Adding recovered refrigerant to customer unit is illegal, correct?

[ICanHas]

I read this in a different thread. I guess nobody knows the answer or just haven't read it.

The use of recovered refrigerant recovered refrigerant sourced from other units is illegal unless it came from units owned by the same person as the the equipment being serviced.

So, isn't it "illegal" to top off in this fashion or am I missing something here?


I used that super seal one time, just a couple of weeks ago.I had a customer with a leaking evap. coil. They decided they wanted to take advantage of the tax credits available so I sold them an entire system. The only problem was that our installer was about two weeks out from getting it in. The guys wife was on oxygen, so she had a harder time breathing when it was hot. I suggested trying the "experimental drug" on his system to help get them through until we could replace everything. It worked for about a week, had to top it off with some recovered 22, but it did make it. I told him if we weren't replacing the entire system includaing the lineset, I'd never use the stuff, but in this case, it worked out ok. I'm guessing the op has a plugged metering device possibly.

From: EPA.gov

3. Reclamation Requirement

EPA has also established that refrigerant recovered and/or recycled can be returned to the same system or other systems owned by the same person without restriction. If refrigerant changes ownership, it must be reclaimed (i.e., cleaned to the ARI 700-1993 Standard of purity) by an EPA certified refrigerant reclaimer.

[Fabrk8r]

As long as the refrigerant is from equipment owned by the same person it's legal. The recovered refrigerant doesn't have to come from the same unit.

If it's not from the same owner the EPA says it's not legal.

I didn't see where big sky hvac said the recovered refrigerant came from, so I just have to assume it came from the owner's equipment.

[ICanHas]

As long as the refrigerant is from equipment owned by the same person it's legal. The recovered refrigerant doesn't have to come from the same unit.

If it's not from the same owner the EPA says it's not legal.

I didn't see where big sky hvac said the recovered refrigerant came from, so I just have to assume it came from the owner's equipment.

Well, from reading the post, where would the surplus refrigerant come from in a residential service call?

Unit in question was leaking and needed to have refrigerant replenished. Unless the HO has another unit that is severely overcharged, I don't know where he would siphon the R-22 from.

[Oldschoolmetal]

[QUOTE=ICanHas;7535172]Well, from reading the post, where would the surplus refrigerant come from in a residential service call?

Unit in question was leaking and needed to have refrigerant replenished. Unless the HO has another unit that is severely overcharged, I don't know where he would siphon the R-22 from.[/QUOTE
Who cares. He was helping someone get threw a few hot days until they could replace the system. I bet he didn't charge them one dime for the r-22.

[ICanHas]

Who cares. He was helping someone get threw a few hot days until they could replace the system. I bet he didn't charge them one dime for the r-22.

To the extent of my knowledge, not charging material and giving away recovered refrigerant on a service call is not an EPA approved method of refrigerant disposal. I'm surprised someone who advertises "Credentials
HVAC contractor, HVAC Journeyman, EPA Card, Mobile A/C" gives "who cares" as an answer for an EPA compliance related question.

[Oldschoolmetal]

To the extent of my knowledge, not charging material and giving away recovered refrigerant on a service call is not an EPA approved method of refrigerant disposal.


"Please be polite, professional and helpful in your replies."

[ICanHas]

If it's not from the same owner the EPA says it's not legal.


Thank you for your concise, professional response.


Removed Quote.

Like, staying out of posting unprofessional comments on questions you don't have an answer to?

[Oldschoolmetal]

Thank you for your concise, professional resposne.



Like, staying out of posting unprofessional comments on questions you don't have an answer to?
Keep it civil and leave personal attacks out.

[Green Mountain]

I'm guessing he didn't SELL the used refrigerant to the old folks. That is what the regulation is trying to avoid. That is; people selling used refrigerant on a regular basis. Or passing off used refrigerant as new.

I'd do the same thing to help some folks out and not even bat an eye. Its not like we have EPA inspectors swinging from trees. :tank:

[pdrake65]

I read this in a different thread. I guess nobody knows the answer or just haven't read it.

The use of recovered refrigerant recovered refrigerant sourced from other units is illegal unless it came from units owned by the same person as the the equipment being serviced.

