AC/HP installed offers on ebay.

[jack black]

I found ebay seller selling installed Lennox 15SEER HP with tax credit for 60-70% of the price local Lennox dealer quoted me.
Good deal or scam?

[Mr Bill]

I found ebay seller selling installed Lennox 15SEER HP with tax credit for 60-70% of the price local Lennox dealer quoted me.
Good deal or scam?

My first question would be, if they are even worth their weight in sand, why ebay? and why such a discounted price? if a company is not busy enough that they have to resort to ebay "unless they just started the business" that would send a flag up for me.

[skippedover]

There are thousands of offers out there and if you shop, you can find someone to install a system for you for even less than the e-bay offer. After all, cool is cool, right? What do you care who's name is on the box?

But the things you need to question aren't on e-bay. Will the system be properly sized? Will the sytem be properly installed? How will you know if you're not an expert in HVAC??

e-bay is for commodities. Toaster, electric irons, hair dryers, pencils, paper, etc., virtually anything that you can open the package and plug it in or put it immediately to work. But once you cross the line to something that must be professionally installed in order to work correctly, you really need to ask yourself if you want to risk several thousand dollars on a product that needs to be built! Imagine if you purchased an engine for a car through e-bay. Now you've got to have someone actually build the rest of the car. How fussy would you be then? Would you trust the guy who's seeling the engine for 60-70% less than Toyota, Mazda, Ford, whoever, to build you that car? Or would you want to go to a highly qualified mechanic who charges 60-70% more than the e-bay guy and gives you all the guarantees, warranties and system designs to do the job?

An HVAC system needs to be BUILT! The name on the box is only the 'engine'. But the whole system needs to be designed and put together by the company that sells you the 'box'. So if you think e-bay is the way to get the design, installation and reliability for your HVAC "car", then have at it. But what you'll ultimately find out is that the local dealer is working on a very small profit margin (certainly NOT 60-70%) at the end of the job and the e-bay advertiser, is cutting more corners than a cabinetmaker making round tables.

[rzyzzy]

There are thousands of offers out there and if you shop, you can find someone to install a system for you for even less than the e-bay offer. After all, cool is cool, right? What do you care who's name is on the box?

But the things you need to question aren't on e-bay. Will the system be properly sized? Will the sytem be properly installed? How will you know if you're not an expert in HVAC??

e-bay is for commodities. Toaster, electric irons, hair dryers, pencils, paper, etc., virtually anything that you can open the package and plug it in or put it immediately to work. But once you cross the line to something that must be professionally installed in order to work correctly, you really need to ask yourself if you want to risk several thousand dollars on a product that needs to be built! Imagine if you purchased an engine for a car through e-bay. Now you've got to have someone actually build the rest of the car. How fussy would you be then? Would you trust the guy who's seeling the engine for 60-70% less than Toyota, Mazda, Ford, whoever, to build you that car? Or would you want to go to a highly qualified mechanic who charges 60-70% more than the e-bay guy and gives you all the guarantees, warranties and system designs to do the job?

An HVAC system needs to be BUILT! The name on the box is only the 'engine'. But the whole system needs to be designed and put together by the company that sells you the 'box'. So if you think e-bay is the way to get the design, installation and reliability for your HVAC "car", then have at it. But what you'll ultimately find out is that the local dealer is working on a very small profit margin (certainly NOT 60-70%) at the end of the job and the e-bay advertiser, is cutting more corners than a cabinetmaker making round tables.

Yup... lets put this cat back in the bag... the internet is "evil" because it allows consumers to figgur out how much things cost - and how much they're paying the installer...

Oh, yeah... time for the "steak analogy"....

Would you take a steak to a restaurant and ask them to cook it for you??? :beat:

Except... everyone can easily find out how much steaks cost... yet, somehow grocery stores didn't put restaurants out of business..

[hvacvegas]

Yup... lets put this cat back in the bag... the internet is "evil" because it allows consumers to figgur out how much things cost - and how much they're paying the installer...

