Mating new heat pump to existing handler

[bellbrass]

Hello all, 1st-time post.

My heat pump is 16 years old, and I am looking to replace it. It has R-22 refrigerant (obviously). I had an American Standard air handler installed new in 2004. It is a convertible R22 / R410A unit.
I have had three contractors visit my home for estimates. Two had American Standard as their flagship, one had Amana. One Am. Std. contractor said it would be tricky to install a new heat pump and mate it to the air handler; it would require cleaning out the lines and converting the air handler over to the new refrigerant, and he said he wouldn't do it. He said he would be glad to give me a quote for a complete new system.

The other Am. Std. contractor said that it was absolutely doable, and you just had to know what you were doing to convert the air handler (he said it was mainly about getting the correct expansion valve and doing a good job of getting rid of all the old R-22). He quoted me for a 13-SEER heat pump (Am. Std.)

The Amana guy said the same thing about the conversion; said it could be done with no problems. He gave me a quote for a new Amana 14 SEER.

1) Any comments on this type of conversion job from experienced, licensed contractors?

2) I've researched Amana and American Standard on the internet, and I've seen a lot of bad stuff about Amana heat pumps going bad within 1-2 years. These customers say that without the 10 year warranty, they would have no functioning AC or heat. Also, the consensus seems to be that you need the Amana warranty because they have a lot of problems. American Standard has fewer reports, but people complain about this brand too. However, my current heat pump is an American Standard 10-SEER, and I've had one repair in 6 years on it.



Thanks in advance!

[RLEE2344]

i understand the reasons behind wanting to only replace what you "have" to. The economic status of this country is terrible. On the other hand. If this was mine, i wouldnt even consider this. By changing only the outdoor unit and attempting to flush the rest of the system will still leave you with a good chance of contamination. Also it may be difficult finding a evap coil that will match the new 13 seer outdoor. You have a lot of variables in this equation that if one is incorrect it will affect the entire system. In my opinion, replace it all and dont worry about it. This way you will know you wont have any mis-match or contamination issues. :deadhorse:

[bellbrass]

Thanks for your input. At this time, I cannot afford an entire new inside / outside unit. Plus, all three contractors told me it would be a shame to tear out the 6 year-old air handler.

[Joker]

If it were straight cool I would have no problem just doing outside but since its a heat pump the inside unit because the heat exchanger during the winter. Unless the inside is rated for 13 seer heat pump you could be setting yourself up for some problems.

I see people trying to mate a Trane heat pump outside for show and install a Goodman(Amana) inside for cost. Then wonder why it never works worth a damn.

But it can be done. At least they will be the same make.

[bellbrass]

If it were straight cool I would have no problem just doing outside but since its a heat pump the inside unit because the heat exchanger during the winter. Unless the inside is rated for 13 seer heat pump you could be setting yourself up for some problems.

I see people trying to mate a Trane heat pump outside for show and install a Goodman(Amana) inside for cost. Then wonder why it never works worth a damn.

But it can be done. At least they will be the same make.

Would you recommend using an American Standard for the new heat pump? The Amana comes with a superior warranty, but costs much more. I'm not sure what the inside air handler is rated for, but it was brand new in 2004, if that helps, plus it is a convertible unit. Thanks.

[northernfitter]

I wouldnt recommend it. Get a whole system and get a good warranty on all of it is my normal recommendation. That being said it can be done and if done right should work properly. I would lean more in favour of the am standard

[Joker]

Would you recommend using an American Standard for the new heat pump? The Amana comes with a superior warranty, but costs much more. I'm not sure what the inside air handler is rated for, but it was brand new in 2004, if that helps, plus it is a convertible unit. Thanks.

Superior warranty? American standard comes with 10 year parts standard. You can buy an extended warranty to get 10 year parts and labor.

It would be much better to do both but not necessary. Just make sure they check out the heating part come winter to make sure it mates well. Summer will not matter except you will lose maybe 1/2 seer rating.

[bellbrass]

I wouldnt recommend it. Get a whole system and get a good warranty on all of it is my normal recommendation. That being said it can be done and if done right should work properly. I would lean more in favour of the am standard

Thanks. I would love to get a whole system, but can't afford it. That being said, if I am setting myself up for a world of trouble, that's not good either.

[bellbrass]

Superior warranty? American standard comes with 10 year parts standard. You can buy an extended warranty to get 10 year parts and labor.

