Tell me about your "underdog" system. What would you build?

[djp0623]

I've been saving for a system, and was told today during my bi-annual inspection that the thought of replacement should start crossing my mind.

Assume that money isn't the limit.

I want a system that shouldn't work as well as it does, a system that competes with the high end systems, but costs less. A system that needs a knowledgeable installer to get the most out of the equipment. If the infinity is the best, then fine, but that isn't any fun. Strut your stuff, and be creative.

I'm in northern AL, assume a 4 ton unit, hybrid system, good year round humidity control, no dry skin in the winter. Please include a short blurb about why you chose what you chose.

I think this will be an informative thread with great potential. Please take this seriously.

[junkhound]

Caveat: OK, My pro membership is because I design AC systems for airplanes , I have never done a 'for hire' residential install .

6 Years ago when I first came onboard here and asked a similar question, Robin (Robotek) assured me that Goodman was not the junk as many others said at the time, so I bought and installed a goodman (lowest price for me not being an authorized dealer at any of the majors) at both son and mom's house, no complaints, both have functined perfectly since then.

That said, the goodman sheet metal did need some beefing up, so if your installer is competent, that person can do that -- e.g the air handler for the son's house install needed a reinforcement bar down the middle, just a piece of emt across the middle.

Think just about every pro here would say it is the competence of the installer these days vs. the brand name.....any disagreements??

[XMéfiant]

Goodman is my brand of choice to install. Probably the best warranty out there. Easy to service, best bang for your buck.

[djp0623]

OK, but which model pump, air handler, furnace, computer system, humidifier if you chose one???? and why, why, why???

This WILL NOT be a self install on my part. It will help me to ask installers questions.

Like I said before, be creative. No bashing peoples ideas in this thread either. Create your system, and support why you chose the pieces you chose.

Thanks for a good start guys

[beenthere]

York 2 stage heat pump with Mod furnace. Honeywell envirozone zoning pane(need third part dual fuel control), with the duct system set up for 3 to 4 zones.

Either an Aprilaire bypass humidifier, or a EWC Autoflow steam humidifier(Because they actually put moisture in the air).

[energy star]

I wish I had natural gas. If I did, I would incorporate a hot water coil into my duct system. This would not come with the air handler but be external to it. I would then take a serious look at the new on demand hot water units with the capability to heat this coil. They no classify them them as on-demand boilers. I would also have a heat pump.

[djp0623]

I wish I had natural gas. If I did, I would incorporate a hot water coil into my duct system. This would not come with the air handler but be external to it. I would then take a serious look at the new on demand hot water units with the capability to heat this coil. They no classify them them as on-demand boilers. I would also have a heat pump.

That's a neat idea. Combine it with a hot water return reservoir, and the tankless water heater would probably not need to heat very much. I winder how hot a water fed coil needs to be in order to sufficiently heat the incoming air. Run the water line through the ductwork like a spring.

[dash]

Caveat: OK, My pro membership is because I design AC systems for airplanes , I have never done a 'for hire' residential install .

6 Years ago when I first came onboard here and asked a similar question, Robin (Robotek) assured me that Goodman was not the junk as many others said at the time, so I bought and installed a goodman (lowest price for me not being an authorized dealer at any of the majors) at both son and mom's house, no complaints, both have functined perfectly since then.

That said, the goodman sheet metal did need some beefing up, so if your installer is competent, that person can do that -- e.g the air handler for the son's house install needed a reinforcement bar down the middle, just a piece of emt across the middle.

Think just about every pro here would say it is the competence of the installer these days vs. the brand name.....any disagreements??



Yep, wouldn't install gooman, Infinty is tops,no competition ,when you add zoning. Hearing that the next generation will really separate them from the competition,if there is any.

[smittyii]

zoned or unzoned???

[djp0623]

no zoning

[dash]

The dehumidifierguy will be along soon,dehumidifier,with a cheaper A/c is the best,maybe an "underdog".

[knave]

The dehumidifierguy will be along soon,dehumidifier,with a cheaper A/c is the best,maybe an "underdog".

LOL!!!! Maybe an "underbear" to be more specific!! :yes:

[pstu]

The theme from the dehumidifier pro (TB for Teddy Bear) is consistent: that for the spring/fall periods of wet weather with no AC calls, you need a dehu for lowering home humidity. I am a homeowner who has one of his brands, it really is a fine piece of machinery. But ever since my AC pro diagnosed an iffy install of the TXV, the AC itself has been admirable about lowering humidity. I live in S.Texas where there is lots of summer and most of those with 75F dew point. We do NOT seem to have much of that weather with much outdoor humidity yet no AC calls, even in the spring and fall such days are very transitory and we seldom if ever have a full week of that.

