new to it all kinda..

[controlsnewbie]

Ok here is the deal I have a degree in electronics emphasis on IP which is PLC or industrial process control. I am seriously considering going for a bachelors degree in Building Automation because it looks so fun. The school I am going to is http://www.pct.edu they have a program there that is funded by Siemens. I would like to know if it is worth it as I can not find much info on job types and pay ranges in this field. Dont get me wrong now cause pay is not everything, but it is nice and I do have a family to support. With my associates in PLCs I am around 18.00 an hour. Am I looking at a paycut increase what? I do have the electrnics and controls stuff down PID networking cert that kinda stuff. PC skills are solid as well Pneumatic, 3-phase and so on. Is this degree worth it or are jobs there without? How does Siemens pay compared to others? Heck what do others pay?

Thanks for all who reply
Reagards Bryan

[controlsnewbie]

Thought this was a forum for controls guys? What gives all these people read but no reply.?? I may just decide to stick with PLC.

[NormChris]

You will need to learn the mechanical and air side of HVAC well so that you will know the sequences of operation, what needs to happen and when it needs to happen. You need a good course in HVAC fundamentals and then learn about economizers, vav and cv units, cooling stages, heating sequences and more.

After that you can probably get a controls position making about the same you currently make.

RSES has some pretty good study material on all of this as well as controls that you could study on your own as well.

Most HVAC manufacturers also have classes. Johnson Controls has classes on all this stuff for both their own people as well as non employees but all their classes are expensive.

Norm

[747ken]

Originally posted by NormChris


After that you can probably get a controls position making about the same you currently make.


That's $18/hr. Is that an entry level wage? If so, what would an experinced controls tech make after 5 yrs?
I suppose it depends on the techs talent, company worked for, and location.

[Control Man]

Gee you get IRKED if nobody responds in less than 24 hours , wait until your stuck waiting for approval on a controller or control sequence that is yet to be installed but needs to be in operation like YESTERDAYand see the FUN factor.

PLC is your basic LADDER LOGIC with a few added features DDC comes in many varieties from very simple to totally complicated.

HVAC background is very helpful to have and a Pneumatics background or good understanding is also a benefit

[controlsnewbie]

Nah!! controlman I was just trying to get a reply after seeing about 40 people had viewed the original post and no response. Not 'irked' at all. Thanks for the post though : )

[ps]

Depending on where you are located and the demand - my guess is you could go to work for a controls company right now! Granted, you would be entry-level and need to learn HVAC - but there is really nothing holding you back from making the jump now. I would kill for someone with your skills and would put you with someone who would teach you HVAC. That way you can experience the field and see if that specific bachelor's degree is what you want. My experience is a BSME is better in that you don't too narrowly focus on one field - but get all the fundamentals you will need for this or many other related fields. Check it out.

[fat eddy]

My experience has been that control techs make a little less than a mechanical service tech, and a little more than programmers. In my area of Ohio a Mechanical hvac service tech makes about 30 an hour where a control tech makes about 27

[controlsnewbie]

Thats funny to hear eddy. I recently had a conversation with a Siemens recruiter and she told me they could only offer entry level techs 33 a yr. Heck thats barely even 15 an hour.

Are you talking about union work?

[dapper]

The key word is 'entry-level'. Unfortunately I have come across way too many systems that were installed by brilliant 'controls' guys that had no clue how the system was supposed to operate. Concepts like economizers, enthalpy, and static pressure are not always understood by the control guys. All the money that their controls were going to save the customer get lost right here.

For instance, I have been servicing a large college campus this winter that uses 2 control contractors. Both have good reputations and some very smart electronics and programming guys. In one case I noticed many outdoor air dampers opening almost 100% on exremely cold days and preheat coils wide open to maintain 55f mixed air temps. When I asked the programmer what this was all about he explained that this is how he did minimum fresh air volume, just like the balancers do. He used the delta T between return air and outdoor air to calculate the percentage that the outdoor air damper should open to achieve the desired 'mixed air temp', ergo proper volume of OA. Makes sense, right? Sort of, until you realize that the majority of these air handlers have return fans and exhaust dampers that are slaved off the supply fan drive and the OA and MA dampers. Because the 'actual' mixed air temp is not looked at in the equation, in many cases, most of the return air is discharged outdoors as the dampers drive open and actual mixed air temps at the dampers may be in the area of 20f or so. These systems have been operating for years like this and nothing has been done yet even after I brought this up. Would you be suprised if I told you that most freeze-stats on this campus are jumped out? In instances where the mixed air temps were looked at in the equation I found several with the logic reversed. As the mixed air temps dropped, the dampers opened more. OUCH!!!!

