Stricter laws to protect homeowners?

[tipsrfine]

How many people would support tougher regulation to insure that when a homeowner calls a company in regards to a HVAC concern/problem they are having that the person the company sends out actually knows what the heck they are doing?
I just see so many threads started here by home owners that clearly indicate the person and/or company they had come out were ignorant of even some of the basic knowledge they should have to do such work that it has me thinking.
Personally I think tougher regulation would help homeowners and the hvac industry. The practice of sending out an apprentice fresh out of school alone, even to just do clean & checks is wrong in my opinion, and is un-fair to the public. The old school system of a Master technician, Journeyman, & apprentice should be re-instituted & enforced. An apprentice SHOULD spend some years being trained & be accompanied at all times by a journeyman before being allowed to work alone.
I feel such regulation would help get rid of the hack contractors & restore respect for the hvac trade that clearly many homeowners do not have for it.

[pageyjim]

How many people would support tougher regulation to insure that when a homeowner calls a company in regards to a HVAC concern/problem they are having that the person the company sends out actually knows what the heck they are doing?
I just see so many threads started here by home owners that clearly indicate the person and/or company they had come out were ignorant of even some of the basic knowledge they should have to do such work that it has me thinking.
Personally I think tougher regulation would help homeowners and the hvac industry. The practice of sending out an apprentice fresh out of school alone, even to just do clean & checks is wrong in my opinion, and is un-fair to the public. The old school system of a Master technician, Journeyman, & apprentice should be re-instituted & enforced. An apprentice SHOULD spend some years being trained & be accompanied at all times by a journeyman before being allowed to work alone.
I feel such regulation would help get rid of the hack contractors & restore respect for the hvac trade that clearly many homeowners do not have for it.

I think the HVAC industry has been missing an opportunity. Regulations would make it harder for hacks doing side jobs etc. We would get more respect when we are at peoples homes. It always cracks me up how much respect a homeowner has for an electrician. No disrespect meant to electricians but we have to know so much more in my opinion. And it would add protection to the homeowner. And it would come at a price.

[tipsrfine]

I just read some info from some state about electrical apprentices. It states they shall be supervised AT ALL TIMES by a journeyman. Maybe that's where the respect comes from.

[sui generis]

Has your ability remained the same since your first few service calls? Gotta start somewhere. You're not gonna learn it from a book. You're not gonna learn it with a mentor standing over your shoulder. Some of the best guys on here were just thrown into it. The market is your regulation. You screw up, you lose business. You do good, you gain business. That's on top of the licensing and certification.

The same applies for ANY job or industry, except the gov't of course.

One of my favorite quotes, by Richard Mitchell.

"Imagine an industry that consistently fails to do what it sets out to do, a factory where this year's product is invariably sleazier than last year's but, nevertheless, better than next year's. Imagine a corporation whose executives are always spending vast sums of money on studies designed to discover just what it is they are supposed to do and then vaster sums for further studies on just how to do it. Imagine a plant devoted to the manufacture of factory seconds to be sold at a loss. Imagine a producer of vacuum cleaners that rarely work hiring whole platoons of engineers who will, in time, report that it is, in fact, true that the vacuum cleaners rarely work, and who will, for a larger fee, be glad to find out why, if that's possible. If you discover some such outfit, don't invest in it. Unfortunately, we are all required to invest in public education."

That said, keep the government out of as much as possible.

[tipsrfine]

Has your ability remained the same since your first few service calls? Gotta start somewhere. You're not gonna learn it from a book. You're not gonna learn it with a mentor standing over your shoulder. Some of the best guys on here were just thrown into it. The market is your regulation. You screw up, you lose business. You do good, you gain business. That's on top of the licensing and certification.

The same applies for ANY job or industry, except the gov't of course.

One of my favorite quotes, by Richard Mitchell.

"Imagine an industry that consistently fails to do what it sets out to do, a factory where this year's product is invariably sleazier than last year's but, nevertheless, better than next year's. Imagine a corporation whose executives are always spending vast sums of money on studies designed to discover just what it is they are supposed to do and then vaster sums for further studies on just how to do it. Imagine a plant devoted to the manufacture of factory seconds to be sold at a loss. Imagine a producer of vacuum cleaners that rarely work hiring whole platoons of engineers who will, in time, report that it is, in fact, true that the vacuum cleaners rarely work, and who will, for a larger fee, be glad to find out why, if that's possible. If you discover some such outfit, don't invest in it. Unfortunately, we are all required to invest in public education."

That said, keep the government out of as much as possible.

Nice words, and of course I expected such. The reality is they are just crap words, in light of the reality of what is happening every day out there, and yes, you WILL learn it by being with a trained & skilled journeyman by your side. "Gotta learn it somewhere"-go tell that to "Sweatinit".

