So much condensation under furnace into crawl space

[kezug]

The home is a 1400 sq ft ranch on a crawl (cement floor/walls in crawl). 3years old. The furnace is an Air Ease Tech 80 (2.5 ton).

We live in NW Indiana..its been hot and humid.

The furnace is centrally located in house in a laundry room. The air flow is downward. In the laundry room is a 3/4 pvc drain that exits from the bottom of the unit near the floor.

Under the furnace, into the crawl space is the plenum, which comes about 16" from the floor (crawl space floor). From this plenum are 2 large cylinder shoots that feed various floor vents. The shoots exit the plenum towards the top.

I discovered a wet floor under the plenum and noticed the water was coming from the plenum. I opened 1 corner and a lot of water poured out. We have discovered some water the past 2 summers, but this year seemed worse.

The drain in the furnace room is not clogged. I opened up the furnace panel to discovered an A coil. It is clean. The drip pan is all PVC and I can only see about half of it, but that is clean too and doesnt have any standing water in it. I tried to take off the cover to see in the middle of the A coil and down into the plenum, but there is so little wiggle room to take off that panel, that I didnt try further.

I poured water into the pan, as much as I could, to see if it all runs out the pvc drain pipe and it did. This also caused no water to drip into the plenum and onto the crawl floor.

There is no sign of frost. The house cools fine. When the unit is on, there is a steady, immediate, trickle coming from the pvc pipe. And there is also a stead trickly coming from the bottom of the plenum in the crawl space about 5 minutes after the unit is on.

Where is all this water coming from?

My only theory, is that something is wrong with the drip pan (either its being missed or its cracked or broke on the side I cant see)
Or
Is it possible that the cold air into the plenum (into the crawl) is causing condensation inside the plenum thus all the water? NOTE: the outside of the plenum is cold, but doesnt sweat on the outside.

The crawl has 2 or 3 vents where we have 1 vent open during the summer.

The duct work and plenum in the crawl space are not insulated.

Help!?

P.S. The original installers are no longer in business and the 2 other companies that came out, well, lets just say I am now looking for more options.

[reediejay]

:eek2:
The home is a 1400 sq ft ranch on a crawl (cement floor/walls in crawl). 3years old. The furnace is an Air Ease Tech 80 (2.5 ton).

We live in NW Indiana..its been hot and humid.

The furnace is centrally located in house in a laundry room. The air flow is downward. In the laundry room is a 3/4 pvc drain that exits from the bottom of the unit near the floor.

Under the furnace, into the crawl space is the plenum, which comes about 16" from the floor (crawl space floor). From this plenum are 2 large cylinder shoots that feed various floor vents. The shoots exit the plenum towards the top.

I discovered a wet floor under the plenum and noticed the water was coming from the plenum. I opened 1 corner and a lot of water poured out. We have discovered some water the past 2 summers, but this year seemed worse.

The drain in the furnace room is not clogged. I opened up the furnace panel to discovered an A coil. It is clean. The drip pan is all PVC and I can only see about half of it, but that is clean too and doesnt have any standing water in it. I tried to take off the cover to see in the middle of the A coil and down into the plenum, but there is so little wiggle room to take off that panel, that I didnt try further.

I poured water into the pan, as much as I could, to see if it all runs out the pvc drain pipe and it did. This also caused no water to drip into the plenum and onto the crawl floor.

There is no sign of frost. The house cools fine. When the unit is on, there is a steady, immediate, trickle coming from the pvc pipe. And there is also a stead trickly coming from the bottom of the plenum in the crawl space about 5 minutes after the unit is on.

Where is all this water coming from?

My only theory, is that something is wrong with the drip pan (either its being missed or its cracked or broke on the side I cant see)
Or
Is it possible that the cold air into the plenum (into the crawl) is causing condensation inside the plenum thus all the water? NOTE: the outside of the plenum is cold, but doesnt sweat on the outside.

The crawl has 2 or 3 vents where we have 1 vent open during the summer.

The duct work and plenum in the crawl space are not insulated.

Help!?

P.S. The original installers are no longer in business and the 2 other companies that came out, well, lets just say I am now looking for more options.

Is your crawlspace conditioned? If you did'nt intend to condition your crawlspace then that might be the reason that the water is there. Most of the time you would expect to find your ductwork and plenums insulated. Maybe the ducts are insulated inside instead of outside. You could post some pics and consider calling a "reputable" company to have them check out the entire duct system.

[kezug]

:eek2:

Is your crawlspace conditioned? If you did'nt intend to condition your crawlspace then that might be the reason that the water is there. Most of the time you would expect to find your ductwork and plenums insulated. Maybe the ducts are insulated inside instead of outside. You could post some pics and consider calling a "reputable" company to have them check out the entire duct system.

Thanks for the reply. The crawl is not conditioned (I am assuming you mean are there vents in the crawl...no)

The ductwork and plenum are not insulated.

I just bought some bubble reflectix stuff that is R13 in value. It is meant for wrapping duct or lining walls etc... I am thinking that is a quick way to see if it helps in the condensation in the plenum (that is, if that is where all the water is coming from).

[Kevin O'Neill]

reflectix does not work well as duct insulation. I have tried it. Don't waste your money.

Encapsulate your crawlspace instead.

[pacnw]

I have a couple other thoughts, but they are more along the line of stuff I cannot discuss in an open forum.

I second the call to a Pro, they should be able to determine the cause.

[kezug]

We have called a pro. In fact, 3 companies have come out. They all claim nothing is wrong. However, not one of them has done any sort of troubleshooting like I have (I am an IT guy and know nothing about HVAC, but I do know how to troubleshoot to pin point an issue).

Not once did any of them turn the unit on, go in the crawl and watch the water trickle from the plenum.

At this point, I have lost hope in the pro's.

The original installer wont call back.

Each tech after that didnt go in the crawl. All they did was open up the unit and indicate...drip pan is dry, nothing wrong here.!

[reediejay]

I would call the owner of the firm that you thought had the most promise and insist they go under the crawl and find out the answer. If you paid for a complete diagnostic then you should get it and its only going to be a few things but they won't know if they don't look at everything. If they won't come back then you may have to get one more and tell them everything upfront and insist they go under before they get there or don't pay them until they do. There is an answer to this it just has to be investigated properly

[energy star]

Answer this.

Do you have a trap on the drain that leaves the a-coil?

[hvacrmedic]

Keep looking. Unfortunately DIY info isn't allowed here.

[kezug]

Answer this.

Do you have a trap on the drain that leaves the a-coil?

If I understand this question...No...the drain has 2 horizontal 90 degree bends that lead to a drain in the floor.

[kezug]

Keep looking. Unfortunately DIY info isn't allowed here.

I didnt realize this. Where can I go to get some help on this matter?

In my case, I have lost faith in someone helping me in this matter and need to get as much info so that when/if I call another company, I can get them to the issue right away, instead of waiting/hope for them to investigate and find the issue.

I think this is a simple solution, I just cant quite find it.

[DavidNJ]

If the water is IN the plenum, how can it be caused by condensation? Wouldn't that air already be at the lower dewpoint? If it was condensation, it would be on the outside, wouldn't it?

Wouldn't that imply that the condensate drain from the coil is not working? If the house is 3 years old, isn't it covered by a homeowner's warranty? If so, shouldn't the installing company should fix it free of charge.

[kezug]

Here are some pics (I can get more if needed)
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7182.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7184.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7183.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7185.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7186.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7188.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7189.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7190.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7192.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7200.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7215.jpg

[kezug]

If the water is IN the plenum, how can it be caused by condensation? Wouldn't that air already be at the lower dewpoint? If it was condensation, it would be on the outside, wouldn't it?

Wouldn't that imply that the condensate drain from the coil is not working? If the house is 3 years old, isn't it covered by a homeowner's warranty? If so, shouldn't the installing company should fix it free of charge.

I agree with your question of condensation on the outside vs inside. I mentioned this and the techs say, its normal...that a unit can produce 8-9 gallons of water a day easy.

As for warranty..that only lasts for 1 year. I have never heard of a homeowners warranty going longer than that, unless you pay extra for it.

[pauls heating &]

the thing that strikes me first ...the lack of trap in the drain line

[energy star]

You need a trap. Take a pic where the drain goes now, I don't see it in the crawl space pic.

