Network 8000

[shipwreck]

I have a building that has a Barber Coleman network 8000 controllering their equipment. I know that Invenysis is now Barber Coleman but what I am looking for is any info on this system so I can determine how the heating and cooling setpoints are configured for 2 air handlers with 30 dump boxes. The network 8000 is the one with the key pad on it and I do have a password to get in,but I don't know how far I get in. The system has perimeter hot water heating and uses the 2 air handlers for a/c and hot water coils for tempering fresh air. Any help or info would be appreciated. The dealer here in town is the only one around and is very hush hush.

[yellowfrog76]

What controller is on the ahu? MZ2,GCS or LCM. depending on which controller used the setpoints can be found.

[shipwreck]

yellowfrog I believe the controller is the microzone 2's

[Control Man]

The controller with the KEYPAD is a GCM , networked to theMZII's ( MZII's do not have keypads ).

You may have an access code / password but depending on what level access was assigned you might not be able to do anything other than view current status.

[shipwreck]

Your right Control Man, I've got level 6 only out of 14 I guess. The main controller is a GCM-84211-1-0-1 and the software version is 5.3A. There is 2 microzones MZ2A-105-0-1-1 and 2 Siebe micronet integrators to ASD bus MN-ASD1. Any info on how to walk through these would be appreciated. There is a 25pin hook up for a laptop but I would imagine that the dispaly is good enough. Is there a master code that I could get a hold of to give me higher access? My email address is XXXXXX if anybody has any info that could be useful. Thanks ahead of time for any help.

[Edited by lusker on 01-15-2005 at 12:36 PM]

[Control Man]

The DISPLAY will only show what is in the GCM , you need PSI software to access the MZII's

Depending on how or who did the programming things can vary.

Many use the MZII's as dumb devices , do the programming in the GCM and pass the info over to the MZII's other do the programming in the MZII's and use the GCM for common programming /networking this was the way it was suppose to be used as a STAND ALONE if GCM failed.

The CABLE is used for hooking into LAPTOP / PSI or for HOST ( older system ) SIGNAL graphical frontend.

[shipwreck]

So Control man what you are saying is that I can't help the customer because the control company is married to them aka I'm screwed. Thanks for your help anyways. Next time I guess in the installation the customer should ask for the passwords, training, software, and manuals in the deal.

[Control Man]

Customer is ENTITLED to all of that , they PAID for the SYSTEM all that it includes not just the USE OF IT.

There is too much of this "IT IS OUR SYSTEM " mentality by the control companies / reps the customer owns it not the contractor.

They should have recieved a full set of MANUALS , a complete copy of the ORIGINAL PROGRAM , Training along with HI LEVEL ACCESS for their own use.

Things are just going to get worse for INVENSYS in Ontario after a recent purchase by DIRECT ENERGY , if you take INVENSYS way of doing things and add DIRECTS hollyier than god attitude.

As for your customer they should be able to get everything they are entitled to.

There are contractors who work on NETWORK 8000 that are available to do service / programming and work with the customer and HVAC contractors, we are just hard to find.

[habs]

I don't know about holier than god but we try! We bought the Invensys dealer in T.O but we can't sell the stuff in my area because of the London dealer who is giving Invensys a horrible name. There is a huge problem with controls companies not providing the software and the training to the customers. The last job we quoted,(and lost to invensys dealer) called for 30 hours of training for the on site guys by the installers. The engineers have to be very specific in the spec for these jobs and then there will be less problems. You are right our controls department has some issues.

[Control Man]

You bought Toronto , Kingston , Montreal , Ottawa . INVENSYS , ALERTON , ANDOVER + wholesale parts sales div.in 1 deal and got NOVAR in another deal.

Rep in London use to do good work did some schoolboard work with them years back.

[habs]

Has not done me one bit of good in Windsor yet but we will see.

[incontrol]

SHip: what exactly is the problem you are having? The heating/ cooling setpoints on an ahu can vary. The setpoint can be reset by demand, oa temp, warmup, etc. This is probably programmed in the MZ not usually in the GCM. Usually I am in the MZ and see a value being sent from the GCM, may be difficult to work backwards and see numbers going from the GCM to the MZ. You can get a password for a single day by calling Invensys.

888-444-1311

[Control Man]

You should have ZONE2 blocks in your GCM for each MZII you can see what is being sent from the GCM to the MZII.