Another instance on the same campus but different controls contractor..... Two steam boilers in a relatively small building , I notice that on cold days the heat comes up very slow. Maintenance guys frequently over-ride boilers to 'ON' but they really dont know why they have to do this. I looked at the program on a control system that I have never seen before. Found what looks like Visio type program. There was an elaborate lead/lag program and an outdoor reset schedule that I am guessing were copy and paste jobs. The problem with this system was, even though there were several calculations to swap the lead and lag etc. there was no provision to bring on a '2nd stage'. Therefor only one boiler would run no matter what the load was in the building. This system has been in place for 2 years.

This is not meant to demean you or any other controls guy but understand that as others have said, you really need a good understanding of HVAC systems to be a good controls guy. Great programmers can really screw up a system.
Until then, hopefully you will only be considered 'entry-level'.

[fat eddy]

Yes Union, and I am speaking of Journeyman rates, entry level will be decided on experience and testing when you join the union, You willbe placed somewhere in the ten year program, lets you get credit for 5 years your pay would be about 23 an hour to start.

[ps]

No question - you can't "do" controls unless you understand the equipment you are controlling. Even more importantly - the correct sequence of operations and appropriate control scheme must be implemented. Unfortunately, MY experience is that many of the HVAC guys, especially the operators, are un- or misinformed on their equipment and operations and are in the dark on how their own systems work. Often times they will 'jump out' or disconnect controls (bandaid approach) and walk away, and not try to identify the underlying problem. Many times this IS a control difficiency - but we can't fix what we don't or can't control. Communication is key.

It all comes down to training and education - for all parties. Until owners start treating their property as an asset - we are all just p*ssin' in the wind.

[sysint]

You would think that industrial would pay more than HVAC.

Alot of HVAC is starting to get "canned" applications. It's getting easier.

Also, any guy with HVAC experience that starts doing controls has a ton to learn about controllers, loops, etc... If you have that knowledge you have a big headstart on them.

Guys like to say (and no offense) that you can't "do" controls unless you understand the equipment.... well, you can't "do" controls unless you understand controllers (I/O-PID-protocols-programming).. works both ways.

You need experience one way or the other.

[ps]

Absolutely, that was my point - it was understood that the controls guy has (should have) the appropriate training and education on the system he is installing, engineering, etc. The HVAC/operator side should be held to the same standard, too. All sides can benefit from comprehensive and up-to-date training & education, and there is no substitute for experience.

Canned HVAC works and has been around quite awhile, but it still needs to be properly matched. Differentiation between controls knowledge and HVAC knowledge is often times fuzzy - major cause of misunderstandings and problems between controls, HVAC, operators, and owner/managers. Controls guys expected to know it all and apply - tough to do with neglected or POS equipment/systems. Ultimately, no matter how well designed or comprehensive the controls system - it is only as good as the equipment it controls and the operator.

[hvacker]

NormChris is right.What I see all the time is DDC techs that don't know systems and hvac techs that don't know ddc. The best ddc techs i've known were hvac techs first and often for quite awhile.

[ddcctrl]

Test and balance techs can make decent DDC techs as well (if they are good ones)

[ps]

Absolutely - a good balancer is worth their weight in gold and would be an excellent candidate for the controls field. Not sure, but balancers may be better compensated - although their job is more physically demanding and dirty oftentimes.

[osiyo]

Originally posted by hvacker
NormChris is right.What I see all the time is DDC techs that don't know systems and hvac techs that don't know ddc. The best ddc techs i've known were hvac techs first and often for quite awhile.

Sounds about right.

A controls tech, to be any good, needs a broad and sound knowledge of both sides of the fence. And not all of them have it.

And while I'll agree that that some of the best DDC controls types I know and have known were HVAC techs to start with. That is not to say that all HVAC techs will make good controls types. As most of us know, not all HVAC techs are equal. Some just know the minimum to do their jobs, and aren't much interested in putting forth the effort to do better than that.