So, isn't it "illegal" to top off in this fashion or am I missing something here?



From: EPA.gov

3. Reclamation Requirement

EPA has also established that refrigerant recovered and/or recycled can be returned to the same system or other systems owned by the same person without restriction. If refrigerant changes ownership, it must be reclaimed (i.e., cleaned to the ARI 700-1993 Standard of purity) by an EPA certified refrigerant reclaimer.

Maybe you should wait a bit longer for Big Sky to respond to your post on the other thread. Only he knows the whole story. An "owner" can be a landlord who owns several homes in residential work. By the way, it is a good idea to put a profile in for yourself so we know a little bit about your experience in the biz.;)

[Oldschoolmetal]

Yeah.
Enough.

[ICanHas]

I'm guessing he didn't SELL the used refrigerant to the old folks. That is what the regulation is trying to avoid. That is; people selling used refrigerant on a regular basis. Or passing off used refrigerant as new.

I'd do the same thing to help some folks out and not even bat an eye. Its not like we have EPA inspectors swinging from trees. :tank:

To be EPA compliant, reclaimed(processed at reclamation facility) refrigerant must meet purity standards. I think that this regulation is there to prevent spread of contamination as well as what you said and diversion in general.

If it said anything along the line of "not selling", creative techs would come up with simply allocating the cost elsewhere.

[LowCashACR]

I completely agree with Ben. Your not supposed to unless your putting in another unit owned by the same person that owns the original one. But, if you know nothing was wrong with the system, why not save the next customer (and yourself) a little green?

[Stamas]

Yeah.
Enough.

OldSchool,
The OP did not mention turning anyone in. It is a topic of discussion, period.
No more posts like the others you put here.

[Oldschoolmetal]

OldSchool,
The OP did not mention turning anyone in. It is a topic of discussion, period.
No more posts like the others you put here. Alright Stamas, You win. I was just having one of those bad days today and the OP ( ........) just struck me wrong. There is nothing wrong with helping older folks out and it just seamed like he was trying to drag politics into it. The EPA is a big joke, especially with the lead law they just passed. There motto is lets see how much more money we can take from the middle class..

[ICanHas]

An "owner" can be a landlord who owns several homes in residential work.

A company or an institutional is an artificial "person" as well. Do you know how far up the hierarchy they assume as the same "person"?

Say there is 1,000 lbs of R-11 recovered from decommissioned chillers at one of the buildings at campuses of California University who's title remains with the state.

How far can they stretch the "same person" exemption to move that without requiring reclamation?

To anything within that campus?
Any campus within the system?

What about the state court house, department of transportation or department of agriculture or any equipment under the ownership of "State of California" ?

[pdrake65]

Sorry. Can't give out any info to DIY posters. Put a profile up for yourself or leave....done playing nice to you and your EPA conspiracy paranonia!

[jmac00]

A company or an institutional is an artificial "person" as well. Do you know how far up the hierarchy they assume as the same "person"?

Say there is 1,000 lbs of R-11 recovered from decommissioned chillers at one of the buildings at campuses of California University who's title remains with the state.

How far can they stretch the "same person" exemption to move that without requiring reclamation?

To anything within that campus?
Any campus within the system?

What about the state court house, department of transportation or department of agriculture or any equipment under the ownership of "State of California" ?

your going off on a little bit of a tangent here and your getting a little carried away.

first: We are talking about a residential system that IS SCHEDULED to be replaced.

Second: No one (including Big Sky) said he SOLD the r-22. If he DID NOT SELL the r-22, there is no violation

This rule only applies to SELLING used refrigerant, it says NOTHING about giving refrigerant away.

I have no problem with giving a customer some refrigerant to get them through a warm spell, especially if they are getting the system replaced withing a couple of weeks.

as far as I'm concerned, this is a NON-ISSUE and your making a mountain out of a mole hill

[karsthuntr]

your going off on a little bit of a tangent here and your getting a little carried away.

first: We are talking about a residential system that IS SCHEDULED to be replaced.

Second: No one (including Big Sky) said he SOLD the r-22. If he DID NOT SELL the r-22, there is no violation

This rule only applies to SELLING used refrigerant, it says NOTHING about giving refrigerant away.

