WHAT IF??

[YESITDOES]

There really was a way to treat a cooling tower without using chemicals that actually worked? Would you use it ??

[marylandtech]

No i prefer using harsh chemicals and destroying the environment . Is this a trick question?

[DaveCR]

Only after I get a set of anti-gravity dollies for moving equipment around.

[jackintheboxtec]

I believe there is already a thread about this.

[jackintheboxtec]

YESITDOES:: You must be a salesman for this stuff this it your third thread about this.

[pecmsg]

Don’t tell me, Show Me!

[doubleduece]

Ive seen it work, but I cant say Im a big proponent of it. There is a company here locally called Descalamatic that uses what is baically strong magnets epoxied inside a section of pipe. I have a building that hase used it exclusively for about 15years on the closed loop and cooling tower. The cooling tower also has a pump, nozzles and sock filter to keep the sump sparking clean, and it does. The chiller tubes look decent every year no scale, and the closed loop is crystal clear. One day I will catch there tech pumping in chemicals,,,one day...

[klove]

There really was a way to treat a cooling tower without using chemicals that actually worked? Would you use it ??

Sure.


I'd believe in UFO's, too, if there actually were such a thing. All kidding aside, I have no problem with how anything is done as long as it works as it should (not necessarily as it's advertised) with no fine print. But to get away from tried and true, the burden of proof would have to be on the treatment provider using different pieces of equipment at different places working under different conditions, and all of them testing out as they should over a period of time. The treatment provider would also have to stand responsible and liable for any problems caused by their product not working as it should, with no exceptions. Then I'd consider it.

[cperk]

Ive seen it work, but I cant say Im a big proponent of it. There is a company here locally called Descalamatic that uses what is baically strong magnets epoxied inside a section of pipe. I have a building that hase used it exclusively for about 15years on the closed loop and cooling tower. The cooling tower also has a pump, nozzles and sock filter to keep the sump sparking clean, and it does. The chiller tubes look decent every year no scale, and the closed loop is crystal clear. One day I will catch there tech pumping in chemicals,,,one day...

Or, you or a bunch of others will catch legionaires disease.:LOL:

[enb54]

Don’t tell me, Show Me!

Well, I've said this before and tried to help my friends and even my alleged enemies...

As someone said on a different board, “When did you last encounter magnetic chalk?” This method of separating the consumer from their money has been going on for a long, long time, starting about the late 1800’s from what I could discover.

Calcium Carbonate (lime scale) is not magnetic (diamagnetic) and thus is unaffected by these consumer electromagnetic devices at all, in any way. Anyone wanting to verify this can scrape some (as much as you want) of the lime scale buildup out of their water line and mix it in a glass beaker of water (no cheating with iron particles from your rusty old radiators), place any magnetic or electric field (of any frequency you wish to generate) close by and see if the calcium carbonate dissolves, is attracted/repelled by, or in any way is affected by said magnetic or electric fields. Even after weeks of exposure, I think you'll get the same results I did, exactly no change in the solids/solution.

Now about that electromagnetic field penetrating those copper pipes… Are we to believe that if we stand in a copper lined room with a radio that it will still receive signals from outside? In industry these are called “shielded rooms” and are used to ensure that absolutely no electromagnetic influences come in to, or escape from, the room… used for testing devices like your computer, television, cell phone, etc. Now we shouldn’t get confused with “eddy” currents (Google for "eddy currents in copper" just for fun!) from one of your old high school experiments (Lenz's law), because if the calcium carbonate was affected by the eddy currents, then it should be slowing down as it passes through the field, not exactly the results claimed for these devices...

As several posters have alluded, anything that is not consistently reproducible is not related to our physical world, and therefore should be treated with extreme skepticism.

Now what about those patents? You can patent anything even if it does not work, have a look at these typical electrical/magnetic "water conditioning" devices starting in 1927…

U.S. Patents

1773275 (1926), at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/1773275.html
2596743 (1946), at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2596743.html
2652925 (1949), at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2652925.html
5074998 (1991), at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5074998.html
5776334 (1998) at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5776334.html
and 5667677 (1997) at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5667677.html

are indicative of the stuff you can find (and it has been going on for a long time!) if you start digging.

