A new thought in the world....

[air of honesty]

I tried this once before, but withdrew under the weight of officious judgment that came my way. Being in much better mental and physical health now than then, I believe I'll try again...

If there were no written screeds, no bibles or torahs, no ayotollahs or preachers at the local church, nothing pre-approved by others, no previous catch-phrases or quotes, nothing previous to this moment except language itself, how would you describe your understanding of the basics of life and the drives that move us? Why do we do more than kill, eat , live? Is there more than "Me and MINE", or does anything that benefits mine over yours automatically justify itself?

Anyone quoting any writing prior to their own post, including another's post, should be ignored as being disrespectful to the intent of this thread and should not be responded to.

Think for yourself. Speak for yourself. Try it it's addictive...

[air of honesty]

Okay, let's jumpstart this...

I believe that there comes a point when what I want for myself and mine comes in conflict with what is best for 'all of us' in the long run.

Do I take from your widow and children and feed to my hungry family? Should we feed on your recent corpse? Does my ability to overcome your sons in your absence make that a justification for my sons' prosperity?

If might doesn't make right, what does, and why? Proximity, relation, borders, ethnicity,...?

What reason is there to rein in my basic drives in order that someone else might 'make it' in this world?

[Edited by air of honesty on 09-02-2004 at 12:49 AM]

[mikemich]

What the hell are you smoking?

[bootlen]

If there were no cars, trucks, motorcycles, airplanes, tractors, SUV's, or mo-peds, how many speeding tickets would I get in a 55 mph zone?

[mattm]

Hey! Who said that? It's the voices! Make'm stop!

If there was nothing like you mentioned I don't believe human life would have continued or we would be living like in the movie great "Mad Max"

[bootlen]

Should our kids walk to school or carry their lunch?

[kim]

Without law it would be like Mad Max. Some people would try to do right. They would likely be overpowered by people with no morals, who take what they want.

[air of honesty]

Not so easy to express your ideas or feelings without relying on other people's words, is it? The problem is choosing the words that mean what you intend, without triggering misunderstanding or illiciting an unintended emotional response. Phrases and expressions get repeated, then parrotted, then parodied until the emotions they conjure up have little to do with the ideas that spawned them. Just saying one can get whole crowds to nodding their heads and agreeing to do whatever it is the speaker wants them to do without any clear idea of what that entails. Politicians know this. They count on it. So do preachers.

Listen carefully to the people who try hard to communicate with you in their own words. Ask about their plans. Be open to a new way of thinking about our shared problems. There are good people with good plans of action out there on both sides. Be wary of those who beat the same old drums and chant the same old phrases. They most likely have the same old 'hidden agenda' to push.

In the meantime, when you hear an idea you agree or disagree with, try putting it in your own words, so you can think your own clear thoughts about it. Several species of animals can repeat what they have heard. Only Man has the ability to interpret for himself the Truth in what he hears.

[btexpress]

I think it has to do with the complexity of our brains. The ability to reason rather than just react. The culmination of our experiences leads us to what is right or wrong in all situations. I don't think you can take religion out of the equation. If you look around, you can't help but wonder who or what caused or created these things, and at that point the thought of a creator is the beginning of a religion.
I'm not even sure what your asking. LOL But, I wrote what I wrote. Now I have a headache.

[air of honesty]

Just tired of all the sabre rattling and sloganeering.

There's just too much at stake in the world at the moment to be running around behind ditto heads of any stripe. People need to think about what's being said, and look at what's being done and how.

Think about what you believe and why, or you'll never be able to explain it to your kids.

Just wanted to shake up the status quo...:)

[ozone drone]

[i]Originally posted by air of honesty

What reason is there to rein in my basic drives in order that someone else might 'make it' in this world?

[Edited by air of honesty on 09-02-2004 at 12:49 AM] [/B]

So that you can look in the eye that person shaving in your mirror every morning. About 10% of the population is sociopathic thus , have no conscience or concern for others.
About another 40% of the population is motivated to "do the right thing" in fear of being roasted in hell by their Creator, rather than any sense of altruism. About half the population, does the right thing , because they do have a conscience and choose to follow it.

[bootlen]

Which is further...to New York or by train?

[mattm]

I think the LSD's a kick'n in.

[bootlen]

Without a righteous Supreme Being, there can be no "right". All laws (of "nature") were set in place by Him. Had He not existed, neither would we. These facts make your questions moot and therefore folly.

Silliness, even when you speak it of philosophy, is still silliness. (Hopefully, C.S. Lewis will forgive me.)

[coolprod]

Originally posted by mattm
I think the LSD's a kick'n in.

