Question about the Crusades, Robo maybe?

[Don Sleeth]

I have a 12 year old daughter who is a great reader. If I don't buy her books, she reads the same ones over and over. So, I go to the bookstores and pick out the books. Her reading level is far beyond her maturity level. I try to read the start of the books to try and get ones that she would enjoy and for which the subject matter is appropriate for her maturity level, which is not advanced.

A book that I picked up for her yesterday, called "Angeline" by Karleen Bradford is about a young girl who ends up as a slave in Egypt in about the year 1212.

The Prologue for the book sets the stage of the Crusades. It says that in 1096 Pope Urban II called for a holy war to recover Jerusalem from the Muslims resulting in a series of crusades over the next 200 years.

The first one was called "The People's Crusade" in 1096 and ended in disaster. Then a true army succeeded in 1099 and Christians ruled for 88 years. In 1187, the Muslim leader Saladin retook the city. After that there was about 3 more crusades, mostly unsuccessful.

Then in 1212 a shepherd boy, Stephen of Cloyes, had a vision to raise an army of children to march on Jerusalem. He was able to assemble 20,000 children to join. The children that actually survived long enough to leave Marseilles for Jerusalem were tricked and sold into slavery in Egypt.

Whew, finally my question:

Is this last crusade of an army of children actually true? I know the first ones are, I think, historical facts, but what about this last one of children, is it known, or is it pure fiction?

don

[hi-tork]

Hey Don, I don't know the answer to your question, but does she not have an interest in books like, "Nancy Drew", or "Trixie Belden"? Those were great adventure/suspense books all in a series that kids loved to read, I personally loved "The Hardy Boys"...
And it wasn't that it was SO EASY reading that it was boring, not at all, just fun reading that you could get hooked on... (my .02, if you want change back, let me know, LOL) ;)

[Don Sleeth]

I think she has read all the Nancy Drew ones, but I forgot about "Trixie Belden". I wonder if they are still around, I'll check it out, thanks!

don

[hi-tork]

Hey Don, I just asked my wife what she read, and she said that she enjoyed the "Anne of Green Gables" series as well as the "Laura Ingall's Wilder" books to give you a few more...I seem to remember another series called the "Bobsy Twins" too.
Trixie Belden Series is available too, I know my sister is trying to get a new set for her daughters, close to a hundred books or so I think...

[spotts]

"The River Why?"

[Don Sleeth]

Originally posted by spotts
"The River Why?"

No Jack, she's only 12 ya know! LOL. Actually, I have not read it either, I started it but didn't really get into it. Too many distractions, not in the right mood, I don't know why. The fact that it made such an impression on you and your thoughtfulness in sending me a copy makes me want to read it though. I think I will feel guilty until I do! I am supposed to have more time now, I'll give it another try this winter.

Thanks! :)

don

[RoBoTeq]

Don, unfortunately the so called "Children's Crusades" did happen.

This is one of the darker spots of Christianity that keeps me from adhering to organized religion. According to one source book I have;


Seized with religous fervor born of the Crusades, thousands of children in Germany and France set out to conquer the Holy Land and retrieve the Sepulcher of Christ. Two seperate groups of children attempted to mount Crusades, but like the true Crusaders the childredn tried to emulate, both expeditions ended in disaster.

In Germany during the spring of 1212, a ten-year-old boy named Nicholas began urging the children of his native Cologne to join him in a Crusade to Jerusalem. His enthusiam fot the casue was contagious. Soon thousands of children between the ages of six and eighteen had desregarded their parents' pleas and left home to follow Nicholas to Italy, where they intended to board a ship bound for the Holy Land. Their numbers grew steadily as children from every town they passed through became caught up in the quest.

Nicholas's band eventually numbered twenty thousand, though many of the smaller and weaker children were unable to make it over the Alps, collapsing along the way from exhaustion and starvation. Most reached Lombardy, where they split up into several groups, though it is not known whether this was by design or by accident. The largest group of more than seven thousand arrived in Genoa on August 25, but these children were forced to abandon their Crusade because no ships were willing to take them to the Holy Land. Several of the children made their way to Rome to ask Pope Innocent III to release them from their crusading oaths, but the rest of the group simply scattered across Italy, exhausted, humiliated, and penniless.

