MOLD detector??

[gillman-air]

I've got a customer that is concerned about mold in her house. What is the best way to confirm that mold is present. The h/o claims musty smell. I smell nothing. I installed system about 6 months ago. Humidity is around 45%. I know this sounds ignorant but is there some kind of mold test.

[Carnak]

You can get some one in there who can do air sampling,not cheap, most likely have to call some environmental firm.

You can try to find hidden moisture.

Check the links in this thread

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?threadid=63620

They showed how they found the source of musty odours in hotels etc.

This is not cheap at all.

[steveih]

FYI
There are test that can be performed. You can do spore traps or tape lifts. Spore traps are small cassettes that are attached to a small air pump to draw a known volume of air through them. As the air passes through the cassette, any air-borne material will become attached to a microscope slide in the center of the cassette. The slide has an addhesive that will trap these particles so a lab can view tham underneath a microscope.

Normally, you will use a cassette in each area of concern (the places where odors are) and one or two in an area of no complaints. Two additional ones are taken outdoors. The outdoor samples give a representation of the outdoor spore counts. The outdoor counts are used to compare with the inside ones. Obviously if there are different or higher spore counts inside, there is a probloem.

Tape lifts are used with visible microbial growth. Clear adhesive tape is used to tamp down on an area until the tape is no longer sticky. This is put on a microscope slide and analyzed in a lab for species and the quantity. I actually believe that his is totally unecessary. Why test for it if it is visible? The tape lifts are usually 20% more expensive too.

There are Industrial Hygiene services that do this work all the time. Yes it is rather expensive too.

As I have seen many times before with these posts, the only way to stop microbial growth is to stop the water intrusion and control the humidity. After it is stopped, then you can remediate the affected areas. Otherwise it is a never ending battle.

[bldgcode1]

where are you located? Call one of the following:

Industrial Hygenist - ask about compaction sampling. (air sampling, not always on casset, sometimes uses petri dish with growth media, but always has the pump).

Environment Consultant - again you need air sampling

Closest University with a Biology Lab program. - they many times love the chance to do this and most of the time the cost is small to nothing.

[airman1]

if you have a smell that was not there before the new equipment was installed ... remove the coil and coat it ... if the smell comes back you will have eliminated the ac as the source...

[Paul Pippin]

Did you change anything capacity wise? What is the discharge air temperature of the unit in cooling mode? Clean the coil with a microbiocide and see if the smell goes away. What about water standing in the bottom of the unit / drain pan? Mold growing on the coil? UV lights might take care of the problem.

[airman1]

uv lights WILL NOT take care of the problem..

[Paul Pippin]

It depends upon whether the smell or odor is coming from the coil. If it is something growing on the coil then properly sized and installed UV lights will make a difference, as far as killing whatever is growing on the coil.

[bldgcode1]

UV will kill what is on the coil, it also severly shortens the life of the Aluminum on the coil. (look at an old coil that has been outside for years, the AL flakes, chips, and is oxidized) when exposed to UV at close range the AL will simply oxidize more rapidly. Solve one problem, cause another.

[Paul Pippin]

how much will it change the life of the coil? 5 years? 10 years? does anyone have any information on the deteriation the coil will suffer?

[airman1]

who cares ... uv light shorten the life of the coil and do not eliminate mold ... only kills what it sees and is impossible to see it all in any circumstance ... just forget it ... you can get cleaner air a lot more effective without uv lights and spending less money ... you that believe here have been DUPED!!!

[Paul Pippin]

Airman I didn't mean to upset you but all I have seen so far is your words. Where is the documentation that a uv light destroys a coil? I have seen the documentation that certain UV lights destroy mold on coils and also destroy airborne mold. Since I am not a scientist I cannot confirm those facts. But if they do destroy a coil I would like to see the study that confirms it. From what was originally described it sounded like "dirty sock" syndrome, and as far as a mold test, there are tests that can be done but we all must face the facts that mold is everywhere and we cannot control everything. From my understanding there are only certain kinds of mold that give people problems anyway. Again I am sorry if I upset you I guess I just like to see documentation on things.

[bldgcode1]

pippen,

I just got off the phone with woman from Arcadia, FL. She had damage from from Hurricane Charlie and was told she had to leave her home immediately. There was Cladasporium and Stachybocis growing INSIDE her walls. Now the remeditation company has torn the house apart, opened walls, torn out and removed sheetrock. "Cleaned" the entire house, thrown out all her brand new furniture, her photos, and her cloths. They are done the house is rebuilt, and the air samples show more Spores than were there when they started.

This is after two months (8 weeks) of continous UV treatment, Ozone generator operation, and thousands of dollars of insurnace work. The UV treatment and Ozone treatment were completely usesless in the Insurance Companies opinion and now they are refusing to pay for all the work. So now the home owner has $65,000 to pay for work that most likely didn't need done. And then she has to replace her furniture and other belongings. I don't have the reports in my hands yet, but I bet I can tell you what they are going to say.