LMAO....http://smilies.jeeptalk.org/contrib/Bizkit/sweat.gif

That's what I was thinkin!!

[air of honesty]

We all know intuitively what is inherently 'right' or 'wrong' in a social context. We have medical terminology for those who don't, and legal terminology for those who choose to act contrarily, as well as religious terminology to help the masses sort out the finer points of which is the greater good or evil in any moment. The conflicts arise when what seems good for one adversely impacts what seems good to another. Trying to settle these disputes by defining actions that are appropriate for all is the soul of government.

Ideas connected to emotions lead to actions. The words that politicians speak should explain just what actions are intended, not simply inflame the feelings that lead one to act. We're all 'for' this and 'against' that, but what are they going to DO about it? Get past the pep rally rhetoric and listen for the specific planned actions of the people who have spent time and money to stand the talking head up. Are these acts appropriate for all of us, or just the ones nodding at the moment?

[bootlen]

Depends on the "acts", doesn't it?

Specificity is needed for an appropriate answer.

[player89]

what is right and wrong in a social context? And if we do, where did that inherent knowledge originate/come from? Should it be allowable that the "have's" be subject to theft from the "have nots", just because equality has somehow been made subject to tolerance?

Are we all individuals melded into a society, or are we a society melded into individuals?

[ozone drone]

Originally posted by air of honesty

The conflicts arise when what seems good for one adversely impacts what seems good to another.



I think your trying to make some type of political point.
Let's take your thought above, make a small illustration of it and then you amplify that into what you're driving at.


Let's say you're unemployed with three hungry kids at home. You take your last $10.00 to the grocery store, buy a pound of ham and a loaf of bread. The clerk,who you know is a single mother with 3 kids of her own, scrapin by on $8.00/hr and she screws up and gives you change for a $100.00 bill. You know when she closes out her register, she will have to make up the shortage from her own wages.

Your little windfall would feed your family for a week. But by keepin the money, You'd impact the clerk's kids and they would have to go hungry.

A. What would you do?
B. How does this apply to government and politics?

[air of honesty]

A: I'd correct the change, as that's what I'd want done to me.

B: To the extent that this analogy applies, put yourself in the other person's place when you start saying there ought to be a law, and see if you believe justice is being called for.

For what its worth, it was late, I was disgusted with the ranting on the tube and in the posts, and the pub was particularly cheery earlier. I got a little broad with the strokes and tried to rein it in later.

General point is, there's a lot of 'Yeah, what HE said' going on out there that is totally obscuring the need to look hard at the facts. Hot words and buzz phrases abound, but little balanced analysis from any quarter.

If everybody involved believes in God, loves America and wants to make it all better, how about we pay attention to how they propose to do it? Instead there's endless character assasinations, perseverations on minor points of miniscule importance, and more divisiveness than I've ever seen in the American people. Even during the Vietnam era there was more diversity of opinion.

The hatred being spewed out in the endless smear attacks is couched in words and phrasing intended to inflame, and its working. Look at all the vicious reponses that are posted on this board in reponse to facts put forth by either side. No real discourse, just derision and pat rejoinders. Parroted phrases picked up in the media and spread by unthinking haters.

Why are we being baited with so much loaded phraseology if not to obscure the real issues? To listen to both sides tell it, God has blessed their every political move. I doubt that God is any happier being used as an American political football than as a Muslim one. I love God, too, but what are you going to do about the fact that most new jobs in America pay less than the ones we shipped overseas?

Just an appeal to stop, listen, think, and reason for yourself. No one is completely right and on one is completely wrong on the whole. The trick is to listen carefully to what they are going to DO, and think thru the consequences. All this rhetoric makes questions like "How do you intend to fund this proposition" seem weak, when in fact they're the most important.


Just wanted to see if anybody could actually think for themselves and speak without being jingoistic. There's a real shortage of that going around.

Thanks for the challenge. I appreciate your response.

[bootlen]

Bored, huh?

[Senior Tech]

Philosophically speaking....Your Wacked...

[air of honesty]

Tired, more like. Jaded, sad, disgusted, worried about the future of our grand experiment. Are we ready to give up our freedom and the inheritance of our forefathers for a mess of pottage that is 'feel good now'?

There needs to be more rational discussion of the details and less muckracking and name calling. Its starting to look and sound like an old Three Stooges movie out there.

I hope to God that something like a concrete plan with fiscal accountability is laid out by someone soon, or were going to be a second rate industrial power in debt to everyone in another 20 years. Then maybe the terrorists can pick on Japan or China...

