Irritated Eyes, Clogged noses, slight soar throad !!!

[jonny2]

I've a sick house! (I think)

We had a new fancy variable speed furnace installed about 3 weeks ago. Since then, we've been getting up with irritated eyes (burning), cloagged up and irritated (burning) nostrils, and slightly soar throats. My little daughters cought during the night and in the morning when they wake up and have psymtoms of a cold with slight runny noses.

Nights have been cold and the furnace has been running mostly at night. Our symptoms are mostly eliminated during the day (we have an older house that is vented pretty well through the old windows! ;0) and are totally gone about a couple of hours after we leave the house.

We also have a humidifier and 2 Hygrometers that tell us inside humidity is at 40-42% (strangely, I have set the humidistat to around 30%).

I've two CO deterctors and neither indicates anything abnormal.

The contractor sent a technician back who did a visual inspection of the humidifier (ensured it is wet and water is flowing on it) and the furnace (removed the panel and looked at the flame). He then said that the problem was very likely with the air vents not having been cleaned for a long time. He suggested I get the vents cleaned and also use a better filter (I use the kind you can buy for $3-5 at home depot) to eliminate allergens. He claimed the new Infinity Carrier has a much stronger blower and that's why we had no symptoms with the old furnace.

Does this sound reasonable?
If so, what should we look for in a vent cleaning company?
Anything else to worry about?

Thank you in advance.

[Milk man]

The stronger blower thing is what I was thinking also.

I remember and install that replaced an old belt driven drive. I went back two days later to do somthing and could of sworn that the installer never even looked at the filter because it was so dirty. The new blower just sucked the dirt right out of the return.

[billva]

is this by any chance an attic installation. if so its possible the return is not properly sealed and it is pulling in insulation particles, distributing them throughout the ductwork.

[conrad1]

I would definitely have my duct sealed and as for duct cleaning I have yet to see a great one but make sure you check around and if the vaccum is able to be carried in the house rather than mounted in the van send them on they’re way

>>>edit... removed caps


[Edited by jultzya on 11-09-2005 at 12:37 PM]

[lumberg]

This is where someone posts a picture of the Caps Lock key to familiarize conrad with this wonderful feature.

Yes jonny since the humidity seems up to par I would suspect stronger blower dislodging things as well.

You can buy filters that you cut to size and actually put behind the registers also.

I've not been a fan of duct cleaning since I joined this board but this might be a case where it is actually indicated.

Good luck, and keep us updated!

[aircooled53]

Sounds to me like everybody has sinus infections and that is from air-born particles, so that is not the furnace but ductwork and filter system.If you didn't have ducts cleaned or sized properly for the new system, here lies the problem.

Cfm of the new furnace is greater due to design .
Might want to have someone check all the ductwork, returns to insure they are sealed.Most new duct cleaning company's that are good will have a camera so that you can see the duct inside and find any splits,cracks or places that need to be sealed.Change your filter today, if your family is sick then the spores are inside the filter and if not changed it will only prolong there illness.

[Gunnery Sergeant Hartman]

Originally posted by lumberg

You can buy filters that you cut to size and actually put behind the registers also.

[/B]

This is the worst advice ever given on this board.

DO NOT put filters behind your registers unless you want higher utility bills, shorter lifespan of the equipment, and the possibly to crack the heat exchanger and kill everyone in the house!

[NormChris]

It is possible that you still have a carbon monoxide problem. Most home co alarms will not go off until fairly high levels of co are detected. Only a low level co alarm would go off. So you may have a co problem.

The changes made with the installation of your new furnace may actually have changed the pressure differentials in your home. If the furnace is exhausting more air up the flue there is always the possibility that a negative pressure is being created which can prevent other fuel fired appliances from venting properly. A gas water heater or even a fireplace for example.

Have a contractor come in with a professional co analyzer such as Bacharach's Monoxor 2. Have them check each appliance for co. In addition, have them check each appliance under different conditions. Such as with the furnace on and off. With the furnace and all appliances on as well as with the bathroom and range exhaust fans on as well. Try to create a negative pressure in the house and then check the draft and co production of each fuel fired appliance.

