A LESSON TO MY SON

[Dad]

A LESSON TO MY SON
by Irma S. Chambers




The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at war. My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve and defend our country again today. I knew that my husband would give him a good explanation.

My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go stand in our front living room window. He told him:

"Son, stand there and tell me what you see?"

"I see trees and cars and our neighbors houses." he replied.

"OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the United States of America and you are President Bush."

Our son giggled and said "OK."

"Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house and yard on this block is a different country." my husband said.

"OK Dad, I'm pretending."

"Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and see that man come out of his house with his wife and he has her by the hair and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the face, he throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her to death. Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they are kids and afraid of their father. You see all of this son....what do you do?"

"Dad?"

"What do you do son?!"

"I call the police, Dad."

"OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take your call, listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What do you do then son?!"

"Dad, but the police are supposed to help!" My son starts to whine.

"They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place or your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my husband says.

"But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.

"I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children."

"Daddy...he kills them?"

"Yes son, he does. What do you do?"

"Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door neighbor to help me stop him." our son says.

"Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my husband says.

"But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"

"WHAT DO YOU DO SON?"

Our son starts to cry.

"OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next son?"

"What Daddy?"

"He walks across the street to the old ladies house and breaks down her door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire and then...he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing in the window and laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!"

"Daddy..."

"WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!"

Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers, "I close the blinds, Daddy."

My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him... "Why?"

"Because Daddy.....the police are supposed to help...people who needs it....and they won't help....You always say that neighbors are supposed to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't help me stop him...I'm afraid....I can't do it by myself...Daddy.....I can't look out my window and just watch him do all these terrible things and...and.....do nothing...so....I'm just going to close the blinds....so I can't see what he's doing........and I'm going to pretend that it is not happening."

I start to cry.

My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window, looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husbands questions and he tells him...."Son"

"Yes, Daddy."

"Open the blinds because that man....he's at your front door..."WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!!"

My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up this tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without hesitation he says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM HURT MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM!!!!!"

I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs my son to his chest and hugs him tight, and cries..."It's too late to fight him, he's too strong and he's already at YOUR front door son.....you should have stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife. You have to do what's right, even if you have to do it alone, before......it's too late." my husband whispers.

THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good men stand by and let evil happen is the greatest EVIL of all. Our President is doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must understand that this war is a war of humanity. WE must remove this evil man from power so that we can continue to live in a free world where we are not afraid to look out our window and see crimes on humanity. So that my nine year old son won't grow up in a world where he feels that if he just "closes" that blinds the atrocities in the world won't affect him. Today the second day of "WAR on IRAQ" I felt compelled to write this and pass it along. Hopefully, you will understand the lesson my husband tried to teach our son.

"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!" BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! BE PROUD OF OUR PRESIDENT! BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!! SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT AMERICA!! SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN WILL NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR BLINDS...."

It pays to be prepared and informed. Knowledge is power!

[top-notch-tek]

Why aren't we in the Sudan right now ?

Why aren't we in North Korea right now ?

Why aren't we in Iran right now ?

Why aren't we in the Palestinian territories right now ?

Attrocities worse than anything Saddam ever inflicted are going on in these places right now. If this is a moral war ONLY, why are not fighting in ALL of these places ???

In Afghanistan and Iraq we have killed something like 15,000 to 20,000 innocent civilians ???

Is that a war crime ???

Let's pretend another story...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You live in a country and have always lived there. Things just are the way that they are. And one day a foreign power shows up and drops bombs on the government for weeks upon weeks and in the process THOUSANDS of innocent civilians are killed and maimed (many more than died on September 11, 2001). This foreign power tells you that they are your friends and are here to save you and to free you. But all you know is that you don't have any electricity, or water, and 11 of your relatives have been killed.

Do you ever believe or forgive that country? Well, do you ?

If that exact same thing happened right here today in America, would you welcome those forces as greeters and turn a blind eye to all of the innocent casualties (you mother, or maybe father, or maybe your son, or your best friend) ???

I think Saddam Hussein will rot in hell for all eternity.

But I do not think it is as black and white as it may appear to be ... that George Bush is the almighty good force in this battle.

[top-notch-tek]

And I also think terrorizing your children with a metaphor using images of brutality from their immediate surroudings might not be the best way to approach a lesson about war.

The child might suffer from PTSD for God's sake.

All strictly my opinion.

tnt

[infwsdm]

Originally posted by top-notch-tek


Attrocities worse than anything Saddam ever inflicted are going on in these places right now. If this is a moral war ONLY, why are not fighting in ALL of these places ???



Tell me, What atrocities are worse than what saddam has done??????????