[Senior Tech]

Pizza Hut...yah, this is air of honesty...can you send me over 3 large...no make that 6 large with the works...
(wow that was good ganga...)

[mtushmoo]

Originally posted by air of honesty

{Snip}
General point is, there's a lot of 'Yeah, what HE said' going on out there that is totally obscuring the need to look hard at the facts. Hot words and buzz phrases abound, but little balanced analysis from any quarter.



Politically, no one - neither side - is truly interested in a look at the hard facts because they have everything so screwed up since about the time of the depression, that a careful objective factual analysis is liable to cause a revolt. Nobody that is IN power wants a revolt - because then they won't be in power anymore.




If everybody involved believes in God, loves America and wants to make it all better, how about we pay attention to how they propose to do it?


That's a big fat assumption. I'm very sure that Kerry is indifferent to God. I Think Dubya is not. The other parts are anybodies guess.



Instead there's endless character assasinations, perseverations on minor points of miniscule importance, and more divisiveness than I've ever seen in the American people. Even during the Vietnam era there was more diversity of opinion.

The hatred being spewed out in the endless smear attacks is couched in words and phrasing intended to inflame, and its working. Look at all the vicious reponses that are posted on this board in reponse to facts put forth by either side. No real discourse, just derision and pat rejoinders. Parroted phrases picked up in the media and spread by unthinking haters.



This board is actually pretty docile. There's a TON more thought that goes into these posts than in some of my other forums.



Why are we being baited with so much loaded phraseology if not to obscure the real issues? To listen to both sides tell it, God has blessed their every political move. I doubt that God is any happier being used as an American political football than as a Muslim one. I love God, too, but what are you going to do about the fact that most new jobs in America pay less than the ones we shipped overseas?


*** Ding *** some would call that jobs bit a loaded phrase :)

All human interpretations of religion are by their nature flawed. The muslim religion is *really* flawed in that it doesn't recognize Christ as savior, so I'd guess that God's only hope for the Muslims is that they come to Christ.

God is not likely happy being an American political football either - he'd rather the population acted like Christians - then the politics would take care of themselves after a couple election cycles.




Just an appeal to stop, listen, think, and reason for yourself. No one is completely right and on one is completely wrong on the whole. The trick is to listen carefully to what they are going to DO, and think thru the consequences. All this rhetoric makes questions like "How do you intend to fund this proposition" seem weak, when in fact they're the most important.


True on all counts. That's how I would up a fiscal conservative, and a social moderate.



Just wanted to see if anybody could actually think for themselves and speak without being jingoistic. There's a real shortage of that going around.

Thanks for the challenge. I appreciate your response.


In politics, the hardest part of trying to make objective evaluations of plans is trying to get objective information.

There's rocket scientists of all stripes that analyse the crap out of anything the government even THINKS about doing. Trouble is, even the rocket scientists have an agenda in that they have to ensure that they are needed in the future. Thus, the simple becomes complex.

By maintaining simple, consistent, black and white principles, the complex is forced to remain simple.

People want to try to kill us. We want to stop them from trying to kill us. Is it better for this to occur on our land or their land?

People work to earn money. The government takes money from people. Is it better to take more money or less money?

Valedictorians don't know how to move a decimal point to calculate a 10 % discount. Should they?

The examples can continue forever - but this condensation of ideas really simplifies debate. There really is more nuance than that in real life - because life is sloppy, not nice and neat - but without some guiding principles to start from, all there is left is rhetorical BS.

Eric K

[air of honesty]

Yeah, I wish...Nobody getting the good stuff anymore. Lousy terrorists did what DEA never could. Nah, just high quality local brewed ale and an aching desire to hear some freakin' facts, not a bunch of put downs and name calling from those glorying in the mud wallow.

[air of honesty]

Thanks, Eric. Thoughtful.

You do need guiding principles, no doubt about it. How the heck are we going to pay for this needs to be one of them. We need to hear some concrete plans from George tonight,not general ideas, and from John in the future. Hell, I don't care about their morals, I want to know what they are going to DO.

[woods mech]

kumbaya my lord kumbaya.....

I'm good enough. I'm smart enough, and dogone it people like me.

[ozone drone]

A.H. ....I can't see anything in your posts that is cause for all the mouth foam. You don't strike me as being "whacked". I don't see any Bush Bashing ...just a person concerned about the the state of the country/world.
I think anyone who isn't concerned is whacked.

What's the deal here guys? So Bush is the better of the two candidates...okay granted. Kerry is a poll reading, wavering flake....Where to from here? Is it unpatriotic to wonder where it's all leading to? Does trying to look beyond the rhetoric make a person wacked? Once the ballots are cast and Bush is re-elected, is it job over and everybody can rest assured that we're in good hands?

