Help: 4 service calls, 2 different companies

[bingcrosbyb]

Well, lets go to the beginning. 1960's style ranch house. Single level with attic and basement. About 1500 sq feet. Poor insulation. 5 year old electric heat/cooling system (everrest) installed before we arrived. Hottest summer since we moved here. I live in the deep south and the outside temperature had been between 97F - 103F each day for the past week with 50-80% humidity. Starting last thursday, I noticed that the unit didn't appear to be keeping up with the setpoint. I had the setpoint on the thermostat at 74 and the temperature in the house was 79. Not a big problem I thought. Maybe some air escaped when I had the door propped open earlier in the day. Well, friday rolls around and I come home from work and the temperature is up to 88F in the house. I notice that I can't get the outside condenser to come on at all. The inside blower runs fine. I make service call #1 with company #1. He comes out and changes out the capacitor in the condenser and also gives it a thorough cleaning with a pink solution. We turn it on and there seems to be cold air coming out of the supply vents. He says we are good to go and leaves. The house cools to about 72 (setpoint), but I do notice that it only cools about 1F an hour. The next day, with the compressor/blower running, the temp shoots up to 86F once again! I make service call #2 with company #1. He comes out on a callback and takes a look at the evaporator coil. He says that the coil is a block of ice and a little dirty and that cleaning the outside condenser may have created "such a pressure differential that it froze the dirty coil". He cleans it with a brush until it looks brand new and he also gives the freon a check. Freon is at the right level he said. About 6 days pass by with zero problems from the unit. We leave it set at 78F during the day at 73F at night each day and it works. Then last night I get a call from my wife that the temperature in the house in 87F and that there is "water under the air handler" and the blower isn't running but the outside unit is running. I think, wtf? I tell her to switch it to Fan - On and Cool - Off.

I just say screw the other company and call a new one with service call #3, company #2. I arrive at the house before the repairman. Sure enough there is just a ton of water under the air handler unit. Being somewhat of a savvy guy with electronics, I take the cover off the blower. Capacitor looked fine (no bulging) and pressing the door switch pulled in the contacts on the relay, but no motor starting. I do notice the board looks burnt however. Well, service guy arrives and sure enough after doing a few checks and also bypassing the board (motor runs) determines the board is fried. He checks the drain line and thinks the angle is fine and the drain is clear. He thinks that the board on the blower motor board failed causing the unit outside to keep running until the evaporator coil froze up again and eventually turned to water (hence floor) after the unit outside was turned off. Great, I think. Maybe it's fixed. Wrong. Well, this afternoon I had the thermostat set to 74F and noticed the temperature was 78F. I go to the basement area and sure enough there is just a pool of water under the air handler with it running! I notice that water is just dripping down the side of the unit and I see some getting into the blower compartment. So, I just turn it all off fearing once again that the board will get wet.

So I make service call #4 to company #2. They come out and say that the condensate line is plugged and the emergency pan was just overflowing everywhere. He also recommended getting a dehumidifier for the basement. Last night, I could only get it down to 71F inside with outside low temperature of 81F (73 low dewpoint, 77% low humidity) and it's basically been running 36 hours straight. My wife would like to see it at 64F.

My gut is telling me a leaky return vent somewhere under the house in our crawlspace. Or maybe our machine isn't up to the challenge and it's just time to scrap the unit. How can there be so many problems with an HVAC unit that's had a yearly tune up? Any ideas on what could be the underlying problem? Help.

Sincerely,

Hot In The South

:anyone:

[crego97]

64 Degrees, WOW..
Thats Cold

[chuckcrj]

64°??? Probably not gonna happen even if everything with your system was perfect.

System was probably sized to give you 75° on a design day.

Sounds like a neglected system.

[Maikerum]

I am not an HVAC guy, so I won't try to diagnose your equipment issues, but I will say a 1 degree drop per hour on a hot day is pretty good.

If you want more comfort and you know your insulation is poor, the best investment you can make is more insulation, and if you have leaky ducts, that would be the next thing on the list.

Then when you get your A/C fixed, it will be able to keep your house cooler, but trying to get down to 70 on a 100 degree day is more than most systems ought to be asked to do--you are getting away from A/C and into refrigeration.

[Stamas]

Needed some maintenance to prevent the problem along with some realistic expectations of what it can do, what it can't do and what it shouldn't do. Cleaning the evap may have caused dirt to accumulate in drain trap and backed up water. Proper safety switch in a drain line can help prevent that.
I think the pink stuff may be the corrosive kind of cleaner. Cleaning that coil would do the opposite of what he (#1) said.
You say door switch and air handler, do you have a heat pump or a furnace/AC?

[bingcrosbyb]

64 Degrees, WOW..
Thats Cold

Second HVAC guy said he regularly gets his unit down to 63F at night. He said it's an icebox and he loves it.



64°??? Probably not gonna happen even if everything with your system was perfect.

System was probably sized to give you 75° on a design day.

Sounds like a neglected system.

I think 75 is good during the heat of the day on the hottest day, but shouldn't I be able to reach mid 60s during the night pretty easily?



I am not an HVAC guy, so I won't try to diagnose your equipment issues, but I will say a 1 degree drop per hour on a hot day is pretty good.

If you want more comfort and you know your insulation is poor, the best investment you can make is more insulation, and if you have leaky ducts, that would be the next thing on the list.