Tape samples will have counts before work of aroud 4000 spores per square inch. There will be 100-300 post work.
Air Compaction Test will show a range of 350-400 pre work and about 2200 after the work. Why? Because during this time of year in the geographic area where this house it, that is what happens. There are natural cycles, and the companies that are sensationalizing mold growth for economic gain haven't been around long enough to know what has happened historically. And they don't want the old timers in Mycology around to disclose what their long terms studies reveal. So the new "remediation" "Toxic Mold" sensationalist keep pushing more and more partial information out to convince everyone that mold is going to kill them. (The worst part of all of this is that the original samples were taken from inside a wall that had been wet for a couple of years because of a plumbing leak.)

So I think Airman and I are both just saying, READ ALL the material you can find. Not commercially published "studies" by manufactures of equipment and materials that are making money by telling everyone how harmful mold is. And how great their products are at getting rid of it.

[teddy bear]

I was involved with a 4 year mold study with. We monitored the ^F & %RH air tested every 3 mos. Generally, with no dust raising activity, wet space with active mold growth test low spore counts, dry space with no evidence of mold reflected outside spore counts. Dry space with dormant mold tested high spore counts. Any dust raising activity in any of spaces provided high spore counts. From this info, spore counts are were not reliable as final point. Any space where weeks of continuous high relative humidity was recorded always resulted in active mold growth. Any space maintained at <50%RH had no mold growth even with an occasional day of high humidity. From this info, I feel that monitoring %RH is critical. After a couple days of +60%, activate the mold alarm. Spore testing is too expensive and not reliable. Any restoration work must be supported with <50% RH and high capacity HEPA air filtering. When the job is complete, all may be lost after a couple weeks of +70%, even in an isolated area.

[bldgcode1]

Pippin and Airman,

I have been looking for some old test results from GE about AL degradation. They got into the study because their spiny fin coils would degrade in natural environment in 2+- years around coastlines. They bid on a group of Naval Housing rehabs and the Navy wouldn't allow the all AL coils because the salt spray and UV test they ran indicacted an averge coil life of 2.3 to 2.5 years in the coastal area.

The more harmful of the two, salt spray and UV, has been found to be the UV produced for testing longevity. IF and it is a big if, these studies were done in the early 80's I can find them I will post them or a link.

[Carnak]

Well in the salt spray envirnonment here, the all aluminum spinefin coils outlast copper/copper or any kind of treated coil coppertube/aluminum fin coil.

[bldgcode1]

Haven't found the US NAVY test yet, but came across a ARTI study that is pretty interesting.

The big thing I didn't like about the study is the readings of the bio's weren't tested at the recirculating fans. That and the sponsors won't even claim that the results are valid for anything. But they did say that a "well designed bank" made the biggest difference managing about a 50% kill rate. Then it states that the reflective duct in absolutely neccessary (metal not ductboard which has no reflectivity scale!)

http://www.arti-21cr.org/research/completed/finalreports/40030-final.pdf

Any way a really interesting article. My view is changed a little, but still basically what I have thought for years, the exposure time needed takes a "bank of lights" not a single point.

[Carnak]

Originally posted by bldgcode1

Any way a really interesting article. My view is changed a little, but still basically what I have thought for years, the exposure time needed takes a "bank of lights" not a single point.

Same as saying, it kills more when the fan is off and the light remains on?

[Paul Pippin]

I agree we should all read all of the information available, the problem I have had is just saying that the uv lights destroy the coils. I feel that if this were the case then all of the codenser coils in all of the equipment would be falling apart by now. As for the coils in certain environments I understand why they have problems. and yes a properly installed bank of uv lights is the only way to do any good, you can't just set a light in the ductwork.

[bldgcode1]

Coil degradation is a real problem, coatings have helped with it some, particularly on condensors. But the manufactures never expected the indoor coils to be exposed to UV. Especially to direct UV from a constant source. Now Trane and Carrier are both coating their indoor coils as well but I haven't read about any one else doing it yet (with UV protectant). I found the denial letter from the Navy for using GE spiny fin coils but can't find the report yet, I will keep looking.

Which brought another question to my mind: in the study the air is made to flow through an offset for exposure, which causes air turbulance. I don't see any control info about the air being passed through without the lights on and byaresol readings. I may have to write another letter asking about that.

In the documents from Dr. Kimbrough after filtration and just having a central fan running his reports show similar reductions - with no light, no cooling, no heating, just a fan and filter, when a dehumidifer was added the results were about a 60% reduction. I am now going to have read all his figures agian and make a table showing the reductions.

[bldgcode1]

I have completed a synopsis of a long term study on fungi (mold) counts done by UF over the last 11 years. James Kimbrough wrote the long response.

If you want a copy e-mail me and I will e-mail a copy of the synposis. If you want a copy of the long report I will snail mail them. (Brief Presentation version is 35 pages, full report is 976 and growing.)

[cem-bsee]

to the original question: hire a mold sniffing dog -- my rocket engineering friend stated he saw one demonstrated on TV last week --

[cxagent]

Originally posted by bldgcode1
I have completed a synopsis of a long term study on fungi (mold) counts done by UF over the last 11 years. James Kimbrough wrote the long response.

If you want a copy e-mail me and I will e-mail a copy of the synposis. If you want a copy of the long report I will snail mail them. (Brief Presentation version is 35 pages, full report is 976 and growing.)

BldgCode -

I would like to get an email of your synopsis. I didn't find your email address anywhere.

[James 3528]

I remember years ago when people actually cleaned their homes, you would hardly ever hear about mold.