While Nicholas was leading his band of crusaders over the Alps, a similar movement was taking place in France. In June of that year, a French shepard boy named Stephen claimed to have seen a vision of Christ, who handed him a letter to deliver to the king of France. Stephen set off on his errand with zeal, and soon tens of thousands of entusiastic children joined him. It was not long before the horde of children decided to carry Christ's mission to the Holy Land. Stephen's band of thirty thousand eventually reached Marseilles, where it is popularly believed that two disreputable merchants, Hugh Ferreus and William Porcus, offered them free passage to Syria.

One medieval source reports that the children set off for the Holy Land in seven ships, but that a storm off the Isle of Saint Peter dashed two of the ships against rocks, where they sank with all aboard. The remaining five ships are said to have docked at Bougie, in modern Algeria, and Alexandria, Egypt, where the merchants sold the children into slavery. The caliph-al-Nasir supposedly bought four hundred of them himself, and other children went to Saracen princes or slave merchants. It was reported that eighteen of the children were martyred by Saracens who attempted to make them renounce Christianity. As long as eighteen years after the disastrous crusade, Mascemuch of Alexandria supposedly still owned seven hundred of the crusaders, who were by that time full grown men.

This story comes from a book titled "The Pessimist's buide to History", by Stuart Flexner and Doris Flexner. I have personally checke out many of the claims of historical atrocities noted in this interesting book and have not been able to find fault with the content of it's claims.

[Don Sleeth]

Yes, that info on the French group is exactly what this book is based on. Wow! :(

Did you type all that Robin or is that a copy and paste? I knew you would know the answer! :D Thank you for your time and info. That sounds like quite a book, too bad they hadn't written a guide instead of a buide, I might have noticed it sooner :eek: LOL

don

[RoBoTeq]

Some links on this heartwrenching subject;

http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/children.html

http://www.unsolvedmysteries.com/usm91939.html

http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture25b.html

Don, for current events that relate to these crusades have you daughter check out children in war today. From the IRA to Muslim terrorists children are dying and killing for what they are being taught by hateful adults.

[highlimit]

Yes sir,I have looked this up.
This is really true? I wasnt there but I can tell you this from a very old book: during the interval between the 4th and 5th Crusade the epidemical fanaticism...seized upon the children,resulting in "The Childrens Crusade"...
a french peasnt lad Stephen thought Jesus commanded him to
lead the children to rescue the Holy Sepulchre... they flocked in vast crowds to the rendezvous places...nothing could restrain them...
50,000 German children crossed the Alps and down the Italian shore looking for a miraculous pathway through the Mediterranean.3000 sailed from Brundusium never to be heard of again...
30,000 French children set out for Marseilles.Those that set out from that port were betrayed,and sold as slaves in Alexandria and Mohammadan markets...
this spectacle affords an exibition of ignorance and superstition...of what was thought to be the will of God...
marked the culmination and decline of the crusading...


Said the Pope of these young crusaders,"These children reproach us with having fallen asleep,whilst they wre flying to the assistance of the Holy Land."


(I hope I have not revealed the ending!)

What is the ARP section?


[Edited by highlimit on 09-19-2004 at 06:53 PM]

[RoBoTeq]

So Don; did you post this thread in "general" instead of the "ARP" section because you are going be a rebel like some others on this forum :D ?

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by Don Sleeth
Yes, that info on the French group is exactly what this book is based on. Wow! :(

Did you type all that Robin or is that a copy and paste? I knew you would know the answer! :D Thank you for your time and info. That sounds like quite a book, too bad they hadn't written a guide instead of a buide, I might have noticed it sooner :eek: LOL

don


I typed it Don. I knew I had information on it and went ahead and typed it ver batem from the book before it occured to me to look up links. Oh well, live and learn, eh?

[bja105]

Robo's source agrees with everything I've read, too.

Some more tidbits about the crusades-

Many of the crusading armies never made it to fight muslims, Some stayed in europe and killed jews, or went Byzantium (now Istanbul) and looted their fellow Christians.

The Holy land was similar to the American frontier, in that it was somewhere to send trouble makers, or extra sons who wouldn't get inheritances. Kings would teach their eldest to rule, and send their other sons to win a kingdom in Palestine.

A more succesful crusade won sicily from the arabs.

Around the same time (1100?), Christians started an offensive against the muslim Moors in Spain, finaly pushing them out of Europe in 1492 (freeing up the money to finance Columbus.)

Crusaders may have brouhgt the Bubonic plague to Europe, killing almost half of the population.