If this "technology" actually works, ever wonder why all the big wholesale/hardware/retail chain stores are not selling it and the government/military won't use it? Of course, there is a lot of money to be made in this business, so no amount of evidence will convince many people that they have been "had" by some smooth talking sales pitch, complete with psuedo-scientific sounding double-speak.

To reiterate, anyone who works with electricity knows that a moving electric field generates a moving magnetic field and vice versa (Maxwell's equations), so since lime scale is non-magnetic, there is not a chance those electrically or magnetically operated devices will work. Research with high energy levels (as in high energy particle physics) does indicate that one can affect molecular chemistry temporarily for a very short distance or time, but not everyone would be happy with an MRI type machine in their home. Thus, in the real world of domestic scale control/reduction, only filters, chemical or ion exchange type systems will perform effectively, safely and reproducibly.

For those interested in some real world testing of these types of device by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, go to http://www.cecer.army.mil/techreport...cDescalers.pdf and remember to look at page 34. As those who are web wise know, the “.mil” domain is exclusive to the U.S. Department of Defense, so this is not a “BS” site purporting scientific gibberish.

For those who are interested, simple explanations of magnetism are at http://www.worsleyschool.net/science...magnetism.html .

Hope this "tome" is of some assistance to those who like to do their research before spending their hard earned cash…

To all who've seen my post before, I apologize, I am just so PO'd that people get sucked in by shysters to keep spending hard earned money on junk that does not work!

[mark_ballard]

Water energizers makes energizer rods that work. You place them in a rack in the cooling tower water and clean them monthly. Works very well.

[jsherhvac]

WHAT IF??? We just used air cooled equipment:LOL:

[RichardL]

I remember back when, I installed scores of the "Ingersol-Rand-Electrostatic-Water-Treater', which used a bypass connection treating 20% of the condenser water with a High DC voltage(10kv) power supply connected to an aluminum grid inside a 8" aluminum pipe 8' long. I do remember also that regardless of how close I mounted the power supply to the "Treater", that I always had to have another 100' roll of Blue-Max 8mm spark plug wire to do this..As I was also running a drag boat at the time...the "Scrap" wire came in handy...
Whether the "Treaters" worked or not....
No Comment..

[Octopus]

What if pigs fly?
My wife actually stopped nagging me to do crap?
We had nap time?
I got a good Christmas bonus?
We all got a raise?

:tussor:

[YESITDOES]

Well, I've said this before and tried to help my friends and even my alleged enemies...

As someone said on a different board, “When did you last encounter magnetic chalk?” This method of separating the consumer from their money has been going on for a long, long time, starting about the late 1800’s from what I could discover.

Calcium Carbonate (lime scale) is not magnetic (diamagnetic) and thus is unaffected by these consumer electromagnetic devices at all, in any way. Anyone wanting to verify this can scrape some (as much as you want) of the lime scale buildup out of their water line and mix it in a glass beaker of water (no cheating with iron particles from your rusty old radiators), place any magnetic or electric field (of any frequency you wish to generate) close by and see if the calcium carbonate dissolves, is attracted/repelled by, or in any way is affected by said magnetic or electric fields. Even after weeks of exposure, I think you'll get the same results I did, exactly no change in the solids/solution.

Now about that electromagnetic field penetrating those copper pipes… Are we to believe that if we stand in a copper lined room with a radio that it will still receive signals from outside? In industry these are called “shielded rooms” and are used to ensure that absolutely no electromagnetic influences come in to, or escape from, the room… used for testing devices like your computer, television, cell phone, etc. Now we shouldn’t get confused with “eddy” currents (Google for "eddy currents in copper" just for fun!) from one of your old high school experiments (Lenz's law), because if the calcium carbonate was affected by the eddy currents, then it should be slowing down as it passes through the field, not exactly the results claimed for these devices...

As several posters have alluded, anything that is not consistently reproducible is not related to our physical world, and therefore should be treated with extreme skepticism.