While I am glad to have a dehumidifier, it is most important to have a completely well tuned AC, and certainly I would choose the latter if there was a budget.

As I see it, a very important question is where you live. Do you have the kind of weather TB refers to?

Best of luck -- Pstu

[djp0623]

I live in Huntsville, AL. My 17 yo carrier 12seer feels fine in the summer. Humidity really isn't an issue. I'm sure an Xli15 with visionpro IAQ would be great compared to what I have. Our biggest problem is the winter time. The humidity gets low to the point of itchy skin. I'd rather have a humidifier than a dehumidifier.

I just like the idea of spending less and getting more. It's not my budget, but my mindset. Id rather buy a hyundai genesis than a lexus LS460. Not because I couldn't buy the lexus, but becuase I se no reason to pay a high price when I can get almost he exact same quality and comfort for less.

I hope this clarifies the point of this thread.

[Airmechanical]

The dehumidifierguy will be along soon,dehumidifier,with a cheaper A/c is the best,maybe an "underdog".


LOL!!!! Maybe an "underbear" to be more specific!! :yes:


The theme from the dehumidifier pro (TB for Teddy Bear) is consistent While I am glad to have a dehumidifier, it is most important to have a completely well tuned AC

teddy thinks about dehums in the morning, afternoon, evening, probably dreams about them too!:beat::yes:



.

[badtlc]

Amana ASZ18 2-stage heat pump
Amana AMV80 2-stage 80% NG furnace
communicating versions for both with matching t-stat

You can squeeze a lot of money out of your heating bills with this setup, lifetime warranties, quality built-in diagnostics, and great pricing.

[jramunni]

no zoning

someone please smack this guy...:beat:

[shortly]

[QUOTE=djp0623;8425331]...Our biggest problem is the winter time. The humidity gets low to the point of itchy skin...

Uncomfortably low indoor humidity is an indication of excessive outdoor air infiltration. Before looking at a new system, tighten up the building envelope. Reducing heat gain or (loss) makes for more comfortable conditions as well as reducing the energy required to heat and cool your indoor space.

Have a reputable contractor perform a blower door test to help locate air leaks. You'll probably be surprised at where and how much air is leaking into your conditioned space. Caulk, can-o-foam, gasket & seal, etc., until you think all the leaks are stopped then repeat the blower door test. Fix the leaks you missed the first time and do the blower door test again. The measured amount of infiltration (now much smaller than originally) will be very helpful in properly sizing your new system. It'll likely be smaller than your current system.

Pay particular attention to duct design and installation in your investigation. A significant number of duct systems are undersized, overly restricted and leaky. That's when they're new - they don't improve with age.

Add insulation where feasible only after taking care of air leaks. A well-insulated wind tunnel is still difficult to heat and cool.

There's a wealth of information at buildingscience.com. I have no connection, financial or otherwise, to the site or the company it represents.

[djp0623]

someone please smack this guy...:beat:

If it makes you feel better, I actually want a 3 zone system. Tehinstaller thinks that my zones will be too small. This is just one installer. I have not given up on the zone system.

[djp0623]

[QUOTE=djp0623;8425331]...Our biggest problem is the winter time. The humidity gets low to the point of itchy skin...

Uncomfortably low indoor humidity is an indication of excessive outdoor air infiltration. Before looking at a new system, tighten up the building envelope. Reducing heat gain or (loss) makes for more comfortable conditions as well as reducing the energy required to heat and cool your indoor space.

Have a reputable contractor perform a blower door test to help locate air leaks. You'll probably be surprised at where and how much air is leaking into your conditioned space. Caulk, can-o-foam, gasket & seal, etc., until you think all the leaks are stopped then repeat the blower door test. Fix the leaks you missed the first time and do the blower door test again. The measured amount of infiltration (now much smaller than originally) will be very helpful in properly sizing your new system. It'll likely be smaller than your current system.

Pay particular attention to duct design and installation in your investigation. A significant number of duct systems are undersized, overly restricted and leaky. That's when they're new - they don't improve with age.