For more information go to: http://www.bacharach-training.com

[Jim Davis]

Norm Chris is right on the money. Just had a lady and a couple of kids that had been experiencing the same symptoms and found her boiler making over 600ppm of CO. It was not all dumping into the house but enough to make them sick. After the contractor fixed the problem their symptoms went away. Your alarms will allow 70-399ppm in your house for hours and not go off. If the furnace is tied to a water heater it could be causing it to make CO. You really need a contractor that knows what he is doing and the one you have doesn't have a clue!

[plain spoken]

Originally posted by Jim Davis
You really need a contractor that knows what he is doing and the one you have doesn't have a clue!

What crystal ball did you look at to determine this? Since you do not know what he did or did not do how did you reach this conclusion?

[johnl45]

Is your home at the proper humidity level?

[jdenyer]

I feel that NormChris is on the right track. I assume this is a gas furnace. Gas furnaces can also produce some oxides of nitrogen which is a respiratory irritant. That could explain the sore throats, burning eyes, burning nose etc. Sounds to me like something is not venting as it should. It could also be dust blowing out of the ducts with a stronger blower, that would at least explain the stuffy nose, but burning eyes and sore throat leads me to think it's a venting issue. Any funky new smells?

[conrad1]

Originally posted by lumberg
This is where someone posts a picture of the Caps Lock key to familiarize conrad with this wonderful feature.

Yes jonny since the humidity seems up to par I would suspect stronger blower dislodging things as well.

You can buy filters that you cut to size and actually put behind the registers also.

I've not been a fan of duct cleaning since I joined this board but this might be a case where it is actually indicated.

Good luck, and keep us updated!
SORRY to offend!!!!!!! lumberg

[Jim Davis]

Originally posted by plain spoken

Originally posted by Jim Davis
You really need a contractor that knows what he is doing and the one you have doesn't have a clue!

What crystal ball did you look at to determine this? Since you do not know what he did or did not do how did you reach this conclusion?
Not a crystal ball but an eye ball. Any contractor that pulls the burner door off a furnace and looks at a flame to determine if it is good or bad would serve the public better as a cook at Burger King.

[plain spoken]

While this contractor may or may not have given the unit a complete inspection, we do not know what all he checked. My point was that the allegation that he did not have a clue is a little strong for someone not knowing all the details.

It could be that this family is just experiencing seasonal allergies or flu that have absolutely nothing to do with the furnace installation. It could be the dust as discussed and it could be CO as mentioned. Maybe it was checked, maybe it wasn't, but the homeowner should request one.

[Edited by plain spoken on 12-22-2004 at 02:23 PM]

[Jim Davis]

The people have the symptoms mostly at night, they seem to go away when they leave the house. This is the first thing people are asked when CO poisoning is suspected. The symptoms the people are exhibiting are very similar to CO symptoms. Anyone that doesn't carry a Carbon Monoxide Analyzer with them on any heating call, especially a complaint of illness, is providing a grave dis-service. Thus the contractor doesn't have a clue, and I am being nice!

[plain spoken]

Just read your profile. Your comments make more sense now.

Not arguing that CO should be checked, just hard for you to make such a accusation from the limited amount of info provided about the contractor. But hey, you are entitled to your opinion.

[Jim Davis]

On my first post I talked about a lady and her kids that had similar symptoms and her contractor didn't test either, just looked. She said he was a really nice guy. I am sure he would have sent flowers to the funeral(this is an opinion) He didn't have a clue either. After thousands and thousands of these I am not voicing an opinion but instead a fact! The story above will be in Air Conditioning News in the future.

[lumberg]

Sounds like CO should be the first thing for which to test, especially since the test would have a clear-cut result. If that test is negative, go from there.

I didn't realize those behind-the-register filters were so bad. I was just saying they existed.

conrad--no prob! Just about everyone does it once.

[jonny2]

Originally posted by Jim Davis
Your alarms will allow 70-399ppm in your house for hours and not go off. If the furnace is tied to a water heater it could be causing it to make CO.