Now what about those patents? You can patent anything even if it does not work, have a look at these typical electrical/magnetic "water conditioning" devices starting in 1927…

U.S. Patents

1773275 (1926), at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/1773275.html
2596743 (1946), at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2596743.html
2652925 (1949), at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2652925.html
5074998 (1991), at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5074998.html
5776334 (1998) at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5776334.html
and 5667677 (1997) at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5667677.html

are indicative of the stuff you can find (and it has been going on for a long time!) if you start digging.

If this "technology" actually works, ever wonder why all the big wholesale/hardware/retail chain stores are not selling it and the government/military won't use it? Of course, there is a lot of money to be made in this business, so no amount of evidence will convince many people that they have been "had" by some smooth talking sales pitch, complete with psuedo-scientific sounding double-speak.

To reiterate, anyone who works with electricity knows that a moving electric field generates a moving magnetic field and vice versa (Maxwell's equations), so since lime scale is non-magnetic, there is not a chance those electrically or magnetically operated devices will work. Research with high energy levels (as in high energy particle physics) does indicate that one can affect molecular chemistry temporarily for a very short distance or time, but not everyone would be happy with an MRI type machine in their home. Thus, in the real world of domestic scale control/reduction, only filters, chemical or ion exchange type systems will perform effectively, safely and reproducibly.

For those interested in some real world testing of these types of device by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, go to http://www.cecer.army.mil/techreport...cDescalers.pdf and remember to look at page 34. As those who are web wise know, the “.mil” domain is exclusive to the U.S. Department of Defense, so this is not a “BS” site purporting scientific gibberish.

For those who are interested, simple explanations of magnetism are at http://www.worsleyschool.net/science...magnetism.html .

Hope this "tome" is of some assistance to those who like to do their research before spending their hard earned cash…

To all who've seen my post before, I apologize, I am just so PO'd that people get sucked in by shysters to keep spending hard earned money on junk that does not work!

You need to check the "magnetic succeptibility chart" and the "right hand" rule and "liquid oxygen suspeneded in a magnetic field",or google "frog suspended in a magnetic field" while your at it check the "lorentz principle" and just wondering why those links arent available to view when i click on them , i would really like to read them

[YESITDOES]

Or, you or a bunch of others will catch legionaires disease.:LOL:

I know these two guys named CU and AG that may be able to help with that:callpro::CU:

[enb54]

You need to check the "magnetic succeptibility chart" and the "right hand" rule and "liquid oxygen suspeneded in a magnetic field",or google "frog suspended in a magnetic field" while your at it check the "lorentz principle" and just wondering why those links arent available to view when i click on them , i would really like to read them

All those links in my post work, have you ever taken a radio into a shielded room? Call the military/FCC or similar body for corroboration. I won't comment on anything concerning liquid oxygen and magnetism (call CERN) or frogs (not normally found in domestic water pipes). Anyone who works in physics/electronics knows that there is a "skin" effect when inside a shielded medium, the Right Hand rule is part of Maxwell's equations (includes Lorentz's Principle), and of course liquid oxygen can be pumped with magnetic fields. So what are you telling me? That you know some stuff?

As common sense tells you, the simple way to test any water treatment device is to put water into a clear container with a circulating pump, use any kind of metallic or non-metallic lines you want, throw in any kind of water you want, run the pump for a while (at least 45-90 days) without the device and record the results. Next, place/put in your magic device with everything else the same, then record the results. I seriously doubt that the government/big business has been fooled into using this crap, and if they have, not for long. It is just too bad that bogus pseudoscience attracts innocent consumers and smaller businesses, and that many people can't seem to remember their grade school science.

Sorry, but if you can't use reproducible chemistry/physics to prove your stuff works, then don't try to flog magic on me.. maybe you'd like to buy some healthy heavy water???

[YESITDOES]

All those links in my post work, have you ever taken a radio into a shielded room? Call the military/FCC or similar body for corroboration. I won't comment on anything concerning liquid oxygen and magnetism (call CERN) or frogs (not normally found in domestic water pipes). Anyone who works in physics/electronics knows that there is a "skin" effect when inside a shielded medium, the Right Hand rule is part of Maxwell's equations (includes Lorentz's Principle), and of course liquid oxygen can be pumped with magnetic fields. So what are you telling me? That you know some stuff?