[sui generis]

Being trained and skilled doesn't correlate to getting it right all the time, every time. Whether you have a callback ratio of 1/200 or 1/5, doesn't matter to the homeowner whose equipment you didn't fix. THAT is the reality. Regulation won't keep a handyman from trying to diagnose and fix something. I'm not arguing that green guys should be "given a shot." No boss that I've ever met will send someone unqualified to do a job. I'm just saying that I don't think regulation will change anything except the price gap between what we must charge to stay in business and what the hacks already flying under the radar charge. People will still flock to the cheapest price. THAT is the reality.

[beshvac]

The difficulty with more rules is who is going to enforce them? Not enforcing the current laws puts my legal company at a disadvantage.

My company is legally licensed, with all the insurance in place, I do manual J, D, S and stand behind my work......then I lose jobs to unlicensed individuals, or companies that do not follow the codes (no permits).

In my state, I am not licensed to do electrical and need to bring an electrician in for extra cost. And then we lose the job because another HVAC contractor (not licensed in electrical) does the (illegal) electrical modifications. Happened to me last week-new outdoor unit was to be relocated to other side of the house. this required new wires run from the panel and that is supposed to be done by a licensed electrician with permits. The company that got the work hacked it in themselves. Of course they could beat me on price.............

[Airmechanical]

Nice words, and of course I expected such. The reality is they are just crap words, in light of the reality of what is happening every day out there, and yes, you WILL learn it by being with a trained & skilled journeyman by your side. "Gotta learn it somewhere"-go tell that to "Sweatinit".

you know, the post below DOES make sense, i just have a comment on the part in red



Has your ability remained the same since your first few service calls? Gotta start somewhere. You're not gonna learn it from a book. You're not gonna learn it with a mentor standing over your shoulder. Some of the best guys on here were just thrown into it. The market is your regulation. You screw up, you lose business. You do good, you gain business. That's on top of the licensing and certification.

The same applies for ANY job or industry, except the gov't of course.

One of my favorite quotes, by Richard Mitchell.

"Imagine an industry that consistently fails to do what it sets out to do, a factory where this year's product is invariably sleazier than last year's but, nevertheless, better than next year's. Imagine a corporation whose executives are always spending vast sums of money on studies designed to discover just what it is they are supposed to do and then vaster sums for further studies on just how to do it. Imagine a plant devoted to the manufacture of factory seconds to be sold at a loss. Imagine a producer of vacuum cleaners that rarely work hiring whole platoons of engineers who will, in time, report that it is, in fact, true that the vacuum cleaners rarely work, and who will, for a larger fee, be glad to find out why, if that's possible. If you discover some such outfit, don't invest in it. Unfortunately, we are all required to invest in public education."

That said, keep the government out of as much as possible.


you can learn it with a mentor but it would take a lot longer to learn that way

plus;

non union companies are not willing to spend the money to have Journeymen babysitters!

i like the "electrician rule" where a journeyman is always watching an apprentice

but that "rule" is only gauranteed on union jobs

union HVAC jobs always have a journeyman onsite to overlook things



.

[tipsrfine]

Being trained and skilled doesn't correlate to getting it right all the time, every time. Whether you have a callback ratio of 1/200 or 1/5, doesn't matter to the homeowner whose equipment you didn't fix. THAT is the reality. Regulation won't keep a handyman from trying to diagnose and fix something. I'm not arguing that green guys should be "given a shot." No boss that I've ever met will send someone unqualified to do a job. I'm just saying that I don't think regulation will change anything except the price gap between what we must charge to stay in business and what the hacks already flying under the radar charge. People will still flock to the cheapest price. THAT is the reality.

Happens EVERY day everywhere, and just 'cause you're the "boss" don't mean you know jack either. By "you're", I don't mean you. My last boss has been in business for 30 years, and the stories I could tell you about him.

[Airmechanical]

No boss that I've ever met will send someone unqualified to do a job.

unfortunately from what i have seen that statement is inaccurate



.

[Mr Bill]

Happens EVERY day everywhere, and just 'cause you're the "boss" don't mean you know jack either. By "you're", I don't mean you. My last boss has been in business for 30 years, and the stories I could tell you about him.

O well, were just speaking hypothetically here anyway, right? Folks have been trying to change the standard in this trade since the late 60's, not much has changed, but a lot of money has been collected in the name of change, carry on Solder we need more folks with your dream. http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/yes.gif

[DeltaT]

We have a nation full of children who have been raised under the primise of rules and regulations that deminish the roll of the parents. Some of those kids are now in their 40's and are running our local, state and federal governments.

And some of those kids are running our corporations in America.

So which era is better? The era in which parents were responsible for their children? Or the present era in which rules and regulations raise our children?

The same can be said for our industry and all industries.

When we had journeyman/apprentice relationships where skill and intergrity came first? Or the present era where anything that someone preceives to be wrong can be corrected by more government rules and regulations?

Is our industy better for the massive amount of rules and regulations that now comfront us? Or was our industy better just a few short decades ago?