Add insulation where feasible only after taking care of air leaks. A well-insulated wind tunnel is still difficult to heat and cool.

There's a wealth of information at buildingscience.com. I have no connection, financial or otherwise, to the site or the company it represents.

This is a very good point. I just spent some of my HVAC fund installing new insulation and replacing all of my exterior doors. They were leaking like crazy. I've already noticed a huge increase in comfort. I thought it would be pointless to replace the hvac before sealing the house. It will be interesting to see if the dryness is less this year. I had not put those two together.

[djp0623]

Come on people. I know there are a lot of pros on here. What would you do if you were installing in your own home? I know you wouldn't get ripped off. You would spend your money wisely. Enlighten me!

[Airmechanical]

Come on people. I know there are a lot of pros on here. What would you do if you were installing in your own home? I know you wouldn't get ripped off. You would spend your money wisely. Enlighten me!

for a location like miami florida i would go with a Trane 20i/heat pump and not worry about it for 15 years with the new parts and labor warranty, the heat pump part is a tad overkill, but last winter in Miami, people got CRAZY lightbills

for something like here in Tennessee, a 2 speed GEO waterfurnace sized enough to keep 70 degree indoor temps at temps anywhere between 0 an 100 degree outdoor temp



.

[djp0623]

for a location like miami florida i would go with a Trane 20i/heat pump and not worry about it for 15 years with the new parts and labor warranty, the heat pump part is a tad overkill, but last winter in Miami, people got CRAZY lightbills

for something like here in Tennessee, a 2 speed GEO waterfurnace sized enough to keep 70 degree indoor temps at temps anywhere between 0 an 100 degree outdoor temp



.

What if you were in an area of tennessee that was sitting on rock or liemstone. This is my situation in northern AL

[Airmechanical]

What if you were in an area of tennessee that was sitting on rock or liemstone. This is my situation in northern AL

i would do what i did here at my house

oversize the ductwork and system, i have an american standard 18 seer 4 ton 2 speed system

2000 square feet 4 ton system, it's about a ton oversized

my heat pump keeps 72 degrees indoor temp all the way down to 15 degrees outdoor temp without backup heat

anything under that the heat strips are needed

obviously the heat strips work on the defrost cycle but stay off 85-95% of the winter depending how bad the winter was

the kicker is, in the summer, 10 degree recoveries no problem

some critics would say humidity issues, but it's a 2 speed when it gets within 2 degrees it kicks into 50% low speed and starts dehumidifying



.

[djp0623]

i would do what i did here at my house

oversize the ductwork and system, i have an american standard 18 seer 4 ton 2 speed system

2000 square feet 4 ton system, it's about a ton oversized

my heat pump keeps 72 degrees indoor temp all the way down to 15 degrees outdoor temp without backup heat

anything under that the heat strips are needed

obviously the heat strips work on the defrost cycle but stay off 85-95% of the winter depending how bad the winter was

the kicker is, in the summer, 10 degree recoveries no problem

some critics would say humidity issues, but it's a 2 speed when it gets within 2 degrees it kicks into 50% low speed and starts dehumidifying



.

Would you explain what this means: "the kicker is, in the summer, 10 degree recoveries no problem.

Next. How would I tell an installer that this is what I wanted to do? Obviously they would have to be very knowledgeable. I take it you oversize the ductwork to decrease the velocity, or take up the extra capacity of the 1 ton oversize???

Is this energy efficient?

[Special Ed]

I wouldn't install anything that's more efficient than 16SEER because, to me, it would be too cost prohibitive, it'll last just as long as the less efficient models & it wouldn't have paid for itself by the time it would need to be to replaced.

No, I'd go w/the Amana communicating system. Sure, it's not as nice as the Carrier Infinity system but it is just as efficient & it's not over-engineered so that it then becomes overkill price wise. As a side note, why would the HO even care if a system is communicating or not? They might care if it somehow magically increases your comfort or if it better controls the humidity but the only reason I like them is because they're easier to install, diagnose & service. If a legacy-type 2-stage system is installed it would do the same thing as the communicating one if it had the right dehum 'stat installed & is correctly set-up.

Am I believer in zoning? No, not really, because the same tonnage used to cool the entire house is also used to cool just that one, tiny zone. Zoning does NOT make a system more efficient but it will keep the HO more comfortable. My question is, instead of zoning, why not install another separate system? That said, I hear zoning - if done right - could be a good thing. But I have yet to see it done right.