And if we were in sudan or iran or north korea, you would be asking why we weren't in iraq. huh?

[top-notch-tek]

is not to say that we shouldn't be in Iraq...

But to challenge the notion raised by this thread starter that this war is somehow solely a moral war...

If our only reason for going to war is moral, then by all rights we should be in several other places on earth right now fighting for the same reasons.

infwsdm - what about the other questions I asked??? How would you feel if what was happening there was happening here???

PS - Saddam has killed something like 600,000 in 30 years of ruling Iraq. That's about 20,000 a year on average. Since we started the War on terror we have killed approximately 15 - 20,000 innocent civilians in just over a year. I know it is convenient as an American from the sidelines to say that those are unfortunate. But to the people of Iraq (muslims at that) those casualties are reasons for blood vendettas to last for 10 generations. We are creating the very enemies that we intend to destroy in whole new generations of young Iraqis.

In Rwanda over 1 million people were systemically killed in a mass genocide while the US did nothing... The same things are going on in the Sudan and have been, but we are not there fighting...

[Edited by top-notch-tek on 08-23-2004 at 09:08 PM]

[infwsdm]

Originally posted by top-notch-tek

infwsdm - what about the other questions I asked??? How would you feel if what was happening there was happening here???



Not a valid question because it would never happen here.

[infwsdm]

Originally posted by top-notch-tek
We are creating the very enemies that we intend to destroy in whole new generations of young Iraqis.



Not true.

9/11 was a big recruitment day for terrorists. They jumped on that bandwagon. Did you see all the freaks cheering that 3000 innocent people were killed?

[bootlen]

PS - Saddam has killed something like 600,000 in 30 years of ruling Iraq. That's about 20,000 a year on average. Since we started the War on terror we have killed approximately 15 - 20,000 innocent civilians in just over a year. I know it is convenient as an American from the sidelines to say that those are unfortunate. But to the people of Iraq (muslims at that) those casualties are reasons for blood vendettas to last for 10 generations. We are creating the very enemies that we intend to destroy in whole new generations of young Iraqis. [Posted by top-notch-tek]

================================================== =========

I can believe we've killed 15-20,000 but I doubt seriously they were "innocent civilians". Seems the Iraqis dying now are being killed by insurgents and radical Iraqis. They're even lofting bombs into the prison camps, killing more prisoners than captors.

Yeah, that's one bunch we'll not miss when they're gone.

[top-notch-tek]

Let's assume that all human beings have a problem with their friends and family being blown up... :(

IF ... IF ... IF ... IF ...

If one day bombs started dropping in your neck of the woods and blew up your child's house...

IF that happened...

Would you be predisposed to forgiving the person dropping the bombs???

Could they do enough to convince you of their GOOD intentions???

It's a simply question...

Even though one might not LIKE the answer...

For most the answer is NO, I would hate those F---ERS until they day I died and I would kill 'em with my bare hands if I could to this day...

Then throw Allah into the mix and you got a big pot of hatrid being stirred up !!!

After September 11th happened, the President should have looked the American people in the face and said "Never Again"...

And spent every cent that he has spent on these wars, instead to secure our borders, our planes, our trains, our schools, reinforce our police, our water plants, our nuclear power plants, etc...

When our security was breached by terrorists...

We should not have started a War - ON - Terrorism.

We should have started a War - FOR - Security.

*** Terrorism is a TACTIC not an ENEMY. How do we win a war against a tactic??? ***

Where is the clear and defined goal there? Blow up enough muslims that everybody will be too afraid to engage in terrorism??? Wake up. These people aren't afraid of us, they aren't afraid of death, even when we deliver it to them.

Now that being said, we ARE in a WAR, and I support the effort. (I am NO bleeding heart liberal).

However, I think the reasons for us being there should not be stated as a moral obligation to all of humanity. I think it should be stated as we are gonna get them before they get us.

I simply don't agree with the original poster's ideas about why we are there.

You wanna know what I think, I think we should be throwing bombs at this enemy, not bodies. I think we should nuke every country in the axis of evil. Because it's right - NO, because its moral - NO, because we are crusaders for what is good - NO... but because they have made it US or THEM... and by God, I'll choose my ass over there's anytime.

At least I can be honest.

[Edited by top-notch-tek on 08-23-2004 at 11:38 PM]

[bobby7388]

Ok!! top-notch-tek well let's assume for a second that in one of those houses is a man who breaks into other houses on the street, can you trust him not to break into yours eventually?

I believe the metaphor is correct but missing one critical part, Saddam was that guy who broke into others houses, and also made and sold crack I heard.

