Trane XR 11 Defrost board

[heatpumpowner]

All,

I had a Trane XR 11 heat pump installed with the matching air handler. For the second time in two weeks I noticed no heat coming from the vents. I checked the air handler and found the Freon line had snow all over it and the coils in the air handler and the compressor outside were iced over. The first time this happened my installer came out and replaced the defrost board.

Does anyone suspect there is a problem with some other component than the defrost board. I doubt the new defrost board failed as well.

Thanks for your input

PS - I will never own another Trane again. I should have went with the Goodman and saved a couple of hundred bucks.

[md master]

Are you operating in cooling or heating?

[jacob perkins]

Originally posted by md master
Are you operating in cooling or heating?

1)If the outdoor unit is frosted,the system is operating in the ________ mode.

A.Heating
B.Cooling
C.Both A.and B.
D.Neither A.nor B.

[swat]

Well since he is wanting heat then it should be in heating mode but since it is frosting up inside and out then it sounds like the unit is running in cooling mode. Sounds like an installation error. Unfortunately I can't tell for sure from here but I would let the service or installation manager know of the company who did the install. More than likely the equipment is not defective but the wiring may be. Heat pumps are considered more complicated than most systems out there and there are quite a few, but definitely not all, installers that don't exactly understand how to wire the system up. Especially if they do not install heat pumps every single day. Most likely your problem is simple and you will be happy with your equipment selection.

Out of curiousity why did you go with the 11 seer equipment? Was cost an issue? I am just curious because in almost exactly one year the 12 and below units will be outlawed for sale but not for service because of energy codes and regulations. Like I said I am not knocking you or any one I am just curious. Marketing and stuff you know :)

[seabreeze]

I know you didn't ask me but if I may I can tell you that I went with the XR-11 because I was given the impression that it was a 11.5 seer (from both the Trane promotional materials and the sales rep). I was told that the difference between 11.5 and 13 seer was negligible. That was before I got educated by this site and had I known the XR-11 was really a 10.0 seer or less I probably would have gone with a 13.0 seer Carrier for a few hundred bucks more. Another factor was the 10 year parts and labor warranty from Trane that was thrown in to sweeten the deal. But again had I known then what I know today I would have thought twice about the XR-11.

[BaldLoonie]

)If the outdoor unit is frosted,

But it weren't :(

Obviously in cooling mode for some reason. I'm with swat, probably something wired wrong energizing 0 when it shouldn't be.

[HVAC Pro]

Originally posted by heatpumpowner
I checked the air handler and found the Freon line had snow all over it and the coils in the air handler and the compressor outside were iced over.

The system IS operating in the cooling cycle. Do you have the thermostat set for heating or cooling? I'm assuming nothing here since our weather is currently about 40° above normal. If you are set in the heating cycle, there is likely a control wiring problem. If you are in the cooling cycle, there could be an air flow problem, low outdoor ambient temperature, control problem, refrigerant or other problems. Sounds like it's time to call and calmly request the firms most experienced tech.

[heatpumpowner]

All

Thank you for your comments. The unit is in the heating mode when the frosting occurs. It happened again this morning. It gets to the point that I can know it is going to happen. I can touch the freon line and it is cold (while in the heat mode). The installer is coming today.

I went with the 11 seer because I am only going to be in the house another 2 - 3 years. I could not see spending the extra money. But great warranty for the next home owner.

[airredlands]

tech replaced the defrost board, but did he replace the sensor?

[airconman]

Before you got educated on this site.... lets examine that.... Its illegal for anyone to install something less than 10 SEER. The 2 TWR XR 11 is from 10 to 13 SEER for your information.
Example a 2TWR1024A1 + BAYKSKT and TWE036C14 + TAYTXV-3 IS 11 SEER.