Oh, yeah... time for the "steak analogy"....

Would you take a steak to a restaurant and ask them to cook it for you??? :beat:

Except... everyone can easily find out how much steaks cost... yet, somehow grocery stores didn't put restaurants out of business..
:ban:

Right, except that the only difference between steaks are quality. The differnces on a new furnace install are: quality of furnace, warranty of furnace, quality of install, ammount of metal-working involved, difficulity of gas line/high voltage, thermostat choices, staging...and the list goes on and on...each one effects price.

[cturman]

How can an ebay seller sell a unit "installed".

There a lots of ads in the papers that advertise 50% off. That usually includes all the federal rebate, all the utility rebate and a manufacture rebate. It will work out to be a fair price.

If you get it off ebay it may be to install yourself. It is a moderately big job with special tools.

Best I can tell is the installation is usually about equal in price to the equipment.

[martyinlincoln]

When the little voice in your head says it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.

[rzyzzy]

:ban:

Right, except that the only difference between steaks are quality. The differnces on a new furnace install are: quality of furnace, warranty of furnace, quality of install, ammount of metal-working involved, difficulity of gas line/high voltage, thermostat choices, staging...and the list goes on and on...each one effects price.

Until the trade finds a way to "weed out" the bad apples, who expect to get paid like rock-stars for low quality work, you can't blame the public for just picking the "cheap" contractor. Odds are, even a half-baked install is still as good as what the builder put in.

I'm not saying it's right, it is what it is. Rarely does a day pass on this very forum where a consumer pays big money for a garbage install.

True story...

My Father and I did (most) of an install (including metal ductwork, wiring, + natural gas piping) for my parent's new house about ten years ago. When the indoor coil gave up the ghost last summer, the contractor they hired all those years ago told Pa that "whoever ran those refrigerant lines did a pi$$-poor job".

Dad said... "that's too bad... it was one of your guys!"

The entire family laughed whenever they went into the basement for all those years - you could tell exactly what the "pros" did and what we did. The "pro" work was sloppy. Functional... but really sloppy.

The contractor still got the job - they've done work for my parents for over 30 years now - that one furnace+AC job is the only job they didn't get in all of that time.

You never win by getting grumpy with a potential customer. Just because they can't afford you now doesn't mean they won't ever be able to hire you - or that they don't value your work.

[cturman]

I'm always amazed that everyone on this board believes you should only buy the best when it comes to HVAC.

Does everyone here drive a Mercedes and live in a safe gated community?

If you get the cheapest price for an AC system you may get a POS. You can also get that if you pay big bucks. My best recommendation is go with a company recommended by your friends. If you don't know what they used post a question on Face Book.

Word of mouth is the best advertising. Keeps the contractors from getting lazy also.

[just_opinion]

I'm always amazed that everyone on this board believes you should only buy the best when it comes to HVAC.

Does everyone here drive a Mercedes and live in a safe gated community?

If you get the cheapest price for an AC system you may get a POS. You can also get that if you pay big bucks. My best recommendation is go with a company recommended by your friends. If you don't know what they used post a question on Face Book.

Word of mouth is the best advertising. Keeps the contractors from getting lazy also.

Or call your loca BBB (better Business Bureau)

[wahoo]

Bear in mind that most if not all of the HVAC companies void the warranty on any equipment purchased over the internet. So if you buy a POS unit and have a problem, well you can keep the box for what good it'll do you. What kind of idiot would quote you a replacement system OVER THE INTERNET....think a minute about it! Only a friggin moron would do that and hey, if you jump on the same boat as a moron, where are you?

[jack black]

A follow up:
I emailed the seller with some questions but the message bounced back because he was delisted from ebay.
I guess he was a scammer.
There are 2-3 sellers remaining but doing local installs outside my area. The delisted one was based in Jacksonville FL.

[jack black]

What kind of idiot would quote you a replacement system OVER THE INTERNET....think a minute about it! Only a friggin moron would do that and hey, if you jump on the same boat as a moron, where are you?

Well, lets just say that the 4 local quotes I received so far were from salesmen who didn't look at the system themself, except for finding out what the existing tonnage is.
I don't see a difference here.
Are you saying that majority in you profession are morons?

[skippedover]

I'm always amazed that everyone on this board believes you should only buy the best when it comes to HVAC.

Does everyone here drive a Mercedes and live in a safe gated community?

If you get the cheapest price for an AC system you may get a POS. You can also get that if you pay big bucks. My best recommendation is go with a company recommended by your friends. If you don't know what they used post a question on Face Book.

Word of mouth is the best advertising. Keeps the contractors from getting lazy also.

You're way off the mark. Nobody is saying for a minute that people should always buy a Mercedes. If it were that simple, problem solved. The big difference between your analogy and mine would be that let's imagine for a minute that you CAN'T buy a car all assembled. Let's assume that the best you can do is get a price on e-bay or the internet for car engines. Okay, so you know the price of the engine. But that's not a whole car. That's not built. That's just the engine. Buy it, put it on the floor of your garage and make noises, vrrrrrrrrrooooommm; vvvvvvrrrrrrroooooommmmmm. Doesn't go ver fast does it? Doesn't go anywhere in fact. Now, how much attention would you pay to selecting the mechanic who's shop is going to actually BUILD the car, even using your engine. How much do you think you've saved by purchasing the engine on-line? And would you shop for the cheapest bid to build your car?

That's the analogy you need to make. It isn't about buying an engine. Yes, we mark up the engine purchase to make enough profit to stay in business. So now let's assume that we mark the parts up zero. Give them to you for cost. You get a better price from an HVAC contractor than you can get on-line. Great. Now what's the labor rate to install the system? Suppose the installer needs to make $XXX that day. That's his pay. Oh and he has to pay for the telephone, the truck, insurance, tools, you get the idea. So if we don't mark up the parts, how much do we charge per hour of work? It all comes out in the end. Except, maybe you just hired the cheapest mechanic because you think all the higher priced ones are ripping you off!! Yuk, yuk, yuk. We'll just laugh at you, stuck on the side of the road, with tires falling off, brakes that don't work (good thing the tires fell off, eh?) doors that fall off and gas mileage of 2mpg. Good move. Hire the cheapest mechanic.

[jhallinstaller]

You're way off the mark. Nobody is saying for a minute that people should always buy a Mercedes. If it were that simple, problem solved. The big difference between your analogy and mine would be that let's imagine for a minute that you CAN'T buy a car all assembled. Let's assume that the best you can do is get a price on e-bay or the internet for car engines. Okay, so you know the price of the engine. But that's not a whole car. That's not built. That's just the engine. Buy it, put it on the floor of your garage and make noises, vrrrrrrrrrooooommm; vvvvvvrrrrrrroooooommmmmm. Doesn't go ver fast does it? Doesn't go anywhere in fact. Now, how much attention would you pay to selecting the mechanic who's shop is going to actually BUILD the car, even using your engine. How much do you think you've saved by purchasing the engine on-line? And would you shop for the cheapest bid to build your car?

That's the analogy you need to make. It isn't about buying an engine. Yes, we mark up the engine purchase to make enough profit to stay in business. So now let's assume that we mark the parts up zero. Give them to you for cost. You get a better price from an HVAC contractor than you can get on-line. Great. Now what's the labor rate to install the system? Suppose the installer needs to make $XXX that day. That's his pay. Oh and he has to pay for the telephone, the truck, insurance, tools, you get the idea. So if we don't mark up the parts, how much do we charge per hour of work? It all comes out in the end. Except, maybe you just hired the cheapest mechanic because you think all the higher priced ones are ripping you off!! Yuk, yuk, yuk. We'll just laugh at you, stuck on the side of the road, with tires falling off, brakes that don't work (good thing the tires fell off, eh?) doors that fall off and gas mileage of 2mpg. Good move. Hire the cheapest mechanic.


well said and did the online "shop" run load calculations .. manual j,d you know prove to you why said system was EXACTLY what you need???

what about duct work ..... or putting that new "motor" in an old pinto just sayin.... good work aint cheap... cheap work aint good! end .