I have no problem with giving a customer some refrigerant to get them through a warm spell, especially if they are getting the system replaced withing a couple of weeks.

as far as I'm concerned, this is a NON-ISSUE and your making a mountain out of a mole hill
And I will have to agree, it was not sold to anyone.


I have done the same thing a few times and will do it again.

[craig1]

This rule only applies to SELLING used refrigerant, it says NOTHING about giving refrigerant away.


Hmmm. I wonder what the EPA would think I gave away my recovered refrigerant with an installation fee of $30 per pound :)

[craig1]

A company or an institutional is an artificial "person" as well. Do you know how far up the hierarchy they assume as the same "person"?

Say there is 1,000 lbs of R-11 recovered from decommissioned chillers at one of the buildings at campuses of California University who's title remains with the state.

How far can they stretch the "same person" exemption to move that without requiring reclamation?

To anything within that campus?
Any campus within the system?

What about the state court house, department of transportation or department of agriculture or any equipment under the ownership of "State of California" ?


Supermarkets, Wal-Mart etc do this all the time. When a store is slated for demolition, the refrigerant is pulled and stored for use in other stores.

The idea of the law is that if the refrigerant is contaminated the the same owner bears the cost of their choice to re-use it.

If I pull 8 LBS out of Mr Smiths burned out A/C and then use it to recharge Mrs. Jones system, I just ruined her system through no choice of her own. Whereas if Wal-Mart pulls 1000 LBS of contaminated refrigerant out of a rack and dumps it in another Wal-Mart's system, they just screwed themselves good and might remember not to do it again.

[VTP99]

Could be walking a fine line here. Be careful guys what you say big brother could be watching. :couchhide:

[jpsmith1cm]

Supermarkets, Wal-Mart etc do this all the time. When a store is slated for demolition, the refrigerant is pulled and stored for use in other stores.

The idea of the law is that if the refrigerant is contaminated the the same owner bears the cost of their choice to re-use it.

If I pull 8 LBS out of Mr Smiths burned out A/C and then use it to recharge Mrs. Jones system, I just ruined her system through no choice of her own. Whereas if Wal-Mart pulls 1000 LBS of contaminated refrigerant out of a rack and dumps it in another Wal-Mart's system, they just screwed themselves good and might remember not to do it again.

I remember that during the phase out of 502 and 12.

I expect to be seeing 100# cylinders of recovered R-22 around soon enough.

[ICanHas]

If he DID NOT SELL the r-22, there is no violation

This rule only applies to SELLING used refrigerant, it says NOTHING about giving refrigerant away.

The presence of compensation wasn't a consideration when I re-read the EPA page. I think Fabrk8r is correct. Recovered refrigerant can not leave your recovery tank unless all the refrigerant inside came from the same owner as the equipment it is going into.

It appears neither liberating into the atmosphere nor into other people's equipment are legal.

I don't know if there was a violation. There was no violation if the recovered R-22 came from something belonging to the same property owner. Otherwise, there was a violation.

[beenthere]

The presence of compensation wasn't a consideration when I re-read the EPA page. I think Fabrk8r is correct. Recovered refrigerant can not leave your recovery tank unless all the refrigerant inside came from the same owner as the equipment it is going into.

It appears neither liberating into the atmosphere nor into other people's equipment are legal.

I don't know if there was a violation. There was no violation if the recovered R-22 came from something belonging to the same property owner. Otherwise, there was a violation.

The question would be: Did ownership of the recovered R22 change hands?

So did big sky give it to that customer. Or did big shy "loan" or permit use of someone else's recovered refrigerant?

If I recover R22 from my central unit. And then use it in my portable. And put my portable A.C in someones house for the weekend. Do they now own my portable A/C?

I believe what big sky did, walks the line.

[beenthere]

Sorry. Can't give out any info to DIY posters. Put a profile up for yourself or leave....done playing nice to you and your EPA conspiracy paranonia!

ICanHas, is conducting himself appropriately. And hasn't committed any violation of the site rules.

[pdrake65]

ICanHas, is conducting himself appropriately. And hasn't committed any violation of the site rules.

No problem...All is good! When he puts a profile up( he has looked at mine) I will be happy to discuss anything with him.

