View Full Version : York yg with a cat g3516 drive
08-01-2010, 02:12 AM
Any one have much experience with these? Havin loading issues with one. Engine appears to be maxed out and vanes wont open past 35%.
08-01-2010, 06:52 AM
Don't know your level of experience with that particular Chiller but I would recommend bringing somebody in that really understands it I myself have never had the pleasure.
08-01-2010, 10:02 AM
Don't know your level of experience with that particular Chiller but I would recommend bringing somebody in that really understands it......
I concur 100%. You've gone way past an internet service forum when you get into this type thing - unless the forum is about natural gas engine driven compressors.
08-01-2010, 10:22 AM
Wasnt expecting that reply. The guy that understands it more than me has already been there (my foreman). I don't have experience much with these, just have the two of em. I think I understand them fairly well. The problem is being a Johnson employee were spread so thin he doesn't have the time to be here as much as I would like. So here I am. The chiller portion checks out ok as far as I can tell. Makes cold water if u force the motor to do something. Flows and approach all check out. I just cant imagine something inside the chiller changing enough to put that much load on the motor and not blow up or show any signs(high pressure, heat). I'm supposed to be meeting up with a mech from cat so he can check out the motor. I'm thinking no maintenance has been done in ten years and the poor thing prob has valves leaking through and cylinder blowby. Thanks anyway for looking into it guys.
08-01-2010, 10:29 AM
These set ups operate pretty much like a normal electric setup with a drive in them. They start up and go to max rpm and then slowly open the vanes. Then after a while will slowly open vanes more and bring rpm down to try and save. My problem is it maxes the motor out on rpm and boost(manifold) pressure before we even get to half vanes. Which makes me think it's a motor prob and not a chiller prob.
08-01-2010, 02:26 PM
Have you spoken to your foreman about the problem and ask him what he thinks mabey he can direct you in some direction other course would be to contact the factory direct and explain it to them and see what there explaination would be mabey they could direct you in also some direction to come up with an answer.
08-01-2010, 03:05 PM
If your motor will go to max rpm, why would you think that you have a motor issue? Sounds more like a capacity control issue to me. jci has done the same thing to you that they've been doing everywhere else, and it's simply not fair to you. I had no idea that you are a jci employee, and believe me when I say that this is not aimed at you personally, but junkson didn't do right by many folks, myself included. They need to provide you with the help and support that you need so that you can get your issues resolved, or they need to find another line of work (even better, they can pay us to help fix it).
08-01-2010, 05:17 PM
The reason I think its a motor issue is that its maxed out on boost(manifold pressure) when the vanes are only at 38%. this motor has to have max boost from the turbos to keep up with the same load the other motor can handle at about have to 2/3 the manifold pressure. And the Jci stuff, what ya gonna do. I came in after the great togetherness so I don't really know the good ol days. I like it alot better here than where I came from so I'm doin what I can to tcob.
08-01-2010, 07:36 PM
let me run some things by you. The engine load is a function of rpm and manifold pressure. The york panel receives these as a millamps signal from loop isolating relays in the cat panel. I've had to calibrate these several times.They are located in the cat panel on the top of the right side. There is one for rpm one for manifold pressue and one for water jacket tempt. If you have already done this then disregard. And yes york tech support is no help.What does the chiller display for status and engine load?
08-01-2010, 08:32 PM
I actually had a problem with the other relay in the other machine. So I swapped it out of this machine before we got a new one. This machine ran with the vanes wide open at 1500 rpm and started to bring the water down, but was showing 20# on the cat gauge. Pretty sure the only reason it did that was because with tje relay gone it saw 0# so it loaded up thinking it wasn't anywhere near max load. The manifold pressure gauge on the engine reads the same as the York panel. The one I haven't looked at would be rpm. Does the York panel get the rpm signal from the cat panel or does it read it's own like it does for pressure? That might explain some of it if they were reading at the same place. The cat panel does say the same rpm as the York.