Both of them are in the basement and the exhaust pipes merge at some point going up the roof. The contractor used the existing set up from the older furnace, which was about 60% efficient and 120,000 BTU. The new one is 84% efficient and 90,000 BTU. Does the additional info help?

[jonny2]

Originally posted by johnl45
Is your home at the proper humidity level?

I've one of these digital thermometer / hygrometer devices that reads slightly over 42% humidity. The actual humidistat is set to 32% and the humidifier seems to work when the furnace is running. Is it normal for humidity level to be higher than what is set on the humidistat?

[jonny2]

Originally posted by jdenyer
I feel that NormChris is on the right track. I assume this is a gas furnace. Gas furnaces can also produce some oxides of nitrogen which is a respiratory irritant. That could explain the sore throats, burning eyes, burning nose etc. Sounds to me like something is not venting as it should. It could also be dust blowing out of the ducts with a stronger blower, that would at least explain the stuffy nose, but burning eyes and sore throat leads me to think it's a venting issue. Any funky new smells?

No, I can't tell there is any new smells. What can one do about the possibility / probability of oxides of nitrogen? Could you clarify what you mean by the "venting issue"?

Thanks

[jdenyer]

Oxides of nitrogen are a byproduct of combustion, so is carbon monoxide(CO). CO has no odor or irritant properties but oxides of nitrogen or NOX for short is an irritant. NOX is mainly an irritant and not toxic like CO is. By venting issues I mean that something maybe causing combustion gases to come out of the vent pipe, ie flue, chimney etc. The biggest danger here is CO poisoning. The cause could be a blocked flue or chimney, negative pressure in the furnace room, insufficient draft etc. My bet is on insufficient draft, your vent pipe leading up to the roof is simply not generating enough draft to vent the furnace. Why? It was sized for a much larger furnace with a lot more heat going up the stack, now you put that new efficient smaller furnace in, whats gonna happen? Less heat going up the stack equals less draft, there might not be enough draft to suck the byproducts of combustion out of the furnace, these byproducts then "spill" into the air in your home. That is why the install manuals that come with new equipment tell the installer to make sure the vent system is a certain size. If I were you I would call a reputable HVAC company to come out and check this out. If you feel you are not getting anywhere then you could call your local fire department to come out and investigate. CO poisoning is nothing to mess with. If you feel flue like while at home and it clears up a little while after your out of the house, you are probably suffering from chronic CO poisoning. Not trying to scare you, just want you to take it seriously. Let us know what happens.

[tim koel]

Originally posted by BoltonNC

Originally posted by lumberg

You can buy filters that you cut to size and actually put behind the registers also.



This is the worst advice ever given on this board.

DO NOT put filters behind your registers unless you want higher utility bills, shorter lifespan of the equipment, and the possibly to crack the heat exchanger and kill everyone in the house! [/B]

THANKYOU! People don't change the furnace filter much less the ones behind supply grills!

[mo-flo]

i would check where the wtr. htr. flue pipe joins with furnace flue pipe.....furnace is most likely fan forced venting and wtr. htr. is natural draft venting,....you need a directional y-fitting for the common vent,...this would insure that wtr. htr. is not back-drafting,....just a thought.

[non-hvac tech guy]

Keep in mind that most UL-listed CO alarms that have the digital readouts maintain a "peak level observed" that can be seen by pressing the peak level or simiar button (like on the Kidde Nighthawk ones). While they will not alarm below those high levels, they do record any CO levels that they observe (down to 5ppm or so from what I've read) and you can see that by pressing peak level. I make it a habit to hit that button and look at the result on each of my CO alarms (Nighthawks) once a day so I know if low levels of CO are/have been lurking.

Might be worth trying that on yours and seeing if any CO levels have been observed that didn't trigger the alarm action.

[madhouse]

Had a similar problem with a new install. Every time the furnace would come on we would get an instant headache and nose/throat irritation. CO levels were 0. I believe it was the manufacturing oils and chemicals used in the furnace, coil, and ductwork. The furnace only ran on the first stage for a short time because of mild temps so it never burned off. I opened all the windows and ran it on high for several hours. The condition eventually went away.
Also make sure your CO detectors are in the sleeping areas.