[tipsrfine]

you know, the post below DOES make sense, i just have a comment on the part in red





you can learn it with a mentor but it would take a lot longer to learn that way

plus;

non union companies are not willing to spend the money to have Journeymen babysitters!

i like the "electrician rule" where a journeyman is always watching an apprentice

but that "rule" is only gauranteed on union jobs

union HVAC jobs always have a journeyman onsite to overlook things



.

Then maybe the unions should completely take over the industry, if they are the only ones to make sure the public isn't being screwed over by cheap hack companies sending out un-qualified techs to home owners.

[Music Seeker]

So then no one will ever get into the field that's new. So then what will happen when everyone is complaining that there aren't enough service techs to go around? Not every company can afford to have people doubled up for upwards of five years (that's what is required to get a Journeyman's license in Iowa) so that's why companies try to get people out there. I've learned so much more in the two months I've been in the field than I've learned in my first year of schooling

I'm glad to have this schooling, but these damn politicians here keep wanting to tighten up the regulations in a job market that frankly sucks d***. I'm tired of hearing people complain about hack contractors. You know what you do with them? Don't hire them, tell your friends about what bad work they do, word of mouth gets around so fast. Those people still should be found out and brought out for what they are.

Before condemning students, try condemning the true cause of the problem...I get so tired of hearing people throw the college student out with the books, because they're just "too new," and not giving them a chance to prove if they are worth their salt! If someone can't apply anything they've learned in the first year of schooling, after an 8 week internship, then they need more work or they need to hang it up.

[wptski]

Many years ago a licensed electrician with 20 years on the job wired the attic fan when the installer's methods kept on blowing a fuse. It worked fine but as the weather turn cold, started to hear a noise! Darn thing was running all the time.

Climbed up there with tester in hand but not really needed to diagnose the problem. The thermostat's leads were tied together or not in the circuit at all.

Needless to say, that motor didn't last too long as it was running ever since it was installled.

A license means nothing!

[Mr Bill]

Is our industry better for the massive amount of rules and regulations that now comfront us? Or was our industry better just a few short decades ago?

I will go with decade ago, in my personal experience, I saw less hack jobs decades ago, and there was at least "some structure". We all better Pray "if your a Praying person" that we don't have any Government intervention, if we do, all the less fortunate and minorities will be issued Licenses to perform this work, it might become "Federal Law" which we all have seen lately supersedes State law, better keep the Government as far away as possible.

[Mr Bill]

I'm tired of hearing people complain about hack contractors. You know what you do with them? Don't hire them, tell your friends about what bad work they do, word of mouth gets around so fast. Those people still should be found out and brought out for what they are.

It's not just the hacks fault, it's the tight butts of this Country that keep the hacks going, as long as you have folks looking for a "deal" there will be hacks, how long do you think it will be before folks quit looking for deals? my guess is never.

[tipsrfine]

So then no one will ever get into the field that's new. So then what will happen when everyone is complaining that there aren't enough service techs to go around? Not every company can afford to have people doubled up for upwards of five years (that's what is required to get a Journeyman's license in Iowa) so that's why companies try to get people out there. I've learned so much more in the two months I've been in the field than I've learned in my first year of schooling

I'm glad to have this schooling, but these damn politicians here keep wanting to tighten up the regulations in a job market that frankly sucks d***. I'm tired of hearing people complain about hack contractors. You know what you do with them? Don't hire them, tell your friends about what bad work they do, word of mouth gets around so fast. Those people still should be found out and brought out for what they are.

Before condemning students, try condemning the true cause of the problem...I get so tired of hearing people throw the college student out with the books, because they're just "too new," and not giving them a chance to prove if they are worth their salt! If someone can't apply anything they've learned in the first year of schooling, after an 8 week internship, then they need more work or they need to hang it up.

The part in red answer is "supply & demand". The freaking hacks go to hell & get a job doing something else & the real "professional techs" get to keep their job, rather than losing it to a "salesman". The new guys learn from the "real techs" and become professionals.

I am not saying not to give the new people a chance; I'm saying give them a REAL chance. Your statement in blue is proof of what I'm saying. 8 weeks is not enough time to be on your own. If you had pro membership I would direct you to the pro membership forums where you could take some written test of your skills, and I'm sure you would be humbled when confronted with your lack of real knowledge, and that doesn't even mean squat in the field.

[tipsrfine]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFHJ41ktt3Q&feature=related

[tipsrfine]

Not ONE HOMEOWNER has posted to this thread. No wonder they get screwed-too self centered;I can see why the experienced contractors don't give a damn about doing things right, and I can see why we are seeing "fundamental change" to this country. What is sad, is the "fundanmental change" we are seeing is the fact that 70% of this country are sheep & un-willing to fight for the country they grew up in. 70 something percent of californians created a state constitutional amendment that a court of "law" smacked down, & 70% of Americans are againts Health care reform, and yet it is now law. We are now being ruled by someone other than "the people" WAKE UP!
When I'm in a room or town or city and 7 out of 10 of us want it this way, and there is a power GREATER than us that make it the other way, I say "We The People... are now sheep! Do "We The People... run this country, or not? GLEN BECK strickes me as a punk that would bend over if you offered that back-side of your hand to him, but he makes sense.