[beenthere]

No problem...All is good! When he puts a profile up( he has looked at mine) I will be happy to discuss anything with him.

Filing out his profile, Is his option. And if he doesn't want to. He doesn't have to go away.

[pdrake65]

Filing out his profile, Is his option. And if he doesn't want to. He doesn't have to go away.

Got that....thank you.

[Mr Bill]

Mr. Bill thinks ICANHAS is an Attorney, you want to bet? :D

[beenthere]

Mr. Bill thinks ICANHAS is an Attorney, you want to bet? :D
Hmmm. The last 3 bets I made. I lost. So I don't think I'll be betting on it one way or the other. :D

[jpsmith1cm]

The other issue I see here is one of proof.

In the absence of video showing a technician adding recovered refrigerant, you have no proof, and even then, your proof is thin at best.

Yes, technically adding recovered refrigerant from a different owner is illegal, it is a difficult thing to prove, I think, and, therefore, a difficult thing to prosecute.

[karsthuntr]

Even if you had video that still doesn't prove anything. Just because the video has someone putting ref. in a system from a grey and yellow jug doesn't show where that ref. came from.

To give you an example, I had a r-22 jug that had a bad valve, I just transfered it to a clean recovery jug. Now that ref. is virgin and legal to be sold to a customer.

[Oldschoolmetal]

It would be hard to prove it was used refrigerant as well. What if you was so tight buying refrigerant that you made your techs split a 30 lb jug and you put it in 2 clean tanks. :cheers:

[Oldschoolmetal]

Karsthuntr was you reading my mind. :eek2:

[ICanHas]

It would be hard to prove it was used refrigerant as well. What if you was so tight buying refrigerant that you made your techs split a 30 lb jug and you put it in 2 clean tanks. :cheers:


Even if you had video that still doesn't prove anything. Just because the video has someone putting ref. in a system from a grey and yellow jug doesn't show where that ref. came from.

To give you an example, I had a r-22 jug that had a bad valve, I just transfered it to a clean recovery jug. Now that ref. is virgin and legal to be sold to a customer.


The other issue I see here is one of proof.

In the absence of video showing a technician adding recovered refrigerant, you have no proof, and even then, your proof is thin at best.




You guys are missing the point. The question's already been answered. It is unlawful to furnish another customer's system with recovered refrigerant that didn't already belong to the system owner prior to recovery.

Not if the act that looked like illegal was legal or not.

Is it legal to steal copper? The answer is "No". Not "if it couldn't be proven during a traffic stop its stolen, then "yes "

Is it legal for recycling shops to knowingly buy buy stolen copper? No.

Could it be proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the recycling shop knew that the condensers the crooks brought in for copper was stolen at the time of purchase? (meaning that they already had police contact them with serial # and the serial # matched) Probably not, provable and legal are different. Lack of ability to prove in court of law doesn't make an illegal action legal.



Yes, technically adding recovered refrigerant from a different owner is illegal, it is a difficult thing to prove, I think, and, therefore, a difficult thing to prosecute.
It's technically illegal to "knowingly" buy stolen coils for copper scrap value too. Scrap buyers get away, because of the difficulty in positively proving that it occurred knowingly.

[ICanHas]

EPA has also established that refrigerant recovered and/or recycled can be returned to the same system or other systems owned by the same person without restriction. If refrigerant changes ownership, it must be reclaimed (i.e., cleaned to the ARI 700-1993 Standard of purity) by an EPA certified refrigerant reclaimer.


The question would be: Did ownership of the recovered R22 change hands?

Then I would have to ask if the refrigerant's title remained with the contractor before it was recovered. If it was recovered from other person(s)'s system(s) and he acquired the ownership, then that activates the change of ownership, which mandates reclamation.

If there was no change in ownership in out-of-service refrigerant, then the requirements probably don't apply. So, if contractor "A" recovers R-22 from PTACs he acquired in entirety, then charge the broken reefer that came with a delivery truck he bought, then sell the entire reefer, its presumably legal, because the title of refrigerant and equipment all belonged to contractor "A" at the time of transfer.

If R-22 recovery occurred prior to acquisition of title of scrap PTAC units, then I think ownership change rule applies even though there is no physical material difference.