The lowest I can find on the R410 series is 11.5 SEER so what have you learned? You got screwed ? Give us the model number of ALL you components and we'll tell you how much you got screwed.
With heat pumps you have approximately Nine wires in the outside unit not including outdoor stat. You have a furnace with a Tayplus 103 and poof you have 9 wires from heat pump 4 to 5 wires from furnace, 9 from thermostat... and thats not figuring the charge or anything is right on the unit. Possible the contractor made a mistake somewhere on the wiring. Possible its not defrosting right. But I sell Goodman and Trane and others and I will tell you right now that I spend half on Goodman for the same stuff I pay twice as much for for Trane products.... Its not apples to apples I deal with them both every day. Fix your problem with your dealer. Thats all you need to do. Less than 10 SEER? Thats Crap!!!

[seabreeze]

2TWR1036A1 and TWE036C14. I don't have a TXV or Baykskt. My reading of ARI indicates 10 seer and 6.95 hspf. When I stated "or less" in my prior thread I was referring to less than ideal external factors that could lower the seer below 10. Am I wrong that different factors can increase or decrease the stated seer ?

[jacob perkins]

Originally posted by BaldLoonie

)If the outdoor unit is frosted,

But it weren't :(

Obviously in cooling mode for some reason. I'm with swat, probably something wired wrong energizing 0 when it shouldn't be.

Okay you win the prize

(I thought he said both coils were frosted-was waiting for an answer for that!)

[justwarmingup]

could the reversing valve be sticking after unit goes thru defrost cycle?

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

Originally posted by heatpumpowner

PS - I will never own another Trane again. I should have went with the Goodman and saved a couple of hundred bucks.

I'd be willing to bet it was the install and not the equipment.
Don't be so quick to bash.

[heatpumpowner]

Update on the frosting coils and compressor.

Ok here we go:

Yes both the outside compressor and the coils in the air handler are frosting over. I do not have the model #s at hand but I will post them tonight. When the tech replaced the defrost board he did not mention he was replacing the sensor. What does the sensor do?

The tech came out 1/7/05. He determined that the reversing valve was malfunctioning. He then said he was going to have to order the part, and the job could take up to 5 hours to replace.

To summarize, unit installed 12/22/04. I have been on emergency heat for 3 weeks. Techs have been out 4 times. Problem persists. Conclusion, either Trane is the worst product out there, or my techs are the dumbest installers on the planet.

[jacob perkins]

Originally posted by heatpumpowner
Update on the frosting coils and compressor.

Ok here we go:

Yes both the outside compressor and the coils in the air handler are frosting over.

I misread you earlier.Sounds like it is going into defrost and not coming out.

[plain spoken]

Originally posted by heatpumpowner
Update on the frosting coils and compressor.

Ok here we go:

Yes both the outside compressor and the coils in the air handler are frosting over. I do not have the model #s at hand but I will post them tonight. When the tech replaced the defrost board he did not mention he was replacing the sensor. What does the sensor do?

The tech came out 1/7/05. He determined that the reversing valve was malfunctioning. He then said he was going to have to order the part, and the job could take up to 5 hours to replace.

To summarize, unit installed 12/22/04. I have been on emergency heat for 3 weeks. Techs have been out 4 times. Problem persists. Conclusion, either Trane is the worst product out there, or my techs are the dumbest installers on the planet.

Your techs should have found this earlier, so they are some at fault. But since I was not there and did not see what they saw, I can not completely blame them.

As to condeming a manufacturer because you had a problem, that is a little over kill. Any product can have a problem, that is why they have a warranty. The issue is will they stand behind it? Trane is a very good product with a very low failure rate so do not condem them for one failure. Sure we would all wish it never happened but sometimes it does. The part that failed is not made by them and it's failure may be completely out of their control. That same part could have just as easily been shipped to another manufacuter and been put in their unit.

[HVAC Pro]

Very well put plain spoken.The reversing valve is apparently sticking. There are a few things that can cause them to stick, such as incorrect system charge, defective solenoid coil, wiring problem, etc. I'm sure all these things have been ruled out by the technician. RV replacement is a very tedious job. Hopefully the labor and miscellaneous materials will be covered under your labor warranty (which comes from the contractor, not the manufacturer) as it can be a very costly repair. Good luck!

