goodman Condensers

[otduk]

Saturday, September 25, 2004

I am having a problem with one particular unit {Goodman} Condenser the Model # CPKJ30-1A Ser# 010641957. This is what happens on hot days most of the condensers, compressors are not running and fan is, you can hear the compressor trying to start! I have check the voltage drop and it within range, the unit operates between 194-256 have not check on very hot days. What I end up doing is putting hard starts on them which there is about 50 unites on this building and almost half have hard starts on them! The evap is made by First company! I think these units are 13 seer and not sure if there is expandtion valve on the evap. I have tried getting contact w/Goodman but not with much luck! Any suggestions?

MIB Air Paul

[Swampfox]

Those are 12 SEER, probably have TXV's on the evaps and the pressures dont equalize fast enough, might want to put a start cap and potential relay on all the units, not just a super boost style hard start, I would add a short cycle timer also

[honglo]

otduk,
Those one piece hard starts sold like (candy) in supply houses are NOT true hard start kits. They only help when used on non-txv systems. If your evaporators are of txv design, you MUST use a REAL hard start kit. This is true of ANY brand and not the fault of the Goodman equipment. In fact, it is the FAULT OF THE INSTALLER not knowing how to do his job!

[RoBoTeq]

If those units have matching and rated Goodman indoor coils they are piston, not TXV metered.

My first guess would be a partial blockage in the OEM filter/driers located in the outdoor units between the condensing coil and the service valve.

To test for this;

*Adjust the superheat to the specifications of the equipment.

* If the subcooling is more than 8-12ºf when the superheat is right, there is a partial blockage between the service valve and the condenser coil. Most likely the filter/drier but could be a piece of brazing at the opening of the service valve.

* If this is the case, cut out (do not unbraze) the OEM filter/drier, install a piece of copper tubing in it's place, then install a full sized filter/drier in the liquid line outside of the unit.

* If when the superheat is right, the system has low head and high suction pressures with low subcooling it is most likely the correct piston was never installed in the indoor coil.

Superheat = the actual temperature of the suction line minus the "saturated" temperature of the refrigerant as is related to the suction line pressure. Saturated temperature is shown in relation to the suction pressure on most gauges in green numbers listed as R-22 or on a temperature/pressure chart.

Subcooling = the saturated temperature of the refrigerant in the liquid line minus the actual temperature of the liquid line itself.

All pressures and temperature data should be noted after at least 10 minutes of continuous operation of the system after the last charge adjustment.

[Edited by RoBoTeq on 09-25-2004 at 05:42 PM]

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by honglo
otduk,
Those one piece hard starts sold like (candy) in supply houses are NOT true hard start kits. They only help when used on non-txv systems. If your evaporators are of txv design, you MUST use a REAL hard start kit. This is true of ANY brand and not the fault of the Goodman equipment. In fact, it is the FAULT OF THE INSTALLER not knowing how to do his job!




Goodman authorizes one piece hardstart capacitors and I have personally found them to be less of a hassle and longer lasting then seperate capacitor/relay components. Just a personal observation, nothing against the potential relay start kits.

[Swampfox]

Robo, He said in his post the evaps were First Co.

otduk, check to see what type metering device these have and post back

[honglo]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by honglo
otduk,
Those one piece hard starts sold like (candy) in supply houses are NOT true hard start kits. They only help when used on non-txv systems. If your evaporators are of txv design, you MUST use a REAL hard start kit. This is true of ANY brand and not the fault of the Goodman equipment. In fact, it is the FAULT OF THE INSTALLER not knowing how to do his job!




Goodman authorizes one piece hardstart capacitors and I have personally found them to be less of a hassle and longer lasting then seperate capacitor/relay components. Just a personal observation, nothing against the potential relay start kits.


RoboTeq,

I am aware that Goodman authorizes the one piece start kit but just because Goodman says it's ok, doesn't make it all right. My experience has been less (rosey) than yours. I've had compressors fail within 24 hours when I was (forced by the boss to sell one on every call). When it would happen I just refered the owner to the boss and let them slug it out.

I then started reserching on my own the merits of the two designs and found out that every compressor has different starting characteristics. One would require this pickup voltage and the other would require (this) dropout voltage. I began to accumulate all (common) relays and start capacitors and eventually had enough combinations to start 74 different model/brands of compressors.