[airhead1164]

It sounds like your furnace is now venting through your water heater. A tech properly trained with a combustion annalyzer can find this, it isn't rocket science. Has he checked draft? How about checking for blower interfernce with the draft also. What about static pressures? If your dust is not properly sized those wonderful air filters kill your static. Also if the return air is leaky you will down draft your chimney and the furnace will vent out the water heater. Also if the furnace isn't properly tuned with a combustion annalyzer it is actually less effiecent then what you took out. You need to get this looked at by a qualified tech before your family gets hurt. JMHO.
Brian

[davidr]

Originally posted by non-hvac tech guy
Keep in mind that most UL-listed CO alarms that have the digital readouts maintain a "peak level observed" that can be seen by pressing the peak level or simiar button (like on the Kidde Nighthawk ones). While they will not alarm below those high levels, they do record any CO levels that they observe (down to 5ppm or so from what I've read) and you can see that by pressing peak level. I make it a habit to hit that button and look at the result on each of my CO alarms (Nighthawks) once a day so I know if low levels of CO are/have been lurking.

Might be worth trying that on yours and seeing if any CO levels have been observed that didn't trigger the alarm action.

non-tech,you better look twice at the alarm that you are using. Any alarm with a UL 2034 rating is useless for protection.
They are not designed to read CO levels this low.
If you want an alarm that actually does monitor low level CO look at the NSI 3000 from National Comfort Institute.
Brian it is great to see you posting,when I saw airhead 1164 I thought it might be you.
Jonny,take Jim Davis' advice along with airhead 1164 they know what they are talking about.

[non-hvac tech guy]

From the owners manual for the Kidde Nighthawk 810-1571, "the peak level feature is helpful in identifying low level CO occurances below 30PPM. Although the unit will not automatically display levels below 30PPM, it will detect and store those readings in memory...concentration levels as low as 11PPM and up to 999PPM will be displayed."

From the coexperts.com website, "UL listed CO alarms will now be required to IGNORE low level concentrations of CO -- 30 ppm -- for at least 30 DAYS without sounding an alarm signal. UL listed CO alarms are now required to ignore concentrations levels of 70 ppm or less for AT LEAST one hour before sounding an alarm signal."

As can be seen (unless I'm reading these fairly simple paragraphs mistakenly), the UL-listed alarms are designed to not ALARM at these low levels - they sure can detect them and store that information (and show them upon that peak-level feature), they just cannot (and do not) go into an alarm state based on these low levels - which, as I understand it, is the point behind the UL standards - to reduce/eliminate alarms based on low-level transient conditions (however misguided that may be).

If I'm wrong, please point me to some documentation that shows it, as I would love to know - I'm here to learn!

[binford]

Obviously CO testing should be performed.
Not being there is hard to say, but it could be as simple as your new furnace blows twice as much air as the old one, so you’re having a reaction to the dust that is being distributed while running. (Add and Aprilaire 5000)

Double checking the flue pipes on both the water heater and furnace for proper size, could be oversize since you went with a smaller power draft furnace.( duravent.com has some technical info), checking draft, and possible CO spillage should be done on the water heater. When the furnace is running and the water heater kicks in are the flue gases going up and out or are they "spilling" out into the room.

I believe Davidr mention the low level CO meters,
http://www.nationalcomfortinstitute.com/members/products2.cfm?product_id=21


[Edited by binford on 12-24-2004 at 03:23 PM]

[davidr]

Originally posted by non-hvac tech guy
From the owners manual for the Kidde Nighthawk 810-1571, "the peak level feature is helpful in identifying low level CO occurances below 30PPM. Although the unit will not automatically display levels below 30PPM, it will detect and store those readings in memory...concentration levels as low as 11PPM and up to 999PPM will be displayed."

From the coexperts.com website, "UL listed CO alarms will now be required to IGNORE low level concentrations of CO -- 30 ppm -- for at least 30 DAYS without sounding an alarm signal. UL listed CO alarms are now required to ignore concentrations levels of 70 ppm or less for AT LEAST one hour before sounding an alarm signal."

