did we forget about PNEUMATIC>>>

[nytech]

A control forum without a mention of Pneumatics, working in the northeast there is still a fair amount left out in the field. I have installed about 15 straight pneumatic systems in the past year(mainly due to the problems of ddc systems prior). no call backs...... I get my night setback/econimizer lockouts/ enthalpy control/s/w mixing boxes with min.position.....without the worry of a powerfalure or corrupt file. Its not that a "properly intalled ddc system that is maintained" isnt the way of the future but I think its overkill in some instance. Just wanted to give my 2 cents from and old pneumatic conrol guy :>

[lowtemp]

nothing wrong with pneumatics its just replacement parts are getting more expensive and harder to find. I just recently bought a honeywell transmitter and it was 400 bucks!

[acddc]

I have an account with 1 powers outdoor air transmitter, 2 pressure receiver controllers and 2 receiver controllers for hot water reset. These are early '60s vintage stainless steel parts with a gasket around the cover.

all these years if someone took the covers off they put them back on. They look brand new on inside i bilieve they are system 200.

had one fail around 13 to 14 months ago and replaced it with a traditional receiver controller (talk about interoperability).

next time i go to job i will take pic of these and post they are truely a work of art.

Allen

[joey791]

98% of our jobs have pneumatics on them, 2%ddc, thats why I like automated controls so much alot of headroom, not saying that the pneumatic systems havent done their job

[osiyo]

Originally posted by nytech
A control forum without a mention of Pneumatics, working in the northeast there is still a fair amount left out in the field. I have installed about 15 straight pneumatic systems in the past year(mainly due to the problems of ddc systems prior). no call backs...... I get my night setback/econimizer lockouts/ enthalpy control/s/w mixing boxes with min.position.....without the worry of a powerfalure or corrupt file. Its not that a "properly intalled ddc system that is maintained" isnt the way of the future but I think its overkill in some instance. Just wanted to give my 2 cents from and old pneumatic conrol guy :>

Chuckle, I wouldn't use that line about being an "old pneumatic control guy" too often. A LOT of us are old pneumatic control guys. And, in fact, a lot of those who pressed for and were in on the first uses of DDC, and who have been working the bugs out of using DDC in the field ... are old pneumatic controls guys.

DDC has been around for quite a few years. That is not to say it has worked worth a damn for all those years. But it's been around. Trust me, I have myself, and know others who have in the past expressed their opinions about electronic and digital controls of years past by breaking out the wire cutters and performing the not-so delicate surgery called a DDC-ectomy.

IMHO, for many years the use of DDC was pushed and promoted by a lot eggheads and computer geeks who thought they knew the better solutions. And the field saw a lot of stuff that was horrifically expensive and worked only sort-of, and required a staff of highly trainned specialists with a truck load of instruments to troubleshoot and adjust/repair.

But then, gradually, as more folks entered the field, and prices came down, and more and more "old pneumatics guys" with real world experience in controlling buildings and equipment got involved and started learning the new methods of controls. And started giving the eggheads and computer geeks real world feedback in what they were doing right, what they were doing wrong, explaining why this or that technique wasn't gonna work or wasn't adequate in some way, and so forth. THEN ... DDC started to take off and become something more useful. In the real world.

This is still going on. All the time we, I and others at the company for whom I work, write up technical feedback reports to the manufacturers of equipment we use telling em that this or that idea they have as to how something should work, sucks. And outline why it sucks, then offer explaination of how it should work to be more useable.

And the manufacturers do listen. The good ones do, anyway. Not to every ***** and gripe. If one listened to every ***** and gripe, you'd never have time to get anything done. And you'd have to be making major mods to software, firmware, and hardware at least weekly. Not good.

But routinely we see a manufacturer, after they've bench tested some precise scenario and conditions we've given em, testing first by using their previous control methodology, then by using our suggested fix, come out with a revision incorporating our idea. Or a solution of their own which accomplishes the change we suggested in another way. Or they come out with a change as a result of what somebody else gave em feedback on.

Sometimes we even get queried by the manufacturers first. We've gotten calls where a manufacturer's rep has said words to the effect, "Hey, in such and such an application using our Model XYZ controller, we are getting a lot of calls from the field saying it doesn't work right. But you guys say you're using it that way and not having problems. How are you doing it? What fixes, changes, settings etc are you using to get it done?"

It's a learning experience.

Not just a lot different than when I was in the Navy and they started doing getting serious about doing a fleet-wide conversion to pneumatic ABC controls. Automatic Boiler Combustion controls. And I found myself in a classroom studying the methodoligies and theories of Hagen and Bailey (the two major equipment suppliers the Navy was using)pneumatic controls. And found self trying to learn the formulas and math to figure out the proper adjustment for some danged thing they were calling a "ratio totalizer", in a given application. I can remember having to go to the base exchange and buying a bottle of 1000 aspirin tablets because my head hurt trying to learn what was, for me, totally new concepts.

But, I did learn. So did many others.

DDC is no different. Anyone who can learn to truly understand pneumatics, can learn DDC. It just might require some studying, time, and a big bottle of aspirin.
What needs to be done, what the mechanical equipment needs to do ... is the same. And you know that part. The only difference is how yah tell the equipment what to do.

Now, there isn't a durned thing wrong with pneumatics. Installed and adjusted properly, works fine and lasts a long time. Good stuff. Very reliable. And can be very accurate. And you can do a lot of ... most of ... the things with pneumatics that can be done with DDC.

But ....

Lets look at a few things.

Recently we did a retrofit of an existing building. 34 air handlers, couple hundred VAV's with reheat, peripheral and entryway radiation, assorted this and that. Was pneumatic controlled.

BTW, the in-house maintenance crew for building owner moaned when they found out we were installing DDC. Bunch of old hands, who'd worked there for some time, plus had worked at a number of other places. Here and there several had had their experiences with DDC, and weren't impressed.

As one guy, the maintenance sup, told me, "Why? Pneumatics works fine."

Uh huh.

Oh, it does. IF it's properly maintained and adjusted.

As he was to find out, it's not always properly maintained and adjusted. He started to find that out as my guys started giving me feedback on what they found as the ripped out the old and installed the new. Feedback I summed up in reports and fed back to him.

The total of all the problems we uncovered made for a rather thick report.

It was a full range of issues. VAV's whose dampers were not working and had not been working for a long time. VAV's whose reheat controls did not work and somebody had either completely shut manual valves. Or had set a permanent flow rate controlled by throttled manual valve. Outside air intakes ... that didn't do that. Exhaust fans that didn't exhaust. Ceiling mounted AHU, 25 foot up over a gym which had no drive belt. Another AHU which at some time in the past had been jury rigged with new motor, pulley and belt. Which, coupled with a VERY dirty and clogged face on the coil, was outputting only 1/4 of it's rated air flow. Numerous heating coils in reheats, unit heaters, radiation, and so forth which worked ... sorta ... but which were clogged and struggling to do their job.

So forth and so on.

The fellow was fairly amazed at the lenght of the list. Yep, he knew he had problems. Who doesn't? It's a sizeable building, with a lot of occupants. And like everyone, he doesn't have as many on his work crew as he'd like to have and thought he needed. They were always behind, with lots to do. But he'd not suspected to see a list that long.

Part of it is, sometimes folks just don't notice.

i.e. AHU with OA damper that didn't work. From machinery room you could see damper actuator move, connecting rods moved, etc. But inside the intake box connection was broken.

AHU with no belt? Motor and pulleys on opposite side from where filters were changed. Unit high in the overhead. Guy working on lift heard motor running. Hit disconnect. Lifted up, changed filters. Came down, turned unit on, heard motor, thought everything was fine. Occupants of area served at some time in the past, feeling stuffy, started up the habit of leaving doors flung open to other areas of building. That, coupled with the fact that an exhaust fan in their area had inoperable controls and remained permanently on 24/7 created enough cross flow that while they felt area wasn't right, it wasn't bad enough for them to complain.

Items where things "sorta worked" but needed repair? In many cases occupants of office or area made comments to me later. "Hey ... something is different. On cold days I've always had to wear a sweater in here. As it was just a little cool." Or, "Geez, it was always hot in here on winter days when they had the boilers running, but I thought it was supposed to be that way." Or as one gal commented, as she raised nose and sniffed air, "What did you guys do? It was always a bit stuffy and stale in here and you could smell it if somebody hadn't changed their socks in a few days. The air is definitely fresher now." And so forth.

Some items on the list I gave him were discovered in the conversion. Others were discovered during our shake-down, testing and commissioning phase. As we sat at front end and could SEE valve opening in a reheat, and SEE that discharge temp either did not increase, or increased painfully slowly and not enough. Or we saw damper ordered open but reading air flow measuring station we saw that we were not bringing in nearly the expected amount of fresh air. Or saw that supply fan was not moving rated CFM. Or etc, etc, etc.

This was one of those mixed refits. Where in some cases we replaced pneumatic actuators and in others still used them. Replaced major valves but kept a lot of the existing smaller ones, etc. So in many cases, problems not noticed til we fired everything up. But now, as we did have sensors hooked up everywhere and DDC system could SEE actual air flow, detect real water flow, temp increase or temp decrease, measure amps in a motor, and so forth. We started to find a LOT of issues.

The thing is, pneumatics work fine. BUT ...

That buildings maintenance supervisor simply didn't have the staff to be able to routinely test and check everything. They always had their hands full just keeping up with service demands. Takes a long time to go room to room and check real temp against what controls think it is. To manually read temp rise across a coil to see if reheat is working right. To open box and crawl inside and check dampers to that when yah THINK you've got 30%, you KNOW you've got 30%. Etc.

That's one of the major issues with pneumatics. Having positive feedback and accurate data. Without having to resort to a lot of manpower intensive, time intensive running around with hand instruments and testing control after control. In a building that might have hundreds, maybe thousands, of controls. In many cases yah have to wait for something to go so drastically wrong that space occupants get really pissed and complain.

That building maintenace supervisor was a Doubting Thomas. Nowadays, he's a fan of the new system. Recently I dropped by to check on the installation. And he was a happy man. He comes in early on purpose and sits at his headend screen and checks stuff out. Often noting problems before occupants arrive. And regularly having problem fixed before they get there. Or, if not fixed, he greets em, tells em of problem, says he has it under control, new part on the way. Please be patient. Couple hours and everything will work right. This pleases occupants. Happy occupants means happier building maintenance supervisor.

His guys are also spending a whole lot less time troubleshooting what a problem is caused by. Low room temp? Can see if discharge temp of VAV is rising when valve opens, can see if VAV has air flow, can see if HW converter is putting out rated temp, can see if pump is running, what pressure it's producing, etc. In a minute or two. Old way, would take em longer than that just to walk to cold room and lay hand on reheat coil to see if it's warming up. Since they spend less time troubleshooting, they have more time to be fixing, and more time to answer calls for a cleanup because somebody just spilled something or barfed in a hallway.

BTW, his building is now using significantly less energy to maintain temps than it used to. And he's really, really impressed with the special dehumidification subroutine we put in that helps clear building of excess humidity on those difficult days. In certain kinds of weather, excess interior humidity was causing him fits. Not just occupant complaints but damage to building, fixtures and furnishings.

Side benefit to us? <G> When I overwhelmed him with a list his guys could not possibly manage to clear up of discrepencies, he got building owner to foot the bill for a couple of our service guys to show up and lend a hand.

Recently he did tell me there is one feature he's not too fond of. That's when his text message pager went off at oh-dark-thirty in the morning. And he found out it was his building calling him and telling him, "Help !!! Come fix me. Air handler #26 won't start and room NN is too cold." He appreciated fact that he was able to go in and replace a fuse before any major damage occurred. But, OTOH, he wasn't too happy to have to get up at that hour and go crawl into his truck at 15 below, on a weekend. Back in the "old days" when he had only pneumatics, he'd have had his hands full Monday morning. But he'd have gotten a nice nights sleep and not have had to get woke up by a "damned computer".