08-01-2010, 09:17 PM
A sweet lil' YG.....I is da' one what started up ALL the YG's in the Ga. area and have been waaaay' outside the country on others....
The unit that controls the "Engine-Load" is amount of boost pressure from the huge turbochargers.....15psi "Boost"(30psia) is equal to 100% engine load.
This signal is generated by a danfoss transducer on the engine opposite side of the control panel.
There also some hidden buttons on the keypad that has a wealth of information such as DAC,RM,RMS mach and other such thingies...
I have started about a dozen of these puppies up and love them.....
At the Pentagon we have a 3000hp. 3606cat on nat gas that we did some experimenting with...That is one huge bugger...
I think my e-mail addy' is with my profile and I would be more than happy to help you out on this sweet thing....
Didja' know that at lower condenser pressures this puppy has a COP of 1.65!!
1000 btu's in and 1650 out!!! This is certified and not arguable...
NO other chiller in the world even approaches that....
08-01-2010, 10:11 PM
Cool man glad ur here. I've fiund most of that stuff. I was playing with it the other day and did some tweeking on the power curve(after I found a KPa conversion chart). I set it to I think 35KPaA at 1500 rpm but the turd cat could only pull 40% vanes on that. I'm thinking there is a mech issue with the engine and its just not making the hp. I was talking to a heavy diesel tech the other day and he asked me about valvetrain adjustments and other maintenance on the engine. He was thinking with the very probable lack of maintenance that it was prob just gettin wore out.
08-01-2010, 11:39 PM
Johnson deserves the mess they made out of York.
does it have hot gas by-pass? if so check that piece of orange actuator hanging on there, see if it opens and closes???? this may be your problem
08-02-2010, 07:18 PM
If you are getting 1500 rpm(Which is max.rpm for the YG3500 series)you do "Not" have a horsepower issue.....The vanes are "solely" controlled by the % engine load. By pushing the hidden button at the far right of the control panel, below the last labeled key, a direct reading of % load can be read without having to scroll thru the whole accrued load @ the different % loads.
When you start overloading the engine, most likely at that point you will get a EIS(Electronic-Ignition-System) warning light on the Cat panel followed immediately by a 5deg retard on the Ignition system. Two microphones located on both sides of the Cat about the middle, sense detonation...as the timing retards from the 35deg advance setting in 5 deg increments, then...considerable HP is lost and the Cat starts to bog down in rpm....That is the biggest stortcoming on this creature....as the York panel does not see any problem...it now asks for more vanes....More vanes=more hp demand....engines bogs down even more...more ping....or detonation....more timing retard ..Less available hp.....The York panel asks for more vanes....Then finally..BANG!!! Clutch disengages and a Emergency stop is commanded by the Cat panel as the detonation reaches critical or destructive conditions....
Should you have 30psia boost signal then you are producing about 1500hp on a 3516 from the Cat and producing Full tonnage regardless of vane position...I doubt that you are truly getting the 30psia or 15psig boost pressure in the first place.....It is very easy to connect a test gage in parallel with the Danfoss transducer and monitor the boost signal.The Danfoss transducer on the left is the boost signal while the one on the right is the Cat oil pressure for the York panel...All the signals from the Cat are generated by thermistors, pick-ups and transducers that "Solely" go the the York panel...The York panel displays "Nothing" but signals from York sensors....We don't trust that Cat crap...
08-02-2010, 08:32 PM
The engine has it's own mechanical boost gauge that reads right along with the York panel. When I bump up the power curve or unplug the isolation relay the mechanical gauge has read as high as 22psi. That's the only time I can get it to pull the water temp down. Thats why knows thinking it was a little weak. It'll pull themload just has to have more boost to do it. I can plumb another gauge into the line our gauge reads from pretty easily. I think the other machine already has one on it. Couldnt it be feasible that that this motor is weak and just needs more boost to do the job? I'm a car guy and always reading about turbos and superchargers. Just read an article about adding a little more compression and keeping the same supercharger output and increasing hp. I would think it would work the same in the opposite direction. I know turbos work a little different as u need the exhaust gas for heat expansion to spin the impeller. That's where I get fuzzy as to what issues u have if there are problems with hard parts. And I could also be talking out my ass. Sounds like u know ALOT more about it than I do, so think I should throw another gauge on it and see what happens? I guess im just having a problem with two gauges reading wrong and the same. Stranger things have happened though.