[top-notch-tek]

No one seems to be getting what I am saying.

So let me clarify, and then tell me where I am wrong, OK?

This is what I believe:

1. We are there fighting this war to do battle with our enemies on their home court instead of here, and to kill them before they kill us. (Not out of some moral obligation to the tortured and oppressed Iraqi citizens, if that was so, why did we wait 30 years to become so moral???)

2. Saddam was and is a scumbag.

3. We are fighting a war in which we are taking needless casualties (Why are our young men and women standing over there on street corners like traffic patrol being blown up on an almost daily basis??? We train them to kill and defend, not to conduct traffic and be blown up???)

4. Why are we throwing bodies at a problem that we should be throwing bombs at??? (We started this Iraqi War, why don't we just finish it by killing every last one of them??? If American lives are so valuable, why are we taking casualties to fight this war in a polite fashion???)

I'm not a bleeding heart liberal, simply because I don't agree with someone else's rationale for why we are there... When someone asks me how I feel about it, my usual answer is "We should bring them all the death, that they so cherish, so that we may get on with the living..."

Does that sound candy-ass to you?

50 years ago we dropped the nuclear bomb to end the war and killed the largest number of innocent civilians ever at one time in the history of the planet ... What does that say for our moral compass ???

I don't have delusion of moral grandness... I simply think we should give 'em all the old 1,2 and be done with it.

[Edited by top-notch-tek on 08-23-2004 at 11:54 PM]

[infwsdm]

ok ok I'll play.

Lets just say that on 9/11 those bombs came a dropping in OUR backyard.

Do I want blood? Hell yeah.

As far as the forgiving thing. forgivness is for self not another. So that's a different issue. But let it be known that they won't be getting any hugs from me!

However, Our backyard is not oppressed so all things are not equal.

Allah-- we are dealing with a bunch of brainwashed, can't think for themselves, flintstone living mother F@##ers.

The war is on terrorists that use the tactic of terrorism. how you fight it is disrupt the breeding ground.

Iraq is a long term deal. The results won't be in for 20+ years (my opinion). These people were spoon fed bull**** all their lives. The majority of the people who hate us don't even know why they hate us. They were taught to hate us.

Iraq is only part of the 'war on terrorism'

as far as the 'moral' issue. yes I see your point but we can't be everywhere at once but we have to be somewhere. And the rest of the free world needs to get involved in these issues. And like you said, we are not there for 'moral' reasons like the original posters post suggests

The french and germans and friends need to get involved and it's not the fault of the USA that they aren't.

I think it was a BIG F@#% up to let saddam remain in power after the first gulf war. I said it then and I say it now.


Is that better?;)

[Edited by infwsdm on 08-24-2004 at 12:03 AM]

[infwsdm]

Originally posted by top-notch-tek
No one seems to be getting what I am saying.
I get what you are saying. The 'moral' issue. It's a subjective term though

So let me clarify, and then tell me where I am wrong, OK?

OK

This is what I believe:

1. We are there fighting this war to do battle with our enemies on their home court instead of here, and to kill them before they kill us. (Not out of some moral obligation to the tortured and oppressed Iraqi citizens, if that was so, why did we wait 30 years to become so moral???)
I agree

2. Saddam was and is a scumbag.

I agree

3. We are fighting a war in which we are taking needless casualties (Why are our young men and women standing over there on street corners like traffic patrol being blown up on an almost daily basis??? We train them to kill and defend, not to conduct traffic and be blown up???)

This is where politics comes in and F@##s everything up with the 'win hearts and minds' bull****. namely, the liberals

4. Why are we throwing bodies at a problem that we should be throwing bombs at??? (We started this Iraqi War, why don't we just finish it by killing every last one of them??? If American lives are so valuable, why are we taking casualties to fight this war in a polite fashion???)

If I were in charge I would have rounded up all the innocent, get them out of harms way, and then level the place.

Then build it back up minus all the bad guys. Give the people a piece of land for their troubles.

I'm not a bleeding heart liberal, simply because I don't agree with someone else's rationale for why we are there... When someone asks me how I feel about it, my usual answer is "We should bring them all the death, that they so cherish, so that we may get on with the living..."

Like I said, level the joint

[/B]

[bobby7388]

I wasen't accusing you of being right or wrong, you were stating your opinion.
My post was a response to your first reply as to why are we not in other countries doing the same as we are in Iraq.
Any average, stable minded American can see through the smoke that has risen and come to a conclusion why we needed to take Saddam out.

Morality is another question, I guess it all depends on what side of the street of Morality your stand on.
Yes we dropped the A-bomb on a country, twice. But was it our morals or thiers we were concerned with? Our morals dictated that we save more American lives than Japanese lives, it was a risk, we took it and we won.