You jump all over motorboy and Manko and for the most part because they just spout out the Demo hype....but this guy AH, all he's asking is : Beyond the political hype... What's the plan?

Is it choose door A or door B, then love and agree with everything behind the door you choose? Does thinking for youself, rather than be spoonfed every thought in your head make a person a wacko? Do you have to accept as gospel every assertion,decision and action made by your political party? I'm not robot # 62431 that is pre-programmed to believe everything I'm told. AH shows in his posts that he's a thinking individual. If this makes him a wacko, then please put me on the wacko list with him.

[mattm]

Actually I've always hated the smearing and wish they could just get up there and plainly state what they believe in and what their plan of action is.

The Bush campaign knows that anytime they bash Kerry's military actions it sends them into a frenzy and that continuously keeps the Kerry crew from speaking logically.

All I know about Kerry is that he seems sneaky and he thinks queers should be able to get married.

[remember]

philosophically,there is no babe in the wilderness.if there was it would die,in short order.
we are all ushered into this world by our elders.and they teach us,for good or ill.

personally I really do see people as "mixed blood".we don't make sense.unlike all other animals.

if we lived in a natural childish state,we would expend all of our energy surviving not saving.life feeds upon life.if we go back to primitive civilization.
man is born an animal.we have base desires and needs.and nature allows us to do anything in our capability.

but we are nurtured by our elders ,taught all the civilities that over countless generations have become the norm.
so a life without those "traits of civilization"can't actually exist.
and america has been shaped after the british/european model,while assimilating peoples from all the other cultures.that is our culture.

our culture has a firm grip on us even though most people don't realize they are a product of it ,along with the way we see the world,and god.

this "experiment" of the United states,hopefully is just on a downward cycle,and not really plummeting towards a breakup.or breakdown.

I don't agree with many of the federalist ideas that the founding fathers had,I do agree with some of them.but I always feel the real substance of what makes this country great,is in what the anti-federalists were for.the bill of rights.freedom.what the federalists had was the necessary cohesion to force a continent together.something that wouldn't have happened if there was no central power.which gave this young gov't the ability of a united defense from the established economic powers of europe especially britian.(we had military protection from the seas,economics is our greatest weakness and the one that has been used against us(to bad so few people know this)

I actually think that as time goes by ,the world is getting smaller,there will be "one world" one day.
I think that if this country could get out of this political gutter,and educate the people to strive for the high ideals of humanity,the united states could lead the way.
a problem is that gov'ts and religions are tools to control people.this country is a republic,rule by a few for the many.the masses are too easily manipulated for a democracy to work well,policy would change like fashion.too bad the character of our representatives is so low.
and the groups pushing the world together( for last 100 years)are looking for a type of empire under one bank,which is where the dems/repubs are going.instead of interdependance.the alternatives to globalization is keeping all politics local and economies too.keep the homefires burning,instead of multinational control.let trade benefit the people instead of the corporations.even up the tax laws so those that don't actually work,can't get ahead of the class at the expense of those that do.let the freemarket system work,stop the subsidies (like to oil companies by sending troops to defend their reserves)(or to halliburton or bechtel by being allowed to get gov't contracts and use off-shore incorporations as a tax shelter.)gov't for the people rather than for the corporation of your choice.

I'm rambling.

but good post.
there needs to be real discussion,without perverted ideas sold by the many arms of the "information board"propaganda machinery.

[sline-dawg]

Do you really think that Halliburton or Bechtel don’t do anything for the money they are paid?? Lots of people are their risking their lives to do their job, and you make lite of it… sitting in your house/ apartment criticizing. You probably make as much, if not more than most people over there, and you’re a brick-layer (mason)… I suppose you should make more money than the guy trying to figure how to get oil out of the ground and to a terminal so they can sell it and then take that money and fix their infrastructure. I hope the union takes good care of you cause God knows you couldn’t.

[caosesvida]

wow again. So much stuff here in one post. The basic idea of think for yourself , I agree with 100%. Where to get the info?? who do you trust?? thats where the difficulty comes in. Some of the most vocal participants on this board "appear" to have conflicting views within thier own groups. the rigth comes up with things that the left should be saying and visa versa. I find that interesting and hopeful. AOH had a good thougth here and I guess we will come back to it after a time.

Slime dawg: I am curious how much you have studied thomas "no pain no gain" paine? some have credited him with helping to write the contstituion with jefferson. from what I have read about him he was a true hero and great american, but was severely pooped on after the war and died in poverty and disrespect, due to politics. let me know what you think.