08-02-2010, 09:19 PM
Any one have much experience with these? Havin loading issues with one. Engine appears to be maxed out and vanes wont open past 35%.
If there were not any filters installed on gas line, it might be as simple as some welding slag in your regulator not letting it open properly.
08-03-2010, 06:04 PM
I will repeat...
If your rpm is at 1500(max) you do not have a Cat problem....Your problem lies in the York panel....Since vane position is limited "Only" by "Engine Load %" as well as chill water temperature the vanes should open to Maximum Engine load programmed into the York panel..Unti such time as the Chill water temp approaches within 2° f of setpoint at which time the DAC(Digital-Analog Conversion) program starts going to "Active Speed Control" (a DAC of<1)and allows the 3 dimensional dynamic program of controlling vane position, engine speed as well as modifying the level control setpoint.
In the service mode, you have the option of controlling either the vane position or the engine speed....
Program to control the vane position and open them puppies up....Just don't open them too fast...The fuel control on the Cat ain't that quick responding to a rapid change in load...
You might have a bad vane motor or sticking vanes.....
But yo' problem ain't with the Cat....You be floggin' a dead horse there..
08-03-2010, 06:24 PM
08-03-2010, 06:53 PM
Vanes are locked at 45% and she dropped to 1400rpm. Boost is at 33.5 psia on York panel and 20psi on cat gauge.
08-03-2010, 10:11 PM
I ran the vanes up slowly and the boost hung at 20psi. The more vanes I gave it the lower the rpm went. Accidently got the vanes to 100% and the rpm went way down. 11-1200 I think. Put em back in auto and they slowly closed and the rpm came up. When the rpm got up to 1500 the vanes were at 30%. don't remember the boost at that point, but sounded like it dumped all the boost and shut down on safety. Had to restart everything. Thought it was an ignition safety. Got it running and watched it then had to leave.
08-04-2010, 08:14 PM
I hate to ask this late in the thread, but have you calculated the tonnage being produced by this puppy??? I believe it was rated @ 1800tr and if boost is as stated and RPM's are running 1500, I see no reason to think you are not producing tonnage, because according to all of the data from the Cat's heavy engine plant in Indiana, you are producing the 1500hp they claim that engine is putting out on Nat. Gas...and barring something strange in the ref. circuit, it should be making the 1800 tons as advertised....
I am assuming that you can calculate the tonnage from evaporator flow & delta-t. on this beast..
08-04-2010, 09:16 PM
Think I did that last week. Wrote it down somewhere. Think it was in the 8-900t range. Have to see if I still have it in the van.
what about some readings, cond. and evap. approach, and Discharge superheat,flows, could be overcharged, could have dirty or plugged cond. tubes,
I know you said readings are normal but let us see, have vanes been calibrated? delta P delta T refrigerant type?
08-12-2010, 10:17 PM
Haha, sorry man. Been busy. I logged this thing a few times and took down all the readings u asked for. Then gave my boss the log sheet and didn't get it back. He has been talking with a Cat service engineer since one of their headquarters is in town. Haven't heard anything back on that though. I do know that evap approach was only .5 degree. Cond approach was pretty close to that. 134a, tubes brushed every year. Vanes haven't been calibrated but I've manually opened them and closed them. I know doesn't mean anything. But I think they are ok. Been wrong before though.
Ok the approaches sound good, the most important one in your postion is your discharge superheat, not to insult you if you are already know how but this is the discharge temp - discharge saturation. please post these readings.
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