[bja105]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
So Don; did you post this thread in "general" instead of the "ARP" section because you are going be a rebel like some others on this forum :D ?

He posted here because he wanted an answer, not an argument. Those guys are tough.

[Don Sleeth]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq
So Don; did you post this thread in "general" instead of the "ARP" section because you are going be a rebel like some others on this forum :D ?

I thought about both sections, but decided I could probably get my answer in General, and then later, when the religious wars resurfaced, it could be moved to ARP :D

You type pretty fast there Robo, a man of many talents, I am impressed. :)

Your sig, about scent, always reminds me of a great book I read last winter, "The Emperor of Scent". I'll bet you don't know how the sense of smell actually works. We know about sound and light, but how does smell work? Read the book :D
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375507973/qid=1095635470/sr=ka-1/ref=pd_ka_1/104-6283196-1340709

Actually, I take that back about the bet, no bet, anyone that can rattle off that many facts out of their head may know that too! :eek:

don

[Don Sleeth]

Originally posted by highlimit
What is the ARP section?



The ARP section is a section of this forum where its members can calmly discuss and debate topics pertaining to America, Religion and Politics. It is always refreshing to see how us HVAC guys can come to together with members with opposing views, both religious and political, and debate the finer points without resorting to name calling or other means of demeaning each other. Perfect examples of this can be seen in posts made by Rob10, James3528 and johnl45 as well as all other frequenters of this section. cough. cough, puke :eek:

don

[spotts]

Originally posted by Don Sleeth

Originally posted by spotts
"The River Why?"

No Jack, she's only 12 ya know! LOL. Actually, I have not read it either, I started it but didn't really get into it. Too many distractions, not in the right mood, I don't know why. The fact that it made such an impression on you and your thoughtfulness in sending me a copy makes me want to read it though. I think I will feel guilty until I do! I am supposed to have more time now, I'll give it another try this winter.

Thanks! :)

don



Like I said. The first chapter is one of those "I have to tell you this story first to tell you the rest of the story". The beginning is very lame, but by chapter 2 your into it and it's a fantastic journey that anybody that lives near water can appreciate.

[RoBoTeq]

Well Don, you would have won that bet....this year :D

Now you have me intrigued about something that greatly affects me anyway. I did know that our sense of smell shuts down when we sleep which is why we don't smell smoke before a fire breaks out and we can stand to pull the covers over our heads even after having eaten beans and asparagus.

I know that those of us who are chemical sensitive have very adverse reactions to many chemical scents that are sucked into our heads via the nose, but do not really know why.

Now I have something to do! Thanks a lot Don :D

[Edmund Forsthe]

hey robo if i farth or flagelate when the old lady is sleeping she wakes up and give me the evil eye seems like she can smell even in her sleep.

[RoBoTeq]

Originally posted by Edmund Forsthe
hey robo if i farth or flagelate when the old lady is sleeping she wakes up and give me the evil eye seems like she can smell even in her sleep.

It's probably the immense noise or the fact that the bed shakes that wakes her up :D Also, if you would stop screaming "weeeeee dogggggyy" when you do those things she might stay asleep.

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by Don Sleeth

Originally posted by highlimit
What is the ARP section?



The ARP section is a section of this forum where its members can calmly discuss and debate topics pertaining to America, Religion and Politics. It is always refreshing to see how us HVAC guys can come to together with members with opposing views, both religious and political, and debate the finer points without resorting to name calling or other means of demeaning each other. Perfect examples of this can be seen in posts made by Rob10, James3528 and johnl45 as well as all other frequenters of this section. cough. cough, puke :eek:

don



:rolleyes:

Waht comraderie exists 'tween those pages.:D

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by RoBoTeq

Originally posted by Edmund Forsthe
hey robo if i farth or flagelate when the old lady is sleeping she wakes up and give me the evil eye seems like she can smell even in her sleep.

It's probably the immense noise or the fact that the bed shakes that wakes her up :D Also, if you would stop screaming "weeeeee dogggggyy" when you do those things she might stay asleep.

ROTFLMAOPMP.
Alright. I just spit coffee all over my screen. That'll be enough.:D

[hvac45]

I actually enjoyed reading about this subject, being somewhat of a history nut, I had not heard of this, thanks for sharing Robo, as to smell, I think what wakes her up is not being able to breathe when he holds the covers over her head before he farts.