[jhallinstaller]

Well, lets just say that the 4 local quotes I received so far were from salesmen who didn't look at the system themself, except for finding out what the existing tonnage is.
I don't see a difference here.
Are you saying that majority in you profession are morons?

made up your mind already HUH?

[rzyzzy]

well said and did the online "shop" run load calculations .. manual j,d you know prove to you why said system was EXACTLY what you need???

what about duct work ..... or putting that new "motor" in an old pinto just sayin.... good work aint cheap... cheap work aint good! end .

Expensive work often isn't good work in the hvac trade either. I had several quotes for my new system, and all proved to be taking short cuts that would have impaired it's performance.

Manual "j"???

none of the local guys wanted to bother with it.

[AtomicLush]

Well, I've had installers that did do a manual J calc and installers that didn't. Both are all over the board in their recommendations.

3 installers = no load calc.
105k btu (95% single stage) + 3 ton (16 SEER)
90k btu (80% 2-stage variable) + 2.5 ton (14/16 SEER)
75k btu (95% 2-stage NON-variable) + 3 ton (13/14.5 SEER)

2 installers = yes load calc.
75k btu (95% 2-stage variable) + 3 ton (14.5/16 SEER)
90k btu (95% 2-stage variable) + 3 ton (14.5/16 SEER)

As a homeowner who has no experience with HVAC systems, how do I know who's right and who's wrong? There's more consistency in the AC portion, but the furnace recommendations have been everywhere. So rzyzzy - I don't know if homeowners really know a manual J is actually necessary because there's a good chance that someone might be using it wrong.

[ebierley]

Well, I've had installers that did do a manual J calc and installers that didn't. Both are all over the board in their recommendations.

3 installers = no load calc.
105k btu (95% single stage) + 3 ton (16 SEER)
90k btu (80% 2-stage variable) + 2.5 ton (14/16 SEER)
75k btu (95% 2-stage NON-variable) + 3 ton (13/14.5 SEER)

2 installers = yes load calc.
75k btu (95% 2-stage variable) + 3 ton (14.5/16 SEER)
90k btu (95% 2-stage variable) + 3 ton (14.5/16 SEER)

As a homeowner who has no experience with HVAC systems, how do I know who's right and who's wrong? There's more consistency in the AC portion, but the furnace recommendations have been everywhere. So rzyzzy - I don't know if homeowners really know a manual J is actually necessary because there's a good chance that someone might be using it wrong.

One thing to remember is that different brands break down their sizes differently. If Brand X only has 70K and 90K and you need 72K they will quote the 90K. Brrand Y may have a 75K furnace.

[hvacvegas]

Well, I've had installers that did do a manual J calc and installers that didn't. Both are all over the board in their recommendations.

3 installers = no load calc.
105k btu (95% single stage) + 3 ton (16 SEER)
90k btu (80% 2-stage variable) + 2.5 ton (14/16 SEER)
75k btu (95% 2-stage NON-variable) + 3 ton (13/14.5 SEER)

2 installers = yes load calc.
75k btu (95% 2-stage variable) + 3 ton (14.5/16 SEER)
90k btu (95% 2-stage variable) + 3 ton (14.5/16 SEER)

As a homeowner who has no experience with HVAC systems, how do I know who's right and who's wrong? There's more consistency in the AC portion, but the furnace recommendations have been everywhere. So rzyzzy - I don't know if homeowners really know a manual J is actually necessary because there's a good chance that someone might be using it wrong.

are the 75k and the 90k the same brand?

[AtomicLush]

are the 75k and the 90k the same brand?

Yes.