In the MZII you should have EMS:1: for point value passing as well as WINDO: : for viewing info from the GCM

[acddc]

Control Man can we correspond in E-Mail?

control_guy@hotmail.com

Thanks

Allen

[hvacker]

B/C systems were first designed and built by American Auto Matrix and they incorporated a backdoor password that was kept in the newer systems. I think Network 8000 had this access even after they went their own ways. It's System AAM. While it's also possible to erase this also as I remember pulling the battery backup restored it. Maybe someone out there can tell me as it's been awhile.

[incontrol]

Nope. Tried it on a 84 GCM and it wouldn't work.

[hvt]

You bought Toronto , Kingston , Montreal , Ottawa . INVENSYS , ALERTON , ANDOVER + wholesale parts sales div.in 1 deal and got NOVAR in another deal.

Give direct energy some time and their true colours will show through... and then what...

[habs]

HVT
I have been here ay debs for 2.5 years now and heard the warnings when I started but have not seen the bad side yet. I am not near Ottawa but am interested to know what the problems are there.

The london invensys guy is almost done and I am impressed with his work. The invensys stuff looks pretty nice.

[sysint]

You guys are talking the old Enbridge?
What is going on with the Direct Energy buyouts?
I wonder if these buyouts have anything to do with the Ontario commission that is mandating AMR systems.

[habs]

What is amr? Direct energy is trying to buy market share in hvac and lately in controls in Ontario. They also bought a company in Ohio and are trying to expand into the states big time. I have been there a short time but I really like it, we have our problems like any other company but over allthey treat us very fair and pay very well. We are ua but direct has additional pension and stock buy plans that are very nice.

[sysint]

Automated Meter Reading

[Control Man]

Biggest beef with DIRECT from most customers is POOR SERVICE especially on equipment leased from them.

Have 2 customers who have leased BURNERS on their boilers , had problems and response was non exsistent , I fixed 1 for them and the other required an ELASTIC BAND to correct electrode shorting out until DIRECT ARRIVED 2 weeks later.

Also had customers who ended up with DIRECT do to NATIONAL ACCOUNTS that they knew nothing about or had no input in the tender process although they had problems with poor service in the past.

In the recent CONTROLS buy up there are some GRAY areas they picked up a few additional product lines INVENSYS , ANDOVER , ALERTON when they bought a large controls contractor along with NOVAR when they purchased a small mech / controls outfit. They have lost a few of the experienced people and are hiring junior techs but charging BIG $.

The new utility metering IDEAS for Ontario are still in the planning stages and will most likely be operated by the LOCAL HYDRO utilities that are now trying to be self sufficent ( thats why we are being charge outragous $ for electricity surcharges )

[Edited by Control Man on 02-07-2005 at 09:52 AM]

[habs]

I did not know we leased burners. Our branch has grown huge in the last few years from I think 5 to 13 guys, we haven't lost a guy since I started. We do have some branch of our company under the DEBS name that is supposed to be doing only boiler work and are trying to do other stuff and they are really pissing us off, they may be the problem. Our side only does service and they are supposed to be giving the branches the controls training so we can do them also. The customers in our region get service within hours of the call being placed, my customers call me direct on my cell. Some of our contracts have it written in, four hour response time or pay a penalty. We do have some issues like any other company but over all I think we do a pretty good job.

[hvt]

my problem with direct energy is in the "big fat company" area, they try to push out the smaller companies and end pissing off their customers with things like central call centres that the customers are supposed to call for "service" and then are asked for their account number, very impersonal service.

[slyguy]

It would seem that everyone is beating up on Direct Energy. I moved back to the Windsor area a few years ago from Toronto and in the last couple years I have switched all the outside contractors my company were using. I have used Direct Energy for the last couple years. I have gotten great service respons and knowledge from them. They have always been there to help with not only trouble shooting and repairs but also design. I only deal with the commercial side of things however I can't speak for any of the other divisions. Here in Windsor I wouldn't recommend any one else for HVAC work. Just my 2 cents.

[blackdoggie]

Shipwreck, I forgot that I have a friend in the area that could give you a hand with the Siebe controls. If you would like his information please contact via e-mail. My address is in my profile.

[wfbs]

Shipwreck:
If the origional pass word from the factory has not been press enter. Then in user name type in USER Press enter again and as the password type in PASS. Ther is also another way into the system it uses the manufactured date and some other things. Been a while and forgot some stuff. If you do get in be careful you will be in Level 14 the highest level and can do damage!

[joeatcs&e]

To all that work with the GCM's, there is a backdoor way in that will give you the level 14 access you are looking for, but for fear of the reprimands I would get for giving it out on a forum such as this, I don't think I will post it. As far as the old USER/PASS access, when I worked for Invensys, we always left this in, but bumped it down to about a level 6 access.
I don't recall who mentioned the holier then thou syndrome, but I agree with you. I alway give our customers multiple levels of access, including the upper most level. The thing most techs seem to be afraid of is the customer being stupid, well, I can agree some of the time, but I give training on all of my sites and I give the high access to the boss and then work my way down from there. Our company has been in business for 50 years and I don't suppose we'll be going anywere any time soon, but I want our customer to have the information they need to do what they want with THEIR equipment. I was P*$$ed when I had an alarm installed in my car and I ended up having to go the alarm's website to download an instruction manual on how to change the features. I've taken that mentality into the field with me and I've had a lot of happy customers who call back when the need help or upgrades or new controls. I think a lot of techs forget we're in the CUSTOMER SERVICE field.

[fat eddy]

Hey I got news for ya, Network 8000 has no security in any of it's devices, all of them can have any level access you want if you figure it out, it's right in front of ya.I can walk up to any device and gain access in seconds, at any level. Do you know how to do this ?

[incontrol]

It's OK in this forum of techs. The problem is when the custodian, principal, or manager gets in and changes the static setpoint to 72 and the warmup to ON. Shoot

[fat eddy]

I'm not going to tell anyone how,and I am not talkiing about the time date stuff for GCM's ,,,,, there is also easier ways than that. Ecspecially at the device level.

[joeatcs&e]

Al right Fat Eddie, you've got me, I only know the date stamp pass, I haven't heard of any other way that is "Back Door." I worked for a company that took over my branch when Invensys sold all the branches off that actually went through the troubles of changing the user/pass in the MZ's and PEM's.
If you really need the back door, e-mail me, still rather not open it up to everyone. Sorry, had it drilled into me and I have trouble going back on that.

[tubomaster]

there is a password for gcm for level 14

[incontrol]

I think you're about a year too late.

[TitleLess]

I can't hust give it out, I was told not to ,, so I can't.

[dexisa]

I don't know anything about the setpoint question but I do know the default user name and password is user/pass this usually gives you level 14 access. I can change the passwords using the PSI software and match it to what ever is programmed in the MZ2 microzone. Try that and see how deep it gets you into the program.

[im_in_control]

fat eddy, if you are talking about the ASD devices like (MZ2, PEM, LIM, FLO2) then I too know how to get the password out of them. Like you said its actually quite easy.

But as stated above I am not about to give it out on a site like this either...

[TitleLess]

Originally posted by im_in_control
fat eddy, if you are talking about the ASD devices like (MZ2, PEM, LIM, FLO2) then I too know how to get the password out of them. Like you said its actually quite easy.

But as stated above I am not about to give it out on a site like this either...


Right, it is easy and it's right in fron tof ya,but I woudn't intentionally give it out either,

[techgabe]

user=
password=

Example; password for today would be "1826"

NOTE: Please don't give out information like that via this forum!

[Edited by BC1 on 02-16-2006 at 11:45 AM]

[TitleLess]

Originally posted by techgabe
user=bcfld
password=

Example; password for today would be "1826"

Dude that is ridicuous ,, how could you post that here ?

[Edited by TitleLess on 02-15-2006 at 08:19 PM]

[techgabe]

BC1, What's the problem with giving out this backdoor? It's a legacy system that they don't even make parts for? I can understand if it is a system that is still being made and supported, but thats not the case here.

[incontrol]

What so you mean 'password for today'? Is that calculated somehow?

[Control Man]

Just recieved a box of PARTS that are supposedly " NO LONGER MADE " for a system no longer supported

He posted the FORMULA in his earlier post.

[TitleLess]

Parts are available and they still make GCM"s ,,, everyone that needs to know that password does know it.

[Control Man]

I kind of KNOW that they are available and are still produced , also after doing BC since 1988 theres more hidden access codes for NETWORK 8000 and SIGNAL

[im_in_control]

I can't believe he posted that here either. BTW, not only do they still make parts for them, but you can still buy the GCMs. So your mistaken there ...

Hey I got an idea, lets post the factory passwords for all of the control vendors while we are at it ... as TitleLess said "everyone that needs to know the passwords does know it".

[techgabe]

Originally posted by TitleLess
Parts are available and they still make GCM"s ,,, everyone that needs to know that password does know it.

Is there some type of secret club that we don't know about??
If the only thing keeping a customer from leaving you is because you know a "secret password", that's ridiculous.
If anybody wants the the backdoor, just post your email. BTW, I have the backdoor for Signal as well.

[skrewt]

Originally posted by im_in_control
I can't believe he posted that here either. BTW, not only do they still make parts for them, but you can still buy the GCMs. So your mistaken there ...

Hey I got an idea, lets post the factory passwords for all of the control vendors while we are at it ... as TitleLess said "everyone that needs to know the passwords does know it".




Personally, I think you should post all backdoor passwords, that way the manufacturer will stop putting them in.
I personally would never recommend anyone install a control system that has a backdoor around the security.

[TitleLess]

Originally posted by techgabe

Originally posted by TitleLess
Parts are available and they still make GCM"s ,,, everyone that needs to know that password does know it.

Is there some type of secret club that we don't know about??
If the only thing keeping a customer from leaving you is because you know a "secret password", that's ridiculous.
If anybody wants the the backdoor, just post your email. BTW, I have the backdoor for Signal as well.

These are utilities for emergency use, anyone else that needs access will already have a password.

[skrewt]

They are simply holes in security.
The programmers should not put them in to make the techs life easier.
The installer should give the customer high level access and let him decide who gets into his system.
Too many controls contractors try to keep this stuff under their control when the system doesn't belong to them.

[Control Man]

Should have seen the pile of SECURITY / ACCESS GLITCHES when the NETWORK 8000 was in beta testing, about as secure as a screen door. Prior to that when it was NETWORK SUPERVISOR they went through the same stuff but did not learn from it.

[ddcfan]

Originally posted by TitleLess

These are utilities for emergency use, anyone else that needs access will already have a password.

This thread cracks me up....This is exactly why proprietary systems are no longer incouraged...The secret club that locks you into their systems..OH.. my ...the backdoor was posted...It's for emergeny use..You Trane guys now what I'm talking about...If an MP580 is secured and you don't know the password to access via screen... what do you do?? Well I'll tell you..You call Tech support and give them the error code (####) and they will tell you how to get in...On a BCU it's a rolling password accessible thru Telnet...(oops, I shouldn't even be mentioning that)I once called an allerton rep and asked him for the general password thats given at start up (because I didn't want or felt like looking it up in binder of info)...He wanted a P.O for 8 Hrs. to come out and help me out.. Right... It took me an additional 30 min. and I was in.. Do I feel any sympathies... heck no.. This forums are to share knowledge and experiences...But wait what you are saying is...Don't share what is going to keep a P.O for 8hrs to do something that takes 2 secs. to do. BECUASE IT"S AN EMERGENCY>>> If a customer is given highest access and forgets password.. what are you worried about if you give them an alternate password with high access...This access points are being discouraged in new systems... what do you think happens on Telnet scans and access vulnerabilities on ethernet systems...

Anyway if a customer needs high access one of two things are going to happen...
1- If there is a problem with configuration or programming after access they are going to have to call for help..most likely
2- If they screw it up after access they are going to have to call for help..

Win...win...But the mentallity of "We are the only ones privy to it" thats the problem

TitleLess and others...If you are a rep of Invensys..Trane..Johnson..ect..It won't be long before YOU become totally dependent of Intergrators..
or die a slow death being a single (sole) source control tech...

CAN YOU IMAGINE IF THIS WAS THE MENTALLITY BEHIND THE ERROR CODES IN VEHICLES...Food for thought..

[TitleLess]

Yeah I can see it now , Invensys, Honeywell, and Johnson all fall to whatever conrtol brand it is you are selling,,,


You're funny though and you do sound sincere,,, Kudos/

[ddcfan]

You know what the irony in your statement is...

That I don't sell ANY brand at all...

As far as me sounding sincere...Thats because I am...

Your customers will like you more for job well done VS. trying to lock them in...

I prefer to buy a Chiltons or a diagnostic tool when the "Check Engine" Light come on..instead of depending on the car dealership to tell me my oxygen sensor needs replacement for $750...When I can replace it for $89..
By the way my car still runs great..

