Need Advice: Need a new 4-Ton AC Unit & After Getting Quotes I'm confused

[rossmosh]

Hi guys,

About a week and a half ago my 15 year old Lennox AC died. It was a 4 ton, 2 stage unit. We also have a matching Lennox heater and air splitter. I live in a 2800 sq/ft home in Central NJ.

I've had 6 guys come in to give quotes and honestly each one results in more confusion. I won't mention the prices, but I'm honestly not impressed at all with the prices provided. It sounds like all the guys are selling at full price and then counting on the gov't rebates to bring the costs down to a more reasonable level.

So here are my questions.

1) So far we've had quotes for Lennox, York, Carrier, Goodman, and Air Ease. So far we've been tempted to stay with Lennox or York. What I can gather from reading on here and other palces, the Lennox is more complicated but more efficient. The York is simple, but not as efficient. Is there any brand I should really focus in on?

2) What about sticking with just replacing the AC and keeping the 15 year old heater? Are there any AC's that I can use with my current heater/air splitter that will achieve 16 SEER so I can get the gov't rebate that's a reasonable price?

3) Is it really worth going with a heater at the same time? Right now the quotes I'm getting are for AC & heater combos to get the federal money. The AC alone will not get the $1500. Will it be that more expensive if we have to replace the heater in 3-5 years?

Any help would be greatly appreciated

[skippedover]

I've answered some of your issues (some you don't even know you have I'll bet) with the attachments below. Read and pay attention. :payattention:

OKay, having said that, I'm assuming your 15-year old heater is natural gas fired, then I'd say yes, it's more cost efficient to do the whole system now. What I would suggest you strongly consider is substituting for the AC only system, a heat pump that will both cool in summer and heat down to about 35F in the winter. This gets more use from the AC system and less use for the gas furnace.

All manufacturer's are jumping on the Federal Tax Credit band wagon. It's getting tough to find a furnace that doesn't meet the requirements. However, what you need to know is that the FTC of $1,500 is derived from calculating 30% of the cost of qualifying products. It could be windows, doors, insulation, HVAC equipment, lighting or whatever. But the total aggregate is a maximum of $1,500. So shop accordingly. There are several forms you need for filing the FTC as well. The company you deal with ultimately should supply you with all FTC and any other rebate forms and provide all the documents you need to do the submissions. That includes multiple copies of invoices stating equipment model numbers, AHRI efficiency forms, manufacturer's statement of qualification (for FTC) and/or any other forms needed for rebates, outside of the FTC.

If you use the tips I've supplied in the attachments, I'd expect you can realize a satisfactory result. It's not going to cheap and the better equipment does cost considerably more. The purpose of the FTC is not to pay for the equipment for you but to be an incentive to spend at least $5,000 in Energy Star equipment.

Hope this all helps.

[rossmosh]

Thanks for the information skip. I've skimmed it over and learned several things. I'm going to study it further later in the day.

As for the furnace, I agree. We can't find one under 95% AFUE let alone under 92%. The cost of the furnace and install is easily enough to get the full $1500.

We'd like to do both the furnace and AC at once, but as the prices come in, they are significantly more than expected. I found some York units online for sale. Exact same units being offered by 2 of the quotes. I was amazed by the "costs" of the installation. Their hourly rate is 2x what I'd expect.

I was also hoping someone would be able to answer some of the specific questions I proposed about brands, an AC unit that with an old heater will be 16 seer, and the expensive of replacing the heater at a later date.

[Maikerum]

I will try to address your specific questions.

No a/c condensing unit alone will qualify for tax credit as 16 SEER.

They are referred to that way in sales literature and to identify the models as to what they are capable of, but the actual qualification to get the tax credit is how the SYSTEM is rated to perform as installed. That means the condensing unit has to be correctly paired with recognized combos of coils and blowers. The blowers are either part of a furnace or if no furnace, part of coil fan box.

The qualifying list of combinations are listed in an ARI list that is long and extensive covering a huge variety (though not all) of possible combinations of current equipment, each of which will be slightly more efficient, with a higher SEER, or less efficient, with a lower SEER.

But no one has likely tested or rated any combination of current condensers with your 15 year old furnace, so likely there is nothing that will qualify with current furnace. Its blower is probably such that even if it were tested, it would not provide the level of efficiency to qualify with any equipment.

No one on this site is likely to sympathize with you or comment much on your perception of their high labor rates, since all except a few of us homeowners are in the business. But that they have to both do tough manual labor in uncomfortable conditions plus have a high level of training and expertise (to do it right) makes it a high cost service, and you are also paying for design, not just installation.

Last, since to get the expected level of efficiency from your A/C or heat pump, you need a better fan, which is part of a furnace, and since the installation cost is a large part of the cost, by doing both furnace and A/C at the same time you probably get the best bang for your buck. Two separate installations cost a lot more than two at the same time for labor and design, even if you did not need the new furnace to get a qualifying SEER rating.

If you go the heat pump route, you may be able to economize on furnace by getting an 80% efficient furnace. The burn efficiency may not be higher than you have now, but the fan motor will be more efficient and get you the tax credit.

[seatonheating]

I think it's hilarious when someone brings up labor rates.

One, it's none of your business. Two, how do you know what it takes for me to stay in business?


Go ahead, buy that York equipment on the internet. Good luck to ya:whistle:

[rossmosh]

Seaton: I got 2 York quotes and did some research on the products. I found out reviews and happened to find someone selling complete systems. I wrote down the price and compared the two. I knew HVAC labor was high because of the training and costs, but honestly, this is the highest labor rate I've encountered in a while. I'm sorry if I stated my shock at the price. I can't imagine most people not being shocked when they get a bill that is as much as a car and then they find out 60% of the cost is in labor for a 2 day, 2 man job. I don't have a clue what it costs to run your business. I just simply stated my shock at the rate.

[drewski11]

Seaton: I got 2 York quotes and did some research on the products. I found out reviews and happened to find someone selling complete systems. I wrote down the price and compared the two. I knew HVAC labor was high because of the training and costs, but honestly, this is the highest labor rate I've encountered in a while. I'm sorry if I stated my shock at the price. I can't imagine most people not being shocked when they get a bill that is as much as a car and then they find out 60% of the cost is in labor for a 2 day, 2 man job. I don't have a clue what it costs to run your business. I just simply stated my shock at the rate.

Guessing the difference in costs of the internet equipment and your quote is not all labor. There's probably going to be a markup on the equipment wholesale cost to cover overhead, etc. Like Amazon vs. the mom & pop bookstore on the corner.

[udarrell]

I will address only the tonnage of the A/C, the quality of the install, the duct system & airflow.

Trenton, NJ, is near the middle of the state.
Summer design is 88-F dry bulb 74-F wet bulb or 52% relative humidity.

A room by room heatload calc showing the (HTMs) "Heat Transfer Multipliers" is very important toward showing the retro options toward reducing the required BTUH equipment sizing.

I'd do the numbers & then the retro-work to get it down to at least a 3.5-Ton A/C.

You're too concerned about equipment Brand, a top quality install, a sealed & properly sized ductwork system & on target airflow are what will lead to energy savings & long equipment service.

[sktn77a]

+1. Don't worry about brand. Even a Goodman (which gets no respect on this site) uses the same parts as Bryant, Rheem, etc. The installation is your first priority. Just make sure the installers are worth what they are charging you - ask lots of questions.