[Control Man]

Still lots of Pneumatics around , I have 1 site that will be 50 years old next year and still has over 90% of the original PNEUMATICS in place.

[fastfred]

did we forget about PNEUMATIC

Worked for Honeywell for 30+ years,26 years pnuematic I loved the air controls, however, I came to realize the breadth of the DDC controls was superior to the pnuematic.
Having said that, I was quick to point out the fact that I
saw my first RP908 controller in 1964 and in the time that followed, one new controller was introduced,the RP920.
And I also was quick to point out that over that same time there were so many elec/electronic controllers introduced that some models did not even make into the next catalog.
One of my last accounts, a school that was biult in 1945
had uni-vents with original damper actuators. Diaphragms
(metaphragm)were brass segments with soldered edges. These actuators still functionng. Perhaps the case could be made, that they lasted too long! it is hard to sell new, when the old wont die.
Also, I liked the NON SPARKING aspect,if you crossed lines.
Pnuematics do not suck they blow- and with some maintenance they keep on working.

[es555]

nytech,

What do use use pneumatically to sense enthalpy? The only thing I have seen for that is an old Honeywell receiver controller.

Pneumatic control systems can be good but they quickly get too complicated when people want them to perform the sequences that ddc systems perform. Simple control systems are much more reliable than complicated ones.

[flange]

ok here goes.......we have this job to calibrate old Moore pneumatic controls. these are located in labs that utilize jet fuel for some process. according to the manufacturer, trying to calibrate these controls is like hunting for dinosaurs. problem is there isnt anything else reliable enough to follow up these oldies but goodies. set up correctly, they are accurate to plus or minus 1/2 degree. takes about a day to get 'em that way though.

[osiyo]

Originally posted by es555
nytech,

What do use use pneumatically to sense enthalpy? The only thing I have seen for that is an old Honeywell receiver controller.

Pneumatic control systems can be good but they quickly get too complicated when people want them to perform the sequences that ddc systems perform. Simple control systems are much more reliable than complicated ones.

Yep. Tho, in some cases that's precisely a strenght of pneumatic systems. If your requirements aren't complicated, pneumatics serve well. Granted that your system is large enough to justify the energy expense of operating a controls air compressor.

OTOH, DDC systems can offer their own version of simplicity. As in one job we did. 18 floor office building. A retrofit. 20 to 36 VAVs per floor, varied according to floor and office arrangement. Occupied areas.

We had a tech preprogram each VAV controller in the shop. Giving each it's respective heating and cooling setpoints, min and max flow requirements, adjusting PID loop for heating valve control, and populating it's schedule of operation according to customer desires, complete with setback and setup values (the two not being the same number), etc. This just entailed his making a master copy of the desired setup, and then he stuffed a copy into each one. Just required a click of a mouse. Then a few keystrokes to enter, for each, it's own individual min and max airflow and it's "k" adjustment factor so it could convert velocity to a CFM reading. If he had a complaint, it was that it was very boring work. Took him only a few minutes per unit.

Benefit was that the controllers were then delivered to the site. And as our installers installed each and wired and applied power, VAV controller came awake and went about doing it's job immediately.

Comfort level of the occupants wasn't significantly affected as we progressed thru the job. We'd put some wire pullers to work on the night shift so for a floor all wires would already be pulled and in place. Then during the day, a couple guys would move along, working quietly. Strip out old controls, mount new and terminate. Immediately new controls in working order and doing their thing. Move on to next unit. About the only occupant disturbance being that occassionally one of my guys had to ask someone to scoot chair to side a foot or two. Or ask person to maybe take a 20 minute coffee break. Then come back and he'd be done.

In the meantime, another guy was at front end watching. As each VAV controller came on line he'd see it. Would be talking to installer over radio quietly. Verified what he was seeing was the controller he thought it was, right office space, etc. Then as installers moved on, head end guy put VAV controller thru it's paces. Simulating high space temp, low space temp, etc. Watching and verifying controller adjusted air flow, opened and closed reheat, duct temp increased when reheat opened, and so on.

Nice, simple job. Each floor had it's own AHU. Which were all essentially identical, operation-wise. Enough so that a common program served all, needing only a few tweaks to account for differences in CFM capacity and so forth. For each we had wire pullers do their thing first getting everything in place. Wires, conduit, and sensors. Then, we'd have adequate guys on hand. Shut unit down and zip ... zip. Everyone knew what to do. Pull old damper actuators, install new. Terminate those. DDC controllers already mounted and terminated, and pre-programmed. Cut in power to controllers, and to AHU and she was off and running. Total downtime, about 4 hours. Max. Several times wasn't even that long. We did this at night, after even late working occupants had left. This left us lots of time to test and correct any problems. Minimum disturbance of occupants, which made the property owner happy. Fast and easy, manpower wise, which made us happy.

Preprogramming, being able to have everything set up and ready to go, ahead of time. Is a very handy thing. And being able to duplicate very precise settings and adjustments on multiple controllers with the click of a mouse button is also handy. Makes things nice and simple, for the actual installation phase of things.

Of course, things are not always that simple.

ie Recent job. Multi-air handler building. (22) Heat and cool coils. Economizer, with spec to have enthalpy of OA compared to enthalpy of RA, and have system decide whether or not to use regular economizer mode, OA thru energy recovery unit, or no OA at all except minimum required. Add requirement for minimum OA, to be reset by RA CO2 content. Specific requirements for a dehumidification mode. A minimum of 4 schedules that could be pre-programmed. 4 SEPARATE, individual schedules for each air handler. PLUS, ability to send master command to occupied or unoccupied mode from central location to override all individual schedules. Add requirement for manual override, to extend occupany mode, via pushbutton. One located in each zone served by each air handler. Add a requirement that each air handler was to monitor every room it served, and to go online if any 3 rooms went above or below a certain setback/setup value. Or to go online if any ONE room went above or below yet another pair of values. Constant pressure units, with VAV's. It also monitored bulding pressure in it's zone and modulated a relief damper and relief fan to control that. And just to make things interesting, design engineer specifed that if more than a certain number of rooms in each zone served by an air handler went occupied early, or stayed occupied late, as determined by occupancy sensors located in each room, the air handler was to override normal schdules and go occupied early or stay occupied later. And minimum outside air was NOT a fixed number. It was a calculated value. Determined by DDC controller based upon how many rooms indicated they were occupied. With different minimum OA CFM requirement for each room.

Now, I'm supposing somebody could do all that with pneumatics. But I'm also betting it'd be one heck of a complicated system. And would take bloody well forever to keep calibrated and adjusted, or to troubleshoot.

<G> No, I'm definitely not against pneumatics. Like em. Cut my eye teeth on em.

But the fact is, customer and design engineer requirements are getting more demanding and complicated. They're expecting a lot more. Both comfort AND save energy at the same time. Plus convenience. They don't wanta have to adjust a control anymore. Want the machinery to adjust itself. And want it to predict their needs and requirements. ie The above specification and requirement where machinery watches to see how many folks are coming in early to work, or are staying late.

Doing these sorts of things becomes tremendously complicated using mechanical control methods. With DDC, the physical work of pulling wires, mounting controllers, installing sensors and actuators is pretty much the same, whether the sequence of operation is simple or very complicated. And that part isn't exactly rocket science. Pretty basic stuff. The difference between simple and complicated is mostly a matter of programming.

And making changes is mostly just a matter of programming. ie The other night I was at a customer's building on other business. And building maintenance supervisor complained about an issue. No big deal to fix. Actually, nothing was broken. Just a control loop that wasn't responsive enough to suit a particularly fussy and *****y occupant. I hopped on computer and redid a PID loop (just PI, actually) and adjusted a reset value. Took less than 60 seconds. Never had to break out a screwdriver or a gage, nor walk to where the controls were. That gets durned hard to do with pneumatics. <G>

In fact, one issue we have to deal with is customers wanting "freebies". As in the above case. Customer could have made change himself. IF, he spent the time and effort to learn how. Heck, we gave him copies of every manual, all of them. Has all the info in them he needs to learn. Very, very few of our customers want to learn what it takes, tho. Probably makes their heads hurt as much as mine did when I was learning. But they soon figure out that all I, or one of my techs has got to do is a little bit of typing and we can make minor or major changes to how things operate. And we don't even have to go to the site in most cases. For most of our customers, I can do a dial in and get on their system. Which brings up a problem. Customers keep asking us to make tweaks, adjustments and changes.

I'm liberal about it til they've signed the check. Then I give em 60 days during which I'm not gonna argue if it's something I or one of the guys can do in a few minutes. But after that, I've found you've got to play a little hardball. And I remind em that we set system up according to their specs and satisfaction, and they agreed ... after all, signed the check. Now, Mr or Mrs Customer, phone calls for my advice or to have me (or one of my guys) make an adjustment or change, is gonna cost you. And I don't bill by the minute. So it makes no difference if it only takes me 5 or 10 minutes. You get billed for an hour.

<G> That works to keep them from nickel and diming you to death. They make a list and wait til it's long enough to be worthwhile, an honest hour or two worth of work before they call again.

Just some thoughts on the subject.

[Control Man]

Pneumatic Control with Pneumatic Actuators = Kinda slow but powerful

DDC with Electronic Actuators = FAST but slow operation

DDC with PNEUMATIC Actuators = Fast

At least with PNEUMATICS you can JIMMY RIG a valve or damper open , closed , 1/2 way with main air and a mini regulator kind of hard to jimmy rig 12MA's

[fms2k]

Here's "2 cents worth" from another old "pneumatics" guy who still works on that junk and teaches pneumatic controls seminars. You'd be surprised how many people still show up to learn basic pneumatic controls and at how many people who claim they do really don't. Still have 40 year old Powers "D" stats out in some of the schools I'm in and you can't kill 'em no matter how hard people try. Oil, water, dirt - nothing stops them. Like to see a microprocessor based controller, a.k.a. "DDC", survive even half that time in service under adverse conditions. Not likely. Pneumatic controls were the first truly "interoperable" control systems. Air is air. You could always make a Honeywell receiver controller work with Johnson temperature transmitters and a Powers valve - no BACnet or LonWorks needed here! We always had "analog" outputs available - pneumatic controls are inherently modulating and also inherently explosion proof. How much does it cost you to do an explosion proof application with DDC - $$$$$$$$$. In the way back when days "digital" controllers didn't even have analog outputs. How many of you even remember the old Butler/PTI, Paragon and Solidyne "Energy Mangement Systems" or "load controllers", just to name a few. All those controllers did was turn "loads" on and off and function as time clocks. Just goes to show you how far the market has really come.

I love the old stuff, love to see it working the way it should, love to teach people how to make it work and keep working. But I also love the new - we work with several DDC product offerings and the stuff never ceases to amaze me. We all know what really drives DDC today - the networking and communication aspects of the products. Be in Hong Kong, get on the internet, check on your building in downtown Des Moines. How can you not be impressed by that.

Onward and upward with the new but at least raise your glass one last time in tribute to "old man pneumatics".

[DeltaT]

I'm probably the only one in my area that removes DDC's and replace or re-install pnuematic controls so the customer can have value, control and longevitity.

Don't have time to get into this but whoever previously compared lack of maintainance on pneumatic to where DDC controls need no maintenance is so full of themselves it's sick.

I can take you to plants with faily new DDC controls that have not worked since the day they were installed. I can take you to buildings that are over 40 years old and still have the original pneumatic controls working just as well as they did when they were installed.

Electronics are great controls. I know. I was there when we first started designing and selling them. What went wrong is when the electronic mindset got into our business. 99.5% of the DDC control people I get out of trouble or know know nothing or close to nothing about our trade.