It would be much better to do both but not necessary. Just make sure they check out the heating part come winter to make sure it mates well. Summer will not matter except you will lose maybe 1/2 seer rating.

Thanks again for the input. The quote from the Am. Std. contractor is 5 years parts, 1 year labor, 10 yrs. compressor. The Amana is 10 yrs. parts & labor; lifetime (as homeowner) warranty on the compressor.

I wasn't aware that I would lose SEER performance, but that makes sense.

[northernfitter]

Thanks. I would love to get a whole system, but can't afford it. That being said, if I am setting myself up for a world of trouble, that's not good either.


If you have my luck then you know something catastrophic will happen with the old air handler if you keep it... I have a pessimistic view on luck and have always had the pay now or pay later mentality when it comes to repairs to anything mechanical.

[Joker]

Thanks again for the input. The quote from the Am. Std. contractor is 5 years parts, 1 year labor, 10 yrs. compressor. The Amana is 10 yrs. parts & labor; lifetime (as homeowner) warranty on the compressor.

I wasn't aware that I would lose SEER performance, but that makes sense.

That should be a 10 parts unless he is quoting you builder grade unit.

[bellbrass]

If you have my luck then you know something catastrophic will happen with the old air handler if you keep it... I have a pessimistic view on luck and have always had the pay now or pay later mentality when it comes to repairs to anything mechanical.

I know what you mean....:)

[bellbrass]

That should be a 10 parts unless he is quoting you builder grade unit.

I just looked at the quote, and it's 5 years parts. I'll ask him about it.

[Joker]

I just looked at the quote, and it's 5 years parts. I'll ask him about it.

Ask him because this is what the manufacture says. (http://www.americanstandardair.com/HomeOwner/Products/AirConditioners/)

10 year parts.

I sell Trane and we do have a builder grade that only gets a 5 year parts.

You can get a 10 year parts and labor extend warranty for price.

[bellbrass]

Ask him because this is what the manufacture says. (http://www.americanstandardair.com/HomeOwner/Products/AirConditioners/)

10 year parts.

I sell Trane and we do have a builder grade that only gets a 5 year parts.

You can get a 10 year parts and labor extend warranty for price.

I will ask him about it today. I looked and saw the 10 year warranty for the Heritage Series; the brochure he gave me does not have Heritage anywhere on it.

[bellbrass]

I tried to reach the American Standard contractor to no avail, so I am leaning towards the Amana contractor. I spoke to an installer (NATE-certified), and he told me that converting from R-22 to R-410A is not that tricky if you know what you are doing; he told me of 3 such installs in the past year, all with no issues (so far). He told me that the key was cleaning the lines out properly and making sure the new expansion valve was installed properly in the air handler. Any comments?

[Airmechanical]

i am pretty sure you need an ARI number in order to qualify for any extended warranty

and the combination you plan on doing, won't have an ARI number



.

[bellbrass]

i am pretty sure you need an ARI number in order to qualify for any extended warranty

and the combination you plan on doing, won't have an ARI number



.

Please explain the ARI number....not familiar with that.

[Advanced Response]

You might want to check the lifetime compressor warranty clause on the amana.. "matched systems"

It is possible that your current airhandler acceptable match with a trane or american standard condenser with only a change of txv valve..

Do not mix brands with heat pump systems!!! Period!!!

Goodluck
J

[bellbrass]

You might want to check the lifetime compressor warranty clause on the amana.. "matched systems"

It is possible that your current airhandler acceptable match with a trane or american standard condenser with only a change of txv valve..

Do not mix brands with heat pump systems!!! Period!!!

Goodluck
J

Thanks for your comments...so, you really think it's barking up the wrong tree to mix brands? I seem to have gotten a quote for a builder-grade American Std. heat pump, and can't get a call-back. Perhaps I should insist on an Am. Std, since my air handler is also Am. Std.?

[RLEE2344]

:toetap:sorry to be a smart ass but did you really think the amana installer would tell you he has installed 3 botched jobs? of course he will tell you they are trouble free and work great. HE WANTS THE JOB! i am a believer that if its not something i would do for my own house, im not doing it anywhere else either. By mis matching euipment AND changing refrigerants you are asking for a nightmare..If the system is contaminated you may not see it within the first yr or even the second yr but eventually it will destroy the compressor and potentially contaminate the system even further. i know its hard to swallow but you really need to bite the bullet and do it right n be done with it.