Of course, any system is only as good as the ductwork it's attached to & the install team that installed it. If I were to install a system in my home I'd also replace the entire duct system taking care to properly design & install it. Along w/the ductwork I suppose I would also add some IAQ to my system, something like a UV light &/or a good, quality filtration system.

I wouldn't worry too much about the warranties, because if a system properly installed is going to fail due to some factory defect it's gonna do it most likely in that first year. Besides that, why would anyone in their right mind want a system to last a "lifetime"? A lifetime could be a very long time & a system installed today would more than likely be obsolete & not near as efficient as a system made even 5 years from now.

If I were to sum it up for ya, I guess I'd say you'd be throwing your money away if you bought anything more than a 16SEER.

[teddy bear]

You do not need a dehumidifier in FL anymore. I have been here for a month with only a only a few days of high outdoor dew points. The weather has been fantastic, moderate temps and breezy. More like Northern Arizona. Very disappointing!
Certainly a slightly over-sized simple high SEER a/c in FL setup to dehumidify during moderate/high cooling loads. A small ventilating whole house dehumidifier is the icing on the cake. This will allow turning off the a/c when the home unoccupied while the dehu keeps the home dry. Also extra cooling capacity for rapid cool down and extra visitors. The dehu will provide fresh air when occuppied during calm weather while maintaining <50%RH regardless the cooling load. This is working well on several homes here in SW FL.
Looking for more humid, wet, weather soon.
Regards TB

[Airmechanical]

Would you explain what this means: "the kicker is, in the summer, 10 degree recoveries no problem.
this simply means my oversized system will recover a whole heck of a lot faster, you could not do this with a single speed system without humidity problems

Next. How would I tell an installer that this is what I wanted to do? Obviously they would have to be very knowledgeable
this was my custom system, how you do your system and who you get to do it is up to your common sense

I take it you oversize the ductwork to decrease the velocity, or take up the extra capacity of the 1 ton oversize???
the ductwork needs to be adequate for the size system you are gonna use

Is this energy efficient?
yes with the right setup/control it's energy efficient with the extra umph when needed for those harsh days of hot or cold

remember this was my system, i don't sell systems setup like mine

and its not something i am recommending anyone experiment with

because mistakes at that level get very costly



.

[Airmechanical]

You do not need a dehumidifier

hold on stop the presses, alert the media, the following message is a special news report

TEDDY SAY YOU DO NOT NEED A DEHUMIDIFIER

this must be a dream:cliff::cheers: whoooo deeee whooo



.

[SBKold]

remember this was my system, i don't sell systems setup like mine

and its not something i am recommending anyone experiment with

because mistakes at that level get very costly



.

Your idea works especially well because 1st stage is a true 50% which is basically a 2ton unit at that point.

No other 2stage units on the market now go down to 50%.

A 4 ton would be a 2.75 ton in Low stage if was Carrier, Amana, 16i, etc.....

[djp0623]

Airmechanical: you got me all excited, and then told me it is a unicorn. This is the type of thing I am looking for.

I'll bring it up with installers that I interview. If they run with it and know what they are talking about, then I see it as an option. If they shy away, then I won't push it.

[Mr Bill]

hold on stop the presses, alert the media, the following message is a special news report

TEDDY SAY YOU DO NOT NEED A DEHUMIDIFIER

this must be a dream:cliff::cheers: whoooo deeee whooo



.

Hey I would not pick on him to much, there are some here that are a TB when it comes to equipment, and if I have to spell it out for you, you don't need to know. :LOL:

[djp0623]

Your idea works especially well because 1st stage is a true 50% which is basically a 2ton unit at that point.

No other 2stage units on the market now go down to 50%.

A 4 ton would be a 2.75 ton in Low stage if was Carrier, Amana, 16i, etc.....

What brands currently go to 50% on single stage? This was an important factor in my consideration of a duel stage system.

[SBKold]

What brands currently go to 50% on single stage? This was an important factor in my consideration of a duel stage system.

Only the Trane/Am Std dual compressor models.

The Nordyne inverter products modulate below 50% --- They are neat products but then again I would know I may be working it more than occasionally.