They sell, make promises they can't keep, tell things they can't perform on, make the customer a slave of their built in crap and then, when all else fails - cause the systems are problem prone, sell the same customer, successfully, another new DDC system. Amazing.

[osiyo]

Originally posted by DeltaT
Don't have time to get into this but whoever previously compared lack of maintainance on pneumatic to where DDC controls need no maintenance is so full of themselves it's sick.

Hmmm. Did someone claim DDC controls did not require maintenance? I must've missed that post.


Originally posted by DeltaT
I can take you to plants with faily new DDC controls that have not worked since the day they were installed. I can take you to buildings that are over 40 years old and still have the original pneumatic controls working just as well as they did when they were installed.

Chuckle. Very true, I've seen numerous buildings that're over 40 years old with still working pneumatics. I won't say that they're working as well as they were when they were first installed. But, they're still working well enough.

And, DeltaT, I could take you to several buildings that're less than 8 years old. Which were built using pneumatic controls. Which have had the pneumatic controls completely reworked and redone 2 to 3 times; and in one case completely ripped out and replaced with new pneumatics ... where the pneumatics have NEVER worked correctly. I know about those buildings, 3 of which are in this state, and one in the next state over, as we were finally hired in a last desparate attempt by the owners to get a control system which worked correctly. We offered to do the controls in pneumatics, or in DDC. Their pick. However, in either case, we wouldn't do it and offer any warranty or guarantee unless we ripped the whole existing mess out and started over again. As it turned out, they opted for DDC.

And liked the results ... a LOT.

But, as I pointed out to them. Their real problem had not been the original choice to go pneumatics. Their real problem had been hiring the cheapest SOB's they could find to install em. Then doing the same when it came time to hire someone to try to fix the mistakes of the first contractors.

I'll not argue about the rest of your point. Except to say that I think the 99.5% is a bit high.

However, certainly there are quite a few, too many, in the DDC installation biz who lack a lot of knowledge about HVAC systems. Other than what they might have learned in an introductory course, or from reading Honeywell's Gray manual. Which is a good reference, but hardly comprehensive as concerns all one needs to know.

And there are more than just a couple folks who call themselves HVAC techs, who could use a bit more education in that field, themselves.

[DeltaT]

"Now, I'm supposing somebody could do all that with pneumatics. But I'm also betting it'd be one heck of a complicated system. And would take bloody well forever to keep calibrated and adjusted, or to troubleshoot."

Osiyo
That sure sounds like you are saying that pnuematic controls will "And would take bloody well forever to keep calibrated and adjusted, or to troubleshoot" to me.

Not so. Never has been. Bunch of guys on here have already said they have systems 30 plus years running like almost new without much calibration, adjustments or trouble shooting. I am one of them.

And yes, there are many pneumatic building that have unskilled personal that take care of them including using coat hangers on the dampers. I know, I have re-done, rebuilt many myself.

But those same personnel are going to do the same with any type of control system including DDC. I also run into that and so do a lot of people on this board.

One of the "benefits" that I see most DDC people say is that the DDC system will take care of itself. And that they just set there for years and work trouble free. Baloney.

I have a college campus were the people in charge of the central system have replaced the sensors with fixed resistors so everything always looks normal. But the managers who watch over this system don't know this. They think the central campus system is great. And they print out all reports each month on how much energy they save. It's a long story but the campus electronics guys who are in charge of running this sytem found it easier to installed fixed resistor in place of finding ther problems because of the constant problems.

Another large campus electronic firm had all the old pneumatics removed and had DDC controls installed because they are the "save all" of controls. Well, long story again, anyway they had tremendous problems controlling temperatures where the employess called the local Labor & Industries board. Short end to this was the maintenance crew never changed the filters or belts so the main AH system had no air flow and the chiller was shuttiing down on barrel freeze protection. Why? -- because they have a DDC control system which was suppose to take care of all the problems as it was sold to them. This is what the maintenance supervisor told me as I was standing in front of his central system. They quit doing all maintenance because, as he said, they now have a modern control system which will take care of everything. No kiddin.

These two examples are not isolated incidents but an almost weekly event in my business.

And in my experience the 99.5% figure is accurate. If trained HVAC people could take control of anytype of control systems all of us would be better.

I don't mind if one states you can do more with DDC controls systems - because you can. But when this ugly sales and know it all attitude shows up about DDC systems are the only way to go and bla, bla, bla then it's an untruth to our whole industry. Keep the electronic guys behind the bench and only let skilled HVAC people design, install and sell these systems, pneumatic or otherwise. But it will never happend. That's why I am so busy.

[NormChris]

This is a great thread guys! Very informative for me. Thanks.

Norm

[osiyo]

Originally posted by DeltaT
"Now, I'm supposing somebody could do all that with pneumatics. But I'm also betting it'd be one heck of a complicated system. And would take bloody well forever to keep calibrated and adjusted, or to troubleshoot."

Osiyo
That sure sounds like you are saying that pnuematic controls will "And would take bloody well forever to keep calibrated and adjusted, or to troubleshoot" to me.

And they do, in very large installations, DeltaT. Which are the bulk of the systems I deal with.

I am an electronics guy, AND a mechanical guy, DeltaT. Have been on both sides of the house.

The very reason I made my comment that I have seen very old pneumatic controls installations, which still worked fine. But stipulated that I wouldn't say they worked just like when new. Because they didn't. Possibly one would find such well tuned up and adjusted systems in any commercial electrical power generating plants that might still use pneumatics (I don't know of any such), and quite possible, even likely, one would find well tuned and maintained pneumatic systems in manufacturing plants. In both cases, the type of installation where the owner/operators would pay what it takes to keep everything working well and properly adjusted. I have seen a couple such examples. ie On the ships upon which I served until I retired from the Navy in 1991. The ones still using extensive pneumatics. And, as a civilian, one of our large commercial customers is a medical devices manufacturer, with multiple facilities. Some of which are still using pneumatics. As I stated before, in each eample I'm giving, the owners spent what it took to have folks onhand to routinely, actually, really ... no **** ... go and measure, test, and adjust or repair as necessary to keep things operating right. And doing so kept a man or more pretty busy. Near full time.

I will stress, I'm referring to BIG friggin installation.

However, to get back to reality, and the norm representing most installations. Most property owners don't take care of their property and equipment so well. It's more normal for me to find exactly the sorts of things I've mentioned in the posts I've made. ie A recent customer. Building was in fair to middling shape. A sizeable building. 34 air handlers. Of assorted types. Some dedicated to single large spaces. Some zoned with hot decks and cold decks. Some feeding constant volume boxes with reheats, and they even had a few VAVs with reheats tossed in. No big problems or issues ... that they were aware of. Hired us to retrofit DDC controls as a matter of trying to modernize and maybe save some energy.

Their in-house maintenance guys had done best job they could. But the reality was, and is, just like what most face ... they didn't have adequate personnel to actually troubleshoot, test, and fix like they would have liked to have done. So a lot of things went unnoticed. And they concentrated on fixing those things occupants actually complained actively about.

Hell, DeltaT, even the building maintenance supervisor told me that he knew that sometimes they kinda took shortcuts. And that in some cases, well, if it worked well enough, that was good enough. Even if it wasn't right and as it should be. Like anyone else, he and his department only had so many people, so much budget money. And very unlikely owner was gonna give him more help on his crew.

Chuckle, but he sure was surprised at just how many existing discrepencies and problems we uncovered. Some, no one knew about. ie inoperable OA dampers. An AHU putting out less than 1/4th rated capacity. Etc. Some, occuplants had noted, but as issue wasn't severe or unbearable, they just sort of gotten used to living with. More than once, an occupant told me he or she thought local system was "supposed" to work like the way it did.

Now, I am, as I've said before, an old pneumatics guy. Could have myself, personally, fixed up the pneumatics in that building so that they worked correctly. If I'd had the time, and the money. But if I were in that maintenance supervisor's place, I'd have had to operate under the same constraints he had to deal with. Only so many workers, just so much time, and only so much budget money. And he had a LOT of others things he had to do in a day. HVAC systems were just part of his responsibilities. He also had to address calls for not working electrical systems, plumbing leaks, somebody's key broke in a door lock, somebody sucked down one too many adult beverages the night before and left the inevitable results splattered all over a bathroom, so forth and endlessly on.

Guy knew what he SHOULD be doing as concerns HVAC controls, to have em fine tuned and working right. But didn't have the time. Especially given the amount of time it takes to REALLY examine a system and control, and tweak it the way it should be. As versus just "making it work".

As stated, I've DONE both. I know exactly what the heck it takes to do DDC controls, or to do pneumatics. And I durned well know about testing and troubleshooting, calibration and adjustments, and know how long that stuff takes.

So I wasn't the least bit surprised when in the end, after said building maintenance supervisor got to see, and get used to his new system and it's front end. That he got real enthusiastic and excited when it dawned on him that SEE the various components working. See command, and results of command. See valve open and pipe or duct heat up or cool down. Eyes lit up.

I KNOW what he was thinking even before he said it. He was thinking about all the friggin walking time, draggin around of ladders, lifitng ceiling tiles, sticking thermometers in test hole after yah drilled one, breaking line and adding hand gage, etc and all the time all that stuff took. Just so yah could ID where the problem was.

Hell, I didn't even have to prompt him. I know some guys in these forums don't think much of building maintenance people. But this guy is no idiot. He was looking at some rooms and saw low space temps. Looked at reheats and saw they were trying to heat, valves open, duct temps had increased, but not as much as they should. Without word one from me he knew, switched to screen where he could see discharge temp from associated air handler. AH HAAAA ... he grunts. "That's too low, why?" he calls up set points, looks at valve and damper positions.

Now, electronic PID loops are new to him, as are some of the types of resets we use. So he did quiz me on those. Asking for an explaination. So I explained. Plus showed him an add on screen we installed which he could call up. We've BTDT before with customers. So we add a button that can be clicked and they can call up a graphic screen which does an on-screen graphic plot. Standard x-y coordinate thing. This variable is X, that one is Y, throw in values and it'll draw the graph and you can SEE what the calculated results will be for any given X-Y values. They like that. Little light bulb goes off in heads. "Ohhh, okay, I can see it now."

We went thru that. And I showed him all was good. But discharge still too low. Reason? Part of contract was that some new things had been added. One such was some Heat Recovery Units. He'd not clicked on screen to show the one now attached to his air handler. I showed him. And showed him where he could see that ERU wasn't working right. Wasn't picking up heat from exhausted air and returning it to OA intake. Could be seen clear as day when I showed him the screen. He'd seen little buttom marked "ERU" but hadn't thought to click on it.

Chuckle, designer of his new system only called for part of total air stream to be run thru ERU. Enough to ensure minimium OA requirements despite very low OA temps. AHU screen proper only showed MAT at point that would NOT give picture of air temp at injection point of that ERU connection. That was my guys' fault. Since corrected. One had to look at ERU screen, before I changed the screen layouts, to see that ERU was injecting some really friggin COLD air into AHU. Colder than heat coil of AHU was meant to deal with. Thus the very low discharge. Which was lower than reheats in rooms could deal with.

Anyway, point was guy was just impressed as hell that he could troubleshoot in mere moments. At least pinpoint problem enough so he knew where to go and look. As versus spending a couple hours running here and there, attaching hand held instruments, determining, "No, this part is working fine. Problem must be elsewhere." And all the while draggin around ladder, tool bag, and having to deal with occupants stopping him and asking "What the hell is wrong?" and him having to tell em that he didn't have a clue yet. But was working on it.

DeltaT, I know you know as well as I do that in HVAC work, and many other types of work, one often spends a hour, 2 hours, sometimes several hours just finding a problem which only takes 15 minutes to fix. That's what this fellow was excited about.