[heatpumpowner]

For the Trane XR 11, here are the model and serial #s

Air Handler model # TWE024C140BO
Outdoor Unit model # 2TWR1024A1000AB

Air Handler Serial # 4423T7N2V
Outdoor Unit serial # 44028104F.

Not sure if this information will benefit anyone, but here it is.

Just for a clear update, the installer does believe the reversing valve is sticking after the unit goes through the defrost cycle. He is coming out 1/17/05 to replace said reversing valve.

All of the labor, parts and anything else is all covered under the warranty. I just don't understand why the installer is unable to fix the problem. Everytime he comes out it costs him money.

One question, should it take 5 hours for one person to replace the reversing valve?

Thanks again.

[Edited by heatpumpowner on 01-11-2005 at 07:26 AM]

[md master]

Originally posted by heatpumpowner

One question, should it take 5 hours for one person to replace the reversing valve?
[/i]


Yes, it's a tedious job. Retrieving the refrigerant and then the evacuation time (to pull a proper 500 mic vaccum)when it's cold takes alot longer.

[jacob perkins]

Originally posted by heatpumpowner
He is coming out 1/17/05 to replace said reversing valve.




OUCH!

Five man-hours,maybe more.

[plain spoken]

If he does not believe it is sticking then why is he replacing it?

[tonyo]

Unit could be in defrost. Defrost cycle is same as cooling. The vapor line would be cold during defrost, and could even frost. My question would be how long does this last. How often does it do this. Air is going to be colder during defrost. What's back up heat? (electric, gas) is it energizing during defrost?

[derrick1623]

Originally posted by plain spoken
If he does not believe it is sticking then why is he replacing it?

they said he does believe it is sticking, coming out of defrost.

[heatpumpowner]

Well the guy came out and replaced the reversing valve. It was a 5 hour job. The worst part was how cold it was. The temperature outside was around 20.

He said he has to come out again to make sure the charge is correct. We scheduled this appointment for January 26.

I will let everyone know if this does not fix the problem.

[seabreeze]

Did he say anything about the noisy start and stop. My XR11 (less than a year old) still makes a sound when starting up like the fan is out of alignment or a bearing is going bad. Once it gets going its ok but shutdown is not quiet either. Not sure whether to call in installer or live with it.

[travisfl]

Originally posted by seabreeze
Did he say anything about the noisy start and stop. My XR11 (less than a year old) still makes a sound when starting up like the fan is out of alignment or a bearing is going bad. Once it gets going its ok but shutdown is not quiet either. Not sure whether to call in installer or live with it.

I've seen quite a few XR11 / XR12 recently with bent fan shrouds (that top piece that the condenser fan motor mounts to). When the fan starts (or stops) the edge of the shroud vibrates down on the top frame to which it is mounted and causes a 'bang'. Also check the plastic trim piece in the center of the shroud to make sure it is not rattling.

If the fan shroud is the problem and replacing it isn't an option you can just remove it temporarily (4 screws) and put a narrow (1/2") piece of thin weatherstrip tape all the way around the top frame. Then remount the shroud. Probably not a factory approved work around but it seems to do the job.

[seabreeze]

Thank you TravisFL for your help. I think you hit the nail on the head. I noticed that when pressure is applied to the shroud the unit quiets down considerably. The plastic top centerpiece does seem a little loose but not sure if it is contributing to the problem.

[heatpumpowner]

SeaBreeze,

I feel your pain regarding the Trane XR 11. I did not yet have any problems with how loud the system was when starting up. The few times I was able to run the system in normal heat mode the system sounded fine. However in the last 40 days we had the system on emergency heat around 30 of those days.

To update everyone:

My installer came back on Jan 26 to check the charge. When he arrived he noticed the new reversing valve had failed. He then spent another 3 hours replacing the reversing valve for the second time. I was then told that when they turned the system on to check it, the new reversing valve failed again. I am once again on emergency heat.

My installer has now decided to replace the entire outdoor unit. I am not sure what the policy is regarding putting names of installers on this board but if anyone lives in the Washington DC metro area and are getting a new heat pump put in please shoot me an email to talk and see if you are unlucky enough to be in talks with my current installer.

My email is dlittle411@yahoo.com. I would not want anyone else to go through what I am with this particular installer.

I will keep everyone posted on when the new heat pump is installed, and how it does.

[travisfl]

Originally posted by heatpumpowner
....My installer came back on Jan 26 to check the charge. When he arrived he noticed the new reversing valve had failed. He then spent another 3 hours replacing the reversing valve for the second time. I was then told that when they turned the system on to check it, the new reversing valve failed again. I am once again on emergency heat.

My installer has now decided to replace the entire outdoor unit.....[/B]Assuming he is correct about his diagnosis, then it is likely there is crap in the lineset causing the reversing valve to fail.

Was this a new installation or a replacement? If the latter, what was the failure mode of the old system? Burned out compressor, maybe? Did the installer replace the lineset?

You can bet that it is not the equipment that is failing, it is the installation!

[twosticks]

Three bad reversing valves is kinda hard to believe
unless he's overheating the new ones when putting
them in.

[aircooled53]

Tell your installer to open the new air handler and check the (TXV bulb) to insure it is clamped to the suction line. When he recovered the freon from the first reversing valve install did he replace the liquid line drier?
Tell him to check the solinoid on the valve, I have never had to replace a reversing valve more than once in 20+ years.He is not finding the problem and you are paying for it in electric usage...Call the office and ask if this has happen on other installations, if no answer call Trane and request they send out factory rep. I am not trying to bad mouth the technician, but after the first valve there is something that he is not catching on this problem.

[HVAC Pro]

I'm sorry did you say Trane? Guess it's hard to start one too! :eek: Oh, I'm just kidding calm down... :D

[heatpumpowner]

This was a replacement. The Trane that was there before was around 20 years old and the compressor was burned out. I do not know what a lineset is, if this contains the freon, then no it was not replaced.

The installation manager believes there is something causing the restriction in the coil. That is why they decided to replace the entire outside unit. I also found it hard to believe why they spent all of my time and there time wasting changing the reversing valve twice.

I did request that a new installer come out rather than have the same guy put in the new one. So far from this site I have learned that proper installatin procedures are as important as a quality system.

Maybe I was the unlucky one and did get a bogus unit from Trane. **** happens, no big deal. The installer has decided to do the right thing (after wasting 5 days of my anual leave) and replace the entire outside unit. I applaud them for that. However, the lack of customer service from Trane is truly amazing! I have yet to receive any confirmation from Trane as to the problems associated with my unit. They simply produce units and leave the dealer to fix whatever problems may arise. This is an extremely poor business model. If I would have know this was the case I would have never bought a Trane from the get go.

I can also tell you I will never buy one again!

Just so everyone knows I have tried to have Home Depot set up a different company to do the new install, and they have said there is no chance of this happening. Thanks a bunch Home Depot.

One final note of disrespect from the Installer, the instalation manager decides smoking cigarettes (I have no problem with that) is ok and putting the butts in my lawn for my puppy (lab which he has met several times) to eat is ok. Once again anyone requiring installatin in DC area please contact me at dlittle411@yahoo.com. I will give an unbiased opinion of the service received.

Installer is coming 2/1/05 to replace the outside unit. I will keep you posted...

[Edited by heatpumpowner on 01-31-2005 at 09:20 AM]

[travisfl]

Originally posted by heatpumpowner
This was a replacement. The Trane that was there before was around 20 years old and the compressor was burned out. I do not know what a lineset is, if this contains the freon, then no it was not replaced. The installation manager believes there is something causing the restriction in the coil.