Every war has a risk of winning and lossing, problem is that you just can't tell the outcome without going through it first.
Yes, fighting wars does include fighting but it also includes staying after the fact and stabilizing, which does include traffic control amongst other duties.

Our war is not with the Iraq people, it is with the insurgents, albiet some are Iraq I assume, but most are of other origin infusing into the populace, making our job that much harder to packup or drop a nuclear device to win.
Remember, Japan was a country at war, with full support of it's people, Iraq is a whole other beast to be fought in a very much different manner.

One similarity between other wars is that they can roam among us, looking for targets of opportunity on our soil, this is where we are most vunerable.
We as a nation need to control the people that wish us harm, problem is how to do it without either closing the borders, or locking up every single muslim?
Our freedoms can bite us in the arsh if we don't stand together and watch out for one another.

[top-notch-tek]

:D

The point here is that this rally 'round the leader mentality is what we all have to resort to when the war effort is attacked.

Then we stop questioning...

I don't question IF the war should be fought...

I question HOW the war is being fought.

The president dropped those bombs over there for weeks straight (remember shock and awe) because this was going to be a 'smart war'. We were going to use bombs so that we didn't have to sacrifice large numbers of our soldiers...

So we did all that to turn around and post our soldiers on street corners being blowm up???

I don't get it.

Why don't we build a fortress in the middle of every town and send the Iraqis forces out to fight for us???

It seems like this is what it is moving towards, but a little late. This is a war, they should have planned to avoid this QUAGMIRE that our soldiers have been stuck in for a year...

I think whoever comes to the office of the presidency, will have to fight this battle for generations to come. I don't think this war is exclusive to Bush, nor can it only be fought by Bush...

It will be fought by whoever resides at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue... I'm quite confident.

Meanwhile everybody's quality of life is slipping here. What are we going to have left to defend it America turns to s---??? I'm not a socialist. But we need somebody in office who will pay attention to what is happening here.

1. Why are we the only industrialized nation on earth who does not offer healthcare for all its citizens?

2. Why do we send billions of dollars overseas to countries like Egypt when we have people here with no jobs?

We can't ignore or neglect our society.

I just don't think that George Bush is necessarily the answer to all of our prayers... Nor do I think that about John Kerry.

However, at least I can trust a little more in the words that come out of W's mouth.

[top-notch-tek]

I don't feel attacked.

Sometimes I just say "For Pete's Sake" for dramatic effect.

However, I do not believe that Japan was a country with the full support of its citizens.

I believe that Japan was a country ruled by fascists where the people saw no other choice but to support it...

[bobby7388]

Americans do not support universal healthcare, though some may believe that, it just will not happen with the American mentality as of now.
It is a drain on any economy and something will have to give, yet no one wants to give up anything.

When I was in my teens and twenties I use to wonder why we give all this money away to other countries.
Ever hear of buying your friends, well that's just about what it comes down to. If we were to stop aid the world would be a much different place than it is now.

As for military plans, what might work today isn't going to work tommorow. Any military planner knows that situations change, and plans will have to follow. There just isn't a plan that will stay written in concrete.
And when I hear Kerry speak of said plans I know the guy is full of shiat, even he knows that a solid, straight forward plan doesn't exist.


The Japanese were a very disciplined society, following their Emperors decisions without hesitation, granted there are always a few stray cats, but all-in-all they were a nation at war against the evil Americans. They were only not allowed to question the Emperors decisions they were not even allowed to see him in person, to them he was a god not to be dismissed, same as any religion holds thier gods in high regard. The difference here is that they were a united religion with one goal.
After the war Japans discipline helped the Americans alot in securing thier own nation, problems were few and far between. Other countries were not so fortunate.

[top-notch-tek]

Originally posted by bobby7388
Americans do not support universal healthcare, though some may believe that, it just will not happen with the American mentality as of now.
It is a drain on any economy and something will have to give, yet no one wants to give up anything.

When I was in my teens and twenties I use to wonder why we give all this money away to other countries.
Ever hear of buying your friends, well that's just about what it comes down to. If we were to stop aid the world would be a much different place than it is now.

As for military plans, what might work today isn't going to work tommorow. Any military planner knows that situations change, and plans will have to follow. There just isn't a plan that will stay written in concrete.
And when I hear Kerry speak of said plans I know the guy is full of shiat, even he knows that a solid, straight forward plan doesn't exist.