That it was a fancy "electronic" system, he didn't give a rip about. Oh, there are some other things in his new system he likes. But what he likes best is that for the first time he really can see the "Big Picture" of what's going on in his building. And can see that he and his guys can save a lot of "chasing around finding the problem" time.

FWIW, he's already told me has has little to no interest in learning the insides of DDC systems. Has enough on his plate already. But I did spend time with him showing him how to do some basic troubleshooting so he can determine if the controller is working or not. Or if it's something else. Plus I showed him a few tricks of the trade. ie How to operate HOA switches on controllers. ie He just needs to look at neatly printed, laminated points sheet we attach to inside of door of every box containing one of our controllers. Which lists what's connected to what. In PLAIN ENGLISH. ie BO1 has descriptive line saying "AHU 21 Supply Fan Start/Stop". He has a master copy of every controller points list in his office, plus the laminated copy placed in every cabinet we install.

I also showed him how to disengage clutch of small Belimo valve motors or damper actuators,to manually position. For larger ones showed him how to use little manual cranking wrench. Also showed him how, if it's necessary, to tap this wire to ground to move a tri-state motor this way, this other one to move it that way. And so forth and so on. So he's not totally helpless. Knows how to make do until something can be fixed.


"Not so. Never has been. Bunch of guys on here have already said they have systems 30 plus years running like almost new without much calibration, adjustments or trouble shooting. I am one of them."

I'll take your word for it. Haven't been in your shoes so could hardly say you're wrong. But I have not. I have seen systems that old that are still working ...okay, tho. Could be I'm just more nitpicky that other folks.


And yes, there are many pneumatic building that have unskilled personal that take care of them including using coat hangers on the dampers. I know, I have re-done, rebuilt many myself.

Uh huh. And there service personnnel called in as contractors who aren't just a lot better.

And there are very good people in-house, and as contractors, too.

The point I was trying to make.

A hack is a hack, whether he's installing pneumatic controls or DDC.

Also, all of us, pneumatic AND DDC, can use a bit more learning and education in our fields than we probably have. Even those with lots of experience can also use a little brushup and refresher from time to time. Geez, if I could remember all the stuff I've forgotten over the years, I'd be positively brilliant.

But ... I'm not ... so I must've forgotten a lot. <G>

[osiyo]

Originally posted by NormChris


This is a great thread guys! Very informative for me. Thanks.

Norm

Heck, most all of the threads are informative to me, Norm. I have come to a conclusion. That the more I know, the more I realize just how much I don't know. A couple years ago I had an opportunity to sit in a class, at company expense. They'd hired a fellow who teaches at one of the local private tech schools. A well respected one, locally, at least. And were having him come to our building to give his classes. A series of em. 4 hrs per night, one night per week, for 6 weeks.

Pretty basic class, an introduction to controls theory as applied to HVAC equipment. Neither a pneumatics nor DDC specific course. General theory, that applied to whatever sort of controls. P, PI, and PID. Etc.

Students were to be company employees, and they ran the gamit. Everything from young apprentice pipefitter, to managers and salesmen, and even a few engineers. As you probably know, just because someone can wave a sheepskin in front of your face, it doesn't mean he or she has a good grasp of everything he or she might need to know. And we'd found some of our sales people, project managers, and some of the engineers could use a little brush up on their knowledge of control theory.

Anyway, I heard about it. Wasn't one of the ones originally scheduled to attend. When I inquired of the back office as to why not, my boss just looked at me and said "Oh hell, what's this guy gonna teach you? You do this stuff for a living."

Uh huh, sure. The instructor was an old Honeywell engineer, retired from Honeywell. Had worked his way up from a field tech to an engineering position. Now doing this teaching gig.

I told my boss that I'd not yet EVER found anyone willing to try to teach me something, from whom I'd not been able to learn something new. Or from whom I'd been able to relearn something long forgotten. I wanted a seat in the class.

I was right. I learned a few new things.

Of course, for me, that's easier than with some. There is SOOOO much I still don't know.

[DeltaT]

Two things irritate me about what you are saying/inferring:
1) Pneumatic controls take a lot of maintenance.
2) DDC controls will not take a lot, if any, maintenance.
3) Once DDC controls are installed there is very little need for skilled, trained HVAC/controls personel to be on board.
4) Large building with pneumatic controls have more problems/requirements for maintenance/repair/complications.

OK, I can't count.

The reason most HVAC systems, including any type of control systems, is defunk when you get there is the lack of the williness of owners/managers to provide & investment in skilled personel [which you already mention to your credit] AND/OR the plain lack of skilled personnel - period.

This is a nationwide industry crisis and will remain that way, in part but not the total fault of DDC controls and the like, because these very systems are marketed as a plug & play installation where skilled craftsman are not needed once installed. Hecht, it doesn't even take skilled craftsman to install the stuff already. That's exactly what you have been selling as a selling point to your customers.

The lack of skilled personnel and the demise of those controls is also true of DDC systems now in place in those very buildings where the [whatever] controls were removed and replaced with DDC. I can tell you story upon story of my trobleshooting of all types of DDC systems over the past years all due to installation/design/product and/or maintenance failures. AND in many of the DDC controls an added, never seen before nusiance shows up in erratic operations with, ironically, any self testing procedures, most of the time if not always, proving that there is nothing wrong when, in fact, the customer is steaming mad cause he knows his systems are not working correctly otherwise he would not have called (you) them.

As for the size of building and control systems and complications I disagree again. Granted there are more controls and, maybe, more sequencies of operation. But once basic control theory is understood along with basis HVAC training any pneumatic/electric/electronic control system is very easy to understand and work on.

We can compare sizes of building that you have worked on and that I have and I bet I will come out ahead.

One of my points is, DDC control systems have been and will undergo the same problems that [blank] control systems have experienced, which is lack of knowledge/design/installation, etc. etc..

Most DDC control systems are being sold not to solve a problem or to improve control, but to benefit the builder of those DDC control systems.

Want some proof of that? Go ask just about any DDC control system maker for info/copies/parts/components on their software, hardware or over the counter parts availability.

[osiyo]

Originally posted by DeltaT
Two things irritate me about what you are saying/inferring:
1) Pneumatic controls take a lot of maintenance.
2) DDC controls will not take a lot, if any, maintenance.
3) Once DDC controls are installed there is very little need for skilled, trained HVAC/controls personel to be on board.
4) Large building with pneumatic controls have more problems/requirements for maintenance/repair/complications.

OK, I can't count.


LOL. No problem. I have difficulty doing higher math if I have my shoes on.

1) Pneumatic controls take -ADEQUATE- maintenance, repair and adjustment if you want to ensure they work RIGHT. As versus just work. Unless you've actually gone to the controls, thrown on calibrated and known good instruments, you don't know that they're working as correctly as they should, and could. But, as I alluded to before, it could be that I'm just more nitpicky than some. Probably comes from years of being a Navy snipe. Where, if spec said danged thing was supposed to be operating at such and such a spec, =/- 2%. I wanted to make sure danged thing worked at said spec within +/- 2%. And I'd be checking with certified calibrated instruments. And not just because regs said so. Because the durned equipment worked better, lasted longer if it was tuned right. I was a lazy Snipe. Liked to drink my coffee with feet kicked up on my desk and tell tall sea stories. As versus fixing damned machine again and again. It was my pride and joy the first time we completed a 9 month cruise and none of my equipment, and I had more per man than any other shop on the ship, had a single hour's worth of unplanned down time. To me, being bored to death meant yah were doing your job right. <G>

2) Precisely where have I ever said DDC equipment requires little or no maintenance? If you took anything I said to mean that, I'm afraid you're mistaken. Now in past posts I have said that we have DDC systems installed for 10 or more years which are still working, and working well. But that's not the same as saying they require little or no maintenance. However, a decent system, well designed and installed, using equipment from a decent manufacturer requires no more maintenance than most anything else. <Shrug> Things fail. Even new ones. FWIW, the guys in our service department tell me that most of their automation/DDC work involves correcting operator errors, and/or fixing the usual stuff. Valve or damper motor went bad (not frequent as we use exclusively Belimo stuff or off the shelf pneumatic actuators), a linkage broke, somebody cut a wire while doing some other work, etc. There is an occassional controller replacement. But after the warranty period this is actually rare, for us. Typically durned thing will roll over and play dead cockroach in the first days or weeks if it's got a factory fault. Heck, I got a small collection of old controllers, various makes and models, that worked well for over a decade. And were removed only because building owner decided to automate whole building. ie An old controller that only controlled one or two AHUs, and was obsolete. So not suitable for use in whole building conversion. Chuckle, just got a whole Network 8000 system that way. Gave it to one of the pipefitters who is one of my techs. He was thinking about putting it in his house and putting it back to work. Reasonable enough as my own home has an "old" system at work in it. Long obsolete, but it's still working like a charm.

3) If anyone claimed a sizeable building with DDC did not require someone on hand who was skilled and trainned in HVAC, said person is a fool. The equipment itself is still the same damned equipment. Fans, valves, dampers, heat exchangers, contactors and relays, pumps, and so forth. That the controls are DDC does not change ANYTHING as concerns the needed and necessary care and feeding of the equipment being controlled. It can make troubleshooting somewhat easier. But the operator needs to know enough to interpret the data he's seeing. And he needs to actually know how to fix the mechanical and electrical equipment being controlled. DDC systems can NOT think. Not really. If anyone thinks so, they evidently are greatly misinformed themselves. DDC controllers and computers are dumber than rocks. Compared to a human.

4) Large buildings with lots of equipement, and ANY sort of controls require a lot of care and feeding. DDC systems, properly installed and running, can simply make that care and feeding a little faster and more efficient, as it can present the many bits of info in one place. As versus, for example, some guy having to try to hot foot it thru an 18 story office building first thing in the morning to physically go see if everything is okay. Or wait for a catastrophic failure with resultant occupant complaint. Now in some large manufacturing complexes, that use pneumatics, they do bring back lines to a central control station so operator can overall status of plant remotely. But this is rarely if ever done at ordinary stores, office buildings, etc. It means pulling a hell of a lot of bundles of tubing back to the central control room. And takes up a bunch of wall space for the display gages.

Those are the things I've said, DeltaT.

Kindly don't put things in my mouth I've never said.


The reason most HVAC systems, including any type of control systems, is defunk when you get there is the lack of the williness of owners/managers to provide & investment in skilled personel.

BINGO !!!! Absolutely correct. It's isn't the kind of control system, it's the personnel involved.


This is a nationwide industry crisis and will remain that way, in part but not the total fault of DDC controls and the like, because these very systems are marketed as a plug & play installation where skilled craftsman are not needed once installed. Hecht, it doesn't even take skilled craftsman to install the stuff already.

Hmmm. Of course, I have no idea about what it's like in your area DeltaT. But that's not a marketing ploy I've ever heard in this area.

BTW, nope, doesn't take a lot of special skills to install DDC systems. Just quite normal ones. It's the proper programming, setup, commissioning, and testing; follwing a proper system design in the first place; which takes skill. For most of our installations, we just hire regular electricians to pull the wire, pipe the conduit, mount controller panels on walls, terminate, etc. This isn't rocket science. We provide em with wiring diagrams. Plus I or a tech will go to the job site before they get very far along with big magic marker and mark big "X" with note, "DAT sensor goes here.", etc. We've about given up trying to teach em how to properly mount and install a damper motor. So for that, and for things like installing pressure sensors in piping, etc we send one of our in-house pipe fitters who is also an automation tech. Our automation techs are about evenly divided, half being pipe fitters, half being electrical/electronics types. We find the mix of skills works well. The techs help each other out. Each having own strenghts and weaknesses, and each knowing what those are. But for installation, unless it's just a small job, we farm out the majority of the labor to electricians. It's simple work. Setup, programming, etc is what takes the skill. And that's done by our automation techs. All ours, except for a couple newbies, carry more than one licensing/certification. An electronics or electrical type with no or little HVAC experience, will only be a helper (in our automation department), regardless of how long he's been an electrician or whatever, his journeyman status, or anything else. Until he's proven his HVAC knowledge on the job and passed certain testing. We're certainly not gonna put him in charge of anything until then. And I can say that as an electrician, DeltaT. While I am now an engineer, I have the licenses and the experience as an electrician. And as a HVAC mechanic. And as a Chief A (unlimited horsepower) Boiler type. Chuckle, in fact my lead automation tech is a pipefitter, who also happens to have a couple electrician's licenses. We find it works best if our automation techs, and the project managers, are multiple skilled people.