So did the hypothetical service contractor give it to a customer. Or did big the aforementioned permit use of someone else's recovered refrigerant?
How I read the text of the EPA law is that unless the refrigerant's title already belonged to the system owner, it can not enter that system. I suppose its possible to sell a customer 50 scrap window A/Cs and a recovery tank on paper, then perform a complementary service of recovery and buy back the scrap soul-less A/Cs . The entire A/C units title belonged to customer when you moved their souls to a container, so the R-22 belonged to the customer.

I don't suppose you can put 30,000 lbs of R-22 on indefinite loan to the atmosphere :angel:

[karsthuntr]

The ref. in question never changed ownership. When they replace the unit, within the next week, they will be recovering the ref. back into the tank it came out of. They just let the homeowner "borrow" the ref. until such time as the system can be replaced. :)

[ICanHas]

The ref. in question never changed ownership. When they replace the unit, within the next week, they will be recovering the ref. back into the tank it came out of. They just let the homeowner "borrow" the ref. until such time as the system can be replaced. :)

Yes it did.

Change on ownership #1
1st owner: owners of systems from which it was recovered from.
2nd owner: the service contractor

The law says used refrigerant that's changed hands must be reclaimed.

If recovered refrigerant comes from multiple sources, it can't be used no matter what. i.e. 5lbs from owner A, 2 lbs from owner B, 4 lbs from owner C all into one container. This doesn't mean the same container can be used to return 5 lbs to owner A.

Just as you can't temporarily remove blood from someone for a procedure, then allow blood from other people with same blood type to be stored in the same container, and return the blood back to you from the same container in the quantity removed from you.

[Oldschoolmetal]

I say we quit feeding the :troll2:

[beenthere]

Yes it did.

Change on ownership #1
1st owner: owners of systems from which it was recovered from.
2nd owner: the service contractor

The law says used refrigerant that's changed hands must be reclaimed.

If recovered refrigerant comes from multiple sources, it can't be used no matter what. i.e. 5lbs from owner A, 2 lbs from owner B, 4 lbs from owner C all into one container. This doesn't mean the same container can be used to return 5 lbs to owner A.

Just as you can't temporarily remove blood from someone for a procedure, then allow blood from other people with same blood type to be stored in the same container, and return the blood back to you from the same container in the quantity removed from you.

At what point does the contractor become the owner of the recovered refrigerant.

[jmac00]

Just as you can't temporarily remove blood from someone for a procedure, then allow blood from other people with same blood type to be stored in the same container, and return the blood back to you from the same container in the quantity removed from you.

that's a terrible analogy.

[VTP99]

That's it nobody is getting any refrigerant.:deadhorse:

[BBebee]

Ok, how about if the service guy 'buys' the HVAC unit(Lets say for one dollar) before he puts the recovered refrigerant in, then 'sells' the unit(for one dollar) after he's done?

That way the service guy would be the owner of the unit when he installed the recovered refigerant, since he recovered the refrigerant from anohther unit he owned, he's legal I'd say...

[ICanHas]

Ok, how about if the service guy 'buys' the HVAC unit(Lets say for one dollar) before he puts the recovered refrigerant in, then 'sells' the unit(for one dollar) after he's done?

That way the service guy would be the owner of the unit when he installed the recovered refigerant, since he recovered the refrigerant from anohther unit he owned, he's legal I'd say...

Doubtful. If that was how it worked, everyone would do it to get out of liability. I can buy your van for $1, work on it, then sell it back to you for $1.

If I wreck it or break it while I'm working on it, I broke MY van, not yours. Obviously you'd be a fool to sell it.

[dorff]

We're not even allowed to keep a leaking system running without a complete fix, let alone top it up temporarily.

[jpsmith1cm]

We're not even allowed to keep a leaking system running without a complete fix, let alone top it up temporarily.

Goofy Canadians.

:LOL:

:LOL:

:LOL:

:whistle:

[ICanHas]

We're not even allowed to keep a leaking system running without a complete fix, let alone top it up temporarily.

In a way, that's good. If you get a system installed, they would have to actually FIX it, rather than band-aid it and keep doing it and wash their hands as soon as warranty expires leaving the owner with recurring repair bills.