I think the water in the drain pan is fighting the air to get pushed out the hole...this is keeping the drain pan in the unit to full of water. Water is splashing around the pan and dripping out and falling in the plenum. Get some Plexiglas, put that on in place of the panel, get a flashlight and watch as its running.
Also a heat source (water heater) has a PVC drain pipe blow air right up by the water heater burner area.

[kezug]

You need a trap. Take a pic where the drain goes now, I don't see it in the crawl space pic.

I think the water in the drain pan is fighting the air to get pushed out the hole...this is keeping the drain pan in the unit to full of water. Water is splashing around the pan and dripping out and falling in the plenum. Get some Plexiglas, put that on in place of the panel, get a flashlight and watch as its running.
Also a heat source (water heater) has a PVC drain pipe blow air right up by the water heater burner area.

Thanks everyone for commenting...here is a picture of the pvc drain from the furnace. The drain in the floor has a P trap. (you can see the low part of that trap behind that gas line in the 2nd picture).

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7184.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7194.jpg

[energy star]

That looks like a 2.5'' pipe. Is the 3/4'' pipe just stuck into that trap?

[kezug]

Also, I did notice this. The A coil has a cover covering the middle part of the A which prevents me from seeing down the center of the plenum. (See Example A Coil pic). This cover (in yellow) is not air tight or water tight for that matter. Especially towards the peak of the coil. There are about 8 sheet metal screws holding it in, but towards the top its bent away from the coil (where red is) a little causing a gap between the cover and coil.

Is it possible that as the copper outer loop tubes condensate, instead of falling down to the pan...the water is trickling behind the cover, then dripping steadily into the plenum?

I hope that makes sense..so, for now, how can I make that A coil cover a tighter fit? Add a sheet metal screw where the gap is? Some aluminum tape?

Also, I did try taking off this cover, but the copper tubings are in the way and the only way to take it out is by force and bending the cover, which is difficult given little wiggle room. But I sure would like to get this cover off..it would tell me so much!

NOTE This is an example PIC of our A coil. It is similar, but not exact and is only to be used to illustrate my description above of a possible cause.


Edit NOTE:Picture removed since it was misleading as it was not the unit of this discussion. However, I have more actual pics...keep reading. This post is kind of out dated as I now know more info

[HoneyDo]

Would it be acceptable to...

Drill hole in floor. Run drain down to crawls space.

Splice in a tee or wey into that drain line in crawl space ceiling with a mechanical (threaded) trap.

[Tjune54]

Is the evaporator coil Air Ease also? If so was or does it require alteration for down flow. There are two pieces of metal in the bottom right of the pictures or the coil that look like pieces we have to use on certain Trane coils to go downflow.
The Trane parts prevent condensate blow-off of the evaporator drain pan area.
JMO

[pauls heating &]

That looks like a 2.5'' pipe. Is the 3/4'' pipe just stuck into that trap?

we have an eagle eye...i missed it..looks like its going into a 2 in safe waste..

looks like time to sumhow get a trap into the horizontal drain run..
poor planning/install on that drain

[kezug]

we have an eagle eye...i missed it..looks like its going into a 2 in safe waste..

looks like time to sumhow get a trap into the horizontal drain run..
poor planning/install on that drain

When you say trap in the 3/4" drain line, do you mean like a p trap you would see on sink drains? Sorry for asking, but why?

[kezug]

I have taken off the inspection cover...what a careful job that is! There is no evidence of water coming in from behind the cover (as suspected in previous post)

I took many pics...here are a few...if you want something else, just ask

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7224.jpg

Here are some shots of it open:
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7226.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7227.jpg

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7228.jpg

[kezug]

But look what I found now...as I took my camera inside:

Note: The reason for the offset into the plenum is to go around an ibeam below.
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7264.jpg

I am suspecting that none of the techs looked inside (with a mirror at least) to see this.

This is where my waters is hitting and causing the plenum to leak down below.

So, I plumbed a line upward to see if I can find the source of the drip. But I only found some indentations in the fins of the a coil. There are other areas of such indentations but even so, I dont know if this is the source of the water.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7268.jpg

The underbelly looks good
http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn84/kezug/IMG_7272.jpg


So, with this new evidence, I will call out the owner of the HVAC co and discuss.