[t527ed]

No boss that I've ever met will send someone unqualified to do a job.

to many unqualified "bosses" around for that to be true 100% of the time.

[Mr Bill]

Not ONE HOMEOWNER has posted to this thread. No wonder they get screwed-too self centered;I can see why the experienced contractors don't give a damn about doing things right, and I can see why we are seeing "fundamental change" to this country. .

But they do care, and would post, if it was about "if two a/c guys could marry each other". http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/1.gif

[just_opinion]

I don't know about your area. But in my area and what I've seen: Makes me sad. AND I speak in general term 75 - 80%

1) The students - They barely got the HS degree. Maybe the teacher gave them the diploma because they are out-grown other kids. They live off their parents. One day the house A/C broke and parents called the service man, who charge them a money to fix. Then the parents said "you go to A/C trade school or else I throw you out". These kid go to HVAC school because JUST because.

2) The teachers - These old bastard still teach capillary tubes.
They hates 2-speed Lennox unit
They hates heat pump
They sure hell lost when you hand them the electronic
ignition board
3) The school - They just want number of students in and out with DIPLOMA
They hired these 30 years experience HVAC guy to teach,
who never has no more than a HS diploma, has no further
education to keep up with the technologies.
4) The owner - They think A/C is the least important item in the house until
it breaks
They don't care where or how the unit installed as long as it is
in the house some how.
When they build the house, they know exactly where every
doggone light is. But the A/C - "whereever" and "Whatever"

After so many years serving too many people:
1) I do have a sense of who is good technician after his third sentence of HVAC. Good tech I keep. Bad tech I use in the summer.
2) Good customers, who care about their A/C, I teach them a thing or two for maintenance. For Bad customers, I work for the money with the mentality of "it is not my A/C unit" eventhough I give the same warranty and services. But if there is a missing screw, I ain't attic-craw an extra craw to the van to get the screw.

Don't get me wrong, HVAC industry help me raise my family well.

BUT If my kid wants to be a HVAC guy, I'll shoot myself. Because I have failed him and he should be much more than that.

[drewski11]

But they do care, and would post, if it was about "if two a/c guys could marry each other". http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/1.gif

Absolutely! If you and Tips want to tie the knot, I say go for it!

As for more gov't regulation. Sounds good in theory, but I won't hold my breath for stellar execution. Let's see how this health care reform & financial reform work out . . .

[ThirdCoastAC]

How many people would support tougher regulation to insure that when a homeowner calls a company in regards to a HVAC concern/problem they are having that the person the company sends out actually knows what the heck they are doing?
I just see so many threads started here by home owners that clearly indicate the person and/or company they had come out were ignorant of even some of the basic knowledge they should have to do such work that it has me thinking.
Personally I think tougher regulation would help homeowners and the hvac industry. The practice of sending out an apprentice fresh out of school alone, even to just do clean & checks is wrong in my opinion, and is un-fair to the public. The old school system of a Master technician, Journeyman, & apprentice should be re-instituted & enforced. An apprentice SHOULD spend some years being trained & be accompanied at all times by a journeyman before being allowed to work alone.
I feel such regulation would help get rid of the hack contractors & restore respect for the hvac trade that clearly many homeowners do not have for it.

These regulations due exhist in the Union. The problem is somebody has to pay for all the training that is required and that person is the employer.
It costs money to have an "apprentice" riding along with a journeyman for several years. That cost has to be covered somehow? There is a reason union rates are so high.
I agree that only qualified people should be doing service work. The problem is experianced techs want more money, and rightfully so. Most companys can't afford to pay everyone top wages to do menial tasks like tune ups and maintenance.
The company I work for is very good about guaranteing work wheather it was done by a pro or a newb, so the customer is always covered.
I have however worked for companys that dont and that is wrong.
I see no problem giving new techs small jobs to do, it's how they learn. I have my degree in HVAC-R but I learnt more in 3 months being "thrown to the wolves" than I ever did in school. I've been doing this for a long time and I can honestly say the best techs I know have never gone to school or gone through specialized training.
Just my 2 cents.

[Mr Bill]

I've been doing this for a long time and I can honestly say the best techs I know have never gone to school or gone through specialized training.
Just my 2 cents.

I totally have to agree with you there Brother. http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l286/mrbillpro/yes.gif

[DeltaT]

Just two things.

The apprentice/journeyman was not in reference to unions, although they do have a good system in training their new one's. Apprentice/journeyman relationships have been around since horses needed shoeing, boat builders build boat and every other skilled trade necessary on this planet.

Myself and another contractor and his office manager wife, on a party on July 4th, were talking about how much time each of us spend in dealing with old and new regulations. I'm figuring about 18% to 22% of my time is spent on the administration of these rules and regulations set about to protect the public, or whatever.