Where I work, we have several HVAC techs turned automation and controls techs. One thing they have all had in common. The desire to always be learning more, to be inquisitive, to not just do the job but to do it better. Etc. Most have earned additional licensing/certifications of one sort or another beyond what they "have to have".

When I meet a HVAC tech of that sort wanting to get into DDC controls, I know he'll almost certainly succeed.

Likewise, when I meet an electronics or computer type wanting to get into DDC. Who resists the idea of getting dirty when there is a need, who concentrates on the electronic/computer end of things and seems to hate studying up on the mechanical end, and seems a bit TOO glued to a chair in front of a computer screen and tries to do all his troubleshooting from there. As versus grabbing couple tools and a ladder or whatever is needed and going to verify, hands on, that valve is really cycling, damper travels fully without binding, pipes that're supposed to be hot are hot, and those that're supposed to be cold are cold, etc. Odds are, he isn't gonna make it. Not with me, anyway.

When I get a trainee for automation tech who's not from a HVAC background, I tend to use a simple test, from time to time to verify whether or not he's making progress and is gonna make it. Guy will run across something that's not working, or not working right. Will call me and report problem. I'll ask, "What, specifically, isn't working right? And why isn't it?"

If the answer is always, "Hell if I know. I just know MY end of it is working right." We're gonna have a talk. Where I'm gonna explain that's NOT an acceptable answer.

I expect him to understand the basics about anything and everything he's controlling. And to have at a minimum, basic troubleshooting skills. ie I don't expect him to be able to properly charge a refrigerant system. But he better know, or learn how it works. And be able to know or at make an educated guess that it's low on charge. Or that a trap on a steam system appears to be clogged or not working. Etc. My philosophy on this is that if he doesn't understand what he's controlling, then HOW in the world is he so sure it's not HIS problem?

As regards someone else who made a comment that more and more controls are "canned". Sysint mentioned it, I think. <Shrug> Maybe. But I'm not seeing it that way. Granted, that most of the business we do is with larger buildings and systems. Most often, in our case, the customer (or his hired engineering/architectural firm)has very specific specs and sequences of operation. Virtually every single job is different. And the required sequence of operation does not lend itself to using ASCs. Except in the case of VAV's, small self contained units serving very specific and limited purpose, etc. But that could just be the rule for our area, and the customers we get. I really have no way of judging the broader world. He could very well be right in the overall, big picture. As I'm fairly sure he gets around more than I do, and probably sees a broader spectrum of installations than I do.

Other poster is quite correct about the owner operator thing. A heck of a lot of problems are caused by failure to maintain equipment in good operating condition. And by lack of operator training. Some in-house operator and maintenance people are VERY good. As good as anyone. But we get customers who seem to place little importance on the area. Pay their inhouse folks little, and don't seem to be inclined to pay what it takes to keep their equipment in good operating shape. Net result, any of their guys who is good at what he does, jumps ship. And the guys left behind often have minimal knowledge of how the equipment really works.

Which causes us no end of problems. Such customers seem to also think that if they hire us to slap on automation controls on everything, that'll fix ALL of their problems. And that they can continue to get by using the lowest paid and trainned help, doing little repair and maintenance to the actual equipment being controlled.

What we end up with, is a hell of lot of warranty service calls. Most of which end up being not the result of our stuff working incorrectly. Mostly it ends up being operator changed setting he shouldn't have, not understanding it. Or, "Hey, guy, yah know if you actually rplaced that worn and slipping belt, that air handler would work a lot better." Or "Hey, the damper motor is working find, but your linkage inside the unit is broken." Or, and my favorite "Hmmm, you do know that the computer controls DO NOT change filters for you, right?Now, take a look in here. See that? When the filter is so clogged that the fan sucks it right out of the frame and up against the coils, you just aren't gonna get a whole lot of air flow or use out of that coil."

Generally speaking, with the above type customers, when we bill em for a regular service call, because it really wasn't a warranty problem, they're the types that drag their feet about paying the bill and challenge every line item.

<Sigh> I keep telling the salesmen to drop some of these folks. As not being worthwhile customers. Unfortunately our salesmen don't always listen.

[eyepuff2]

Originally posted by hvacker
NormChris is right.What I see all the time is DDC techs that don't know systems and hvac techs that don't know ddc. The best ddc techs i've known were hvac techs first and often for quite awhile.

hvacker,

Could you e-mail me please? I have some questions about a Network 8000 system I'm working on.

c.roland@comcast.net

Thanks