Now when I see anyone walk into a supply house and pick up one of those 1 size fits all start kits, I just shake my head and grin. (been there done that)

Note:
When you get old, fat and bald, people expect you to do that every now and then. :)

My advice to anyone wanting to install a start kit. Don't ask the manufacturer of the unit, rather, Look up the specs from the manufacturer of the compressor.

In fact, I have found that when ever I see one of these (1sizefitsall) start kits, Yes, I know there are 2 sizes but I also know that I'm liable to find a run capacitor out that the previous tech just didn't have a clue or the proper tools to check.

It is especially funny when they ask the counter guy which one they should use on this 5 ton 3phase package unit their working on.

[RoBoTeq]

We have definitely had different experiences with hard start components. Are you referring to the PTC start assists maybe?

When I repped for Rheem/Ruud we had to tell contractors to only use the potential relay and capacitor kit that Rheem/Ruud authorized for each system. The relay gave me more of a fit with overheating, locking open and exploding when it shorted out than I care to remember.

Conversely, I never had one problem when I replaced them with a SuperBoost. I also replaced every exploded PTC I found in Carriers with a SuperBoost and have never regretted it.

[honglo]

Roboteq,


Why don't we just http://www.click-smilies.de/schnellauswahl/ernaehrung004.gif on this one.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by honglo
Roboteq,


Why don't we just http://www.click-smilies.de/schnellauswahl/ernaehrung004.gif on this one.

Sounds like the best idea. I have absolutely nothing to support my opinion on this other than what I have experienced and I hear others support your view all the time. This one may be like the Ford/Chevy and White Rodgers/Honeywell issues. We sometimes just have our own personal favorites.

So....http://www.click-smilies.de/schnellauswahl/ernaehrung004.gif right back attcha :D

[frozensolid]

Or your just a good employee Robo, and you would not say it's a POS even if you thought it was.


Your statement
Sounds like the best idea. I have absolutely nothing to support my opinion on this other than what I have experienced and I hear others support your view all the time.

You have nothing to support your opinion other than your own experience. How many service calls a day do you take? I would expect that we (others) do far more service calls than you. Previously you commented that anyone who questioned the quality of Goodman did not know anything about this industry.

Any company that blindly defends its product while ignoring input from those who are doing the work, is just plain out of touch with reality. Goodman is all about doing it on the cheap, quality is only a tool for marketing Reps.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by frozensolid
Or your just a good employee Robo, and you would not say it's a POS even if you thought it was.


Your statement
Sounds like the best idea. I have absolutely nothing to support my opinion on this other than what I have experienced and I hear others support your view all the time.

You have nothing to support your opinion other than your own experience. How many service calls a day do you take? I would expect that we (others) do far more service calls than you. Previously you commented that anyone who questioned the quality of Goodman did not know anything about this industry.

Any company that blindly defends its product while ignoring input from those who are doing the work, is just plain out of touch with reality. Goodman is all about doing it on the cheap, quality is only a tool for marketing Reps.


Your comments are asinine and degrading, mostly to your intellect.

I have already stated that my experiences span more than the brand I currently rep for. I have constantly stated that I am on this forum as myself and do not represent any company or organization. I have berated the product I represent in my work when it is needed and have praised the competition on numerous occasions.

No, you cannot possibly be exposed to anywhere near the amount of troublesome equipment that I am exposed to. Troubleshooting is what I do all day long, day in and day out. I keep my phone on in the evenings and on weekends for those techs that are on the job at those times.

Your comments are nothing but offensive BS and I personally resent your remarks. If you want to delete your post and forget about this I will be glad to delete this one as well. Otherwise it will stand that you are an ignorant ass as to assume the things you have made commentary on about me here.

[frozensolid]

No deletion necessary, if I am ignorant so be it.

[Diceman]

I ain't getting in the middle of this one but I will say that I have used super boost thingys for years on all types of equipment and had no problems with them.
I like em cause you know...........I am lazy...:D

[royc]

I just ordered a bunch of these.

http://www.supco.com/eclass.htm

Roy

[midhvac]

I've had problems with all of the start devices at one time or another, but the "Kickstart" has never failed to blow up at the most inopportune time :D

I ain't NEVER buyin another one.