They agreeded.

In Maryland in 1970 about 2% to 3% of my business time was used in dealing with the regulations that were in place for us HVAC business guys.

Has our field actually improved in quality, training, equipment and skill level since then? Not in my estimation. I'd say 70% of my new work is going over installed stuff put in by other companies.

The new & old regulations alone run businesses out of business, especially small businesses.

[udarrell]

I can't believe what I witnessed on my late brother's Oil furnace - when an old long time rural area H-VAC company added an A/C. It's still in the same horribly sad condition!

I'm not going to repeat it here... click my image, you can find that info on my web.:payattention:

[Mr Bill]

I can't believe what I witnessed on my late brother's Oil furnace - when an old long time rural area H-VAC company added an A/C. It's still in the same horribly sad condition!

I'm not going to repeat it here... click my image, you can find that info on my web.:payattention:

Darrell, it's not limited to old coots a/c and heating, I have seen some of the newer generations stuff also, so no generation has a patent on the slop.

[Airmechanical]

i don't usually enjoy country music but, loved that Merle Hagard song for this situation

it finally makes sense, i have been coming home to my wife for the past 10 or 15 years and telling her that i could not beleive some of the stuff i was seeing out in the feild as far as hacked up equipment

you guys see it on a daily basis as well, i thought it was my badluck, but it's not

noone has pride anymore, i know you guys on here do, i am talking about the other 95% of a/c guys

i really enjoy my job, i know i come off rude to you guys, but you must realize the passion

for the guy who does not want his son doing HVAC, it sounds like your not happy with your job

just a little more trivial information here, back in 1980 when i started;

if you did not do the job correctly and clean up when you were done, you were fired

if you made the same stupid mistake twice, you were fired

if you missed more than 1 day out of 6 months "unless excused", you were fired

it's a different day an age i have no suggestions

but regulations just means one thing for sure, palms are gonna get greased



.

[tipsrfine]

i don't usually enjoy country music but, loved that Merle Hagard song for this situation

it finally makes sense, i have been coming home to my wife for the past 10 or 15 years and telling her that i could not beleive some of the stuff i was seeing out in the feild as far as hacked up equipment

you guys see it on a daily basis as well, i thought it was my badluck, but it's not

noone has pride anymore, i know you guys on here do, i am talking about the other 95% of a/c guys

i really enjoy my job, i know i come off rude to you guys, but you must realize the passion

for the guy who does not want his son doing HVAC, it sounds like your not happy with your job

just a little more trivial information here, back in 1980 when i started;

if you did not do the job correctly and clean up when you were done, you were fired

if you made the same stupid mistake twice, you were fired

if you missed more than 1 day out of 6 months "unless excused", you were fired

it's a different day an age i have no suggestions

but regulations just means one thing for sure, palms are gonna get greased



.

You're a "working man", embrace country music & join this side of The Force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSn9pXJjRi0&feature=related

[Airmechanical]

i tell ya what, if this country song don't do it for ya, none will


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gKlBGjDbfI



.

[tipsrfine]

i tell ya what, if this country song don't do it for ya, none will


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gKlBGjDbfI



.

You're good to go! I love a lot of different music, but country has that heart & real soul that I don't find in anything else. My wife (before we met) never liked country music. She digs it now 'cause of how I spoon feed it to her. She cried when I played her that video by Travis Tritt "Best of Intentions" when I got laid off recently and I was feeling a bit down. I promised her "the moon" and had my plans all laid out & then we hit this snag. That's what I love about country music, there is a song that captures every moment in a human beings life.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/sy-14211034/travis_tritt_best_of_intentions_official_music_vid eo/

[Airmechanical]

Q-you know what happens when you play a country song backwards

A-you get your money, house, dog, and your wife back



.

[tipsrfine]

This thread has given me a good insight into what contractors have learned over the years through dealing with homeowners. First guy that comes along that says " I can get it for you WHOLESALE" gets the job. Then they want to come here and be the little victim and cry "How could this have happened to me?"
What's even funnier to me is when the shoe is on the other foot. I remember my last boss pitching a fit over what his auto mechanic would charge him for parts & services, and the last journeyman I worked with crying about what his dentist was charging him. Neither one of these guys now cared about the other guys cost of doing business or the cost of THEIR continueing education & overhead of their business. Makes you wish you could win the lotery just so you could sit back & laugh at everyone & their hipocracy.

[commerce48]

This thread started about regulation and drifted to education. I'd like to comment on education and experience.

I'm a nurse. For most of their history, nursing was on the job training. Literally. Hospitals trained nurses for several years and they lived on the grounds. This was a diploma system. Since the fifties or so, there has been a shift to didactic (classroom) degreed nurses over practical trained nurses. The research evidence has been overwhelming that a couple years out of school, degreed nurses pass diploma nurses in proficiency and diploma nurses never catch up. The evidence is so overwhelming that the rest of the world, notably Great Britain and the commonwealth countries have switched over their nursing education.