In that same time zone, without benidict arnold we would probably have lost the war, this is a fairly solid idea among most historians, his last act in the US being a traitor wiped all the rest of his good deeds out. "I am not backing Ben arnold, this is just an interesting fact that I came across reading some history" so save the keystokes please.

History written by the people of the beginning US in letters and stories gives great insigth into what we experience here on this forum. Many similar views (within their own timframes) that are voiced in america today, we are not that different.

[sline-dawg]

Well casa, I think Thomas Paine was an ordinary man with great foresight and common sense. He did die a poor drunk, but when push came to shove, I would gladly stand beside him. I don’t know why people today can’t show this kind of conviction. Do what is right and let the chips fall. No free rides, but if you can help someone out… do it.

[remember]

well dawg

actually I do belittle halliburton.

they are a huge multinational corporation.
the people over there with there butts on the line are just employees.where are you typing from?kut?

you must have missed another halliburton goof.they are not fulfilling reconstruction projects they have been paid for and are getting paid for. so instead tha army corps of enginneers are having to pick up the slack.there have been some big stories on it.so nevermind the overcharge for fuel. or the fact they are overcharging for meals ,they never served.

and nevermind dick cheney's ties, or george HW bush's ties either(to dresser industries,another subsidary of halliburton.)like kellogg,brown and root.these companies are all "skull and bones "associated people.a fraternatity from yale.est.1832

it was Henry niel Mallon(skull and bones 1917,classmate to george hw's dad presscott(s&B1917)), who as chairman of the board of dresser industries, gave george hw bush his start in the oil buisness in midland TX in 1946.

like some new "skull and bones " members in the scene today;
george w Bush (S&B 1968)
john kerry(S&B1966)
porter goss
bob graham

and considering there are only 15 members "tapped" every year,it is striking the ties they have .

it is like the council on foreign relations members:
dick cheney
colin powell
george tenet
don rumsfeld
condi rice
paul wolfowitz
doug feith
robert zoellick
john negroponte
elaine chao(mitch mcconnel's wife)
richard perle
dick clark
lewis"scooter"libby
alan greenspan

or:
bill clinton,al gore,madelaine albright,bill cohen,donna shalala,henry cisneros,warren christopher,les aspin,bill richardson,bruce babbit,john deutch,dick thornburgh,james woolsey,sandy berger,anthony lake,george stephanopolous,strobe talbott,peter tarnoff and winston lord

or jimmy carter
G H W Bush(a director of the council)
richard nixon
gerald ford
dwight eisenhower.etc.
thousands of well known names and products and services,all in a little community.how sweet.

so at looking at the networks these people have and their conflicts of intrest,yeah,I belittle them.

and just to get this straight.not the people over there for a paycheck.just the people that try to cloak this as a "humanitarian" mission.there are contractors all over iraq and the world that would love some of that money.but they don't get it.there are even US companies that have the will and the wherewithall to go there ,that are getting no response from this administration,I guess they don't go to the right country club.and if the aim was to help the iraqi's;that money spent there would go a long way to employing and stabilizing and improving that country.

not that I see the reason for grants to Iraq ,when the USA has a need for money and infrastructure all over.
200 billion spent to make a mess,we had a large hand in creating.not to mention the money and weapons we gave to saddam to kill and oppress all those people back in the 70's and 80's.(notice those council members were the very people that shook saddams hand when giving him money and weapons,like don rumsfeld,special envoy to bagdad in 1984,to deliver chemical weapons approval and money.)can we say,"hypocrisy)

belittle; I wish I could.

but those war profitteers are too big a mess to belittle.

[bootlen]

Hooooey! What is that odor?

[bb]

LMAO :D

I think for myself that someone should go

"Take A Chill Pill"

"Have A Coke And A Smile"

"Don't Pet The Sweaty Stuff"

Hey Who said that ?

[caosesvida]

well slime dog i agree, I think there are people like that doing the right thing evey day. Its just not news worthy, not sporty enough. I am sure you see it also. people who sacrifice for others when they don't have to. most of us would pull a child away from a car even if it meant we would die. no press no reward and even no thanks, This is what iside each and every one of us I belive. Some try to cover this up with as much BS as possible so they won't have to act on it, but they know and they suffer for it. If you wouldn't I wonder if you are really alive anyway.

[sline-dawg]

remember went to Yale and was number 16 on the list. All he wants is his chance to run a worldwide conglomerate...would that change your perspective ?

[caosesvida]

slimedog about the revolution I found it interesting that only 10% of the population actually fought in the war. The school books made you think it was the entire populatin who wasn't pro british.