As common sense tells you, the simple way to test any water treatment device is to put water into a clear container with a circulating pump, use any kind of metallic or non-metallic lines you want, throw in any kind of water you want, run the pump for a while (at least 45-90 days) without the device and record the results. Next, place/put in your magic device with everything else the same, then record the results. I seriously doubt that the government/big business has been fooled into using this crap, and if they have, not for long. It is just too bad that bogus pseudoscience attracts innocent consumers and smaller businesses, and that many people can't seem to remember their grade school science.

Sorry, but if you can't use reproducible chemistry/physics to prove your stuff works, then don't try to flog magic on me.. maybe you'd like to buy some healthy heavy water???

The test you are referring to with the clear container have been run in labs and real world installations one of which being swimming pools averaging 15k gallons each. We have 100% consistent results, we were able to reduce the TDS in the swimming pools significantly after approx 14 days, through the high intensity focus field magnetics @approx 20gpm. CERN is irrelevant to the discussion CERN is the European organization For nuclear Research and focuses on particle accelerators. What does a shielded room have to do with this? I assume that you are speaking of a "faraday cage" which is an enclosure used to block external static electric fields.Reference your statement about electromagnetic fields not penetrating copper pipes anyone doubting this can do a simple experiment , place a nail inside a copper pipe and put a magnet on the outside, will the nail be attracted to the magnet??? According to you NO....... BUT................ after further review...... Yeah i know some "stuff":cliff:

[enb54]

The test you are referring to with the clear container have been run in labs and real world installations one of which being swimming pools averaging 15k gallons each. We have 100% consistent results, we were able to reduce the TDS in the swimming pools significantly after approx 14 days, through the high intensity focus field magnetics @approx 20gpm. CERN is irrelevant to the discussion CERN is the European organization For nuclear Research and focuses on particle accelerators. What does a shielded room have to do with this? I assume that you are speaking of a "faraday cage" which is an enclosure used to block external static electric fields.Reference your statement about electromagnetic fields not penetrating copper pipes anyone doubting this can do a simple experiment , place a nail inside a copper pipe and put a magnet on the outside, will the nail be attracted to the magnet??? According to you NO....... BUT................ after further review...... Yeah i know some "stuff":cliff:


In a rather feeble response, I'd say please supply some credible evidential links to reproducible scientific studies for your conclusions...

Regarding CERN, she seems to be the only method that could supply the kind of power to test and see if your ideas work (for a very short distance)...

Regarding the "faraday cage," Google the "shielded" or "screened" room topic and you'll likely find out one of the reasons why you are not speaking Russian today and living on a collective farm in Kazhakstan (big thanks to NORAD! :) )


Regarding electromagnetic fields and non ferrous metals, read more about "eddy currents" and the emf generated by a falling magnet in a non-ferrous metallic pipe like aluminum or copper (found in any high school physics lab experiment).

And really, I didn't know that iron nails were just as magnetic as calcium carbonate, it's actually rather shocking that our military hasn't taken advantage of this... hmmm...

[enb54]

Sorry! spelled Kazakhstan wrong! Got it confused with one of those other "stans"...

[YESITDOES]

In a rather feeble response, I'd say please supply some credible evidential links to reproducible scientific studies for your conclusions...

Regarding CERN, she seems to be the only method that could supply the kind of power to test and see if your ideas work (for a very short distance)...

Regarding the "faraday cage," Google the "shielded" or "screened" room topic and you'll likely find out one of the reasons why you are not speaking Russian today and living on a collective farm in Kazhakstan (big thanks to NORAD! :) )


Regarding electromagnetic fields and non ferrous metals, read more about "eddy currents" and the emf generated by a falling magnet in a non-ferrous metallic pipe like aluminum or copper (found in any high school physics lab experiment).

And really, I didn't know that iron nails were just as magnetic as calcium carbonate, it's actually rather shocking that our military hasn't taken advantage of this... hmmm...