Despite the research evidence, the reaction of old nurses to degreed nurses is that they can't do diddly. And this is true right out of school but not later in their career.

This is the same thing I'm hearing here about a different trade/profession that requires a good deal of fundamental knowledge to be able to be more than a monkey see kind of tech.

Of course, exceptional and subpar techs will come out of both groups, but what is the preferred baseline of the person you want working on your HVAC? Or treating you in the hospital? Someone who understands what they are doing, or someone who learned solely by rote?

[ThirdCoastAC]

This is the same thing I'm hearing here about a different trade/profession that requires a good deal of fundamental knowledge to be able to be more than a monkey see kind of tech.




Who says just because a tech didn't go to school they are a "monkey see, monkey do" Tech?
I have my degree but I learnt most of what I know in the field. Just because someone doesn't go through specialized training doesn't mean they don't understand their trade in depth. Our senior tech has been doing this for the same amount of time as I have. I went to school and he didn't, but he is hands down the better tech. Some people just retain things better and I do believe it is that simple.

[belliott]

Times sure have changed. I grew up in a family of plumbers. My appreticeship involved working with my father and grandfather afterschool and weekends. I went to plumbing school 2 nights and week. My grandfather had 3 rules: Plumb, Level and Square.
I still meet techs, both plumbing and hvac that do good work. I feel both industries have "sold out" in a way. After my grandfather retired and my father passed away I applied with a local mechanical company that offered both plumbing and hvac. As I applied, I touted my experience, knowlege and skills in both fields. The owner of the company just looked at me and asked " Yeah, but can you sell?" My reply " I guess".

The majority of customers don't respect any of the trades, and so they beat he contractors down on price. To compete with other companies they become slammers and hacks. Get in,get out,and go on. A customer will call 4 or 5 contractors and they will fight in the yard to see who can get the job done the soonest and the cheapest.

I think alot of technicians have become " parts changers". They go to a service call and rely on the newer systems to diagnose itself or they call they 1-800 tech line while the customers not looking. If it is an older system they tell the home owner brand X is junk, it's not worth repairing, or it is obsolete and needs to replaced. If they can't "SELL" a new system, they make a half-hearted attempt at making a repair and it does not work. Now the homeowner tries a few more companies that do basically the same thing until they are finally wore down and sign a contract to install a system that is oversized, over-fanned and over-hyped.

I don't know what the answer is. I think more regulation makes it hard for good people to do business and make a profit. If the supply of contractors is small and the demand is larger, it opens the door for more unqualified handimen and unlicensed hacks. I get tired of seeing beat up Chevy S-10 pickups in the parking lot at Lowes, that advertise plumbing,hvac and everthing else with no license number. It's illeagal in Arkansas and our local goverment won't enforce it.

I don't see how laws protecting homeowners would help anyone, Most homeowners are their own worst enemy when it comes to their home.

[dan sw fl]

The difficulty with more rules is who is going to enforce them? Not enforcing the current laws puts my legal company at a disadvantage.

My company is legally licensed, with all the insurance in place, I do manual J, D, S and stand behind my work......then I lose jobs to unlicensed individuals, or companies that do not follow the codes (no permits).

In my state, I am not licensed to do electrical and need to bring an electrician in for extra cost. And then we lose the job because another HVAC contractor (not licensed in electrical) does the (illegal) electrical modifications. Happened to me last week-new outdoor unit was to be relocated to other side of the house. this required new wires run from the panel and that is supposed to be done by a licensed electrician with permits. The company that got the work hacked it in themselves. Of course they could beat me on price.............

What did the VA building code inspector do when you informed him of the electrical work being performed without a permit?

[Twilly]

Twilli says while this idea sounds like a good idea, Twilli has found out in reality the only one that gets punished is the licensed contractor who follows the rules. Generally even were laws exist there is little to no enforcement and in most case the laws only punish licensed guys who screw up, not the unlicensed.

Twilli says the laws should prosecute homeowners who hire the unlicensed.

As far as a tech not knowing what he is doing, everyone has to go through a learning curve, and a "good" company will have steps in place to get the less skilled immediate helpwhen they run into something they can't repair.

[tipsrfine]

Twilli says while this idea sounds like a good idea, Twilli has found out in reality the only one that gets punished is the licensed contractor who follows the rules. Generally even were laws exist there is little to no enforcement and in most case the laws only punish licensed guys who screw up, not the unlicensed.

Twilli says the laws should prosecute homeowners who hire the unlicensed.

As far as a tech not knowing what he is doing, everyone has to go through a learning curve, and a "good" company will have steps in place to get the less skilled immediate helpwhen they run into something they can't repair.

Sounds about right to me. Maybe the state could just run a few educational ads telling the public if they go to a company that doesn't have (whatever licence & logo) then don't worry about trying to sue 'cause the state don't want to hear it.