[bellbrass]

:toetap:sorry to be a smart ass but did you really think the amana installer would tell you he has installed 3 botched jobs? of course he will tell you they are trouble free and work great. HE WANTS THE JOB! i am a believer that if its not something i would do for my own house, im not doing it anywhere else either. By mis matching euipment AND changing refrigerants you are asking for a nightmare..If the system is contaminated you may not see it within the first yr or even the second yr but eventually it will destroy the compressor and potentially contaminate the system even further. i know its hard to swallow but you really need to bite the bullet and do it right n be done with it.

I see your point with staying with the same brand. The only thing is that the Amana warranty is 10 yrs. parts and labor, while the American Standard warranty is 1 or 2 years labor, with 10 years parts. The Amana quote is only $250 more for 8 years more on the labor. However, the pros here seem to be telling me to stick with American Standard.

[drewski11]

I see your point with staying with the same brand. The only thing is that the Amana warranty is 10 yrs. parts and labor, while the American Standard warranty is 1 or 2 years labor, with 10 years parts. The Amana quote is only $250 more for 8 years more on the labor. However, the pros here seem to be telling me to stick with American Standard.

i think they are saying check to see if you'll get the full Amana warranty if you mix with older used equipment that is not Amana. your dealer should be able to tell you or maybe contact Amana directly. you don't want to think you have a warranty and then be denied because of some loophole if there is an issue.

[Joker]

I tried to reach the American Standard contractor to no avail, so I am leaning towards the Amana contractor. I spoke to an installer (NATE-certified), and he told me that converting from R-22 to R-410A is not that tricky if you know what you are doing; he told me of 3 such installs in the past year, all with no issues (so far). He told me that the key was cleaning the lines out properly and making sure the new expansion valve was installed properly in the air handler. Any comments?

If you are leaning towards Amman then go Goodman. Same thing but cheaper. You might be able to do the whole thing then. But always, im always get a good installer because you will have to live with your decision for decades and I have seen people that sold their house because of such bad decision!

[bellbrass]

I talked to the American Standard contractor today, and I am leaning towards Am. Std. to have matched brands. He says there is no exclusion clause in the 10 yr. parts / 2 yr. labor warranty for matching to an existing Am. Std. air handler. However, the Amana warranty is very tempting....but I haven't investigated any warranty exclusion clauses.

Also - the Am. Std. guy says he cleans out the lines with liquid CO2, not just nitrogen - he says this does a better job of washing out the mineral oil from the lines for refrigerant conversion.

[wahoo]

I've sold Amana for years, and without any warranty problems, but that being said, I'd still recommend staying with the Am. Std. unit to match the indoor air handler. Just get a 13 SEER heat pump complete with new exp. valve, flush out the lines, install a bi-flow dryer, get the longest warranty available (from Am. Std, NOT a "warranty company!), and go with it. Mixing brands of air handlers and heat pumps can cause severe problems with freon "storage" during heating cycles (in my opinion and experience). Will work on AC, but not have enough coil capacity inside when switch to heating and kill the compressor. May not happen, but stick with Am. Std. to help prevent.

[bellbrass]

Thanks for your input. He didn't say anything about a bi-flow dryer; is this a standard part of the install?

[wahoo]

If you are "re-using" the existing lineset, after purging it for R-410a, then a bi-flow dryer should be added just to insure moisture stays out of the new system along with catching any debri that could have gotten loose during install. I'd insist that one be added to the liquid line regardless of whether or not the contractor included it.

[jegs]

There should be a bi-flow drier already in the system from the factory. If you are converting to R-410a this original drier MUST be changed as you will never get all the old oil out of it. Just adding a new drier and leaving the old one in the system can also cause a pressure problem that will have the tech tearing his hair out trying to resolve. The drier can be at the air handler or at the condensing unit so make sure he checks both. And make sure it is bidirectional since it's a heat pump. The metering device in the air handler will also need to be changed for R-410a.

[sktn77a]

If your major concern about the AS system is the 2 year labor warranty, just ask your installer for an extended warranty. Trane/AS may provide extended warranties and, if not, there's always Equigard.

[bellbrass]

Thanks for the tips - I will ask him about the bi-flow dryer, but I don't want to insult the guy.

I will look into an extended warranty - it might be the thing to do with this type of install.