Sounds like a classic case of crap left in the lineset because of the old compressor burnout. Wouldn't be surprised if there is now crap in the evaporator coil, too. If it were my system I'd replace the lineset, the outdoor unit, and the indoor coil and TXV as well. Otherwise you may be chasing problems for years to come.

You really need to get Trane's attention on this one and demand that the system be fixed correctly. Have you called the DC area office and asked for a factory rep's assistance?

Washington, D.C. Sales Office
12320 Parklawn Drive
Rockville, Maryland 20001
301.984.2400


[Edited by travisfl on 01-31-2005 at 09:53 AM]

[seabreeze]

I have had the same lousy experience with Trane customer service. As I indicated in other posts, they always flip you back to installer, like they are afraid that anything they say or do will somehow come back to haunt them. I cannot understand this attitude from a supposedly reputable company. If the manufacturer doesn't know how the equipment is supposed to run how do they expect anyone else to know. As far as the XR-11 goes I am beginning to think that we got the rotten apples in the Trane lineup of heat pumps, and a 10year parts and labor warranty is only as good as the outfit doing the servicing.

[HVAC Pro]

heatpumpowner, I can empathize with you. As we all know, any brand hvac equipment, automobile, or any other mechanical contraption can have defects. It's how you handle that situation that is important. I think manufacturers as well as installing contractors should learn to show a little humility in this regard. One of the most important aspects of my business is customer satisfaction and I think it is for every contractor. I recommend that you voice everything to your installing contractor that you have here. Including the cigarette butts. If they don't know, they can't make changes.

[heatpumpowner]

Travisfl,

Sounds like a classic case of crap left in the lineset because of the old compressor burnout.
__________________________________________________ _________

The outdoor unit was replaced February 1, 2005. Let me know if I understand what you are saying regarding the "crap in the lineset." Does this mean the actual freon could be causing the problem? I did ask the installer before they installed the first one if they would be replacing the copper pipe (and new freon of course) that holds the freon and transfers it back and forth from Heat Pump to Air Handler. They insisted this was not necessary. I will be contacting the DC sales office to inquire about what went wrong with the system. They took it with them to determine what the problem was.

One final thought: when the installers were tearing out the old outside unit he noticed the freon was leaking ever so slightly. Could this have contaminated the rest of the freon causing the problems? (Just grasping at straws i guess)

[travisfl]

Originally posted by heatpumpowner
Does this mean the actual freon could be causing the problem? I did ask the installer before they installed the first one if they would be replacing the copper pipe (and new freon of course) that holds the freon and transfers it back and forth from Heat Pump to Air Handler. They insisted this was not necessary.When your old compressor burned out it contaminated the entire system with acid and the charred remains of the motor windings. Unless the lineset was carefully flushed and perfectly evacuated before installation (difficult, but not imposssible to do) some of that material and acid will find its way into your new evaporator, expansion valve, and condenser components. In these circumstances one classic failure mode is a sticking reversing valve. There are steps you can take to mitigate the risk such as installing a temporary "burn out" dryer in the liquid line, but the best thing to do is to install a new lineset any time it is physically practical.

Was this an R-22 system that was replaced with another R-22 system, or is the new system R-410a?


Originally posted by heatpumpowner
One final thought: when the installers were tearing out the old outside unit he noticed the freon was leaking ever so slightly. Could this have contaminated the rest of the freon causing the problems?Leaking refrigerant shouldn't cause a problem in and of itself. On a clean system it would be a sign that the system was still under pressure, which would be a good thing.

[heatpumpowner]

All,

So far the new unit is working fine. We have had it for 22 days now and nothing to talk about. What a relief. Thank you all for your thoughts on the system.

One final question, I hear people talk about charging the freon. What does this mean? Should I do this every year?

[travisfl]

Originally posted by heatpumpowner
I hear people talk about charging the freon. What does this mean? Your system is sealed and completely self-contained. The only reason to add freon ("charge the system") would be if there is a leak.