[Twilly]

Twilli knows that while the state of Ohio has laws Twilli also knows it has few teeth and while they give an occasional gum job it does little to deter the "unlicensed".

Toledo used to do a better job, but they have gone from 4 inpsector to 2 and they have little to no time to enforce licenseing violations. Toledo does require licensed journeymen. That will be enforced if the inspector should happen upon a job in progress.

Twilli should be code enforcement officer and Twilli do a 50-50 split with city and state. Twilli pay own expenses.

[behappy]

How many people would support tougher regulation

The practice of sending out an apprentice fresh out of school alone, even to just do clean & checks is wrong in my opinion, and is un-fair to the public.



Many Moons ago I worked in Boca Raton Fla.
All "service techs" had to pass a test and get a card to work (City thing).

After working for three month the test came up and I took it. Simple what is the proper chilled water supply temps, what does a compressor do etc. type questions. I think 25 questions in all. If you failed, you got to take it again in another 6 months, but you could still work! There was guys in my company who had failed it 3 times and was still working, waiting to take it again. There were guys you learned the test and that was all they knew!

Basically screw government regulations, throw them all in a bag, shake it up and let the market take care of it.

The less knowable service people will sooner or later run out of employment.
And go into selling used cars.:D

The "hack" businesses will only stay around for a couple of years (we all have seen that). And the people who shop for lowest price, will get the HIGHEST repair bill. IMHO

[Mr Bill]

The "hack" businesses will only stay around for a couple of years (we all have seen that). And the people who shop for lowest price, will get the HIGHEST repair bill. IMHO

Couple Years? Not in Houston! I see some that have been here for 40 years and still trucking strong. :eek:

[hearthman]

Commerce48 remarked about the shortcomings of diploma'd nurses over degreed nurses as an example of education changes. My experience has been exactly the opposite. Degreed nurses come out of school not knowing how to start IV or give meds. It ends up the diploma and AD degree nurses teach the BSRNs these hands-on skills because they were never taught in college. My wife is a diploma nurse with 32yrs of ICU experience. She is the pet of the cardiac surgeons because of her advanced care and sense of the patient's condition. She teaches nursing students all the time and it is the BS degree students who stand back very aloof stating they don't get their hands dirty while the AD degree tech school nurses dive right in. I saw this same relationship in my EMS career as a paramedic.

So too with HVAC and trades. There must be a better balance btw didactic instruction and hands-on skills and application. However, to me the most important component is re-certification. In EMS, we had to sit through about 70 hrs of refresher training every 3 yrs include FULL hands-on State Boards skills testing. I think the HVAC industry would do well to copy this model because it combines the classroom updates on latest technology, codes and equipment with the practical application and skills refresher.

There are a lot of various certification programs in many disciplines out there. No cert. is a guarantee to a homeowner nor is licensure. The best indicator to a homeowner of competence is periodic mandatory in-house training, periodic formal recertification and a culture of third party education and training. When you can document to a homeowner the training history of each technician and how it is current, regular, mandatory, effective and encouraged, you will see homeowners respond.

Who would you call to your daughter's house if you were visiting from out of town: a company that posted each tech's credentials and training online or Bubba, who's daddy taught him how to braise? Do you post a systematic checklist for semi-annual maintenance and diagnostic calls or just go freestyle? Does your protocol require readings from instrumentation? Do you record the make, model, serial numbers, age of equipment, layout, take photos, etc. so if they call you know exactly what they have or do you have to wait until you get there to see you don't have the proper parts or replacements on your truck thus triggering a callback?

It all ties together. A tech who aced a tech program and worked his way up through the guild system is still a loser if he does not have these integrated holistic support systems in place.

Now, where can you point to a comprehensive educational program that does not conflict with other major programs and certs? You can't because everyone in this industry thinks they are experts and only they know how things really should be. It's time to get humble and get comprehensive.

[behappy]

Couple Years? Not in Houston! I see some that have been here for 40 years and still trucking strong. :eek:

Bill, Do you see customers calling these people back as long term customers?
Or do customers get frustrated and call you to repair. Cha Ching....

Houston just has a bigger fool base. :D

[Twilly]

Come to Twilli's skool of heatin and coolin. EPA license optional.

[Mr Bill]

everyone in this industry thinks they are experts and only they know how things really should be. It's time to get humble and get comprehensive.

Mr. Bill is an exception, he knows he is no expert,"everyone read this?" :D he is a very humble person, and not to prideful to call up someone and ask a question, done this many times. It's funny, you have less regulation 30 years ago and things were better IMO, and more regulation today and are now worse. We better hope the Big Government don't decide to get involved, you can forget all your state rules and regulations, They will also be giving Jose all the schooling he needs to get his license to perform his work "anywhere" in the US. and of course lets not forget free Insurance. :D

[Mr Bill]

Bill, Do you see customers calling these people back as long term customers?
Or do customers get frustrated and call you to repair. Cha Ching....