That's exactly what you have been selling as a selling point to your customers.

No, I haven't, DeltaT. I've never told a customer anything like that. Not even close.


I can tell you story upon story of my trobleshooting of all types of DDC systems over the past years all due to installation/design/product and/or maintenance failures.

I've got no reason to doubt you. I find this perfectly believeable.


AND in many of the DDC controls an added, never seen before nusiance shows up in erratic operations with, ironically, any self testing procedures, most of the time if not always, proving that there is nothing wrong when, in fact, the customer is steaming mad cause he knows his systems are not working correctly otherwise he would not have called (you) them.

No reason for me to doubt you here, hell, I've seen the same many times.


As for the size of building and control systems and complications I disagree again. Granted there are more controls and, maybe, more sequencies of operation. But once basic control theory is understood along with basis HVAC training any pneumatic/electric/electronic control system is very easy to understand and work on.

Hell, I still can't find anything you're saying I can take much issue with.


One of my points is, DDC control systems have been and will undergo the same problems that [blank] control systems have experienced, which is lack of knowledge/design/installation, etc. etc..[QUOTE]

Agreed.


[QUOTE]Most DDC control systems are being sold not to solve a problem or to improve control, but to benefit the builder of those DDC control systems.

Want some proof of that? Go ask just about any DDC control system maker for info/copies/parts/components on their software, hardware or over the counter parts availability.

Not sure if I agree with the first part. I think most folks in the DDC business have the best intentions. I'm just not so sure their knowledge is adequate.

As concerns the makers of the equipment. What do yah expect? They're manufacturers of equipment. Not the users. We routinely feed back info to manufacturers telling em they've just had the dumber idea. The good ones listen, and fix it.

[DeltaT]

osiyo
I've pushed my points enough and appreciate your feed back and knowledge. We probably are more headed in the same direction then shows up here. Most DDC control people I work with I would like to push off a roof -- not because that they are DDC control people but because they pretty much insult this industy in their methods, installations and promises. You, I have a feeling -- I would not try to push off a roof.

As a troubleshooter I try to read and see what it there and in your above posts you mentioned a couple of times about large frigin systems and that is where I took my reply from concerning complicated control systems statements. It's always possible you meant something else.

To clarify I am not against DDC control systems at all. I think they are cool and was on the ground floor as they were being developed by real HVAC control companies using HVAC control basics.

What I continue to be against is the electronic type, eggheads as mentioned before, that got into our business through the introduction of the affordable personal computer and their infiltration into this business with emphasis on bells and whistles in place of good design, installation and FULL service.

Ironically, some of the worst abusers now are some of the large control companies I use to work for and respect.

But they sure keep me amazingly busy.

Thanks again

[floating point]

Just my take on it but I think PNEU is dying. Why would anyone want to stay with it? How much does it cost to keep the compressor and drier running not to mention the service calls to figure out whats wrong if there is a problem. I have seen my share of poor DDC installations.

Most DDC problems I have seen is poor planning / programming and a salesman that promises the customer that the controls will fix everything. Kind of hard to fix a refrigerant leak or a faulty OA damper actuator with a PID loop. (you still have to get out the hand instruments.)

The other problem I have seen is people who don't have a clue trying to troubleshoot complex PNEU control loops. A point list and sequence of operation are absolutely essential no matter what type of controls you are using.

Oh yeah, I still quiver when I see a fist sized bundle of copper lines going to a panel and the customer wants to know what is wrong but it goes with the job..........

[osiyo]

Originally posted by DeltaT
osiyo
I've pushed my points enough and appreciate your feed back and knowledge. We probably are more headed in the same direction then shows up here.

I think so, and have thought so all along.


As a troubleshooter I try to read and see what it there and in your above posts you mentioned a couple of times about large frigin systems and that is where I took my reply from concerning complicated control systems statements. It's always possible you meant something else.

I was only talking about the shear amount of time to make it from here to there, then to over there, back over yonder, etc. In large installations, one can end up spending the majority of one's time just getting from here to there. Then yah finally isolate the problem, or think you have, just to find out yah need exactly the one size allen wrench yah haven't got with yah, and it's tromp clear across the building and down 5 floors to go get it.

Yep, some systems in large installations can get durned complex, also. But owning mechanic can figure that part out if he's inclined to want to be good at what he does.


What I continue to be against is the electronic type, eggheads as mentioned before, that got into our business through the introduction of the affordable personal computer and their infiltration into this business with emphasis on bells and whistles in place of good design, installation and FULL service.

Understood. And I can't see anything in the above statement that I can disagree with. There are those types who get into the business.

<Shrug> In the case of the manufacturers, if their stuff is garbage and not suitable, we send em messages to fix it and make it right. If they don't, we drop their line of crap. It's pretty simple. There are others who'll be more cooperative. And our attitude is that we're interested in pleasing our customers. Not the folks we buy parts from. It's the customers we have to look in the eye daily. It's the customers who sign the checks that pay us.

In the case of the above types who get into the actual installation and service part of the biz. Well, what can one say? There are shysters and hacks who get into almost any sort of business if they smell a buck to be made.

In field work, I've noted that some of the worst are ex-computer and IT sorts who've decided to get into the BAS biz. It seems as if the computer and IT world has bred more than it's fair share of fat headed "I know more than you ever will ..." types. LOL ...

Seemly convinced that their ideas, and ways of doing things are the only right way, that YOU, you dumb hick, should never question them, and that you should feel blessed and happy to accept what they give yah and learn to live with it and deal with it.

We've had a few come to work for us. Most of whom are now working elsewhere. A couple got with the program, once we stomped on their toes and proved to em that they weren't nearly as smart as they thought they were. Went into humble and learning mode, and went on to do okay. Another, well he's damned brilliant when it comes to OS's, networks, and a number of others things we find handy. So he still works for us. But he's had us kick him where it hurts on a number of occassions, and nowadays he has a very limited scope of things we allow him to do. Other things he's not allowed to touch. And he has final say on nothing, nothing at all.

As stated, the rest work elsewhere, now. Problems with em being primarily two.

1)Nasty tendency to TELL customer what he or she needs or wants, as versus asking then delivering what customer wants. This isn't good for business. You can create a technically perfect system, that works exactly the way yah intended it to. But if it doesn't fit the requirements of the HVAC system's designer and sequence of operation required for said system to perform as it should, and if it doesn't fit customer's ideas of how they want things to work ... it still sucks.

2)Said types have a nasty tendency to do all their thinking and troubleshooting from in front of a computer. Too many look at program and data and if bit or byte changes as program calls for it to do, they proclaim everything is working, and any problems are not their problem. Not good. Just a friggin computer program. Means nothing unless you go verify item at the end of the wires. Is the temp sensor working right, within specs as concerns accuracy, located in the right spot, of the right kind, etc. Okay, fine, puter says motor moving ... but IS it moving? In the right direction? The right amount? Etc. And DO NOT, don't yah DARE, tell me you verified damper is closed just because durned front end screen says so. Get off your lazy ass and go pop a cover, or make a hole, and LOOK.

Those are the sort of problems I've had with a number of the computer Guru types that've tried getting into the biz and came to work for us. Lazy, physically. Seemingly hate getting dirty, or getting all sweaty by climbing up a ladder in an operating boiler room to physically verify an actuator motor up against the ceiling is really connected and moving as it should. They just look at screen, if it says actuator moving, they figure their job is done.

You see? I have my own pet peeves with some people who get into our biz. One fellow of the type I mention above, now works elsewhere. Chuckle, and recently I ran into his new boss. Who asked me, "Is he always like this? Sometimes he pisses me off so much I want to just hit him with the biggest pipe wrench I can find."

To which I replied, "That's why he doesn't work for me any more. He's all yours. Have fun."

What can I say, DeltaT? There are gonna be jokers in every deck, and in every biz. Time will weed out the real players from the wannabes. People such as we're discussing will either learn, or they'll be history.

IMHO, in the field, we need more HVAC types to get interested and to get educated on DDC controls, electrical and electronic systems. And for the electrician and electronic types getting into BAS, we need for more of them to get themselves educated about HVAC systems.

IMHO, the system we us at the company where I work, where we form teams that have both electrical and pipefitter automation techs on same team, works well. As the two seem to compliment each other well. What one does not know, the other usually does. Not that we send two men to a one man job. But since guys are on same team, work together sometimes, know and trust each other, they're all the time calling each other on Nextel and knocking heads together to compare ideas and learn from each other. When needed, we have no problem when one calls the other and yelps "Help !". And the guy called makes time to run to the other's location for a look-see and show and tell session. In the end, this makes BOTH guys better technicians.

Hell, one of the tech's on my team is a 19 year experienced pipe fitter who's been doing commercial HVAC all that time. And while I am myself an old boiler and HVAC guy, if yah don't think that fellow teaches me something new from time to time, you'd be mistaken. I know a lot. But there are still even more things I don't know. He's seen and done things, and learned things I have not. And vice versa.


But they sure keep me amazingly busy.

Heck, then it's not all a bad thing. You can make a nice living fixing other people's dumbassed mistakes.

Tho, I do understand that sometimes one gets really pissed when you're looking at a job that's a mess made by someone else. And your customer is looking at you with doubts and suspicions. Are you gonna screw him or her, too? Are you as incompetent and full of BS as that last guy?

That sort of thing can get on one's nerves, especially if you're the sort who takes pride in your work and your skills.

I know, sometimes I feel exactly the same way. And am cussing under my breath (I don't let customer hear me), "You idiot ! What the hell were you doing and what were you thinking?". As I'm looking over somebody else's mess. The other thought is, "You a-hole, you're giving us all a bad rep !!!" That last thought, I don't like, not even a little. To me, this isn't just a living. It is that. But it's also my advocation, my identity, and something I take pride in. I like to look customer straight in the eyes and have no shame, and to have pride in self and my work. Which is kinda hard to do when customer has just been shafted by last 2 or 3 guys he's done business with.


Thanks again

Thank you. I've actually enjoyed your thoughts and observations. Most of which agree with my own. More so than otherwise. Sometimes I have wondered if I'm the only one who sees some of the stuff I do.

[osiyo]

Originally posted by floating point
Most DDC problems I have seen is poor planning / programming and a salesman that promises the customer that the controls will fix everything. Kind of hard to fix a refrigerant leak or a faulty OA damper actuator with a PID loop. (you still have to get out the hand instruments.)


Exactly. A GOOD controls contractor must be able to, and be willing to, thoroughly troubleshoot problems. And since there is very real, actual, physical equipment attached at the end of all those wires, and represented by the pretty pictures on a front end screen, he can never know his system is actually working right unless he goes there, to the end of the line and looks and tests equipment being controlled.

The answer of "Well, Mr Customer, my end of things is working fine. It's not my problem." Doesn't fly. Not really. You got to verify that your stuff really does work, and yah can't do that from the front end screen. That's just computer bits and bytes. Not real world.

It's like a recent small job I went on. Another contractor installed some controls on a site. Customer has had nothing but fits since then. Original contractor claimed his stuff working right, problems weren't his.

Uh huh, sure. Customer got pissed enough to dump other company, asked us to take a look.