I guess the upside is, I haven't worn the contents of one home on my shirt yet, like one of my colleagues did :D

[midhvac]

Originally posted by royc
I just ordered a bunch of these.

http://www.supco.com/eclass.htm

Roy

I hope it doesn't have that same relay in it they used to sell for a solid state universal relay.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by Diceman
I ain't getting in the middle of this one but I will say that I have used super boost thingys for years on all types of equipment and had no problems with them.
I like em cause you know...........I am lazy...:D

I must admit, this was my initial motivation for using these things. It drove me crazy the years I repped for Rheem/Ruud that they would not let me authorize the use of these things. When I went to work for Goodman I was grateful to see they were ok with them.

[RoBoTeq]

Hell, I've run up to three of those KickStarts in parallel in order to unstick a compressor that wanted to go. The only really bad experience I have had with a stuck compressor was a four ton Bristol in a Rheem that sounded like it wanted to go but just wouldn't kick over. After putting the second (and last I had on my truck) KickStart capacitor on the thing really tried to start but went out on thermal. On it's next try I kicked the damned compressor hoping to shake whatever was binding it loose. It started. It sounded really, really bad, it shook the ground. Then I noticed a spot of paint peeling off of the side of the compressor housing.....then the spot turned red and I jammed myself against the bushes and the brick wall of the house went it bleW!!!!!!

When it finally did throw the breaker it was too late. The compressor had a hole in the side of it and there was burnt, nasty compressor oil all over the place.

Oh well, it needed to be changed anyway.

[frozensolid]

Robo when looking back on that event, do you see it as a mistake learned from, or just part of the job?

[Diceman]

It's what makes this biz fun..............
Stuff blowing up.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by frozensolid
Robo when looking back on that event, do you see it as a mistake learned from, or just part of the job?

I'd do it again, only with a better exit plan :D

[Edmund Forsthe]

flakvest and face shield?

[bja105]

I'm glad I'm not the only lazy guy who likes the supco hard starts. I've never had one blow up, but I did have a stuck potential relay blow up a start cap in my face (and eye.) If the super boost thingy doesn't start it, they need a new system.

On a related note, the only good part of this site anymore is watching Robin get riled up, and his responses. Maybe we could have a seperate forum for Goodman bashing and Robo-baiting. Some of us are masters!

[Stamas]

Are great for the toolboxes. Helpful tools with locked comp. problems. But I have have seen more than a few SPP assists blow/burn up and prefer to use relay type start kits.

[frozensolid]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by frozensolid
Robo when looking back on that event, do you see it as a mistake learned from, or just part of the job?

I'd do it again, only with a better exit plan :D

Thats no surprise. I figured next time you would use Four.

[frozensolid]

Originally posted by Stamas
Are great for the toolboxes. Helpful tools with locked comp. problems. But I have have seen more than a few SPP assists blow/burn up and prefer to use relay type start kits.

They do help in a pinch, though I see them as a temporary solution in a quality situation. If you need to do it on the cheap, leave it there.

The nice thing about being an ignorant ass, (as I was described by egoteq earlier in this thread) is not knowing I should use two or three kick starts at a time.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by frozensolid

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by frozensolid
Robo when looking back on that event, do you see it as a mistake learned from, or just part of the job?

I'd do it again, only with a better exit plan :D

Thats no surprise. I figured next time you would use Four.

If a compressor is trying to start, I'll do whatever I can to get it going. What's the alternative? You're going to replace the compressor anyway if it doesn't start, right?

I've made more than one technician look bad when I got a system up and running after they declared it dead.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by bja105
On a related note, the only good part of this site anymore is watching Robin get riled up, and his responses. Maybe we could have a seperate forum for Goodman bashing and Robo-baiting. Some of us are masters!

Actually, I come to forums like this for enjoyment and to learn from my peers. I don't post if I am riled. If I happen to get riled, it is no fun anymore and I will simply stop posting.

[frozensolid]

I have no doubt, that you have made a lot of technicians look bad.

[noaccme]

i have used the superboosters and have managed to get some locked up compressors started but a majority of them ime back out there in a week or so on a burnout or blown fuse or circuit breaker.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by noaccme
i have used the superboosters and have managed to get some locked up compressors started but a majority of them ime back out there in a week or so on a burnout or blown fuse or circuit breaker.

The key is to find out what caused the lock up. If all we do is get the unit started and assume it was a fluke that it locked up, then we are likely to have the same thing happen again.

I find most locked up systems are either overcharged, the condensor fan is lacking, the condensor coil is dirty or there is something causing a high subcooling.