[Control Man]

I give the CUSTOMER AKA : THE PEOPLE WHO BOUGHT / PAID for the EQUIPMENT / SOFTWARE the access they WANT , some want full blown , others do not , they sign a form based on what they requested , also notes that FULL ACCESS is available when they require / request it.

I hate to hear a salesman / programmer /tech tell the customer that it's their PANELS ( the control companies )

[TitleLess]

ere is a scenario t at I ave ran into more t an once,

I'm at a factory, and t e ead maintenance guy senses some c anges coming ( e's getting fired ) e eliminates all of t e passwords from t e system except for is, e t en leaves, We get a call t at no one can get into t e system no one is familiar wit it. We go out punc in t e backdoor password and set up t eir password structure,,

If t ere were no backdoor password w at do we do ? T row out t e controller and sell t em a new one ?

[Control Man]

Your H not working ?

Theres away around the EVERYTHINGS changed problem

[incontrol]

I have some microzones that has a password and the tech quit and now we can't get in. Will someone please post/repost how to get access?

[Control Man]

Do you have PSI software ?

[TitleLess]

just pull the file and edit it off line, the password willbe there,

[im_in_control]

Ya its kinda funny how simple they made it ... I gather it was an oversight ...

Just "get" the file then you can edit if offline and change it to the password you want or add the users you want after that ... YOu may have to add the new user and password to your PSI Setup ....

[TitleLess]

Well considering that you can buy Eclypse Problock and get a free universal password for the devices becuase they can't figure out a password structure that works, I think it is not giving away too much here to tell you that getting the file from a device level controller and editing it offline is how you get the passwords that are in it,, I am sure that most people in the control biz are aware of that one.

[incontrol]

Thanks Title. I forgot about that. Kinda like doing a report in Signal.

[boardsmoker]

user=
password=

Example; password for today would be "1826"

NOTE: Please don't give out information like that via this forum!

[Edited by BC1 on 02-16-2006 at 11:45 AM]
I have worked with network 8000 and know a lot of the tricks, but I have a issue I need some help with. I have a customer that just bought a used Siebe 86120 GCM. I've been asked to replace his dead one with this used unit. I connected to it with XPSI in terminal mode only to find that the default user name and password have been changed. I contacted the seller to see if they had the user name and password and they did not. I tried the BC back door to no avail. Does anybody know the back door user name and password for a siebe 86120 GCM? If so please email me. Thanks, Boardsmoker. Never mind I forgot about the zero thing. I'm in.

[Mass]

Looking for a controls technician to perform regular scheduled PM (sub-contract) on Siebe with MSC, MPC controllers in Toronto.

[LCSO-ITGuy]

We have Signal Ver. 4.4.1 running Win98. I'm have moved the system to a newer platform (VMware) but I'm having problem's with the security device that should be installed on the parallel port (the server has no parallel port). I keep getting the message that the software has not been enabled. Is there a way around that?

[hrk]

I have a question regarding MZII/PSI in the NW8000 family and hope someone from this forum would be able to help me with this.

I am having trouble talking to MZII controller when directly connected from my Windows 7 64-bit PC.

I am using a standard RJ11 to RS232 converter and took the other end of RS232 to a RS232 to USB serial converter connected to my PC's USB port (COM6).

Now, I launched the MZII PSI software and entered the credentials. It says not connected. After reading several highly useful posts in this forum I understand that, PSI should be able to detect the MZII device with out actually having to enter the device address. Inspite of entering the device address, PSI is unable to find the device and asks me Retry or Quit? Generate node list doesn't help either. Can someone please help me with this?

Also, I was wondering if there is a way to troubleshoot why 2 MZII's won't communicate in a network of 12 MZII controllers ASD bus? What would be the best way to go about that?

Any inputs would be highly appreciated.

[txjarhead]

Is it possible to copy/clone a GCM and drop it in another gcm , then just rename and reset IP?

[rocketz]

Is there some type of secret club that we don't know about??
If the only thing keeping a customer from leaving you is because you know a "secret password", that's ridiculous.
If anybody wants the the backdoor, just post your email. BTW, I have the backdoor for Signal as well.

Hi techgabe,

can you send me the GCM/LCM backdoor access. My email is in my profile.
Thanks in advance.

[Dad]

Carlos

8 post on this forum all 8 are identical.

Consider this your only warning. You created spam. The next event you will be removed as a spammer.


-Dad

Yes.. I realize you guys can't see it as I removed them all.