I found things like poorly located sensor probes for air flow measuring stations. That was unsatisfactory especially as sequence of operation called for using that info as control data. There is an old phrase that holds true in the computer world. GIGO, garbage in- garbage out. They were getting bum data. I and a tech relocated probes to better location. And I had a balancer show up and take his readings to give me real data. I adjusted scaling on controller to cause it's readings to match balancer's numbers.

MAT sensor was single thermistor stick type. WRONG. Gave bogus info. I had it replaced with 25 foot, 9 thermistor, averaging sensor. At partial damper positions, velocity would be high, and stratification extreme, old sensor gave inaccurate data. New one fixed that.

Some dummy installed freezestats in MA box, ahead of heating coils. Units kept tripping out on freeze when trying to bring in required OA when it was cold outside. Unit would work for a while. Trip out and sit there til freeze sensor warmed up again. Then restart for a little while til it tripped again. (Autoreset freezestats) No wonder it was taking forever to warm up spaces served. Coupled with bad selection of MAT sensors, I was surprised system worked at all on cold days.

PID loop setting for dampers and valves ... sucked. Badly. Valves and dampers constantly hunting and making wild swings that were just plain unsatisfactory.

Etc.

Just because somebody knows how to program a DDC controller, build a points database, adequately put system onto a network, etc ... does not mean they're a good HVAC contractor. Yah gotta know and understand what you're controlling. Why, how, and the basic principles of good HVAC system operation.

It was obvious to me original contractor was lacking on understanding, or just too friggin lazy to get off ass and go look, feel, touch, and measure the stuff at the end of those wires.

[Control Man]

In the past 30 years I have seen both PNEUMATIC and DDC systems designed , installed , operated , serviced , destroyed by MORONS who think that they know everything.

Both systems require MAINTENANCE , CALIBRATION, sad part is that the person ( $ trained not TECH trained ) making the decision thinks " well my computer at home has ran for 3 years without anything being done to it , so the COMPUTERIZED controls must be the same "

I have 2 large complexs that are Fully DDC controlled with a Complete PNEUMATIC backupsystem in place as they cannot afford a shutdown do to a computer glitch , software burp , device melt down.

The yearly service requirements for both systems is very well stipulated and followed.

[DeltaT]

Originally posted by Control Man
I have 2 large complexs that are Fully DDC controlled with a Complete PNEUMATIC backupsystem in place as they cannot afford a shutdown do to a computer glitch , software burp , device melt down.

Now that's one I haven't run across. Funny.

Years ago when I was working for Honeywell we had a hospital admin/tech person call us for a meeting about his new hospital and new control system. He opened the pneumatic control main panel, grabbed a tube and pulled it off, waved it in my branch managers face and yelled (really) "do you think we are fools? You didn't put in any wire inside these lines"

Control man is certainly right. Lack of knowledge works both sides of the street. But it seems more specialized in the newer electronic systems for whatever you want to call them.

I miss the good old days where you had to spend a great amount of time training and developing skills. And were appreciated and got paid well for being a better skilled person.

[seaboard]

I'll read through this thread later when I have some more time. There's still a lot of pneumatics in my area and a definate lack of people that know how to work on it. We were busy today and I ran a call myself at a building down the street. Another company had come in and bypassed all the summer/winter selector switches that controlled the outdoor air dampers. The note they left said this was done to "close" the dampers but sending air to them opens them. Then they went to the outdoor air dampers and saw they were open so they disconnected all the linkages and threw the dampers shut (well, some were open and some were shut). On one air handler, both the return and outdoor air dampers were shut so the duct was imploding. On another air handler they couldn't get the hot deck warm enough (because they had outside air wide open) so they jacked up the setpoint sky high. The building's simply a mess.

Back on subject, pneumatics are great, and they don't lock in a sole source service provider but they do require constant calibration. Anyone that thinks DDC doesn't isn't living in the real world either though.

The building I mention above is up for sale and could be remodeled or could be torn down. The air handlers(Westinghouse), chillers (Worthington), and boilers (came over on the Mayflower) are all in the sub-basement (that's right, two floors underground). This equipment doesn't lend itself to replacement because of it's location. What suggestions do you have? We've converted hot deck/cold deck pneumatic systems to DDC VVT or VAV systems before but not on this scale. Ever done anything like that?

[Control Man]

DELTA T the DDC / PNEUMATIC backup system is quite the deal , when originally installed I had the Pneumatics finished before the DDC was completed so we ran it on PNEUMATIC for a good test , worked great . DDC system uses pneumatic end devices and if it fails EP opens to all the PNEUMATIC control cabinets and the PNEUMATICS come alive. We have to simulate a DDC failure twice a year and verify the PNEUMATICS. Both buildings also have a COMPLETE backup for every mechanical system , 1 fails other kicks in handy for doing service / maint.

Other neat thing is the DDC is in both ENGLISH & FRENCH , has to seperate front ends and a ENGLISH - FRENCH selector switch.

[DeltaT]

Control Man
Sounds like you have a PDDC system. You may have started something new. It's the only way you can guarantee the operation of a DDC control system, cool.

So how do you say pneumatics in French? La Workee-rightie.

[ozone drone]

I too am an old rheumatics fitter. 5 years with Johnson Controls and 3 1/2 with Honeywell. Being a fitter, Johnson and Honeywell were always careful to segregate fitters from the non-union automation techs. It didn't take a genius to see that pneumatics was on borrowed time and computerized bas systems were the future.

It's also true that the computer geeks hired to install these systems didn't have a clue as far as knowing what control strategies to use or what an economizer cycle was, or mixed air or reset schedules etc. Before Belimo actuators arrived, I argued that electronic valve and damper operators were too expensive and unreliable to ever compete with a pneumatic actuator. I mean a pinhole in a diaphragm was the worst case scenario, parts and labor $100.00 max. $1,500 electronic actuators that lasted 2 seasons if lucky were common.

I got a chance to dive into Tracer 10's 100's and L's in my 10 years with Trane. I LOVED being able to call up a building from my p.c. when on call and decide if I REALLY had to drive over there in the middle of the night. I loved pneumatics and I love my DDC, gotta change with the times or get left behind. I have no pneumatics here where I work now.

[osiyo]

Originally posted by ozone drone

Being a fitter, Johnson and Honeywell were always careful to segregate fitters from the non-union automation techs. It didn't take a genius to see that pneumatics was on borrowed time and computerized bas systems were the future.


Ahhhh. Perhaps this explains some of my confusion with not understanding the extent of the hard feelings some of the fellows have with DDC systems.

I was not aware some companies were segregating automation from other sides of the house. Or using very many non-HVAC types for actual system installation, setup, commissioning and programming.

My experience, and I thought it to be a common one (but it would seem maybe it's not), has been different. In the Navy, where besides pneumatics we mostly used PLC's, the "techs" were usually a mixed bag of electronics types with a lot of mechanical training, and mechanics with a fair bit of electrical and electronic controls training. Things were done as a team effort. The electronics types took the lead in electronic controls (PLC's), but didn't even think about doing anything without consulting the mechanics and both sides knocking their heads together. The mechanics types were also trained on the PLC's, just not as extensively.

Then, when I worked for a phone company after retiring from the Navy, the particular one I worked for did much the same. Automation was done by a mixed team of mechanics and electricians, with a computer type thrown in here and there.

Now, with the company for whom I work, as I've mentioned in other posts, the "automation techs" are about a 50/50 mix of electricians (with lots of HVAC background) and pipefitters. With the occassional computer type who has managed to learn something about HVAC systems. Not many of the last sort. Not in the field. Got a couple back in the office, who specialize in figuring out network issues, interfacing one protocol with another, do some special programming we require from time to time for special projects. ie Unusual trend log analysis programs, and specialty programs that mostly reside on the front end. Programs that actually control equipment are normally done by an experienced (with HVAC, fire systems, etc) automation tech. ALL programs must be approved by an automation tech who has proven knowledge of the systems being controlled.

ie Even when the "back office" generates programs, they're not accepted and used, as is, without being thoroughly checked by an automation tech. Generally, almost always, back office generated programs end up being changed in the field so that they actually work right. Inevitably the back office overlooks something, didn't know something, had a brain fart, or whatever.

In the kind of jobs we deal with most of the time, "canned" routines and ASC controllers see limited use, beyond VAV controllers, small heat pump serving a single room, hanging UH in a dock area, etc. If one discounts VAVs, I doubt if more than 10% of the controllers we install are ASC types, or general purpose controllers with "canned", off the shelf, routines running in them.

Ohhh, the "back office" tries. And they're a bright enough bunch. And actually well educated in engineering and HVAC.

But it's more a theoretical, or academic knowledge. And they're right, 90% of the time. Its the other 10% of the time that bites em in the ass. And the reason everything they put out; schematics, written sequences of operation, pre-made front end graphic screens, and actual programs in the controllers; are considered "tentative". A starting point. But before anything gets turned on and ran, a tech goes thru all, and fixes the major glitches. Then sits down and starts looking for the minor ones, finding them, and fixing them.

And there are ALWAYS glitches. It's the tech's job to fix em and ensure final product both works correctly, AND that the customer is satisfied with it.


It's also true that the computer geeks hired to install these systems didn't have a clue as far as knowing what control strategies to use or what an economizer cycle was, or mixed air or reset schedules etc.

Hmmm. I've run across a couple computer geeks tossed into BAS, without grown-up supervision. But have only seen it a couple times. I'd not thought it so prevalent elsewhere.

Interesting.


I LOVED being able to call up a building from my p.c. when on call and decide if I REALLY had to drive over there in the middle of the night.

Yep, there is that part of the biz that can be nice.

Not all of em do it. But the vast majority of our customers are very cooperative about making sure we can access their system from outside if necessary. So many times when we get a complaint call, if it's normal business hours, somebody in the office will dial in to the customer's site to see if whatever can be fixed remotely. Or to at least see what the real problem is so that if a man is dispatched he has an idea of what he's getting into. And can figure out if he should stop and get some parts first. After hours, our service guys on call like to dial in and check it out before hitting the road. Many times can make temporary fix remotely, or determine it can wait for normal working hours. They like that. Most of em aren't all that hot over getting more overtime. Will usually be happy if they can write up an hour of labor, adjusting and/or troubleshooting from home in his boxers, then crawl back into a nice warm bed or wife, and do the real fix come next working day. Especially when it's minus 20 outside, and the snow's up over your knees.

[ozone drone]

I'm talking 1979-1987 when BAS systems were just coming on line. Honeywell even had "Union" and "Non-Union" trucks!

Union fitters would be lucky to get an am radio. The "techs" would get ac/cruise/ cassette player. Of course the techs were maybe getting 8-12 /hr and union scale was around 18/hr then. Honeywell was alot more openly antagonistic with their union help. We were a necessary evil that was shoved down their throats.

Johnson was less overtly hostile, but still tried to keep the techs and fitters from mingling and sharing knowledge.

[DeltaT]

ozone
You bring back some very bitter memeories for me with the fitter/tech thing. What we use to call EMS systems back then in the early 70's, which was the term used to replace central stations for large properties, came about because of the oil crisis in the early 70's.

At that time I was designing/selling all types of controls for the commmercial division of Honeywell in and around the Washington DC area. Because of my field background, I fit into this crisis era really well and designed and sold control systems till they were coming out of my ears. Did a lot of big and famous projects and had a lot of fun.

Then the affordable personal computer came out and I found myself faced with sales people coming out to the woodwork who had computer programming experience, especially IBM...yes, they were in our business. That's when the term "black box" came out cause that is literally what they sold.

I ended up designing/selling the first leased line energy management systems in that area to some pretty big places, and some small too.

That's when the problem started. Technicians were hired to install the EMS systems which were right next to and sometimes in place of the pneumatic controls which could only be touched (literally) by union steam fitters.

