Using Aircycler in Winter

[kevin2358]

I have a new house with a Aircycler installed. My question is by bringing in outside cold air during the winter, will that cause my furnace to "cycle on" more to compensate for the cold air coming in? Thus causing my gas bill to go up.
If so, does the benefits outweigh the added cost? And what are the benefits vs. not having one?

[rebehanish]

The benefits outweigh the problems that may be created by not having fresh air brought in. Please do not try to put a price on your health. Bring in some fresh air. However, there are many variables to your concerns.

[uktra]

Hpoefully you have the FR-V model hook up to a motorized damper. How much time the damper is open is determined by your location (how cold it gets in winter), how drafty the house, level of indoor humidity, and how much off gassing is happening in your new home. In winter, the air infiltration rate is generally the highest of any time of the year, so you would tend to bring in fresh air the smallest amount. In spring and fall you would bring in the most amount. With small amounts coming in the Winter should not effect equipment.

[pstu]

You have controls to adjust that Aircycler to select the amount of fresh air in, do you not? I am a homeowner who has just about decided to install the Aircycler, I've looked at the operating and installation manuals but haven't touched the actual hardware yet.
http://www.aircycler.com/Product%20Literature/Product%20Literature/frandfr-vuserguide.pdf

Presumably you have a tightly built house and the Aircycler is needed (at least in summer) to up the air exchange to ASHRAE standards. The ASHRAE committee may be smart people but they aren't gospel, just trying to play it safe. Joe Lstiburek has ranted against the fact few if any people worry much about out-gassing of construction materials, instead they let the materials makers save face and recommend diluting everything with fresh air. #2 on his list of "Top 10 Dumb Things to do in the South":
http://sustainable.state.fl.us/fdi/edesign/news/9609/lstibruk.htm

Certainly using too much fresh air will raise your utility bills, but shutting it off entirely will probably make your house less healthy. I'll bet that any common-sense setting in the middle will be something you can live with.

Hope this helps -- P.Student

[Xavier]

I am continually amazed and amused by all these Rube Goldberg HVAC inventions. What ever happened to KISS?

Does this product pressurize the home?

[Carnak]

Originally posted by Xavier
I am continually amazed and amused by all these Rube Goldberg HVAC inventions. What ever happened to KISS?

Does this product pressurize the home?


Yes Rube, just like your product does

[Xavier]

Carmak, as I have explained to you for years you are the only person who makes this incorrect statement. No qualified College Degreed Engineer, HVAC Technician, or a person with common sense have ever stated that my invention can pressurize a dwelling and to the contrary, report it is the only product NOT to pressurize the building!


So again, I will ignore all your comments and rely on people who have taken the time to complete formal training and have degrees.

Happy Box Day in your pressurized building.

P.S. We are all still waiting on how you pressurize your home, as you have never provided the data to support it! Perhaps you are using a Rube Goldberg device?

[Carnak]

I pressurize my office with something very similar to your device. A hood except it does not have a 'patented' flapper. KISS that Rube.

The problem now is, that the office has been totally gutted since the hurricane and the power has not yet been restored to the building.

Qualified engineers and techs have stated that your device is a positive pressure ventilation device. But you do not see it. Are there too many trees in the way Forrest?




[Edited by Carnak on 12-11-2004 at 08:39 PM]

[pstu]

If someone says the Aircycler is a Rube Goldberg invention, then I disagree. It performs a clear function and does it simply.

The Aircycler itself, runs the air handler fan. Does that pressurize a house? Not unless you have either
1) a deliberate duct to the return to input fresh air (FA), or
2) leaks in the return which let in air from somewhere outside the building envelope.
I would say it is the *duct* or the *leak* that pressurizes the building, not the air handler and last of all, not the Aircycler. Am I right?

It would be wise to note that in heating climates, pressurizing the house is bad news and the FA inlet method is inappropriate unless coupled with some method to exhaust air in greater quantity than the FA inlet.

However in hot-humid climates there is little value to *not* pressurizing a house. Exhaust air benefits little and it's not worth paying for in general. This is because outside air is generally hotter and more humid than inside air, and it's safe to blow interior air through random leaks because it is extremely unlikely to condense moisture (just the opposite of Xavier's home climate). That means balanced systems are hard to justify in terms of either benefits or costs.

The purpose of a FA inlet is to 1) provide fresh air to a tight house like ASRAE recommends, and 2) provice a deliberate positive pressurization to inhibit raw outside air from coming in. Generally the FA inlet helps any new air to be dehumidified by the AC or heating system, so it gets conditioned at an early stage.

I haven't studied Xavier's invention enough to understand whether it has intake air in greater quantity than exhaust air. Please don't be offended, but it seems so much a Northern area innovation that it is irrelevant to design in cooling climates, and life is too short to work too hard on problems I'll never see in real life. If indeed it pressurized a house in the North, that would be bad news, but it would be the opposite in some other climates.

Hope this helps -- P.Student

-- P.Student

[Edited by perpetual_student on 12-11-2004 at 10:09 PM]

[uktra]

Xavier--Hate to burst your bubble--but A degreed engineer has told you that your device does produce a positive pressure in the home when the air handler is running. Me. In fact if you would like to take a manometer and go with me into some homes with your device, I guarantee the home will be positive. Again you need to do more research and less posturing.

[Edited by uktra on 12-11-2004 at 10:03 PM]

[Carnak]

Originally posted by perpetual_student
If someone says the Aircycler is a Rube Goldberg invention, then I disagree. It performs a clear function and does it simply.

The Aircycler itself, runs the air handler fan. Does that pressurize a house? Not unless you have either
1) a deliberate duct to the return to input fresh air (FA), or
2) leaks in the return which let in air from somewhere outside the building envelope.
I would say it is the *duct* or the *leak* that pressurizes the building, not the air handler and last of all, not the Aircycler. Am I right?

It would be wise to note that in heating climates, pressurizing the house is bad news and the FA inlet method is inappropriate unless coupled with some method to exhaust air in greater quantity than the FA inlet.

However in hot-humid climates there is little value to *not* pressurizing a house. Exhaust air benefits little and it's not worth paying for in general. This is because outside air is generally hotter and more humid than inside air, and it's safe to blow interior air through random leaks because it is extremely unlikely to condense moisture (just the opposite of Xavier's home climate). That means balanced systems are hard to justify in terms of either benefits or costs.

The purpose of a FA inlet is to 1) provide fresh air to a tight house like ASRAE recommends, and 2) provice a deliberate positive pressurization to inhibit raw outside air from coming in. Generally the FA inlet helps any new air to be dehumidified by the AC or heating system, so it gets conditioned at an early stage.

I haven't studied Xavier's invention enough to understand whether it has intake air in greater quantity than exhaust air. Please don't be offended, but it seems so much a Northern area innovation that it is irrelevant to design in cooling climates, and life is too short to work too hard on problems I'll never see in real life. If indeed it pressurized a house in the North, that would be bad news, but it would be the opposite in some other climates.

Hope this helps -- P.Student

-- P.Student

[Edited by perpetual_student on 12-11-2004 at 10:09 PM]

Acutally X sells the perfect product for you p-student, especially if you do not need the combustion air intake. If you build a small home, connect one port to your return ducts and plug the second port. If you build a big house, connect both ports to your return.

[Xavier]

Uktra, first please explain how my invention operates in particular how and when the two flappers move.

Then explain how a furnace fan can "draw in" more air then it "pushes out" in two identical sized ducts so we all understand your degrees!

[uktra]

1. Your flappers open when the air pressure is greater on the outside of the building than the inside. 2. When you put a duct to the return you are now creating a pressure differential because air is now coming from inside the home as well as the outside. On the opposite side of the coin is when you have a duct from the supply side of the blower to the outside of the home. This pressure differential will cause the home to be negative compared to the outside. That is as simple as I can explain it in laymans terms, which in this case I deem to be paramount.

[Xavier]

Uktra, you have not explained how my invention works in particular how the "two" flappers function.

Please try again to explain my invention. Let me offer you a KISS analogy, as it appears you may require it. We know that Carmak has a lot of hot air, but I am still waiting for him to show a picture where he has "pressurized" a balloon or his house with a hole in it that is exactly equal to the opening to blow air into it!

Until you and Carmak can do this, I will continue to say my invention cannot pressurize a home!

It appears that you are violating all Engineering teachings—ASSUMING!

"That is as simple as I can explain it in laymans terms, which in this case I deem to be paramount"

[uktra]

Xavier--maybe I should have used "kindergarden terms" instead of "layman terms". I am sorry you don't understand, but before you call Armin Ruud a "Rube Goldberg" inventor (he holds 3 patents on HVAC controls, including AirCycler. and 6 other patents on energy effecient items, and is an associate of the Building Science Corp.) YOU HAD BETTER DO MORE RESEARCH AND LESS POSTURING. Kindergarden class is now over!

[Xavier]

Uktra, I have two patents and am working on two more, so again I do not understand your point.

I will use your previous statement to explain my invention so you can understand it. What affect would your explanation of having one duct connected to the return trunk and the identical sized duct to the supply trunk line on "pressurizing" a home when they both go to the outside?

This is why EQUALIZ-AIR is the only patented TWO-duct system and therefore cannot pressurize a home “BECAUSE BOTH FLAPPERS WORK TOGETHER. IF ONE IS OPEN 20 DEGREES THEN THE OTHER IS OPEN 20 DEGREES TO ALLOW AIR OUT!

It may help if you look at pictures! Go to US Patent Office and review my patents and any others.

Can you pressurize a balloon with a hole in it? If you can, I suggest you file for a patent too!

[Carnak]

Equal flow through equal areas requires equal pressure.

Is the pressure differential between the return duct and the atmosphere the same as the differential between the house and the atmosphere? Please postulate this.

Still waiting if the flow/pressure measurements are for the pressure differential of just the hood or are they based on some connected duct work as well.

You see the problem is that while houses can be much tighter than you have ever seen, they air not as tight as a balloon as you now postulate.

There are multiple little holes all over the place, remote from the vicinity of the furnace and when outdoor air is 'drawn' in, and then supplied throughout the house. You are typically delivering more supply air to these remote rooms than is coming back as return. This air does not build up a perfect pressure wave and foresake all other cracks in the envelope and look for your combustion air intake to utilize it as a pressure relief. If it does, then that would be something worth a patent.

You could license that technology to the Pentagon. The same techniques could be applied to the green berets and would make them quit wasting there time on the middle management and make an auotmatic bee line for Osama.

The air is going to escape everywhere that it can. This is how you are stopping drafts. You will be forcing air out the places where it used to naturally infiltrate in from as well as out the openings it normally escaped from.

The combustion air intake is not a pressure relief, especially when that furnace is firing. That furnace is a localized negative pressure area and it is going to pull air from everywhere, including your combustion air opening.

[Xavier]

Is the pressure differential between the return duct and the atmosphere the same as the differential between the house and the atmosphere? Please postulate this.

Carnak (I spelled it correctly this time), as you know I only and strongly recommend NO DELTA P between inside a dwelling and outside, thus your statement is irrelevant.

This is why I invented and "patented" my TWO DUCT system over 20 years ago! 1. To add additional outside air under controlled conditions, 2. Allow outside or inside air to flow through the second duct, as the dwelling requires it because the two flappers "concomitantly"! If the home requires more air then is being provided through the duct connected to the return, air will ENTER through the second duct. If the home is becoming positive by the furnace fan, air will flow OUT the second duct.

KISS!


P.S as every home is different, these statements/assumptions are based on all ductwork being in the conditioned space.

[Carnak]

Then you agree that more is drawn into the return air ductwork than would ever leave through the combustion air opening.

You would also agree then for this to be true, air is taking multiple paths out of the building.

If air can exit out the combustion air intake it is also exiting out of other cracks in the building envelope, which are also below the neutral plane.

The positive pressure your device creates allows all this to happen. Smooch!

You never recommend anything but neutral pressure, the problem is you do not understand that what you are selling is positive pressure.





[Edited by Carnak on 12-12-2004 at 12:00 PM]

[pstu]

I guess all on this thread are willing to get into a discussion of theoretical principles here. I have no dog in this apparent fight over whether Xavier's invention is a worthy item. I tend to think it is, although might require a bit of adjustment to be perfectly pressure neutral. It looks to me like this device more or less provides outside combustion air, which is in harmony with the best thinking for advanced furnaces these days. Gotta be a good thing, unless I am missing something.

It appears fairly certain the vacuum in the input will be greater than the positive pressure in the supply outlet. Am I right there? If so then with equal sized holes (and equal resistance in the ducts) the input volume will be greater.

This could be easily managed by having a larger outlet duct, if only one knew the actual pressures in the inlet and outlet. But it would take some experiments to obtain that info.

I can see it's highly undesirable to have *significant* random air leaks in a heating climate, from the inside to the outside. The main reason I've heard, is the inside air has a higher dewpoint and could conceiveably cause moisture to condense in a wall or some other harmful place. Exactly the same reason we *want* slight house pressurization in the hot-humid climates.

Any mismatched air flows with Xavier's device, it seems to me could be fixed by having an adjustment to either flow, with a balancing process. Not exactly plug-and-go, but a simple fix nonetheless. Alternatively, one could run a constant or cycled fan exhaust, again very conventional wisdom in a heating climate. While we may have a problem remaining with concepts, semantics, or whatever, it seems a solution is easily within reach.

Hope this helps increase the peace -- P.Student

[Xavier]

CARMAK

This is the final request for you not to post a reply to my comments and show you lack of knowledge and your false righteousness! If you want to post something, then post your comments and let the poster decide on whom they want to follow!

Go blow up the balloon with a hole in it (and then patent it) or presssurize you home!

THE END!

[Carnak]

Ever have a slow leak in your tire?

[Xavier]

Carmak, although I stated I was not going to waste my time on your statements, I cannot help myself on this post by you.

The answer to your question is Yes, and it is called EQUALIZ-AIR!

As I have been explaining to you and others for years how can you pressurize a home (or a tire) with my invention if the second duct (and my invention is the only product that has both an IN & OUT) allows air to LEAVE the home (just like the hole in the tire) under controlled conditions.

I hope this is the final response do your posts, but if you have any more like this one, I may want to respond!

The END END!

P.S. UKTRA, are you going to comment if you too can blow up (pressurize) a balloon with a hole in it like Carmak states he can!

[Carnak]

Analogy works for me X, pressure from the tire slowly leaks out to the atmosphere because it has a higher pressure than atmosphere, just like a house with an equalizair.

You can pump up that tire and drive on it.

[Carnak]

Originally posted by Xavier


As I have been explaining to you and others for years how can you pressurize a home (or a tire) with my invention if the second duct (and my invention is the only product that has both an IN & OUT) allows air to LEAVE the home (just like the hole in the tire) under controlled conditions.



X, your website only deals with stack effect when it comes to infiltration. You never talk about the wind effect.

So since you focus on the stack effect you understand the neutral plane.

With the stack effect air is escaping the house out of openings above the neutral plane, and infiltatring in at areas below the neutral plane. These are the drafts you feel in the winter.

So by your reckoning then, if the furnace fan is bringing enough air that that the house would be positive with respect to atmosphere, then the combustion air intake of your device is going to relieve pressure so as to limit the amount of positive pressurization.

Except your intake is below the neutral plane and therefore if air was to leave through your combustion air opening it would be also leaving through other openings and cracks below the neutral plane. This is what stops or limits the drafts.

Air is leaving through places where it would normally infiltrate in through because of the positive pressure.

And in the dead of winter when that furnace is firing, air will be entering through that combustion intake even though you have the ground floor under a slight positive.

[pstu]

Here is a real world example. Suppose you have a hole in your return plenum and it is 1.00 square inch in size. Inside that plenum vacuum measures 0.45 inch water column -- this figure was measured in my own house last summer, it's not ideal but reflects many real world plenums.

Now suppose you have a hole in a window 1.00 square inch in size. The pressure difference between the house and outdoors (let's assume no wind) is less than .001 inch water column. Is it not obvious the plenum hole will flow more air than the window hole?

Again I am not criticizing the Equaliz-Air in doing what it's supposed to do, am just focusing on a simplified version of the debate that you guys have chosen. If we move the discussion to real-world criticism of Equal-Air, I would look to quantify the pressures involved, which might lead to the conclusion this is a small pressurization problem compared to other common ones.

Hope this helps -- P.Student

[Carnak]

The Equalizair provides a home with fresh air and a combustion air intake for an adjacent fuel burning appliance.

You can install two separate hoods side by side and have the same thing, a positive pressure ventilation system with a dedicated combustion air intake.

In your example the plenum with the hole would draw in considerably more air.

We are arguing on how the system works. What is being argued is that the Equalizair is a positive pressure ventilation system that's all. The term 'positive pressure' is being argued.

I do not have a product for sale while X does. He uses every chance he has in here to put down competing products to his own.

It would be a feasable product in a hot humid environment such as your's P-Student. In a tight northern home it tends to drive moisture into the walls in the winter.

If X feels some one is less educated than he is, he get's quite arrogant and then when engineers correct him, the engineer's are always wrong.

[Xavier]

P-Student. I can tell by your questions you are beginning to view the building in its entirety. This has always been my approach.

Some comments to your questions:

First, the function of an HVAC system is to “condition the air” not heat it or cool it. Once you understand this, you will answer most of your questions.

Second, don’t be mislead by opinions on this site, you must take the time to research all the facts. Too often today most people treat the symptom not the root cause. An example of this is a by-pass humidifier.

I have been enjoying both your questions and the responses to this post. It appears that these “Johnnie come lately” are beginning to use terms that the rest of the industry has been using for twenty years including ”plane”! I also find it interesting in that may of the “new “ posts are plagiarizing my posts of several years ago. Should I consider this flattery or perhaps they are finally doing their research?

More on how and where air enters the home. Last week I went to dinner with a company that does both Blower Door and Infrared Thermography. I explain to them that I never supported a blower door test because of the “neutral plane” (not sure who will understand this statement). However, they explained they pull a vacuum on the building using the blower door at 50 Pascal’s and then use the new cameras to show the leaks. Sounds very interesting! As soon as I recover and am out of my wheel chair, I will observe the test procedure first hand to gain an understanding on how it exactly works. (No opinions only facts from Xavier)

My invention does not temper the incoming air, because by bringing in cooler outside air into the return air duct in the winter, actually increases the efficiency of the furnace. I cannot wait for the replies to this accurate statement (> Delta T),

Regarding your question on the 1 in holes, As every home is different this may not be true for all homes. However, the Principle is correct. Operating the furnace fan does not affect the Delta P between inside and outside the building if all the ducting is in the conditioned space. Furthermore, if there is an equal size opening for air to enter the forced air system and an equal size opening for the air to leave (my invention) the building this too will not affect the Delta P across the walls (not 100% acurate as my invention may allow flow if there is a Delta P accross the walls due to other conditions in the home " my second duct").

Based on your questions and comments it should not take you much longer to understand your entire home and the best way to “condition the air” in any climate.

Good luck, continue your research and base your decisions on facts and ROI!

P.S. you may want to read my prior posts to help understand how a home works and see where these "new posts" are quoting from.

[Carnak]

Originally posted by Xavier

Operating the furnace fan does not affect the Delta P between inside and outside the building if all the ducting is in the conditioned space. Furthermore, if there is an equal size opening for air to enter the forced air system and an equal size opening for the air to leave (my invention) the building this too will not affect the Delta P across the walls (not 100% acurate as my invention may allow flow if there is a Delta P accross the walls due to other conditions in the home " my second duct").


So close but so far away.

Assume no exhaust fans or clothes dryers are running.

The return duct work is connected directly to the outside via your invention. The supply ductwork is not connected directly to the outside.

Your product in conjunction with a furnace,makes the house into a SUPPLY PLENUM. The furnace supplies more air to the home than it draws from the home.

So this excess air exfiltrates out of the home. What causes this air to go outside?

[Edited by Carnak on 12-14-2004 at 12:44 PM]

[Carnak]

ROI


http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/hvac/169691_Hood.JPG

Install a pair of these or spend 6 times as much on an equalizair

[Edited by Carnak on 12-14-2004 at 01:21 PM]

[uktra]

Xavier--I am glad you are finally doing some research. Blower doors (I own one and use it in my business) can depressurize a building to 50Pa or can PRESSURIZE a building to 50Pa to calculated how much air is leaking out of the building. Kind of like a large air handler connected from the return to a duct to the outside of the home. If it is cold enough, let them take the manometer and show you the positve pressure upstairs and the negative pressure in the lower part of the home. Then go through the home and find the neutral area. Then take the manometer to your house and check the pressure differences in your home with the air handler off and on. You will learn something.

[Carnak]

Uktra

Can you use the blower door to determine how much air in or out can create a 2 Pa imbalance on a home?

Seems to be a magic number with FSEC

http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/bldg/science/mold/index.htm

Have to scroll down a ways to where they are talking about pressurizing homes in Florida

[uktra]

Carnak--It is hard to modulate a blower door to just 2 Pa. I think what they are trying to say is that even at a small depressurization of 2 Pa, in our climate, it will increase humidity to a great degree. When I take readings, I will take them at 30 Pa, 35 Pa, 40 Pa, 45 Pa and 50 Pa. I then refer to my pressure/cfm charts and average the readings. This is the most accurate way. A simple single reading at 50 Pa will still give a fairly accurate number of NACH in a home. Down here I recommend AirCycler a lot because it will sense when the air handler is off, let the coil drain and then turn only the air handler on when there is no temp. call. You can program this device for how long the air handler runs with no temp. call and how long the damper to the outside stays open (FR-V model).
This device can be use to mix the air in the home as well. The nice thing about this unit is it is only about $200.00-$300.00 installed with ducting and motorized damper/hood combo. In my opinion it is the best mechanical ventilation product for the money.

[Carnak]

You do the tests for rooms they protect with FM200 as well?

Last time I was home I tried to buy the blower door from the engineering lab at the local university. I knew it had been sitting there for a while, since the "Advanced House" Program in the region was cancelled.

Was the step beyond the R2000 home in Canada. They wanted to hold onto it, so no bargain was had. :(



[Edited by Carnak on 12-14-2004 at 10:34 PM]

[pstu]

>>Can you use the blower door to determine how much air in or out can create a 2 Pa imbalance on a home?

I had a blower door test done on my home which purports to tell me just that. It was done by Comfort Institute but the guys that did it gave me a hinky feeling they might not be that accurate, so you are invited to weigh in with any criticism.

This test done a year ago, said 5.274 ACH at 50 Pascals, and 409 CFM to pressurize or depressurize this house to 2 Pascals. That is somewhat above the flow rate recommended by ASHRAE for ventilation purposes.

What got to me in a negative way, was 1) they almost slipped and gave me a report with an obvious math error on it, and 2) the report seemed to try to baffle me with BS. One example is claiming 21 gallons/day water needs to be removed in summer to get down to 45% relative humidity, and 15 gallons/day needs to be added in winter to get UP to 35% RH. I monitor my humidity and winter conditions hardly ever get down to 35% RH, so I think that bit about adding 15 gallons/day is bogus. And with one bogus number on the report, it may be wishful thinking to trust other numbers on the report.

But the report does claim to offer an answer to your question.

Hope this helps -- P.Student

[Edited by perpetual_student on 12-15-2004 at 02:48 PM]

[Xavier]

Uktra, can you please explain the following statement in more detail as I do not “assume” as many poster do. Where is there a different Delta P? Inside to inside or inside to outside or what?

"Xavier--I am glad you are finally doing some research. Blower doors (I own one and use it in my business) can depressurize a building to 50Pa or can PRESSURIZE a building to 50Pa to calculated how much air is leaking out of the building. Kind of like a large air handler connected from the return to a duct to the outside of the home. If it is cold enough, let them take the manometer and show you the positve pressure upstairs and the negative pressure in the lower part of the home. Then go through the home and find the neutral area. Then take the manometer to your house and check the pressure differences in your home with the air handler off and on. You will learn something."


In addition, when will you respond to how you can pressurize a balloon with a “hole in it”? I am also still waiting for Carnak to provide his data! He does a lot of talking but no walking!

However, based on his last picture attempting to explain my invention and his lack of knowing of what “concomitantly” means, I suggest that all posters be careful in following any of his statements.

As soon as you explain where is the Delta P, my staff and I will respond.

P.S. Are you also using Infrared Thermography in your business? This is a much more valuable tool and provides more DATA! I have been using it for over 10 years.

[teddy bear]

Originally posted by perpetual_student
>>Can you use the blower door to determine how much air in or out can create a 2 Pa imbalance on a home?

I had a blower door test done on my home which purports to tell me just that. It was done by Comfort Institute but the guys that did it gave me a hinky feeling they might not be that accurate, so you are invited to weigh in with any criticism.

This test done a year ago, said 5.274 ACH at 50 Pascals, and 409 CFM to pressurize or depressurize this house to 2 Pascals. That is somewhat above the flow rate recommended by ASHRAE for ventilation purposes.

What got to me in a negative way, was 1) they almost slipped and gave me a report with an obvious math error on it, and 2) the report seemed to try to baffle me with BS. One example is claiming 21 gallons/day water needs to be removed in summer to get down to 45% relative humidity, and 15 gallons/day needs to be added in winter to get UP to 35% RH. I monitor my humidity and winter conditions hardly ever get down to 35% RH, so I think that bit about adding 15 gallons/day is bogus. And with one bogus number on the report, it may be wishful thinking to trust other numbers on the report.

But the report does claim to offer an answer to your question.

Hope this helps -- P.Student

[Edited by perpetual_student on 12-15-2004 at 02:48 PM]

Typically, you divide the 50 Pa number by 15-20 to get you leakage on a average winter day with a 7 mph wind. In WI you divide by 19 for 20 cfm air leakage rate. Warmer climates use a bigger number because there is less pressure because of the warmer temperature. During the summer, the only pressure on the home is from wind. Therefore, the ventilation rate decreases. 100 cfm of outside air at 70^F dew point infiltrating a home maintained at 75^F, 50% RH requires 100 pints per day of dehumidification. You should have a minimum of 50 cfm of fresh air when occupied throughout the year. This is 50 pints of moisture removal during cold dry weather and 50 pints of moisture load during warm wet weather. On a hot day the a/c should be able to remove the 50 pints and maintain <50%RH. On a rainy day, you need 50 pints of supplemental dehumidification to maintain <50%RH. 30-50 mph winds with rain and high outdoor dew point results in a +100 pints/day moisture load in most homes.

[pstu]

Carnak, earlier you wrote:
>>It would be a feasable product in a hot humid environment such as your's P-Student.
>>In a tight northern home it tends to drive moisture into the walls in the winter.

If you had to deal with a northern home that had positive pressurization caused by some known thing, and removing that thing were not an option, how would you fix the problem? Exhaust fan to negate the pressurization?

Just working through this as a thought experiment. Every problem has a pretty good solution I believe.

Thanks in advance -- P.Student

[Carnak]

In a tight northern home it is simple. The home is tight and stops the noticable drafts to begin with.

To have neutral pressure ventialtion you install two fans. One to supply air the other to exhaust in a controlled manner, with the fans balanced. You can recover heat using an HRV.

In tight northern houses you must also address combustion air requirements as well as make up air requirements for large exhaust appliances like an elaborate kitchen hood or a Jenn Air. Unless there is some kind of problem with Radon gas, intermittent negatives due to washroom fans or clothes dryers etc are not a problem as long as the combustion air is properly addressed.

Commercial buildings can typically have ventialtion systems that are slightly negative in the winter and slightly positive in the summer.

[Carnak]

Originally posted by Carnak
ROI


http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/hvac/169691_Hood.JPG

Install a pair of these or spend 6 times as much on an equalizair



I do not think these hoods even have dampers, so they would be like an equilizair with the cockamamie flappers 'concurrently' opened.

[mjballweg]

"Commercial buildings can typically have ventialtion systems that are slightly negative in the winter and slightly positive in the summer."

I've been wondering whether it would be practical trying to accomplish the same in a residence in a mixed-humid climate. It seems to me that there is plenty of info on maintaining a slight positive pressure during the summer but there doesn't seem to be much info on creating a slight negative in the winter. The potential consequences of being too positive in the summer don't seem to be nearly as bad as being too negative in the winter. It seems that ventilating with fresh air through the winter would create an undesirable positive pressure that you would try and control. Or, is this something that nobody should worry about? Any thoughts/ideas?

[Xavier]

As I stated, I would reply again to your “Posts” if you made another funny or inaccurate statement. However your quote below is neither, it is the first correct statement you have ever made and I am sure others will enjoy it and agree!

Originally posted by Carnak “I do not think…!”

My invention has improved the IAQ in thousands of homes and possibly saved lives. Your feeble attempts at my invention may cause someone not to do further research and could cause serious problems. Let the readers decide on what is best for them and please do not bloviate anymore!

[Carnak]

I am not arguing that a combustion air intake and a fresh air intake to the return air are a bad thing. I only dispute your claim that your device is a neutral pressure ventilation system when it is clearly a positive pressure one.

A powered intake with passive relief.

You like to question the "ROI" of HRVS, ERVs and other devices compared to your product so I am merely giving another opportunity to make an informed descision. There is a cheaper way to provide what you are selling. I am not in here with a product for sale with my website spammed in here. You must believe there is 'no such thing as bad publicity'. There is a general rule about divulging pricing in here but I will risk being censored and say that those hoods list for US $3.29 each.

A PAIR of intake hoods does the same thing as your product with the 'patented' flappers. I only mentioned "I think there are no dampers" because the Home Cheapo Online spec did not list a damper for the economical hoods, I did not have it in my hands to verify it. So before you call someone else's device a Rube, look at your product compared to a pair of intake hoods without a damper, exact same function.

[Carnak]

Originally posted by mjballweg
"Commercial buildings can typically have ventialtion systems that are slightly negative in the winter and slightly positive in the summer."

I've been wondering whether it would be practical trying to accomplish the same in a residence in a mixed-humid climate. It seems to me that there is plenty of info on maintaining a slight positive pressure during the summer but there doesn't seem to be much info on creating a slight negative in the winter. The potential consequences of being too positive in the summer don't seem to be nearly as bad as being too negative in the winter. It seems that ventilating with fresh air through the winter would create an undesirable positive pressure that you would try and control. Or, is this something that nobody should worry about? Any thoughts/ideas?

You want to hear a long winded one from a guy who spent about 37 years in a cold dry climate and six years and change in a tropical climate?

Maybe if I average them I can come up with mixed humid.

[mjballweg]

Originally posted by Carnak
[QUOTE]

You want to hear a long winded one from a guy who spent about 37 years in a cold dry climate and six years and change in a tropical climate?

Maybe if I average them I can come up with mixed humid.



I'm going to start a new thread, we mid-Atlantic types seem to reap the benefits of all climates!

[Xavier]

Carnak, the following two posts of yours clearly identifies your qualifications or lack there of! It proves most of your posts are at best “guesses.” To post a picture of a hooded dryer vent and state it will perform as my invention, proves you still do not understand my invention, but also you do not understand how a dryer vents works. Furthermore, to state you do not know if the dryer vent has a damper, but then you go ahead and list it, is another example of you trying to increase your number of posts rather then provide sound advice based on research or experience!

If you check our dates for signing on and then compare the number of posts we each have, unless you are a paid consultant, I find it unconscionable for you to continue to post replies based on your incorrect opinions and guesses that are only misleading the posters!

So for the umpteen time please stop commenting incorrectly on my posts and let the readers do their own research, unlike you who are only looking for how many posts you can have!

Originally posted by Carnak:

“I do not think…!”


"A PAIR of intake hoods does the same thing (INCORRECT) as your product with the 'patented' flappers. I only mentioned "I think there are no dampers" (AGAIN “NOT THINKING” ONLY GUESSING, ALL DRYER VENTS HAVE A DAMPER, WHICH SHOWS YOUR INEXERIENCE) because the Home Cheapo Online spec did not list a damper for the economical hoods, I did not have it in my hands to verify it (YOU ALSO NEVER PURCHASED MY INVENTION TO EXAMINE AND TEST). So before you call someone else's device a Rube, look at your product compared to a pair of intake hoods without a damper, exact same function (SHOWS YOUR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING AND JUST ANOTHER POST TO INCREASE YOUR NUMBER WHICH MISLEAD POSTERS)."


Finally, if someone where to follow your (INCORRECT) advise and install a dryer vent to the return air, the force would CLOSE THE DAMPER (which you do not know is in there) and NO OUTSIDE AIR would enter the home. This could give the homeowner a "false impression" of solving a negative condition in their home!

For the safety of the readers, please give it up!

[Carnak]

I 'guess' that you have never installed an HRV. I have put in 100s of them and the fresh air intake hood has no damper. I have also installed combustion air intake hoods which also have no damper.

If the economical hood posted with the 'plastic grille', turns out to have a damper, then one without a damper would be even more economical than $3.29 and have an even better 'ROI' than your product.

Two hoods with no dampers will perform the exact same function as your product.

Your device provides fresh air via positive pressure as well as combustion air.

Your device does not work the way in which you 'RECKON' or 'GUESS' that it does.

Why is every engineer or tech in here who disagrees with you wrong?

If you look at this thread, you will note I did not comment until you mentioned 'Rube' and 'pressurizing'.

[Edited by Carnak on 12-19-2004 at 09:30 AM]

[willing2learn]

I'm a little confused here, should'nt the houe have a slight pressure in the winter time?

[Xavier]

Unfortunately, you cannot ask Johnny anymore, but the answer to your question is simple if you have read the posts" "It depends on who you ask!"

[pstu]

Willing2Learn, the concept is that house pressurization will cause air leakage out of the house into unknown parts of the ceiling, walls, any part of the structure (from what I have heard, the majority will be thru the ceiling). Now imagine your air is at the ideal indoor level of temperature and humidity -- for my home it might be 48%RH, 72 degrees.

Take that air, pass it into the walls or attic where temperature is much closer to outdoors, and it will condense whenever it gets below 53 degrees. Any systematic source of liquid water in your walls or attic is going to be a problem.

Your location is probably colder and your indoor RH is probably way under 48%, but the principle holds. At some lower air temperature you will get condensation and that will lead to trouble with your house. I believe there have been actual case studies under real-life conditions which document this problem is a real one.

Now my objection to being phobic about Xavier's device is this: is the house pressurization significant enough to cause problems according to any of those case studies? Is there a low level of pressurization which overlaps what occurs naturally with wind, and therefore very unlikely to cause problems in the real world? I don't see how you can answer this type of question without measuring the amount of house depressurization. So I don't see that the accusation against Xavier's invention has been proven to be substantial -- the *concept* of pressurization certainly applies, but is is at all likely that the gadget will cause any problems?