Houston just has a bigger fool base. :D

Well, yes and no, but when your a blow and go hack, you might loose a few but not as many as you gain. Remember it's the customers fault also, as I have said before, as long as customers look for deals, the hacks will thrive, as Sgt. Joe Friday would say, that just the facts ma"am. :D


Houston just has a bigger fool base. :D

O that toooo........

[Mr Bill]

Come to Twilli's skool of heatin and coolin. EPA license optional.

Twilli school must be Gove ment sponsored. :D

[Twilly]

Twilli has made thousands recharging ac's customers didnlt want to repair. God Bless em.

[EugeneTheJeep]

How many people would support tougher regulation to insure that when a homeowner calls a company in regards to a HVAC concern/problem they are having that the person the company sends out actually knows what the heck they are doing?
I just see so many threads started here by home owners that clearly indicate the person and/or company they had come out were ignorant of even some of the basic knowledge they should have to do such work that it has me thinking.
Personally I think tougher regulation would help homeowners and the hvac industry. The practice of sending out an apprentice fresh out of school alone, even to just do clean & checks is wrong in my opinion, and is un-fair to the public. The old school system of a Master technician, Journeyman, & apprentice should be re-instituted & enforced. An apprentice SHOULD spend some years being trained & be accompanied at all times by a journeyman before being allowed to work alone.
I feel such regulation would help get rid of the hack contractors & restore respect for the hvac trade that clearly many homeowners do not have for it.

To achieve this, there is going to be alot of one man band operations, because they are not going to be able to find much experienced help. And if I am a one man band I feel sorry for the poor fool with no heating or cooling, I am gonna be a little too tired and not really need to service this customer, who would wish they at least had a guy that needs more experience. Where are all these experienced techs coming from? Send some my way. Seems we need more schools in more locations, the problem is the lack of education in this complex field.

[behappy]

Now, where can you point to a comprehensive educational program that does not conflict with other major programs and certs? You can't because everyone in this industry thinks they are experts and only they know how things really should be. It's time to get humble and get comprehensive.

Totally agree, but...
I have become disenchanted with the NATE type certs. The manufacturers are not backing them ( like they said in the beginning) and they are not pro active (IMHO) to the market as of the home owner knowledge.

I wish that RSES would have stepped up to the plate. Again IMHO they are the only organization dedicated to this trade.

[Mr Bill]

Totally agree, but...
I have become disenchanted with the NATE type certs. The manufacturers are not backing them ( like they said in the beginning) .

Ah, I can see Mr. Bill's discernment, is still going strong.

[commerce48]

Commerce48 remarked about the shortcomings of diploma'd nurses over degreed nurses as an example of education changes. My experience has been exactly the opposite. Degreed nurses come out of school not knowing how to start IV or give meds. It ends up the diploma and AD degree nurses teach the BSRNs these hands-on skills because they were never taught in college. My wife is a diploma nurse with 32yrs of ICU experience. She is the pet of the cardiac surgeons because of her advanced care and sense of the patient's condition. She teaches nursing students all the time and it is the BS degree students who stand back very aloof stating they don't get their hands dirty while the AD degree tech school nurses dive right in. I saw this same relationship in my EMS career as a paramedic.

Actually, this is exactly what I said. Degreed nurses (including ADNs) graduate with no where near the hands on clinical experience of graduating diploma nurses. And look like idiots to experienced nurses. However their better educational foundation allows them to surpass diploma trained nurses fairly quickly. If the reverse was true, we would still have diploma programs.

And actually, the same is true for most professions. Doctor's require long residency programs; engineers, lawyers, accountants all have to work for someone else out of school to gain real world experience. Rare individuals can make it to the top of most any profession or trade without formal or usual training, but that shouldn't be allowed to be normal practice - as it probably is in HVAC. HVAC requires an unusual breadth of knowledge in several disciplines for best results.

[behappy]

Ah, I can see Mr. Bill's discernment, is still going strong.


:LOL:

[turner_mech]

Regulations won't affect the hacks they don't care. If you aren’t pulling permits and are working evening and weekend who will enforce the regulations after government hours?
In my area the local bodies have began very strict enforcement of codes and journeymen must be on site rules. But so far this has only effected the guys doing good work. We are the only ones who the regulations will affect. Believe me I am seeing it happen hear.

New regulations only make it harder to compete with the hacks of the world.

[wptski]

Twilli has made thousands recharging ac's customers didnlt want to repair. God Bless em.
Did Twilli ever think that some people might have enough in their budget for a recharge but not enough for a repair?

[genduct]

How is that regulation/ licensing thing working for the Medical or Financial (Stock Mkt) area? Not to say there isn't a lot of wisdom and frustration in your comments. I share your pain
How about Customers who ask if their journey people are NATE certified?
How about customers who don;t just shop for the low ball price?

Maybe someday, we all hope

[genduct]

Good Quote. Are you running for office. I'll vote for you