!!!!!

A Ford from one dealer is the same as a Ford from another dealer.

No two installs are alike.

[Irascible]

If you were to say that the typical HVAC contractor is a hack, I would be surprised if you got much disagreement from the contractors on this board. And while someone would inevitably take offense, that someone would have a very narrow and unrealistic view. I have seen what my fellow tradesmen do as a matter of course. The bulk of it isn't pretty. Most contractors here know it. And most of the contractors here are the exception to that rule.

The same goes for the typical PG&E tech that makes housecalls. They may be the nicest guys in the world. But by and large they don't have sufficient training to be handling funaces. If after reading all the technical data that gets flung around here a PG&E tech still doesn't know that, then he has a very narrow and unrealistic view in my opinion.

My comment was not aimed at the exceptions to the rule, hence the word "typical". There ARE some very talented PG&E techs, I know. If you or whoever happens to be one of them then God bless. I tell my customers that like anything else, calling PG&E out is a risk. They may get good. They may get bad. If they get bad, say goodbye to their gas valve. A combustible gas leak detector in the wrong hands means trouble. By law gas valves are ALLOWED to leak to the manifold. I informed a PG&E boss of that fact and he cared not one wit. He had his policies and reality was irrelevant to them.

All of that is just my opinion, of course. Feel free to flame me to a crisp if you desire. But it will be a one man flame war. I won't be participating. People can criticize my trade all they want and I don't take it personal because I'm confident of my skills. This will be my last reply in this thread. My e-mail is posted if you want to continue the discussion. And my phone number is too if you really want to have a discussion. If so, keep the profanities to a minimum please. :D

[coldmilk]

Originally posted by nehps
Iam getting sooooooooo tired of hearing about us being expensive, money, money, money, .

I gotta good one for you,

Last summer I had a customer want to switch from water to remote air cooled condensing (using too much water) I lost the job to a hack around 7000 less than me, anyway all said and done the customer got a condensing unit sized for half of what they needed so they still had to use water, there goes the new system paying for itself now you need to pump water and run fans.

[AllTemp]

Here's a good one for Money Money...

Had my water pumped changedout today at the Dodge dealer a whooping $756.00 ( V10 Egine ) While I was there rescued the sales department from a hot week end...

Did a compressor change out 5 ton scroll.... General Manager made me a deal , shaved off some $$$$ on that water pump... The $756.00 price was the discoutned price...

5 ton Scroll change out, $1,140.00 plus the $350.00 they over charged me inthe service department and were all happy...

[fat eddy]

SURVEY

Has anyone ever actually tried to use a bottle of water to check a heat exchanger, I've got to tell you that I have never heard of that before and when I did I found it very amusing that a competitor is out there trying to do that. within a few seconds of reading it I thought of at least fifty reasons why that was a bad Idea and only one reason that it might be a good Idea but I don't think that washing the outside of a heat exchanger is a necessary task.

[dorrmann]

Originally posted by fat eddy
SURVEY

Has anyone ever actually tried to use a bottle of water to check a heat exchanger, I've got to tell you that I have never heard of that before and when I did I found it very amusing that a competitor is out there trying to do that. within a few seconds of reading it I thought of at least fifty reasons why that was a bad Idea and only one reason that it might be a good Idea but I don't think that washing the outside of a heat exchanger is a necessary task.

Do a search for it on the boards. A lot of people use it, and have had good success with it.

[fat eddy]

That is unbeleivable,

Please explain to me how that would have a prayer of working and then I will tell you how that is not possible. I suppose it could work if there were a gaping hole in an exchanger ( which would not need a test ) but to find a crack!!! How is this possible ? What do you do with the water that you just poured onto the blower ? How do you get the exchanger to suck the water in ? This is as ridiculous as a smoke test. Just suffice it to say that you can tell every home owner that there is a 90% probability that there exchanger is cracked and you would not be lying about it.

[legendary furnaceman]

The test is simple, there always areas of the heat exchangers you can't visually inspect. I've used this method dozens of times and it always works. You always take the blower wheel out and set it to the side, no reason to get water in there.