All totally incoherent babble that is totally irrelevant to this conversation and discussion/debate. Stop changing the topic of discussion. We are talking about magnetic fields penetrating non -ferrous conduit/pipe. This radio frequency thing you are stuck on is totally IRRELEVANT to this discussion.Radio waves are in the electromagnetic spectrum, but they are different from magnetic fields, in the same family/spectrum- YES. Magnetic fields penetrate copper pipe period. NOW, what part of this do you not understand or agree with????? OH , the studies just to name a few here they are

The role pf chemical constituents and their effects of scale inhibition following magnetic treatment By Robert Reimers Tulanne University

Magnetic water treatment for Heating, refrigeration, and air conditioning By Jack Quinn P.E ASHRAE

Magnetic water treatment By Stuart Hibben

Corrosion 85 report #251 Ken Busch Baylor University
Corrosion 84 report #117 Elliot Raisen PHD

:pileon:

[enb54]

<SNIP>
This radio frequency thing you are stuck on is totally IRRELEVANT to this discussion.Radio waves are in the electromagnetic spectrum, but they are different from magnetic fields, in the same family/spectrum- YES. Magnetic fields penetrate copper pipe period. NOW, what part of this do you not understand or agree with????? OH , the studies just to name a few here they are

The role pf chemical constituents and their effects of scale inhibition following magnetic treatment By Robert Reimers Tulanne University

Magnetic water treatment for Heating, refrigeration, and air conditioning By Jack Quinn P.E ASHRAE

Magnetic water treatment By Stuart Hibben

Corrosion 85 report #251 Ken Busch Baylor University
Corrosion 84 report #117 Elliot Raisen PHD

:pileon:

Sorry for not responding earlier, have just returned from a short vacation in Montana and in Calgary for a few days, you are saying that the static magnetic field goes straight through the pipe (i.e. horizontally) rather than the generally accepted finding that it travels around the periphery (circumference) of the conductive pipe (North and South poles looping to each other)? My research seems to indicate a magnetic path which does not include the hollow part of a copper (or aluminum) tube. Please elaborate, I'm sure we'll find a new way to disagree, but I'm eager for any new reproducible thoughts on this topic...

The key to all of this is "Reproducible"

[YESITDOES]

[QUOTE=enb54;8303721]Sorry for not responding earlier, have just returned from a short vacation in Montana and in Calgary for a few days, you are saying that the static magnetic field goes straight through the pipe (i.e. horizontally) rather than the generally accepted finding that it travels around the periphery (circumference) of the conductive pipe (North and South poles looping to each other)? My research seems to indicate a magnetic path which does not include the hollow part of a copper (or aluminum) tube. Please elaborate, I'm sure we'll find a new way to disagree, but I'm eager for any new reproducible thoughts on this topic...

The key to all of this is "Reproducible"[/QUOTE

"It places the nail in the copper pipe with magnet on the outside" :CU:

[cperk]

Are calcium and lime ferrous metals?

[YESITDOES]

Are calcium and lime ferrous metals?

Correct, they are not ferrous metals, however they do not need to be in order to be affected by a magnetic field. Please refer to the "magnetic susceptibility" chart, or stop by the hospital or doctors office and look at an MRI machine!:yes:

[enb54]

[QUOTE=enb54;8303721]"It places the nail in the copper pipe with magnet on the outside" :CU:

Strong magnets have been used by artists and repair people to drag ferrous metals tied to string through copper, brass and aluminum tubing forever, so attracting a nail isn’t a surprise. In the presence of extremely powerful magnetic fields all kinds of strange things happen, but we are talking MRI strength fields here, not commonly available for water treatment. Also, as soon as the non magnetic material leaves the immediate field area, the astonishing and amazing effects disappear.

I still don’t understand how calcium carbonate could possibly be affected by a static magnetic field or even a varying electromagnetic field in non laboratory (i.e. real world) conditions. If this kind of method actually worked reliably, every HVAC company and plumbing outfit would be using it all over the world, and it would be an accepted and universal way to condition water.

By the way, shielded/screened rooms are not constructed of copper, brass or aluminum…

[enb54]

My original post mentioning copper as the shielded room was in error, the one we had was constructed of steel sheets laminated to 3/4" plywood, with special connectors for the panels, plus attenuators on the air openings and filters on all the wiring... FYI...