The techs just wanted to go to work and learn. Most of them were pretty smart and made 1/3 of the steam fitters did, which was right. One of the original techs I am still friends with and he now owns his own HVAC & DDC control firm on the east coast with over 100 employees. Very smart guy.

But the war started. I had 12 steam fitters, most of which were brillant but spoiled and 6 techs installing stuff. I had to schedule almost every day to make sure the two would not meet on the same job. Now I was for both of them because both were pretty good groups of people but I could have gotten rid of every steam fitter in a minute because of the way they acted. They would fight, I mean, fight about how many miles outside the beltway they could drive before they got an extra 15 cents per mile or something like that. Every day they would create arguements about something, usually to do with them getting more money, nickle and dime stuff.

The oil crisis and the afforadable personal computer started this generation in the early 70's. I could see back then that the steam fitters attitude would do them in alone. And it was and still is a shame because they sure represent a lot of knowledge and skill. They are still around but haven't changed much. I still have lots of union friends but I know never to get them started or actually make them think about their own situation or effect.

Ironically, shortly after we got some great leased line systems installed and up and running with some really good results the upgrade of the baud rate and the microzation of computre put me out of that sector of the business. In 2 years we were obsolete. But Honeywell built some pretty good systems back then.

Those were very good days and very rough at the same time. Even back then I would watch as for every HVAC contol system we would design/install using proper control theory, there were tons of small computer oriented companies saturating the commercial market with everything from electronic time clocks in a box to electronics that showed every display you could imagine but basically did nothing except duty cycle and turn things on and off even if it was not good for the equipment. I can not tell you how many compressors would cycle on and off rapidly because the electronic guys looked at our machinery as light bulbs...you can just turn them on and off when you wanted too.

[ozone drone]

Wasn't Honeywell's system called a Delta something or other?
I think I remember a Johnson gag poster showing a Delta toilet in reference to Honeywell's system. Anyway I think Honeywell and Johnson saw computerized BAS systems as a convenient means to rid themselves of expensive and whiney
union hands. They were spoiled and whiney like you said. I was in Wyoming back then.

There was a provision in the National Contract between the UA and The Controls companies (Honeywell,Johnson, Powers etc.) that if the hall could not provide qualified people, the companies could go and hire whoever they deemed qualified. I accidently got caught up in this squabble.

I was trained in HVAC in the Air Force. After getting out of the military was working residential,light commercial for a Mom and Pop shop. I was sick of the "MOM's PMS moments and was looking for another job. An interesting ad in the paper turned out to be an employment agency, who asked me how I felt about unions. They sent me to their client, who happened to be Honeywell, for an interview. At the interview Honeywell asked me how I felt about unions too. After Honeywell said they liked my schooling but didn't feel I had enough chiller/commercial experience.I left the interview wondering about the union which the employment agency and Honeywell had planted the seed of curiosity.....So I drove over to the UA hall went in and was asking how I go about joining...just then the BA walked by and asked if I had been talking to any employers. I said I had just left an interview with Honeywell. The BA grabbed me by my elbow took me into his office, picked up the phone and called Honeywell and asked "what did you think of (my name)?

I was shocked, thinking this guy just blew my small chance of my getting on with Honeywell. I didn't hear anything from Honeywell and about 6 weeks later the UA calls my house asking how I'd like to go to work for Honeywell?

[Control Man]

Ah yes the DELTA 1000 , quite the MONSTER in its time.

Up this way HW they did all kinds of BS to the fitters , put in a mileage clause , only so many mile radius of the centre of the city for taking the truck home. 1 guy found a parking spot dead on the fringe and would leave it there and drive an old beater from there to home. Then they changed it to token amount per mile for personal use , he just recieved a new van , took out the shelves put in a couple couchs and used the van for a cross country vacation , worked out to be rather CHEAP trip.

[DeltaT]

Originally posted by Control Man
Ah yes the DELTA 1000 , quite the MONSTER in its time.

Yep, that was my monster. We used it for leased line control and communication for commercial buildings. We had buildings 10 miles away and 500 miles away. It worked out really nice. We had an unbelievable 600 baud rate and then jumped to 1200.

It was the mainframe of an IBM 3500 or something. That's when I first noticed how this form of electronics were introducing uncontrollable and nonsensiable situations into the HVAC field.

One night we had the system go down and we had this retired Navy Chief watching over the system. He was pretty good. I asked him what was wrong, being use to having answers that were precise and on the mark, and he looked at me and shrugged his shoulders and said "I don't know." So I asked him how long will the system be down and he said "maybe 3 days, I don't know." Ends up all he could do was continue to replace the main frame boards until the thing started working right again. Hmmmm, sound famaliar?

Then the Delta 2000 came out which was 1/10 the size and twice the power of the Delta 1000 and was for in-building use. That put us out of business almost overnight, well, the Delta 1000 it did. I kept on trucking selling renovations to a lot of those other systems such as the IBM installs and small computer oriented systems with no control theory background. It was a field day for me. Sometimes I would sell a new system back to the same customer 3 time in a year and 1/2 because someone else, building engineer or outside DDC (not a term used back then)firm would pretty much trash the existing & working controls to install their own brand.

[DeltaT]

Two short stories about union experiences.

The man who got me involved in HVAC talked me into going to school for HVAC & said the Steam Fitters were the only way to go. So I go over to New Jersey Ave in DC to sign up for school & this gentleman behind the union hall counter laughs a little & tells me there is a 3 year waiting list to get into the "new" union air conditioning program.

Discouraged I turn around to walk away & mumble why did Mr (the man who advised me to apply) would tell me to apply if there is a 3 year waiting list. The gentlemen over heard me speak this mans name & asked how I knew him. So I tell him he is the one who sent me over & he is like a father to me.


So the union guy says something about "no problem, we'll get you into the next school session." That's when I learned that most of the union policies are centered around a good old boys white mans club. I said no thanks and left.

At Honeywell I kept 3 steam fitters and a few techs pretty busy with my sales. I sold a control valve for a cooling tower for a large government chiller which kept shutting down on freeze protection. But the job could only get done over the weekend and the chiller had to be back on line Monday morning.

So John, Dave (the shop steward) and Skip took on the job which was all overtime. We were all good friends. Skip was the apprentice and even kept his 32 Ford in my shop/garage to work on from time to time.

Installing the valve in the line they forgot one of the flanges but they could not get to it as it took all 3 to hold the valve up -- big valve. So not wanting them to get hurt or have to go through the work of removing the valve and putting it down on the floor again, I picked up the flange handed it to John and he welded it in place. Good & normal thing to do right?

They finished, Dave walked over got right in my face and started screaming at me that if I ever touch anything on their jobs again he is going to strike the whole shop. Man, I was shocked. Talk about a Dr Jeckle and Mr Hyde situation. Over the years I have had some of the same experiences so I have learned that I, for the most part, must treat union members more as kids then adults and that is a real shame.


BTW, I still have my original T400 kit. Ever seen one of those?

[Control Man]

I picked up a circular saw that someone left laying on a scaffold , wound up the extension cord nice and tidy like place everything out of the way " SAFETY REASON ".

Looked around and watch the 20+ carpenters walk off the site as a result of a NON MEMBER of the CARPENTERS UNION touching a carpenters saw.

[DeltaT]

Control Man
We could probably tell lots of these stories. Was at a Carrier dinner last year for the dealers and the table got talking about some of this.

The couple across the table from me, his wife told me her office complex is totally controlled by the union although she and he workmates are not union. She said she and any of the employees can not uplug or plug in a lamp, computer or coffee pot into any electrical outlet anywhere in the complex without calling a union maintenance guy to do it.

Wash State is being hit hard by the IBEW and they are driving lots of small shops out of business. I keep telling all the guys on this board but I don't think anyone is listening. It will be too late when they get into your states.

Now I got to stop because I have to get a bid out for repair (no kiddin) of a pneumatic control system. Has old Honeywell one pipe stats. The air compressor is the original 1968 model and still working with the big Honeywell lettering on the tank.

[ozone drone]

It was 1979 when my bosses at Honeywell said "Look at this screen ....The information being displayed are temperatures of different office areas of the Mountain Bell building in Rock Springs" (200 miles away) ....we can turn pumps on and off from here or the lights". I thought I was witnessing science fiction.

A few years later (1984) I was calling up contract customers from home on my (believe it or don't)Commodore 64 talking to Tracer 10's (glorified time clocks)and doing the science fiction my ownself.

[DeltaT]

Originally posted by ozone drone
It was 1979 when my bosses at Honeywell said "Look at this screen ....The information being displayed are temperatures of different office areas of the Mountain Bell building in Rock Springs" (200 miles away) ....we can turn pumps on and off from here or the lights". I thought I was witnessing science fiction.

We had buildings in N.J. or Delaware hooked up and I could read the temperatures 500 miles away. We also had them in a number of office building all around DC and I could go from building to building checking temps, etc.

The displays were the old vacuum tubes with the numbers inside that would light up. Really looked cool. The main control/display panel looked exactly like something you would see in Star Wars.

We even did security on the Honeywell building located in Tyson Corner, Va, which is where our main terminal was.

We also got into lightning, all kinds of pumps including shutting off decoration pumps at night for large complexes including colleges.

We even got into lighting control and worked with the in-house maintenance crew to turn off lights as they finished the floors. Man, did that cut down on the power bill.

A guy in Richmond, VA and myself even worked on a rain sensor so we could tie it into the automatic water systems for a college lawn system. Never did get it to work though.

Nothing personal but you got to be old to remember this stuff!

[Control Man]

Was great to see the BIRTH of DIGITAL AUTOMATION today its all revised , updated , improved back then it was HOPE this WORKS.

Had 1 job that the guy could not understand how the 1st Fax machines worked , told him its like photo copier only it spits it out 200 miles away. If he was still around todays technology would really baffle him.

DELTA T

Ran across some old HONEYWELL controllers you might remember

HONEYWELL MD7900 A1K3 Electric Control System big old grey box 8 knobs and vacumn tubes sharing an outdoor air sensor for 4 controllers controlling 4 large supply valves. It still WORKS but being 40 years old they want it updated.

[DeltaT]

Originally posted by Control Man
Ran across some old HONEYWELL controllers you might remember

HONEYWELL MD7900 A1K3 Electric Control System big old grey box 8 knobs and vacumn tubes sharing an outdoor air sensor for 4 controllers controlling 4 large supply valves. It still WORKS but being 40 years old they want it updated.

A big black painted box with ripple effect paint if I remember correctly. And the knobs were black with indentations in them for a better grip, right?

Ironic cause I just got two different chruches and their associated schools all with a combo of pneumatic and/or electric/electronic (by that I mean the old vacuum tubes or the 7 or 9 series controllers) which I am rebuilding or replacing. I have two really old day/night electric 3 wire stats I'm pulling off the wall on one church which I am going to save for my collection and take a picture of. I'll post it in controls for your enjoyment. I have never seen these types of room stats before and they are like brand new. One even still is in control of the church.

The other church has boiler hot water reset and a temperature discharge controller on the main A/H all operated by vacuum tube controllers. I'll probably switch those over to Teckmar as soon as the church runs their budget.

It's really amazing, isn't it, that these controls, at least the ones I run into, still work almost as if they were brand new. We have a duty to keep some of them to show others, as they come along, what we started with and how good they were. I just hope they care.

Later

[Control Man]

Have a Church with BARBER COLMAN electric controls installed in 1965. With the exception of 2 valve actuators all of the system is original, they have a office / residence next door that was built in 1962 and has the original BARBER COLMAN Pneumatics , compressor pump has been changed twice.

[rubobornot]

There are alot of 50 year old pneumatic systems still in operation, I wonder how many DDC systems will last for a third of that time.