It does provide a certain amount of make-up air which I understand would otherwise come in through random openings in the building structure, so that is a virtue. Analogous to the fresh-air inlets in AC returns which are common practice in my part of the country. At first non-professionals are appalled at the idea of letting in outside air, but what they don't realize is the inlet mainly just replaces what is coming in through random holes anyway.


Hope this helps -- P.Student

[uktra]

I terms of moisture going from inside to outside--that is happening anyway. Due to stack effect, warm air is leaving the upper part of the house anyway. Generally there is no problem if there is not a vapor barrier preventing the bldg. assembly to dry. The real problem comes when you have a tight house with high moisture and a high positive pressure. That is why tight homes should have mechanical ventilation that can control the amount of outside air (which controls humidity levels)coming in, like Aicycler.

[Edited by uktra on 01-25-2005 at 02:09 PM]

[willing2learn]

I really don't understand X argument. Speaking with Skuttle in reference to their 6 inch outside air duct system to return it was noted that there's a slight pressurizing in house when furnace is running, helping to eliminate drafts also providing fresh air, with this being the case where this product is refered to by many why the hell is X not satisfied that his product pressurizes the home?????? Secondly, how will X invention help with summer humidity coming in from the combustion air supply from his invention, after all the fan will run in AC mode causing dampers to open???

[Edited by willing2learn on 01-25-2005 at 08:31 PM]

[Carnak]

Originally posted by willing2learn
I really don't understand X argument. Speaking with Skuttle in reference to their 6 inch outside air duct system to return it was noted that there's a slight pressurizing in house when furnace is running, helping to eliminate drafts also providing fresh air, with this being the case where this product is refered to by many why the hell is X not satisfied that his product pressurizes the home??????

The only one who understands X's arguement is X.

[willing2learn]

I spoke with X on telephone and ask him a series of Question regarding his invention

1. If one have a home that is loose, already providing make up air due to infiltration, Will his product help or create more of a draft? His reply help, "eliminate draft!"
2. If one is to open a window next to furnace about an inch is this not the same effect as his product? His reply, "Yes and NO, window should only be opened 1/2 inch to provide combustion air"

[uktra]

If the term "Eliminate drafts" means to lower cold air streams that are felt by the homeowner, then any positive pressure ventilating device (including Equalized air) can help. This is not the same thing as not increasing infiltration, which all positive pressure ventilation devices do when "on". Energy use will increase with more air leaving the home. That is why one needs to control the amount of ventilation to satisfy IAQ and humidity levels, but not over ventilate. That always has been the problem with 1978 solutions to 2005 problems.

[Carnak]

Originally posted by uktra
This is not the same thing as not increasing infiltration, which all positive pressure ventilation devices do when "on".

I always like to think of it as overpowering infiltration, more so on commercial buildings.

[willing2learn]

So in other words using one of these ducting system will cause infiltration, LOL, if that's the case it's better to have a sealed combustion system or isolate room from living space then open (as Diceman would say) a window next to furnace 1 inch, oopss! ("1/2 inch per X data") or the big bucks HRV unit.

[Edited by willing2learn on 01-26-2005 at 01:11 AM]

[Xavier]

Thanks guys as I am really enjoying this (LOL). See below for answers to some of the comments:

Carnak: The only one who understands X's arguement is X.
"The quality of my performance, sometimes depends on the quality of my audience."

Willing: As we discussed all we are trying to do is provide a "controlled" way for outside air to enter the home to replace the inside air that is leaving! This will increase the comfort level of the home. Unfortunately, all one hose systems will pressurize the home because there is no "Controlled" opening (EQUALIZ-AIR second hose can flow IN or OUT!) for the excess air to leave! That is why my two hose system will not pressurize a home! In the early 80's I advised homeowners that they can disconnect my invention, however since 1985, with the issues of IAQ I recommend that they leave it connected. Again with my second hose any excess air (Pressurized) has a way out!

Here are other analogies: how many ways can you add gas to your car and how many pounds of s---, can you put in a two pound bag? These two explain what is required for all homes today!

Finally, there is no energy savings to the homeowner with a one hose system! Only EQUALIZ-AIR with the two hoses can! (I am “assuming” everyone understand this!)

Student, I do not understand your statements.

So until all those Rube Goldberg devices can do what the picture shows, I will continue with my invention and problem solving! NO DELTA P = NO FLOW!!!!!!!!
http://members.aol.com/equalizair/candle.jpg

[Carnak]

Originally posted by Xavier

Carnak: The only one who understands X's arguement is X.
"The quality of my performance, sometimes depends on the quality of my audience."


I think you would be a big hit with children. Consider being a magician at a kid's birthday party. :)

[uktra]

Willing2learn--you hit the nail on the head. Separating the furnace in a tight room and putting a ducted small positive pressure (Xavier--in kindergarden terms that means blowing air from outside to inside)in that room, you eliminate backdrafting and energy use increase. Putting more holes in buildings to let air out when the furnace is suposidly pulling air in is ludicrus.

[willing2learn]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Xavier
[B]Thanks guys as I am really enjoying this (LOL). See below for answers to some of the comments:



Willing: As we discussed all we are trying to do is provide a "controlled" way for outside air to enter the home to replace the inside air that is leaving! This will increase the comfort level of the home. Unfortunately, all one hose systems will pressurize the home because there is no "Controlled" opening (EQUALIZ-AIR second hose can flow IN or OUT!) for the excess air to leave! That is why my two hose system will not pressurize a home! In the early 80's I advised homeowners that they can disconnect my invention, however since 1985, with the issues of IAQ I recommend that they leave it connected. Again with my second hose any excess air (Pressurized) has a way out!


How will your invention provide combustion requirements if one hose is attached to return plenum and the second hose that is to be used for combustion air is sending air out of the house????

[Xavier]

Willing:
"How will your invention provide combustion requirements if one hose is attached to return plenum and the second hose that is to be used for combustion air is sending air out of the house????"

This question indicates you are learning. It is also one of the most common questions on my invention. The second duct of my invention is not connected to the furnace; it simply hangs down the basement wall. Because it is NOT connected to a fan, the airflow is "Passive" and will only flow IN or OUT based on a pressure difference between inside the home and outside.

So in you question, lets assume that someone has been going in and out of the home opening the doors. By opening the doors, it will eliminate any pressure difference and therefore, there will be no flow through the second duct of my invention. However, lets assume the gas hot water tank comes on, then inside air is leaving the home and outside air must enter! Then flow through the second duct may begin to provide combustion air to the hot water heater. Or if the furnace comes on, inside air will go out the chimney and if the doors are closed AND more outside air is required for the home then is coming into the return duct, flow may begin through the second duct of my invention (assuming it is the path of least resistance). Finally, lets assume that more air is coming in the duct to the return air because the furnace fan is running then the home requires, then air can flow OUT of my second duct to "Equalize" eliminate any positive pressure!

What do you think of the picture? It has taken me nearly ten years to stop the stack affect air losses in this home, as I did not build it. It has outside air for the fireplace, dryer, hot water and furnace and I do not operate exhaust fans when it is below 35 degrees F! I keep asking the other "experts" for data/pictures and they never provide any – just opinions!

Perhaps I should become a magician, and then for my first trick, I could make “things” disappear!

[Carnak]

Originally posted by Xavier

The second duct of my invention is not connected to the furnace; it simply hangs down the basement wall. Because it is NOT connected to a fan, the airflow is "Passive" and will only flow IN or OUT based on a pressure difference between inside the home and outside.



With you so far, assuming front and back doors open. Not on the same wall if you will.


Originally posted by Xavier


So in you question, lets assume that someone has been going in and out of the home opening the doors. By opening the doors, it will eliminate any pressure difference and therefore, there will be no flow through the second duct of my invention.



With doors open would not be anything going through an equalizair, a pair of $3.29 hoods, or a skuttle with an additional combustion air inlet.


Originally posted by Xavier


However, lets assume the gas hot water tank comes on, then inside air is leaving the home and outside air must enter! Then flow through the second duct may begin to provide combustion air to the hot water heater.



The doors are closed now correct. Furnace is off. Air exfiltrating from the home, whether it is up a draft hood/chimney or through cracks above neutral plane. This will cause air to passively enter through both ports of an equalizair reducing the negative pressure in the home.

The equalizair does not tell every other crack below neutral plane "Hey, I'm in charge now, please magically close off". But the amount of air passing through those openings will reduce significantly as there is a pair of openings providing a parallel flow path below the neutral plane into the building.

A pair of $3.29 hoods will provide the same passive inlet. The skuttle with a combustion air intake will do the same thing.

Less drafts felt. The passive openings reduce the negative pressure, so less infiltration in through the other cracks.


Originally posted by Xavier


Or if the furnace comes on, inside air will go out the chimney and if the doors are closed AND more outside air is required for the home then is coming into the return duct, flow may begin through the second duct of my invention (assuming it is the path of least resistance). Finally, lets assume that more air is coming in the duct to the return air because the furnace fan is running then the home requires, then air can flow OUT of my second duct to "Equalize" eliminate any positive pressure!