I've used a squirt bottle, i find it works best, but you basically put water on top the lungs, it runs down the side's and bleeds through any cracks. This test works great for older furnaces, and when you find a crack, you can tell the customer to keep an eye on the inside of the lung, then do the water test and show them where the water is bleeding through. On large crack you'll always have a pool of water sitting inside the lung.

I've done other test's too, but i'm satisfied with this one, and i'm suprised if you've never done this test, its a common practise in our area amoung techs.

[fat eddy]

Not trying to be disrespectful but I would think that if I were going to cut a hole in a plenum then remove the blower assembly to find a crack I suppose I would just use a flashlight at that point and look up from the bottom and down from the top.

[operator]

Originally posted by fat eddy
Not trying to be disrespectful but I would think that if I were going to cut a hole in a plenum then remove the blower assembly to find a crack I suppose I would just use a flashlight at that point and look up from the bottom and down from the top.

How you going to see the crack on a duracurve?

Water is a great way to find the crack on those

[ct2]

FAT EDDY IS RIGHT

Cracks in heat exchangers are over rated nearly all heat exchangers are cracked, if you pull ten heat exchangers out of furnaces that have run for two or more seasons I will assure you that nine of them will have at least one crack in them. As for the price that guy gave you just get some more bids and compare at that point I would also have someone look at the furnace again and ask him to show you the cracks. Seven thousand dollars for a furnace does sound like a bit much if it were the whole system he might be in the ballpark.

All that carbon monoxide stuff is a bunch of bull-
carbon monoxide is just a selling tool to scare people isnt it eddie

Eddie , I am sure you have spent years in the heating busniess and that you actually do believe in what you have said
All you are doing is reinforcing the posters beliefe that his furnace needs no repairs and in doing so your advice will cause these people a great deal of harm or death.

The people that post here are not in busniess to cheat anyone, they know the busniess well and really do take pride in what we do , so please , so some where else to give your opinions. we are stating facts , we do not cheat people,we are in this busniesss to help and have return customers

you would be surprised at how much you can learn here from experts

[fat eddy]

Ok,

I'm a little confused should I tell the truth or should I hide the truth to protect the homeowner. I really don't care about the homeowner.

[ct2]

I'm a little confused should I tell the truth or should I hide the truth to protect the homeowner. I really don't care about the homeowner.


Well believe it or not there are many people on this board that care very much about the Homeowner. Those people are the customers that we provide a service to and we do not cheat.
Just like others out there, we are not in busniess to work for free and we are not in busniess to overcharge for our services.

When it comes to carbon monoxide and someones health it is no joke , their furnace has the potential to kill them

so we really do care about the homeowner

[legendary furnaceman]

When you stop caring about the homeowner, thats when people get hurt.

[ct2]

When you stop caring about the homeowner, thats when people get hurt

and thats when people get ripped off , sloppy work is done, and dangerous mistakes are made.

we arent selling used cars here,

And it only takes a few people that have no experience or education in this feild to convince folks that we are out to take advantage of them

yep the initial cost of a furnace is a shock to some folks, but a good unit will last them for a number of years.

instead of being concerned about the cost of a good quality unit and a installation team , I would be more leary ofthe 1 hour install guy that is selling you a furnace that was made in china

[ct2]

gn1220

By the way ,if You do have a cracked heat exchanger you really have no other options other than to replace it with the best quality furnace you can afford.

I just had to break this same news to a friend of mine that bought her house 6 months ago.
There was a home inspection done and they said the furnace was in good condition, and she is havingtrouble believingit went bad in the 6 months she has been there

Dont be suckered into believing that you do not need a new furnace...you do.

[gn1220]

As of now this is what I'm going with. Keep in mind this is for a 1,500 sq.ft. ranch.

75,000 btu Heil variable speed furnace
3 ton, 12 SEER Heil a/c unit
3 ton 12 SEER Heil coil
Honeywell electronic air cleaner
Aprilaire humidifier
All this for $1,500 less than the price in the original post. And this is from a well known company here in town, not some hack. I'm still waiting to get 2 more bids but this guy explained everything very well and was not pushy at all. He really seemed to care about the homeowner.