Then when you get your A/C fixed, it will be able to keep your house cooler, but trying to get down to 70 on a 100 degree day is more than most systems ought to be asked to do--you are getting away from A/C and into refrigeration.

It also doesn't help that we just had our hottest july on record. All we have is about 4-5" of cheap blown insulation the attic. I think investing in R-30 batt type insulation would help greatly. I'm very cautious about using powered attic fans.

[Stamas]

[QUOTE=bingcrosbyb;7396212]Second HVAC guy said he regularly gets his unit down to 63F at night. He said it's an icebox and he loves it.

Do you really want to follow his advice? If so why are you here?


I think 75 is good during the heat of the day on the hottest day, but shouldn't I be able to reach mid 60s during the night pretty easily?

Not necessarily and going that low with ductwork that you say may have problems will cause other problems, some like you've had already.


It also doesn't help that we just had our hottest july on record. All we have is about 4-5" of cheap blown insulation the attic. I think investing in R-30 batt type insulation would help greatly. I'm very cautious about using powered attic fans.

Good idea on the insulation and being cautious. Systems that are designed properly have a set of parameters they are designed with in, including ductwork, insulation, inside and outside temps.
I think you may be looking for tech #3 soon.

[coolmen]

It seem that you are running the system to low of a temp. The airhandler will get extremly cold, causing ice build up,moisture on control board causing a burn out,causing water over flow,causenglow airflow . Do you have high returns?
to run a airconditionerbelow 70* in not healthy and a waiste of energy and not to mention a waiste of service calls.
Oh yah,,Do a load calculation

[Pressureman]

Did anyone check the filter?

[jegs]

Did anyone check the filter?

Lol. Whoops!

[Gunny62]

I would suggest that you do not set or run your a/c any colder than 72°. If you try and push it much lower than that your evaporator (indoor coil) surface temperature will be below 32°. As you probably know as the moist air passes over the evaporator, moisture is removed and is drained out through the condensate line. If your evaporator coil is below freezing any moisture that is removed from the air will freeze to the coil eventually building up to a block of ice if the system does not shut down long enough to allow it to defrost.

[EugeneTheJeep]

64 Degrees, WOW..
Thats Cold

That is like 10 deg below normal, hope you enjoy frozen coils and more burned out boards.

[skippedover]

Well, lets go to the beginning. 1960's style ranch house. Single level with attic and basement. About 1500 sq feet. Poor insulation. 5 year old electric heat/cooling system (everrest) installed before we arrived. Hottest summer since we moved here.

I'm not dumb when it comes to math but I'll be darned if I can work out the age of the equipment from that word problem. 5-years old plus some summers = ??????


I make service call #1 with company #1. So you don't have a relationship with a company and have never had it serviced in all the summers (how many?) you've lived there.
He comes out and changes out the capacitor in the condenser and also gives it a thorough cleaning with a pink solution. We turn it on and there seems to be cold air coming out of the supply vents. He says we are good to go and leaves.
Maintenance problem #1 solved. Dirty outdoor coil.


The house cools to about 72 (setpoint), but I do notice that it only cools about 1F an hour. Verification that the tech did something right. The unit is working. You've got about 8 hours of 100-degree air stored up in the house when the unit starts and it cools at 1-degree/hr. That's okay in my book.


The next day, with the compressor/blower running, the temp shoots up to 86F once again! I make service call #2 with company #1. He comes out on a callback and takes a look at the evaporator coil. He says that the coil is a block of ice and a little dirty and that cleaning the outside condenser may have created "such a pressure differential that it froze the dirty coil". He cleans it with a brush until it looks brand new and he also gives the freon a check. Freon is at the right level he said. About 6 days pass by with zero problems from the unit. We leave it set at 78F during the day at 73F at night each day and it works.

Okay, so it worked for a week. He cleaned the indoor coil. Maintenance problem #2 solved. Or maybe you have an intermittent problem. Keep your eye on the ball now.


Then last night I get a call from my wife that the temperature in the house in 87F and that there is "water under the air handler" and the blower isn't running but the outside unit is running. I think, wtf? I tell her to switch it to Fan - On and Cool - Off. See any similarity to the previous call with the 'block of ice'?


I just say screw the other company and call a new one with service call #3, company #2. Okay, a repeat problem and you dn't want to get the call free as a callback so you start the process all over again with a new company. Hmmm. Maybe that's the company that's been doing your annual maintenance work?


I arrive at the house before the repairman. Sure enough there is just a ton of water under the air handler unit. Being somewhat of a savvy guy with electronics, I take the cover off the blower. Capacitor looked fine (no bulging) and pressing the door switch pulled in the contacts on the relay, but no motor starting. Now where getting somewhere. Too bad you hadn't called #1 company back. They might have saved you some money at this point. You needed the maintenance too but chances are company #2 charged you a trip fee you could have saved. Too bad you gave up to the "idiots" so quickly.


Hot In The South

:anyone:[/quote]

This goes on and on but with no maintenance an intermittent problem, I'm not surprised your having issues. I hope you've learned a lesson through all of this. You purchased a house with a 5-years old system, likely they did little or no maintenance, followed by years of neglect by you. For all I know the system is 35-years old but I'm not good at math. Give the guys a break. You've had at least 3 basic maintenance issues by your own description. One resulted possibly in a burned board. Get the message? :deadhorse: