Physical water treatment/cooling towers

[YESITDOES]

Are any of you aware of any physical/chemical free water systems that are available today for cooling towers, and hot water boilers?? And obviously Iam looking for EFFECTIVE systems or treatment solutions, THANKS

[enb54]

Are any of you aware of any physical/chemical free water systems that are available today for cooling towers, and hot water boilers?? And obviously Iam looking for EFFECTIVE systems or treatment solutions, THANKS

The only physical non-chemical treatment that I personally have seen work is to first use reverse osmosis to remove dissolved solids, or use distilled water only. We used this (distilled water) on very high powered search/height finder radar (the cooling equipment) many moons ago. Do not believe anyone who tries to flog any magnetic or electronic device to "condition" your water, you'll just pay a real pro much more later to undo the damage...

[pecmsg]

Are any of you aware of any physical/chemical free water systems that are available today for cooling towers, and hot water boilers?? And obviously Iam looking for EFFECTIVE systems or treatment solutions, THANKS

From ASHRAE

http://www.ashrae.org/pressroom/detail/17510

[cperk]

It does not work, yes it does. Wait I'm confusing myself. Are you a salesman?

[flange]

have seen a bunch of dolphin systems used on mammoth evap condensers, and they seem to work ok.

[YESITDOES]

have seen a bunch of dolphin systems used on mammoth evap condensers, and they seem to work ok.

Ok, as far as the dolphin thing is concerned , "IM NOT GONNA FALL FOR THE WIRE AROUND THE PIPE" :LOL::LOL:

[enb54]

Ok, as far as the dolphin thing is concerned , "IM NOT GONNA FALL FOR THE WIRE AROUND THE PIPE" :LOL::LOL:

That sounds very smart, I should have mentioned that we mixed the distilled water with glycol (ordinary Prestone) to about 50% and replaced it every 6 months or so, of course this was the DEW/Pinetree/Mid Canada line. The Legionella is a real concern with the cooling towers, I think you are going to have to look long and hard for something non-chemical that actually works. Water treatment systems do use ultraviolet light to treat for microorganisms, but that won't help with scale deposition. Good luck, but if you find something, let us all know...

[doubleduece]

I quoted myself from you other post"WHAT IF"


Ive seen it work, but I cant say Im a big proponent of it. There is a company here locally called Descalamatic that uses what is baically strong magnets epoxied inside a section of pipe. I have a building that hase used it exclusively for about 15years on the closed loop and cooling tower. The cooling tower also has a pump, nozzles and sock filter to keep the sump sparking clean, and it does. The chiller tubes look decent every year no scale, and the closed loop is crystal clear. One day I will catch there tech pumping in chemicals,,,one day...

[YESITDOES]

That sounds very smart, I should have mentioned that we mixed the distilled water with glycol (ordinary Prestone) to about 50% and replaced it every 6 months or so, of course this was the DEW/Pinetree/Mid Canada line. The Legionella is a real concern with the cooling towers, I think you are going to have to look long and hard for something non-chemical that actually works. Water treatment systems do use ultraviolet light to treat for microorganisms, but that won't help with scale deposition. Good luck, but if you find something, let us all know...
CU and AG kill legionella :callpro: too bad advertising isnt accepting here

[cperk]

CU and AG kill legionella :callpro: too bad advertising isnt accepting here

I KNEW IT! I smelled the bulls#@! a mile away.

[YESITDOES]

I KNEW IT! I smelled the bulls#@! a mile away.

not anything bull about copper silver ionization you may want to look into it partner:rules::rules::callpro:

[cperk]

not anything bull about copper silver ionization you may want to look into it partner:rules::rules::callpro:

What are chiller tubes made of? Aluminum?

[YESITDOES]

What are chiller tubes made of? Aluminum? Y?

[supertek65]

good info!1

thanx!!!!!!!!!



have seen a bunch of dolphin systems used on mammoth evap condensers, and they seem to work ok.

[Randy S.]

For closed loops, the Elysator does pretty good, but I don't trust the hocus pocus stuff or the distilled water/water softener pipe dream. I know of a big water softener/no bleed tower system going in close to me, and am hoping I don't have to deal with it. It is destined to fail, only a matter of time. I know of a hospital in the area that is taking their Dolphin out and going back to a phosphonate scale inhibitor, and a stabilized bromine biocide.

[YESITDOES]

good info!1

thanx!!!!!!!!!

yeah you should buy a bunch of those

[YESITDOES]

For closed loops, the Elysator does pretty good, but I don't trust the hocus pocus stuff or the distilled water/water softener pipe dream. I know of a big water softener/no bleed tower system going in close to me, and am hoping I don't have to deal with it. It is destined to fail, only a matter of time. I know of a hospital in the area that is taking their Dolphin out and going back to a phosphonate scale inhibitor, and a stabilized bromine biocide.

best way a hospital can go is with copper silver ionization, eliminating the need for biocide and killing legionella without chemical usage, best way for any tower really, now if only someone had a scale control unit that worked to combine with it........... oh and a liquid solid separator and sweeper jets in the tower basin.................. but never mind those dream thingy magnet things are just a dream anyway , just "hocus pocus" :callpro:

[waterworld]

best way a hospital can go is with copper silver ionization, eliminating the need for biocide and killing legionella without chemical usage, best way for any tower really, now if only someone had a scale control unit that worked to combine with it........... oh and a liquid solid separator and sweeper jets in the tower basin.................. but never mind those dream thingy magnet things are just a dream anyway , just "hocus pocus" :callpro:

Copper-Silver ionization? I hope your joking. If you put anything with copper into a closed loop then it may kill bio, but it will also plate-out on steel. Then guess what... galvanic corrosion.

As far as a mechanical device that is chemical free? Doesn't exist my friends. Never has and likely never will. Sure, it's easy to remove calcium from water using cathodic reactions however the electrolysis of water also causes SEVERE corrosion. You need to add azole to the system in order to protect copper... PERIOD. The Dolphin, that is the biggest scam in the history of water treatment. Let me guess, go out to your controller and the conductivity bleed setpoint is around 1-1/2 times city water. Well, that is 1.5 cycles and you could do that without any treatment, chemical or dolphin.

I have a Master's degree in chemistry and the claims the Dolphin makes are about as scientific as voodoo.

Why do you want chemical free? Is it because you want to feel good about yourself? Chemical treatments use organic materials, usually phosphonate. They are biodegradable and are about as dangerous to the environment as Dr. Pepper, (which is consisted primarly of Phosphates). And if chemicals can reduce your water bill by 50% vs the Dolphin, then which is the 'Green' solution?

Rule number 1 with the Dolphin: It works just as well plugged in as it does unplugged!

If you want studies, just ask. The POS is a nightmare! And BTW, the best way a hospital can go is Chlorine Dioxide, not anything copper. Seriously, if you are using copper you are destroying your equipment, and quickly. Rethink what you are doing before the bill for new piping comes due.

[YESITDOES]

Copper-Silver ionization? I hope your joking. If you put anything with copper into a closed loop then it may kill bio, but it will also plate-out on steel. Then guess what... galvanic corrosion.

As far as a mechanical device that is chemical free? Doesn't exist my friends. Never has and likely never will. Sure, it's easy to remove calcium from water using cathodic reactions however the electrolysis of water also causes SEVERE corrosion. You need to add azole to the system in order to protect copper... PERIOD. The Dolphin, that is the biggest scam in the history of water treatment. Let me guess, go out to your controller and the conductivity bleed setpoint is around 1-1/2 times city water. Well, that is 1.5 cycles and you could do that without any treatment, chemical or dolphin.

I have a Master's degree in chemistry and the claims the Dolphin makes are about as scientific as voodoo.

Why do you want chemical free? Is it because you want to feel good about yourself? Chemical treatments use organic materials, usually phosphonate. They are biodegradable and are about as dangerous to the environment as Dr. Pepper, (which is consisted primarly of Phosphates). And if chemicals can reduce your water bill by 50% vs the Dolphin, then which is the 'Green' solution?

Rule number 1 with the Dolphin: It works just as well plugged in as it does unplugged!

If you want studies, just ask. The POS is a nightmare! And BTW, the best way a hospital can go is Chlorine Dioxide, not anything copper. Seriously, if you are using copper you are destroying your equipment, and quickly. Rethink what you are doing before the bill for new piping comes due.

You are correct about this- DOLPHIN IS USELESS i have told ppl for years, just unplug it and see for yourself. However the cycles of concentration is irrelevant , the conductivity is the important factor, you can have cycles (as many as u want) with 1 or 2 grains and still not develop scale, or a few cycles of hard water and quickly scale based on DELTA-T. As for CU AG, you are extremely incorrect and or mis or un-informed. CU and AG will ruin equipment if the masses of dis-simaliar metals are higher while in a conductive medium, this is not the case with HVAC application. You need to research Dr Janet Stout and "16 cooling towers" or lets just keep you on CU AG ionization for now , i figure keep it simple as possible for now.What is POS??? Please do tell. Hopefully not another attempt to get ppl to think you sound like you know whats up, because i get and have gotten all this jargon for years ...... BTW i have never lost one of these debates So for now "It understands that CU and AG are the way to treat algae and legionella in a cooling tower environment" now.... "It places the keyboard in the basket":CU:

[waterworld]

Uhhh... POS, well it usually stands for Piece of Sh*t. Sorry to confuse you. Don't be so hostile. Galvanic corrosion is caused by copper, soluble or unsoluble, coming into contact with steel. Period! If you add Isothiazilone that contains copper, which it ususlly does, then it will kill bacteria and algae as well as corrode mild steel. Silver, usually in the form of Silver Nitrate is used to control Chlorides. As a matter of fact it is the only chemical way to remove the chlorine ion from water. So why are you using it again?

As far as cycles of concentration, I don't get your statement. Calcium is scale, but scale is not caused by calcium. Calcium percipitates out of solution in three ways.

The first, calcium carbonate is one of only a few molecules that is inversely soluble, ie it becomes less soluble the higher the temperature. So once you are above roughly 120 degrees, it is much less soluble than at 100 degrees - hence temperature causes the scale.

The second, alkalinity in the water determines how saturated a solution can become with CaCO3 before it falls out. 1 or 2 grains means absoutely nothing as far a scaling; over 120 ppm of bicarbonate alkalinity (P Alkalinity) means everything. You could have 1000 ppm of harness and it will not scale if the P Alkalinity is low enough, either by using sulfuric acid or because of natural elements that reduce pH. Here, high pH causes the scale.

The third, cathodically. If there is a cathode and anode created somewhere in the condensing water it will force CaCO3 out of solution where it will scale the cathode. This is common where sacrificial anodes are used. Here, electrolysis causes the scale.

My point is that cycles of concentrion, at least in Southern California cannot be acheived at a higher point than 1.5 without chemical treatment because of the low natural phosphate in our water and the high alkalinity. Cycles of concentration are directly related to how much water used in a condensing water system.

The calculation for how many times you can cycle city water without any treatment whatsoever is:

The square root of 11,000 / (M Alkalinity (in makeup) * Ca Hardness (in makeup))

And in case you didnt understand, the conductivity is directly related to cycles. If the city is 300 umhos and the tower is 600 unmhos, you are at TWO CYCLES.

And the Delta T?? The Delta T has no effect on scale, low Delta T at a 100% load merely lets you know that you have scale OR fouling of somekind. Delta T, the temperature differential between condesner supply and return reflects the efficiency of the condenser's ability to remove heat.

I am honored sir that the first debate you lost was to me... but like I said, I am a chemist and a water treatment professional. I design treatment programs for everything from cooling towers to power plants, so next time, please dont talk down to me. Thanks.

[waterworld]

Oh, and BTW, next time read what I said a little more carefully. I said Copper in a CLOSED LOOP guy, not a COOLING TOWER! And that cooling tower needs to have a stainless steel, ceramic, or fiberglass/plastic basin. A galvanized tower will react just as poorly as mild steel.

The only place copper-silver ionization is really effective is in potable water. You can use it in a tower, but... why? It's insanely expensive and ClO2 is more effective and at 1/10th the cost. Furthermore, most cooling towers running without acid are at a pH of roughly 8.8 to 9.1, this makes your copper-silver virtually ineffective. Read Dr Janet Stout, oh yeah; you said you already did. You must have forgot.

Chlorine Dioxide, gluteraldehyde, stabilized bromine, or dibromonitrilopropionamide... all of these or less expensive and much more effective in a cooling tower when implemented properly than the scheme you mentioned. Copper-Silver should really be used in a tower when in conjunction with acid to keep the pH low and in combination with low levels of Chlorine.

[YESITDOES]

Oh, and BTW, next time read what I said a little more carefully. I said Copper in a CLOSED LOOP guy, not a COOLING TOWER! And that cooling tower needs to have a stainless steel, ceramic, or fiberglass/plastic basin. A galvanized tower will react just as poorly as mild steel.

The only place copper-silver ionization is really effective is in potable water. You can use it in a tower, but... why? It's insanely expensive and ClO2 is more effective and at 1/10th the cost. Furthermore, most cooling towers running without acid are at a pH of roughly 8.8 to 9.1, this makes your copper-silver virtually ineffective. Read Dr Janet Stout, oh yeah; you said you already did. You must have forgot.

Chlorine Dioxide, gluteraldehyde, stabilized bromine, or dibromonitrilopropionamide... all of these or less expensive and much more effective in a cooling tower when implemented properly than the scheme you mentioned. Copper-Silver should really be used in a tower when in conjunction with acid to keep the pH low and in combination with low levels of Chlorine.

Correct about the PH level causing the CU to fall out, we never would attempt it past about 8.6 , we have rarely had that scenario with PH over the last 15 years, nor have we ever had corrosion problems in hot water boilers using CU at level of .05 to 2.O PPM , while killing bacteria. As far as the cost goes of CU AG that is based upon some of the systems you have looked at on the market obviously, this is not the case where we are involved. I most likely have seen and or heard about the products you are referring to. OH and this is all in fun BTW and i wasnt trying to be dis respectful or talk down to you

[waterworld]

Yeah I know, that's why I sent you over a friend request. This is all in good fun.

[fixitman]

<stuff deleted> Water treatment systems do use ultraviolet light to treat for microorganisms, but that won't help with scale deposition. Good luck, but if you find something, let us all know...

Ultraviolet will kill organisms, yes ... but you'd have to arrange for fairly bright ultraviolet to reach every surface in your system. That would mean keeping UV tubes nice and clean, and running, all while submerged. UV is not a solution for loops and towers, IMHO.

Ozone generators seem like they might be interesting. The dissolved Ozone would be expected to find its way everywhere in a system in the same way that dissolved chlorine or Bromine would - unless the molecule's half-life isn't long enough. Though the Ozone generator is a physical gadget, it would still be using chemical means to keep the water at low infestation. Not many people using ozone that I'm aware of, though. I'm curious about why.

[YESITDOES]

Ultraviolet will kill organisms, yes ... but you'd have to arrange for fairly bright ultraviolet to reach every surface in your system. That would mean keeping UV tubes nice and clean, and running, all while submerged. UV is not a solution for loops and towers, IMHO.

Ozone generators seem like they might be interesting. The dissolved Ozone would be expected to find its way everywhere in a system in the same way that dissolved chlorine or Bromine would - unless the molecule's half-life isn't long enough. Though the Ozone generator is a physical gadget, it would still be using chemical means to keep the water at low infestation. Not many people using ozone that I'm aware of, though. I'm curious about why.

Ozone has its place but not in a tower it is highly corrosive and will eat everything!! We have used copper silver for years and extremely low levels of household bleach (undetectable levels) to oxidize organics (dirt) if really the tower is in a dirty location. But normally we dont use anything but CU and AG and when used in combination with our other components it solves the problems associated with a cooling tower.

[YESITDOES]

Yeah I know, that's why I sent you over a friend request. This is all in good fun.

i tried to accept it but the site wont let me, maybe there is somebody who dosent want us to be friends ??:LOL:

[fixitman]

Ozone has its place but not in a tower it is highly corrosive and will eat everything!! We have used copper silver for years and extremely low levels of household bleach (undetectable levels) to oxidize organics (dirt) if really the tower is in a dirty location. But normally we dont use anything but CU and AG and when used in combination with our other components it solves the problems associated with a cooling tower.

Yeah - Ozone is a great oxidizer. Oxidizers have been in use for killing bugs for years. Why couldn't an ORP sensor keep the Oxidation Potential in line?

Sorry, but when I hear sentences including references like "... household bleach (undetectable levels) to oxidize organics (dirt) ..." and "... used in combination with our other components ..." my BS detector goes right up the flagpole. Explain to me, please, the actual chemistry behind the use of undetectable amounts of household bleach and its application. What is the half-life of an undetectable amount of household bleach in the tower water? I can put an undetectable amount of bleach in my tower by setting an empty bleach bottle on the roof next to it. It sounds to me like you have treated the dirt on your magic wand with an undetectable amount of bleach.

[YESITDOES]

Yeah - Ozone is a great oxidizer. Oxidizers have been in use for killing bugs for years. Why couldn't an ORP sensor keep the Oxidation Potential in line?

Sorry, but when I hear sentences including references like "... household bleach (undetectable levels) to oxidize organics (dirt) ..." and "... used in combination with our other components ..." my BS detector goes right up the flagpole. Explain to me, please, the actual chemistry behind the use of undetectable amounts of household bleach and its application. What is the half-life of an undetectable amount of household bleach in the tower water? I can put an undetectable amount of bleach in my tower by setting an empty bleach bottle on the roof next to it. It sounds to me like you have treated the dirt on your magic wand with an undetectable amount of bleach.
Hmmmm, seems like you may have an axe to grind. However you are correct with the ORP sensor and ozone but is not cost effective and a nightmare to maintain while used in a cooling tower. The half life of bleach yda yda yda..... LOOK- its as simple as this: Chlorine,bleach same thing whatever, is easily dissipated by aeration,sunlight while oxidizing "organics" rapidly, the CU and AG kills the bacteria and algae Im not so sure what it is about this that you are having such a hard time with :beat:

[fixitman]

Hmmmm, seems like you may have an axe to grind. However you are correct with the ORP sensor and ozone but is not cost effective and a nightmare to maintain while used in a cooling tower. The half life of bleach yda yda yda..... LOOK- its as simple as this: Chlorine,bleach same thing whatever, is easily dissipated by aeration,sunlight while oxidizing "organics" rapidly, the CU and AG kills the bacteria and algae Im not so sure what it is about this that you are having such a hard time with :beat:

I guess I might have a couple of axes to grind. It might also be said that I'm trying, admittedly in an edgy way, to do you a favor. I confess that I'm not intimately familiar with the product you seem to be selling. But I keep on bumping into posts where you're explaining it in terms that sound like they are designed to imply rather than explain. It's a trick that marketing people use to sell overpriced, underperforming junk to people all the time. Maybe you want to sound like that and maybe you don't - I don't know. I can only tell you how it comes off *to me* and that's what I did: It sends my BS detector right up the flagpole. It comes off to me like the way Eden-Pure electric heaters are hyped - and the crew that markets those is intentionally misleading people.

So, yes, I have an axe to grind with sly lying, used to dishonestly part people from their money. I have no idea whether you are actually engaged in that or not. The thing that disappoints me is that, by now, I've read enough of your sentences that I can ordinarily tell whether I'm reading BS or not. In this case, so far, I can't. Maybe that's my own overly-skeptical fault - Idunno.

The other axe I have to grind has to do with how readily people buy into hype that's just too good to be true. It's what keeps companies like Eden-Pure rolling in dough.

[fixitman]

Some interesting (to me, at least) info I bumped into while doing a little research about Ozone in cooling towers:

Relative Antimicrobial Disinfection Efficiency
OCl < HOCl < ClO2 < O3

Efficacy Impacted by pH:
HOCl = Strong O3 = Moderate ClO2 = Low

Relative Corrosive Potential:
ClO2 < HOCl < Cl2 < O3

OCl = Hypochlorite ion
HOCl = Hypchlorous Acid
ClO2 = Chlorine Dioxide
Cl2 = Chlorine
O3 = Ozone

So, Ozone appears to have both the highest Disinfection Efficiency and the Highest Corrosion Potential. It's interesting that, of these, ClO2 has the 2nd best Disinfection Efficiency, but the lowest Corrosion Potential. Also the least affected by swings in pH.

NaClO (Sodium Hypochlorite / Household Bleach) Is not among the substances listed, though it would be a source of OCl, the Hypochlorite ion. Also not listed are any of the Bromine compounds that are often used in cooling tower disinfection. It would be interesting to see a much more complete list of such chemicals compared in this way.

The most interesting bit for me in all this is that, among oxidizers, there are oxidizers that kill better without necessarily being more corrosive - something that is not intuitively obvious.

[waterworld]

Some interesting (to me, at least) info I bumped into while doing a little research about Ozone in cooling towers:

Relative Antimicrobial Disinfection Efficiency
OCl < HOCl < ClO2 < O3

Efficacy Impacted by pH:
HOCl = Strong O3 = Moderate ClO2 = Low

Relative Corrosive Potential:
ClO2 < HOCl < Cl2 < O3

OCl = Hypochlorite ion
HOCl = Hypchlorous Acid
ClO2 = Chlorine Dioxide
Cl2 = Chlorine
O3 = Ozone

So, Ozone appears to have both the highest Disinfection Efficiency and the Highest Corrosion Potential. It's interesting that, of these, ClO2 has the 2nd best Disinfection Efficiency, but the lowest Corrosion Potential. Also the least affected by swings in pH.

NaClO (Sodium Hypochlorite / Household Bleach) Is not among the substances listed, though it would be a source of OCl, the Hypochlorite ion. Also not listed are any of the Bromine compounds that are often used in cooling tower disinfection. It would be interesting to see a much more complete list of such chemicals compared in this way.

The most interesting bit for me in all this is that, among oxidizers, there are oxidizers that kill better without necessarily being more corrosive - something that is not intuitively obvious.

Chlorine Dioxide is excellent, especially in potable water. Another good thing is the cost, it is much cheaper in the long run that most other biocides. The only real expense is on the front end - a ClO2 generator. They run between 12 and 25,000 if I remember right.