[lonboy]

Like many of you, I learned control theory back in the day when pneumatics were the standard for open & interoperable control systems. Back when energy was cheap, we maintained a 50 deg cold deck and a 95 hot deck mixing a constant volume of hot & cold air to satisfy the zone. Everyone was happy. Enter the energy crisis in the 70's which changed everything. However as well as they could work, pneumatics were basically dumb and didn't easily understand PID, optimimum start, PLC logic, demand control, or how to provide a web based user-interface to monitor and adjust everything. And, few technicians actually understood how to implement a reset schedule or calculate a controllers proportional band unless they worked for or were taught by Johnson or Honeywell - sysint excepted.

Consider too that in almost every commercial HVAC application, pneumatics had a single point of failure - the air compressor - usually the least maintained and understood component of the mechanical system. I'm sure many of you have heard war stories that included water leaking out of that 2 pipe stat. These were the days of pressure based control systems which I'll also lump in 4-20ma and 0-10V. Today however, we're transitioning to information based control devices which communicate with each other by sending message packets containing all kinds of control information.

OK, so what's my point. Well, DDC in it's many forms is a control technology that will be here for many years to come. Look around you. You're reading this on a PC and chances are you have more than one. You check your email religiously for posts to hvac-talk. You probably have a cellphone with GPS and your boss knows where their phone is. You've got a housefull of appliances that contain microprocessors. You pay your bills via online banking - blah, blah, blah. We're surrounded by digital technology and there will be no going back to the good old days!

The good control techs today are part tin knocker, part freon jockey, part sparky, part radioshack hack, and part computer geek. These are the people and the companies who assemble all the parts and deliver the solution to the end user - I think the term for this job today is Network Integrator. And, this is where the true value of control systems lies today - the integrator - their ability, creativity, and the power of the tools they use.

Besides, the 4th law of thermodynamics states:
"Everything gets worse under pressure"

Just my 2 cents...

[ozone drone]

Originally posted by DeltaT

Nothing personal but you got to be old to remember this stuff! [/B]

Yeah, I'll be 56 in April ...don't feel old. It's been a fun ride.

[bornriding]

I have thouroughly enjoyed this post. Would love to work in controls.
One question though, many discussions on which is best, pneumatics or DDC. But which system would actually cost less to operate for a period of ten years. Repairs, maintanence, installation costs, VS savings ? Considering the same systems, which would generally give you good performance for the money spent?

[DeltaT]

bornriding
In my experience and opinion DDC controls would be more economical over a longer period of time and control better with more capabalities for event timing.

BUT in my experience and opinion the majority of DDC controls are not HVAC oriented and not installed or designed by HVAC people (some on this board are exceptions from what I see) so the DDC controls end up costing much more, work less, fail more including many erratic events, are controlled, installed and worked on (?) by primadona's who prove their worth by keeping operation, programs, hardware, software, etc to themselves and make the customer pay and pay over and over again for the priveledge of having them involved in their HVAC systems.

[Control Man]

DELTA T your response was very true. Sad part is when you think of all the UPGRADES we never had the chance to sell a PNEUMATICS customer compared to what has been sold to DDC customers in the past 25 years.

[sysint]

"Upgrades" and "restrictions" pushed me into Lonworks.

With some manufacturers putting out 5 year warranties on hardware you would think that DDC wins out over time. Theoretically speaking there should be less maintenance. The more ASC stuff out there the easier and less expensive it gets.

[roadking]

Im doing one now. Still installing some in south Ms. area but most is DDC.

[ps]

I'm late to this thread but I have to ask Delta. I worked in the DC area in the eighties, mostly servicing JCI systems (Naval Academy, National Archives, etc). But I do remember an old HW Delta 1000(?) system at George Washington University. You had to use a tape recorder to reload the CPU! The front end is probably gone but the field panels were rock solid (albeit unwieldy to work on). Hadn't thought about those days in a long time.

BTW - The National Archives had a JC85/40 system monitoring and running the chiller but the rest was all pneumatics. Keeping that old system (and building, and equipment) calibrated for temperature AND humidity control was a b*tch - but it's where I learned pneumatics and HVAC. Something that many HVAC engineers and controls types could take a lesson from.

[DeltaT]

PS
I was gone from DC by the 80's but have walked where you have walked. We had a bunch of Delta 1000's all over the place but nothing compared to IBM and others.

I had a friend high-up in the GSA Region 3 mechanical systems for Govt building and they had plenty of the Johnson something systems. Most of them would not work or did not work and he would shutter as Johnson under bid all of us control people to get the jobs that he would have to live with for years to come. BTW, he married my sister and we still talk about those days from time to time.

IBM had a board member on the Smithonian Institute board so they had a foot in the door ahead of all of us. Their "engineers" sold them black boxes for some of the museums which would cycle some of their main A/H motors on/off to save energy. Not only did the humidity/temp get out of hand on those building but very large blower motors started to fail through cycling on/off. These motors (I'm sure you have seen them) have been running non-stop 24/7 for years and years with no problems till these non-HVAC guys showed up on the scene.

I did work with a lot of govt buildings including the White House where there is/was an installtion of Honeywell pneumatic controls like no other. The original installer was a man named Quade, I worked with his son, and he installed a ton of 1/4 inch lines all perfectly level and parallel.

Once a group of us was at NIH up in NW and the elevator froze mid floor which was out of the boiler/chiller room. 15 of us guys sweated until the circuit reset. Talk about hot in a machine room!

[DeltaT]

PS
I forgot to add GW University was one of my biggest customers. I once sold them $10,000 worth of self contained hot water valves for their guys to install on all their radiators.

In my own business I fixed their Trane system that took care of the morgue. Interesting call that was.

[old fitter]

I have taught and calibrated pneumatics for over 25yrs.Show me a guy with a good understanding of all the different brands and you have a person that has a huge "system" knowledge,and can understand conrol of all mediums and the equipment that goes with it.It is a shame what the socalled control contractors have done with the pneumatic option.Because thier sales achievment is strictly numbers,they wont even present this still good method of control,even though thier company builds the product!The profit margi is not there with pneumatics and fitters as compared with circiut boars built in Mex and a 15/hr tech.They typically charge 120+/hr for their service calls.The one I work for now,at another branch had a phone center set up.They would receive your service call,pass that to an on line tech seated at a pc,they would bypass or correct your problem,and bill you 1hr.Imagine the cash rolling in as opposed to a fitter arriving in a van to calibrate a stat and controller.These days I am removing pneumatics more than servicing them,all because of corp greed.

[DeltaT]

old fitter
You hit it right on. It's a skilled field that has been taken over mostly by gimmics to sell stuff and keep the customer dependent on them. But that's true almost in everything electronic these days. Just look at the computer industry, hardware and software.

I use to do A LOT of troubles shooting for a DDC guy who installed his crap on HVAC systems and had no idea what he was doing...although he had been in the business for over 10 years.

We had lunch once and he told me what he had made in his FIRST year of business, which was over twice as much as I had made that year. He just pushed systems without regard to the customer. I was working my butt off to help him make his sytems work, which I did most of the time. Other times it was just too hopeless so he sold the customer a new DDC control system.

It's pretty sick.

[old fitter]

SO true,these guys also have a huge dose of arrogance and disrespect,and an anybody can do it attitude.In defense we clam up then they say we dont get along.Lets see,we studied and MASTERED most all systems and controls,and they come along and are given all the time in the world to add additional code to a screwed up sequence because no matter how long they spend ,the job is so fat it cant tank.The sales guys arrive in thier giant SUV,and work a territorial scheem that has them on a never ending spiral.

[Control Man]

So VERY , VERY true, went through the DDC expert BS last week until the little DWEEB found out I had installed the DDC portion of the job 9 years ago and the PNEUMATIC 12 years ago. Building operator sort of let him know there was only 3 service calls in the past 11 years and 27 in the past 6 months. Funny part is the DDC expert started playing with everything about 6 months ago.

[Edited by Control Man on 02-28-2005 at 02:54 PM]

[DeltaT]

Guys
All is not lost this week. I just replaced a pneumatic air compressor on an old 3 story school that had been running wild for a year cause the other compressor had had it and had not been running. The previous company installed a 1/4 HP in place of a 3/4 HP and couldn't figure out why it wouldn't work.

The school administrators are extremely happy considering they have been bombarded with expert advice that all the controls need ripping out and replaced with DDC stuff.

Once the new compressor was installed I went quickly through all their controls and found only one leaking. The controls were installed in 1968. Finnally, maybe I won't get called to the principals office. :)

I literally saved them thousands and thousands of dollars.

One system at a time.

[nikko]

pneumatic....the "ultimate" open protocol :)

lma

[DeltaT]

AND, I just picked up my mail and in it was another school/church pneumatic control customer that I had done some work for about 7 years ago. And a few repairs about 2 months ago with some recommendations. The administrator has given me to go ahead on repairs and bringing the systems back up to par.....again.

I already did all this 7 years ago. Since then, they got another company that led them down a costly path. Things like all the unit vent air filters are plugged. Some belts are broken or falling off. The original thermostats were disconnected during a remodel and never hooked up again. The entire church/school was run off a time clock hooked up to the boiler, etc, etc, etc.

Two down and more to go. :)

[seaboard]

Originally posted by lma
pneumatic....the "ultimate" open protocol :)

lma

That's a good one. Quoted a property management company for some repairs last month. They had another contractor in there for a couple of months and they had bypassed all the summer/winter switches then they disconnected outdoor damper linkages when they still couldn't get the desired effect. Mixed air temps are all over the place on this hotdeck/colddeck system. Got a call Thursday saying that the gas bill was more than double a normal month. Any idea why!

[DeltaT]

Twenty five years ago just about this month I had a call at a college campus in a very large and new building that was very cold everywhere.

Went to the machine room to find the boilers blasting away but a bank of OA dampers sitting 100% open. OA temp was in the 30's during the day and 20's at night. One of the local campus shop guys stuck a pop cicle stick in the mixed air receiver controller to keep the dampers open cause of a too hot office call he had gotten a week before.

Took about 3 days for the building to heat up again!

[seaboard]

This property manager has to go to bat again with the owner to shell out the money to fix the controls. I did the math for him and told him it's costing him about $300 a day until it's fixed so I expect that when they do approve it they'll want it done a month ago.

[old fitter]

What amazes me,we had a new owner take over a large medical facility recently,and called my "controls" co to come take a look at it.Come to find out the original pneumatics,though somewhat neglected,was still in place and operational.First the co sends three office types to look at what they know nothing about,of course it includes lunch.The owner states he wants some options,so the next day no less than 8 people show up from our office to do a partial {ballpark}takeoff.Days later they end up quoting the poor guy just under a mill to rip out all his stuff and go ddc.They didnt get the bid,but youve got to ask how in the world mgt can not listen to a customer,not use the option of pneumatics they sell,paintbrush a bid then take the loss on maybe 100 or more hours of shop time by the sales and eng staff.Sound familiar?

[sysint]

Well, how about spending inordinate amounts of time going through pneumatics "putting it back" to original, or getting hung up replacing alot of components because of lack of care when at that time it may have been more beneficial to go DDC.

Works both ways. Just a matter of doing your job and using some discernment. Easy to get either the modernization bug on DDC or overly nostalgic about pneumatics. A wrong decision is simply wrong.

[old fitter]

But the field people in these branches support the office staff and thier dicisions.I think the function of a good salesman is to present all the options,then let the customer decide.These so called"specialists" and sales reps have little system knowledge compared to the experienced service fitter,but they will be the first to tell you that doesnt matter,money does.

[sysint]

They are right about the money. The property owner sees it like this:

Is my money better in the bank or for repairs/replace?
Am I better off (cash flow/payback/accounting advantage/energy) to replace or fix? (note replace may be more expensive than fix but it doesn't matter overall)
Make decision. Decision may be do nothing, fix, or replace.

....and it's different every time.

Anyway, what I'm saying is your sales staff may not be technically competant... but they may understand money really well. It's about the money.