From this new information, what else should I do to present to the owner?


I am kind of disappointed as to why none of the other techs found this before me. It is sad, either I am a genius or they just didnt do their job (I kind of would like to think a little of both :) )

[Kevin O'Neill]

Looks like water is blowing off the coil. Happens most with down-flow coils in humid climates. Carrier tells me that a restrictive return or air filter will aggravate this. What kind of filter are you using? If it is a pleat or washable mesh, try replacing it with a fiberglass filter.

High velocity at the coil, over about 500 FPM, can also cause it.

[Kevin O'Neill]

By the way, there sure a lot of fittings in your flue. I would check for draft spillage.

[pacnw]

some mfr have specific things to do in a downflow application, you might try to get the install instruction and verify they were done, if needed.

if you cannot get them then ask the contractor to do so.

[kezug]

Looks like water is blowing off the coil. Happens most with down-flow coils in humid climates. Carrier tells me that a restrictive return or air filter will aggravate this. What kind of filter are you using? If it is a pleat or washable mesh, try replacing it with a fiberglass filter.

High velocity at the coil, over about 500 FPM, can also cause it.

Actually, one tech suggested that and all summer we have been using the simple fiberglass filter.

[kezug]

Looks like water is blowing off the coil. Happens most with down-flow coils in humid climates. Carrier tells me that a restrictive return or air filter will aggravate this. What kind of filter are you using? If it is a pleat or washable mesh, try replacing it with a fiberglass filter.

High velocity at the coil, over about 500 FPM, can also cause it.

You might be right in this situation, but I would think it would blow in various places inside the plenum and not specific as the pics show. However, given that the drain is at floor level, would lead to having to pipe through the floor and tap into a drain...this could be difficult as that would put me lower than the actual floor drain.



By the way, there sure a lot of fittings in your flue. I would check for draft spillage.

Is this just a general statement or is it possibly leading to my issue?

[pauls heating &]

When you say trap in the 3/4" drain line, do you mean like a p trap you would see on sink drains? Sorry for asking, but why?

sometimes the air coming out of the drain will actually back up the condensate in the pan causing it to overflow when your ac is running for long
periods in the hot weather...a trap will stop the air blowing thru the drain and let the water flow/drain as needed..
look at the drain as the unit shuts off after a 15 or so min cycle...
if you get a large discharge of water chances are the air pressure may be retaining the water from draining from thedrain pan..
your service guy/installer should know how to do it

[Kevin O'Neill]

sometimes the air coming out of the drain will actually back up the condensate in the pan causing it to overflow when your ac is running for long
periods in the hot weather...a trap will stop the air blowing thru the drain and let the water flow/drain as needed..
look at the drain as the unit shuts off after a 15 or so min cycle...
if you get a large discharge of water chances are the air pressure may be retaining the water from draining from thedrain pan..
your service guy/installer should know how to do it

That is a down-flow gas furnace in the pictures, with the coil under the furnace. The coil is under positive pressure and so is the drain. Therefore it is unlikely the lack of a trap is causing the drain pan to overflow.

[kezug]

The owner of the local HVAC company I have been dealing with came out (this is not the original installer). He reviewed the pictures and his quick simple suggestion is to add another drain line to the 3/4 existing out of the right side. But immediately from the unit to have an open T connection to help with water flow pressure that might be restricting water from flowing out normally. (as he suspects maybe water is backing up and overflowing.

If that doesnt work, he said its likely to just get a new A coil and to also raise it all up because he was concerned with the immideate angle prior to the plenum in the crawl space. The reason for this angle is due to an ibeam under the floor.

I will continue to report here of my results.

[kezug]

Looks like water is blowing off the coil. Happens most with down-flow coils in humid climates. Carrier tells me that a restrictive return or air filter will aggravate this. What kind of filter are you using? If it is a pleat or washable mesh, try replacing it with a fiberglass filter.

High velocity at the coil, over about 500 FPM, can also cause it.

Is there any way to reduce the air flow by way of reducing the FPM...thinking that any reduction, ever so slight might help this situation.