As can be seen (unless I'm reading these fairly simple paragraphs mistakenly), the UL-listed alarms are designed to not ALARM at these low levels - they sure can detect them and store that information (and show them upon that peak-level feature), they just cannot (and do not) go into an alarm state based on these low levels - which, as I understand it, is the point behind the UL standards - to reduce/eliminate alarms based on low-level transient conditions (however misguided that may be).

If I'm wrong, please point me to some documentation that shows it, as I would love to know - I'm here to learn!

non tech,you have already been to coexperts.com. This website has a ton of information as why you should not trust a UL 2034 alarm.
It should scare you that the alarm you are trusting your family to does not alarm at low levels.That is if the sensor is even functional.
Go back to coexperts.com & find the picture Rudy Leatherman took of a co experts alarm & a kidde nighthawk sealed in a plastic bag with 100 PPM of CO being pumped into the bag.
The nighthawk shows 0 PPM while the co experts is displaying 67 PPM. This is after one minute of exposure time.
Also do a google search on carbon monoxide & look up some of the test that have been run showing real world response times for UL 2034 alarms.
I am not trying to be argumentative on this subject, but I believe you need to be protected from the dangers that are posed from long term low level CO exposure.
As you posted the kidde can ignore levels below 30 PPM for at least 30 days,something to think about.



[Edited by davidr on 12-24-2004 at 04:23 PM]

[non-hvac tech guy]

Originally posted by davidr
I am not trying to be argumentative on this subject, but I believe you need to be protected from the dangers that are posed from long term low level CO exposure.
As you posted the kidde can ignore levels below 30 PPM for at least 30 days,something to think about.
[Edited by davidr on 12-24-2004 at 04:23 PM] [/B]

I am also not trying to be argumentative. I understand everything you said and it makes sense. But your original comment was that no UL-listed alarm is designed to detect low levels of CO and they are (atleast the ones I have seen are) - they are just designed to not alarm on them. I beleive that I need to be protected form low level CO exposure as well and that is why I do the peak level test on the alarms every day or so - if there is any CO I'll see it and if its long term, I'll see that too. I have also tested all of my alarms every season with the cigarette smoke test and they all record the observed CO levels and display them upon pressing the peak level button.

Again, I don't mean to be argumentative - I understand what you say and I understand the falacity of relying on these things if you don't actually look at the levels they record and not alarm on. I know I'm probably one of the only people that have these things and use the peak level feature regularily and that is one major problem with UL-listed alarms.

Thanks for the discussion - it is interesting. Happy holidays.

[davidr]

non tech,I still stand by my comments about UL 2034 alarms reading at lower levels.
The nighthawks sensor is +/- 20% but not at lower levels.
If I'm correct this info is also in the instruction manual.
This is if the unit was made after 98 when they changed sensors.
Check out the sensor section on co experts.com,there is alot of information you will find useful.
Thank you for your interest on this topic,it is one that I take very seriously since I found out the truths associated with CO poisoning & the procedures used to test for it.

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by BoltonNC

Originally posted by lumberg

You can buy filters that you cut to size and actually put behind the registers also.



This is the worst advice ever given on this board.

DO NOT put filters behind your registers unless you want higher utility bills, shorter lifespan of the equipment, and the possibly to crack the heat exchanger and kill everyone in the house! [/B]

Yeah, that was pretty awful.

Lumberg, what are you thinking, man????

[stillayankee]

I find it interesting that none of the technicians that replied asked if you also had a Carrier (or other brand) electronic air cleaner installed. Those symtoms you have can be caused by too much ozone. I know, I had the exact same problem with my new house & had to do a boatload of research only to find that the installer had improperly connected the air cleaner---it was on all the time, even when the blower wasn't on. That causes an excess of ozone which is what is can cause those symtoms.

[wally01]

Is this an older home? Was the chimney lined? This could be a source of CO. Also I like the sugestion of an air cleaner putting out excess ozone. Too much fighting about brands of CO detectors.You guys are genius'.