Furnace comes on and air is getting mechanically drawn into the return air duct. More air is supplied to the rooms than is drawn back as return. Areas where there are supply registers are all slightly pressurized.

This pressure is relieving itself to the outside where ever it can. It goes out through cracks above the former 'passive neutral plane' as well as those below the old 'passive neutral plane'. No drafts from the ground floor window sills.

This pressure does not say "Hey let's foresake all these other cracks and go find that combustion air intake"

With a wide open basement, the areas around the furnace and water heater will be negative. It will pull air from wherever it can, so it will pull some from the basement and some in from the combustion intake. Upper levels are pressurized and basement is still negative. Some air comes from upstairs, some from outside.

Furnace/water heater in their own room, most of the combustion air is coming from outside, even with the rest of the home positive.


Originally posted by Xavier


What do you think of the picture? It has taken me nearly ten years to stop the stack affect air losses in this home, as I did not build it. It has outside air for the fireplace, dryer, hot water and furnace and I do not operate exhaust fans when it is below 35 degrees F! I keep asking the other "experts" for data/pictures and they never provide any – just opinions!

Perhaps I should become a magician, and then for my first trick, I could make “things” disappear!


I think the picture shows it was a calm mild overcast winter day in Michigan. A picture with manometer readings would mean something.

About to rebuild my office, will have some photos for you that you are going to enjoy.

Concerning no exhaust fans when it is below 35F, I guess either your $hit doesn't stink, or you hold it until you go to work at your day job.

[uktra]

If you think you have stoped stack effect in your house Xavier, you are in total denial of the real world.

[willing2learn]

.


Concerning no exhaust fans when it is below 35F, I guess either your $hit doesn't stink, or you hold it until you go to work at your day job.


This is not nice

[Carnak]

Take Rube out of Box :)

http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/hvac1/187479_DSCF0648.JPG

Will be a while before electrical power is restored, but the new improved office reconstruction c/w upgraded pressurization scheme should be completed before Easter.

[willing2learn]

Originally posted by willing2learn






.


Concerning no exhaust fans when it is below 35F, I guess either your $hit doesn't stink, or you hold it until you go to work at your day job.


This is not nice

[Carnak]

Originally posted by willing2learn

Originally posted by willing2learn






.


Concerning no exhaust fans when it is below 35F, I guess either your $hit doesn't stink, or you hold it until you go to work at your day job.


This is not nice

Sorry, heard you the first time.

I guess he just "Opens the Window"

[uktra]

Carnak--you just wasted $29.95. Do you know how many Caronas that is? Not to worry, the 15% energy savings the "gimmick" will provide should have you swimming in Caronas! Or better yet, use the savings and buy X a manometer. Don't forget the owners manual!

[Carnak]

Originally posted by uktra
Carnak--you just wasted $29.95. Do you know how many Caronas that is? Not to worry, the 15% energy savings the "gimmick" will provide should have you swimming in Caronas! Or better yet, use the savings and buy X a manometer. Don't forget the owners manual!

Lol, got it for free.


A US $40 dollar value!

[uktra]

Carnak--I hope you mean $39.95. I hate to think X charged too much. How did you wangle the freebe? X that desperate to be proven wrong?

[Carnak]

Here are some options, you guess which one actually happened.

A) X sent me one for Christmas, mail service is slow so I just got it.

B)Someone bought one in Canada, installed it and immediately their door locks froze up. They called my father to remove it and install an HRV for some neutral pressure ventialtion. Dad mailed it to me.

C) A disenchanted homeowner who frequents this group could not get a refund from X, so out of spite he/she emailed me for my mailing adress and sent it to me.

D) Some one in posession of the device thought it would be funny if he/she gave me it.

E) A group member here bought one at a yard sale for $5 and mailed it to me.

[dash]

I'll go with "D".

Are you going to mail it to me now???

[Carnak]

Originally posted by dash
I'll go with "D".

Are you going to mail it to me now???



Sorry, we can't make it into the travel gnome, I am going to install it.

[Edited by Carnak on 01-28-2005 at 01:33 PM]

[uktra]

I am betting "C"

[Xavier]

Willing as we discussed last week, I attached a file with the letter from the U.S. Department of Energy on my invention. I wonder if any other “Hole in the wall” product has the support of the U.S. Dept of Energy?

http://members.aol.com/equalizair/natas.pdf


Sorry it took so long but I was requested to attend an energy show this weekend and explain how a home works. It is still amazing that when I ask the hundreds of people in the audience where the air that is leaving the dryer comes from; they still say the “Dryer?” Then when I ask where the smoke from the fireplace comes from, one half answered the family room. Then when I ask why does the rest of the house get cold, they did not know. Finally, when I ask then about the bathroom exhaust fan and why not to use it, they again do not understand. One person said they do not use theirs anymore, because the flappers are “frozen” shut and there are icicles, hanging down the wall.

This is why I just ignore Carnak and the other experts and keep telling homeowners to 1. Open a window in the Winter (see all the posts on CO and MOLD), 2. Do not use the bathroom fan below 35 degrees F (see all the post on moisture in the attic and MOLD). If I can inform one homeowner it is worth all the "BS" from the so called experts!

Charles, you are still confused on exactly how the furnace moves the air in your home; so keep up your research.

P.S. your one comment was inappropriate

[Xavier]

Carnak, I have requested many times (and others) for you to stop responding with your “opinions” to my posts. Now that Canada finally gets Fox, let the readers decide!

You have stated last year that “you quit” and you are not honoring your word (AGAIN) and furthermore your responses to this thread clearly show you lack the following:

INTEGRITY
Does not walk the talk.

ONLY RESPONDS TO THE WORDS NOT THE QUESTION/STATEMENT
Never answers the question only Bloviates!

DOES NOT READ MANUFACTURE'S INSTRUCTIONS
EQUALIZ-AIR clearly states on the BOX and Instructions,“FORCED AIR FURNACES ONLY!”

So again, please do not respond to my posts and if you want to be a “champion” on putting a hole in the homeowner’s wall then also direct your inappropriate comments to all the other products including Condar, Plusaire, Hoyme, Skuttle and Aircycler, otherwise it will prove you may require professional help!

Finally, I find it very interesting that all these so called experts DO NOT provide any information on their profile or credentials! Why are they hiding, if they are confident with their answers? The next time I am on TV, Radio or in the press, I would gladly provide their names for an opposing viewpoint, if they did not HIDE them!

P.S. I have quit reading your e-mail last year!

[uktra]

Xavier--I suggest you check out the DOE's Building America program, Why don't they use your device?--again you need to do less posturing and more research.

[Carnak]

I guess that rules out that X sent me one for Christmas.

[uktra]

Carnak-I still bet on "C"--By the way, from the look on your picture, if you need help installing the "gimmick" I will bring the caronas!

[Carnak]

Originally posted by uktra
Carnak-I still bet on "C"--By the way, from the look on your picture, if you need help installing the "gimmick" I will bring the caronas!

Actually dash guessed correct with "D". They sell some Coronas here as well as Red Stripe and Labatts.

[pstu]

Xavier what do you think is wrong with the AirCycler? They have made it plainly clear that product's goal includes air mixing within the house for more even temperature, humidity, etc. And it serves a purpose of getting to ASHRAE 6.2 standards of ventilation during the mild months when neither heating nor cooling is called.

I find your exchange with Carnak to be a distraction, however I have no objection to your product for the purposes to which it is suited.

Best wishes -- P.Student

[Carnak]

Originally posted by Xavier
Willing as we discussed last week, I attached a file with the letter from the U.S. Department of Energy on my invention. I wonder if any other “Hole in the wall” product has the support of the U.S. Dept of Energy?

http://members.aol.com/equalizair/natas.pdf



Charles, you are still confused on exactly how the furnace moves the air in your home; so keep up your research.

P.S. your one comment was inappropriate


The letter says at least you are providing a combustion air intake. The same as the $3.29 hood.

I think Charles was quoting an 'inappropriate' comment by me, and saying it was not nice.

[Carnak]

Originally posted by perpetual_student
Xavier what do you think is wrong with the AirCycler? They have made it plainly clear that product's goal includes air mixing within the house for more even temperature, humidity, etc. And it serves a purpose of getting to ASHRAE 6.2 standards of ventilation during the mild months when neither heating nor cooling is called.

I find your exchange with Carnak to be a distraction, however I have no objection to your product for the purposes to which it is suited.

Best wishes -- P.Student

P.Student

This thread has been hijacked ever since the air cycler was called a Rube Goldberg. Don't waste your time reading it then if you find it distracting.

[uktra]

I have plenty of objections with Xaviers "gimmick". It is a poor way to provide makeup combustion air. It is a very poor way to mechanically ventilate a home. He samlously promotes this piece of junk and then has the temerity to call real products that are being used in advanced homes all over the country as "Rube Goldberg devices" using his wonderful catch phrase "were is the ROI". He needs to "get a grip".

[Edited by uktra on 02-01-2005 at 09:54 PM]

[pstu]

It was hijacked all right, and Xavier was the one who started that. Upon his early "Rube Goldberg" post, that would have not been a hijacking had it resulted in an attempt to discuss that statement, but that has not occurred.

People in general have learned a lot since 1978 about buildings and air quality. Today it seems stupid to have a furnace simply pulling interior air for its combustion needs, and good practice is well recognized to have outside air supply for that. I'm from the hot humid South but that's right I think. For houses which are still so backward as to use 1970's construction methods, Xavier's gadget is cheap enough and provides a partial solution. But Xavier is only being self serving by being in hype-hype-hype mode about selling his gadget in the 21st century. For any house modern enough to get its combustion air from outside the building envelope, it does not seem to be the best solution to a real world problem.

That said, it does take more than one person to hijack a thread.

Regards -- P.Student

[Edited by perpetual_student on 02-02-2005 at 08:56 AM]

[Carnak]

I am not arguing that it takes two to tango p-student, but the point is if you find the thread distracting, then quit reading it.

[Xavier]

Will someone please explain why it is acceptable to have the audacity to commit on my invention but it is not acceptable for me to comment on others.

Uktra, please provide similar approval on the products you “believe,” offer a better investment (ROI) to the homeowner!

http://members.aol.com/equalizair/natas.pdf

Having over 25 years of experience in IAQ, a Bachelor of Science Degree and a Masters Degree in Finance qualifies me to say if they are a Rube Goldberg. What are your qualifications to comment on my invention?

STUDENT
If you will reread all of my posts, there is one common thread in every one. What I am hyping is know and control your indoor air! If I help one homeowner to avoid Carbon Monoxide or Mold, even if they do not buy my invention, then all the notes are worth it! I thought you understood this by some of your posts. I am confident in my invention and it sells based on its total value to the consumer, but it may not be the right product for all homes! As stated in the last note, “Let the buyer decide what is best for their home/application after doing some research.”

However, today there are far too many products that are Rube Goldberg designs. That is, they use more of our limited natural resources then they save! Yes, today we can build a home that could be heated by a 100-watt light bulb, or cooled by a glass of ice tea, but when you calculate the TOTAL cost of the building and the operating costs, it becomes a Rube Goldberg.

For example, alternate fuel cars have been around for over 20 years and it is not until recently they have become total cost competitive (ROI). So, when you do your analysis on Aircycler or any product include the TOTAL cost to ensure it has a positive ROI otherwise you could be wasting our resources.

I have read the information on the Aircycler but am not sure I completely understand the logic

However, how/where does the extra air (Positive pressure) introduced to the return air LEAVE?
This is my question for all “one hose” systems for all temperatures.

P.S. Operating a dryer periodically will provide air movement/exchange in the home at no additional investment (KISS)!

Carnak, I too agree your posts are inappropriate and will drive readers away. Furthermore, how can anyone send you a “Boxing Day Card” when you hide your identity and will not list your credentials like so many other “experts”?
You all do this because?

VERY PROFESSIONAL POST Carnak: "if you find the thread distracting, then quit reading it."

THE END!

[uktra]

Pstudent--Xaviers "gimmick is not cheap! The additional energy burden by installing his device makes it very expensive. As far as a partial solution to make up air for combustion--not in some cases. Example-- a strong 30 mph wind on the opposite side of the building's intake duct causing a negative pressure on the intake side. The air handler comes on and now the opening next to the combustion opening is pulling air. How much air is reaching the furnace? Since it is not directly hooked up to the furnace, how much of the air used for combustion is from the duct? The only way to correctly solve the problem without putting holes in the home is to section off the furnace as airtight as possible and duct air under pressure to that space.

[uktra]

Xavier--How about this logic--If your gimmick at $40.00 is so great, why don't the Building America homes save $260.00 and use your Equaliz-Air? The problem is you don't WANT to understand Aircycler!!

[Edited by uktra on 02-02-2005 at 11:16 AM]

[Carnak]

Well Mr K---t, I mean X, I had my profile filled in a long time ago, before the 'credentials' which you only recently filled in, were added to this site. You have seen my profile as that is where you got my email address from.

I do not think it is necessary to boast about education, where as you seem to need to do so to make yourself feel important.

I am not spamming an overpriced hunk of plastic in this group and slamming every competing product like you do. I just call your device for what it is, no different than installing a pair of intake hoods for 1/6 the cost of your device.

The only person getting an ROI on an Equilizair is you!

In looking at your device, as I hold it in my hand, I do not see how it could meet any building code.

Are you going to answer me now or will it be your alter ego 'informedhomeowner'








[Edited by Carnak on 02-02-2005 at 11:45 AM]

[Carnak]

How much combustion air will it pass X?

What size induced draft furnace could it supply?

[pstu]

>>how/where does the extra air (Positive pressure) introduced to the return air LEAVE?
>>This is my question for all “one hose” systems for all temperatures.

It leaves the house through whatever random openings exist in the building structure. Every house has a certain amount of openings, my blower door report from the Comfort Institute says the "optimum" amount for my house would be 262 square inches. My house was measured at half again as much.

[Somehow I can almost hear you gasping in disbelief, am I correct? Are we to pretend the house is hermetically sealed like a Thermos bottle?]

The Aircycler is intended to control fresh air input to the forced air return. The fresh air duct is supposed to be sized (and dampered if necessary) to provide outside air in amounts that ASHRAE 6.2 standard recommends. Are you at all familiar with ASHRAE 6.2?

This supply-only approach is designed to systematically provide a slight positive pressure to the house, which has the effect of inhibiting outside air infiltration through the attic or other sources. This is a good thing in a hot-humid environment, and you probably would never want to apply this method in a cold environment. In a cold environment the accepted good or best practice can be accomplished by one of these designs:

1) steadily running an exhaust fan -- e.g. a bathroom fan. In this scenario, the outside air comes IN via the same random openings that exist in every house. This is probably cheapest to build (not so cheap to operate). Or...

2) a "balanced" system which pumps air in through one opening, and out through another. You pay for the intake port, an exhaust port, and some ductwork. While this sounds ideal to the naive, I am not so sure it is optimum. Or...

3) for more money, an ERV can do both intake and exhaust, and transfer heat and/or humidity from one airstream to the other to save energy. Of course the upfront cost is substantial.

>>Operating a dryer periodically will provide air movement/exchange in the home at no additional investment (KISS)!

Have you considered whether that would satisfy ASHRAE 6.2 requirements? While the dryer exhausts a muscular amount of air (think I read around 200 CFM) it runs such a small percentage of the time that I think that's not a good suggestion. Not to mention the electric or gas consumption directly associated with operating the dryer. A rather better idea would be #1, above.

Unless we decide to drop the subject, in future posts I would like to discuss the amount of air that should be transferred from outside to inside. We can discuss ROI there as well.

Hope this helps -- P.Student

(P.S. I had earlier written a more comprehensive post but my computer tends to lock up at the most awkward moments and it was lost.)

[Edited by perpetual_student on 02-02-2005 at 07:46 PM]

[pstu]

The AirCycler is designed to be part of a "Central-Fan-Integrated Supply Ventilation System". It works via a duct from the outside (filtered) to the return plenum of a central air handler. You might well use this method in a hot-humid climate but an exhaust system would be preferable in a cold climate. As I see it, one half of your product does that. But the airflow required for good ventilation, is rather higher than could be expected of the Equaliz-Air.

What amount of ventilation is the AirCycler designed for? Approximately the amount recommended by ASHRAE. That is designed to meet the comfort needs of 80% of the population and is the greater of:
1) 15-20 CFM per person (I've seen 2 different books with slightly different numbers), or
2) .35 ACH, Air Changes per Hour based on total house volume.

Often one assumes two occupants in the main bedroom and one in each bedroom additonal one, or possibly 60-80 CFM for a small 3-bedroom house.

The AirCycler is generally used with a 6-inch duct from a fresh outside air source, to the return plenum of the forced air system. A damper is used to adjust the amount of airflow when the fan is running, often the airflow is damped down to approximately the level of a 5-inch duct. Actual airflow in a specific installation is highly variable according to the negative pressure (vacuum) in each system's plenum, and also according to the runtime of the air handler. You have to measure both return vacuum (or fresh air duct airflow), and system runtime in order to get any decent results. To do otherwise is making a stab in the dark.

Lstiburek's first experiment used a system with very high return vacuum, a 4-inch duct, and got 47 CFM. Clearly one needs a larger duct to achieve ventilation that ASHRAE 62 recommends. I have not seen an Equaliz-Air up close so will have to ask whether the duct to the return is larger or smaller than 4 inches. That will give some indication of its flow capacity.

Obviously the runtime of the air handler depends on how much heating or cooling is being required on a given day. That is where the AirCycler comes in. Most of the time there is plenty of heating and cooling calls in the extremes of winter and summer, the problem comes in the mild months. The AirCycler mandates the central fan run a minimum percentage of the time. The AirCycler FR in addition, closes the damper when runtime exceeds a desirable maximum, to prevent over-ventilation and excessive energy bills.

(Some people choose to run their air handler 100% of the time. This leads to trouble in hot-humid climates, but is OK in drier ones. In such a case you would size the fresh air vent accordingly, and an Air-Cycler would be superfluous.)

I believe it would require multiple Equaliz-Air devices to do as much ventilation as ASHRAE recommends. I don't yet know the airflow numbers that combustion requires in a furnace, but I would want to measure what the Equaliz-Air delivers to see if it measures up to that need.

I observe that DOE letter acknowledges the benefit of Equaliz-Air in those cases where the house is tight enough to interfere with combustion appliances. That's quite a narrow market. People who have done that to houses are already halfway to the point of making people sick if not actually killing people. Based on what I know of Building Science, they have put themselves in an emergency condition.

Hope this helps -- P.Student



[Edited by perpetual_student on 02-04-2005 at 09:41 AM]

[Carnak]

P-Student

When homes are under regular heating and cooling conditions, fresh air intakes sized for something similar to 0.3 ACH per hour will operate intermittently and will provide a lot of fresh air. I would say it would be in a similar ball park as if there was a 15 CFM per person constant ventialtion rate, perhaps slightly lower.

The air cycler would be most advantageous in the 'in-between' seasons.

As far as what passes through an Equalz-Air, keep posted on this site. I will be putting one to the test. I will even 'crank-it-up' to see what happens with your -0.45" return static.

Should be up and running by Easter if all goes well.

Concerning houses being so tight as they need a combustion intake, it is a lot more common than you think.

In looking at the Equaliz-Air though, as a passive combustion air intake, I think it will not meet code in many places in the USA, especially those where the fuel gas codes are based on NFPA 54.

[pstu]

I will be looking forward to seeing some measurements on this! My return vacuum has been improved down to a much better level since a substantial additional return was added, now total ESP is in the .50-.60 range (think filter is loading up now). But Lstiburek's 1st experiment was even worse as I remember.

Now that you have an Equaliz-Air, what size *are* the holes anyway?

Thanks especially for straightening me out as to house sealing and combustion appliances. I cannot prescribe the right thing to do, but it seems to me there should be a solution recommended by a professional. It would surprise me if that solution resembled the EqualizAir, but who knows.

That 2nd hole opened when the air handler runs, what effect might that have? The first hole with tube to the plenum, will serve to pressurize a house, just how much will vary depending on house tightness. Why would they do that in a 1970's scenario (when the gadget was designed)? The second hole would let air out in very small proportion to the intake, as the whole-house pressure would be a tiny fraction of the return plenum vacuum. Is that it? Is that all there is?

If the goal is to equal the intake air, some kind of motor assist is needed for the exhaust side. Right?

I understand clearly enough the problem that the AirCycler is designed to solve, and it's apples and oranges vs. the EqualizAir. Still trying to get my hands around the problem that the EqualizAir is designed to solve.

Thanks -- P.Student

[uktra]

Pstudent--You are now understanding why Carnak and I and others have been so critical on Equalized air. It doesn't solve problems, it creates problems. Ventilation is a subjective item. What ASRAE recommends are for average homes in both size and construction. What if you have a very large home with non-voc, low offgassing non-alergenic building materials? Do you need 20 cfm/person? Probably not. Aircycler and other products like it can control how much ventilation, and proper mixing/distribution by proper control of the air handler. As far as makeup air for combustion, the best way is to air seal off the furnace and put air under pressure into that space. In new construction sealed combustion takes care of the problem.

[pstu]

Uktra, I am beginning to see your side more clearly now. It was key in my mind, that one of the questions on the table was "What does the AirCycler do?" because I could make a stab at answering that. It was meant for the climate I live in, and it's less foreign than the climate the EqualizAir was designed for.

I imagine Xavier holds little enthusiasm for measuring what his device does vs. what is needed. There may not have been a better idea around in 1978 but the world has advanced in many ways since then. Perhaps now it is clear that AirCycler is not a rival, that it does an entirely different job, and that every AirCycler function is there for a purpose, the question no longer interests him. Xavier?

>>What if you have a very large home with non-voc, low offgassing
>>non-alergenic building materials? Do you need 20 cfm/person? Probably not.

I have heard Lstiburek make that argument, but only just. One of the ironies is that the 0.35 ACH (air changes/hour) part of ASHRAE 6.2 will specify a ventilation rate much higher than 20 CFM/person. In my case 0.35 ACH translates to 215-220 CFM and it's a 3-bedroom home with 3 people (and 2 dogs) living in it. Of course I am not experienced at measuring offgassing...

Thanks very much -- P.Student

[Xavier]

Please continue this as I am enjoying it LOL

Carnak: “How much combustion air will it pass X?”

More then the Aircycler, Skuttle 216, all other one hose systems and of course Carnaks dryer vent COMBINED!
Also, none of them will meet the new building code requirements for Combustion Air, including your "high tech" design!

"What size induced draft furnace could it supply?"

Any furnace using a 4 inch exhaust or less. Remember the inverse relation between volume and temperature!

Pstudent, it appears you are falling into the same problem as your colleagues. Do not answer the “words” answer the question/statement. For example, most dryers have “AIR ONLY” option on them. Therefore, running the dryer in that mode will bring more air in then the Aircycler, HRV/ERV and most other systems AT NO ADDITIONAL INVESTMENT to the Homeowner! Although my invention is 25 years old it is still the only product that provides BOTH Make-Up and Combustion Air! The wheel has been around for more then 25 years and it is still being used!

So step back from the Tree and look at the Forest, (before you provide your comments), the view is much better!

Carnak: remember to remove the flapper on the combustion side of my invention (Patent #1 dated 1984 to meet the "NEW" building code) before you run your tests. And finally, I assume you will test ALL other products or it will confirm that you have a serious problem.

[Carnak]

X

If I follow your patent to cut out your patent, and remove the damper in the inlet used for combustion air, what size of an induced draft furnace can your device legally supply combustion air to.

You are the manufacturer of a device that people are buying. People need to be safe so how much air WILL, and not "CAN", it supply.

Your answer of any furnace using a four inch or smaller exhaust is ludicrous and dangerous to the Public.



[Edited by Carnak on 02-06-2005 at 10:21 AM]

[pstu]

>>More then the Aircycler, Skuttle 216, all other one hose systems and of course Carnaks dryer vent COMBINED!

Xavier are you just chest-thumping, or is there really something behind what you say? Your device has a pipe to the return about 4 inches diameter, am I right? How could it possibly pass more air than one 5-6 inches in diameter?

Also, are you really claiming the AirCycler passes a certain amount of air? Because the AirCycler is actually not a duct, it is a control system for a central fan. The FR-V model adds control for a damper, to prevent excessive outside air intake. The amount of outside air intake is chosen by the designer/installer, within wide limits.

>>...running the dryer in that mode will bring more air in then the Aircycler, HRV/ERV and most other systems...

Xavier, are you saying the design which ventilates the largest quantity of outside air, is the best? I would never advocate that. Rather, I would say one designs for a certain amount of air, and you don't want a lot more *or* less.

>>Also, none of them will meet the new building code requirements for Combustion Air, including your "high tech" design!

As far as I can tell, the AirCycler and HRV/ERV designs have nothing to do with providing combustion air, they are for entirely different purposes. Would you have combustion appliances burn conditioned air from inside the house?

But I would certainly like to know more about these building code requirements for combustion air (anybody's reply would be equally welcome). This is a stretch for me, we generally don't provide explicit combustion air for appliances in my region. I'm not bragging, but what we usually do is locate them in either a ventilated attic, or a garage. So I have not got the background advantage of seeing these things all my life in neighbors' houses.

Thank you -- P.Student

[Edited by perpetual_student on 02-08-2005 at 10:22 AM]

[Carnak]

Originally posted by perpetual_student


I am looking forward to the manufacturer's comments on combustion air requirements

[teddy bear]

Originally posted by uktra
What ASRAE recommends are for average homes in both size and construction. What if you have a very large home with non-voc, low offgassing non-alergenic building materials? Do you need 20 cfm/person? Probably not. In new construction sealed combustion takes care of the problem.
20 cfm per person is reasonable number for purging the pollutants we generate, CO2 plus whatever, and provide oxygen.

[uktra]

What I was trying to point out is that good ventilation needs to be "amount controlled". The amount depends on tightness of home/humidity levels, construction materials, size, and the individuals sensitivity to air quality. Just hooking a duct from outside to the return like the "gimmick" creates over ventilation in winter and not enough in spring and fall.