[Airmechanical]

follow up on my setup;

i installed this system 6 years ago at my house here in tennessee, the communicating 20i or 19i was not available

if i was gonna do it for myself again with the equipment available nowi, it would be with a Trane 20i, which is 50% on low speed

and that 20i uses the 900 series comm stat, just so happens to be the best communicating controller on the market

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No other 2stage units on the market now go down to 50%.

rheem uses 50% for low speed on there communicating systems

as well as older rheem non communicating 2 speed systems

.

[SBKold]

rheem uses 50% for low speed on there communicating systems

as well as older rheem non communicating 2 speed systems

.

Rheem has dual compressor setup available? I was unaware

And you are talking those "coffin" units of the past with a fan on either side and compressors in middle?

[Airmechanical]

Rheem has dual compressor setup available? I was unaware

And you are talking those "coffin" units of the past with a fan on either side and compressors in middle?

negative, thats 1985 equipment your talking about, and those residential units had 2 fans, but only one compressor

in the past 5 years rheem made 2 styles of residential 2 speeds systems

1. an unloading compressor, which they did not like
2. dual compressors, which they like, and have stayed with for the past 2 years

for what it's worth, i have installed, wired a bunch of the new communicating rheem systems

"the rheem" communicating would probably be my third favorite choice of communicating systems, Trane being 1 and Carrier being 2



.

[teddy bear]

hold on stop the presses, alert the media, the following message is a special news report

TEDDY SAY YOU DO NOT NEED A DEHUMIDIFIER

this must be a dream:cliff::cheers: whoooo deeee whooo



.

Not to get too excited! I should have said there are too many days when you do not need a dehumidifier. I am attaching a typical week in FL this fall. Wet for a couple days and dry the rest of the week. You can not grow mold with this kind of weather.
I have been pulling out 9 gal. of moisture a day from my home on a different test that does not deal with %RH as we know it.
I will keep you post when we get some real humidity.
Thanks for the cover from a couple of you guys.
Regards TB

[jkish]

Hearing that the next generation will really separate them from the competition,if there is any.

Any details on this? Timeframe?

[djp0623]

Any details on this? Timeframe?

I'm curious as well

[SBKold]

negative, thats 1985 equipment your talking about, and those residential units had 2 fans, but only one compressor

in the past 5 years rheem made 2 styles of residential 2 speeds systems

1. an unloading compressor, which they did not like
2. dual compressors, which they like, and have stayed with for the past 2 years

for what it's worth, i have installed, wired a bunch of the new communicating rheem systems

"the rheem" communicating would probably be my third favorite choice of communicating systems, Trane being 1 and Carrier being 2



.

So there is a dual compressor Rheem communicating heat pump?

Is there anything dumb like those stacked indoor coils on larger sizes?

Also about those 1985 coffin style rheems....some sizes had 2 compressors.

[Airmechanical]

So there is a dual compressor Rheem communicating heat pump?
yes, i have installed them myself, 50% low speed

Is there anything dumb like those stacked indoor coils on larger sizes
the dumb things are mostly gone, the ECM fixxed the low airflow/static problems rheem has had with the W coil for 15 years

Also about those 1985 coffin style rheems....some sizes had 2 compressors
we will agree to disagree on that on.



.

[dash]

hold on stop the presses, alert the media, the following message is a special news report

TEDDY SAY YOU DO NOT NEED A DEHUMIDIFIER

this must be a dream:cliff::cheers: whoooo deeee whooo



.

Give TB a break,there are some here that are a lot worse about a lot of things, if I have to spell it out, you haven't been attacked yet.

[knave]

Give TB a break,there are some here that are a lot worse about a lot of things, if I have to spell it out, you haven't been attacked yet.

I took the post about TB as a piece of humor.

I think TB has a very good point/mission on here!!!! Especially here in WI.
Where we have humid summers, with mild temps.

Just my two centavos!!!!!!! Happy Thanksgiving!!!:ghug:

[teddy bear]

Not to get too excited! I should have said there are too many days when you do not need a dehumidifier. I am attaching a typical week in FL this fall. Wet for a couple days and dry the rest of the week. You can not grow mold with this kind of weather.
I have been pulling out 9 gal. of moisture a day from my home on a different test that does not deal with %RH as we know it.
I will keep you post when we get some real humidity.
Thanks for the cover from a couple of you guys.
Regards TB
I am getting old. I forgot to attach the data sheet for this weeks weather data. The point is that you get all kinds of weather all over the US. Sometimes you are convience it will never rain again. Othertimes, you think it will never stop raining. Best be prepared for both because they are inevitable.
Regards TB