The Japanese were a very disciplined society, following their Emperors decisions without hesitation, granted there are always a few stray cats, but all-in-all they were a nation at war against the evil Americans. They were only not allowed to question the Emperors decisions they were not even allowed to see him in person, to them he was a god not to be dismissed, same as any religion holds thier gods in high regard. The difference here is that they were a united religion with one goal.
After the war Japans discipline helped the Americans alot in securing thier own nation, problems were few and far between. Other countries were not so fortunate.

Wouldn't you say that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of the cure??? Doesn't this usually hold true??? Well, in my life it has. :)

I think it is the same with healthcare...

You spoke of the cost of universal health care on our society and the drain that it would be on the economy...

I'm here to tell you, from my interpretation of current events, having 42 million uninsured Americans in a MUCH, MUCH bigger drain on the economy. From sick days, to unproductive-unhealthy workers, to medical leaves, to low moral and low productivity... :(

Whether we want to admit it or not, the rest of the civilized world has proven that universal health care is a CIVILIZED choice that only benefits society...

If we choose the path to universal healthcare, yes, we would have to admit that things are hard and expensive...

But when we choose our current path, we just pretend that there are no costs associated with having this many uninsured citizens. Once again, the sheltered-American way is to stick our heads in the sand or listen to some feel-good music and pretend like it really doesn't matter.

The answer is GREED, pure and simple. Capitalism at its rawest and uncensored...

[Dad]

Originally posted by top-notch-tek
is not to say that we shouldn't be in Iraq...

But to challenge the notion raised by this thread starter that this war is somehow solely a moral war...


I will defend your right to make the challenge but understand what you are challenging first. There was NO "notion raised by me on this war being solely a moral war". You just made that up all by yourself.

I was sent this story and was appalled by the way the father gave his answer. I have two sons and a daughter with two grandchildren. I posted here to see if others reacted the same way I did. You did, thank you.

It is not that I am against this war or for it. War, no matter where it is or who is in it is horrifying. Been there done that...there are no real winners.

Thank you for your replies to this thread.

[top-notch-tek]

You are right...

I did assume your view... :(

I just assumed that because you posted this piece of literature that you were supporting it's content ... due to your lack of explanation or opinions in the original post.

Enough said ... I believe that I have explained my view on the article.

Nice website by the way ... How's business???



[Edited by top-notch-tek on 08-24-2004 at 10:40 AM]

[Dad]

Originally posted by top-notch-tek
You are right...

I did assume your view... :(

I just assumed that because you posted this piece of literature that you were supporting it's content ... due to your lack of explanation or opinions in the original post.

Enough said ... I believe that I have explained my view on the article.

Nice website by the way ... How's business???

TNK,

It's all good. My lack of explanations or opinions was intentional. In retrospect you may understand my actions. I did not contaminate the post with my view before the replies. I tend to think that I get a better view of other opinions that way and believe that this post area is perfect for just that. I must admit...it was an interesting ride.

Thanks for the website comment. I wanted to make something as simple and to the point as possible. Again, not contaminating views. Pictures tend to give better input than words in my opinion. Too many links create boredom.

Business has been good this year, thanks for asking. Right now we are experiencing the normal break that comes from back-to-school. This is a welcome time for my guys as they need time to breath after going mach II for 7 months.

I hope you have smooth sailing as well, all things are good. Thanks again to everyone for their replies.

[spike]

Originally posted by top-notch-tek
Why aren't we in the Sudan right now ?

Why aren't we in North Korea right now ?

Why aren't we in Iran right now ?

Why aren't we in the Palestinian territories right now ?

Attrocities worse than anything Saddam ever inflicted are going on in these places right now. If this is a moral war ONLY, why are not fighting in ALL of these places ???





You eat an elephant one bite at a time....

[top-notch-tek]

Originally posted by spike

Originally posted by top-notch-tek
Why aren't we in the Sudan right now ?

Why aren't we in North Korea right now ?

Why aren't we in Iran right now ?

Why aren't we in the Palestinian territories right now ?

Attrocities worse than anything Saddam ever inflicted are going on in these places right now. If this is a moral war ONLY, why are not fighting in ALL of these places ???





You eat an elephant one bite at a time....



I wouldn't know ! :eek:

[superheater]

How many of you would let your children inlist.There is no plan any more .

[bootlen]

Originally posted by superheater
How many of you would let your children inlist.There is no plan any more .

================================================== =========

Not me. I'd expect him to be an adult first.

[bootlen]

The president dropped those bombs over there for weeks straight (remember shock and awe) because this was going to be a 'smart war'. We were going to use bombs so that we didn't have to sacrifice large numbers of our soldiers...
[Posted by top-notch-tek]

================================================== =========

Define "large numbers of soldiers".

If you think we can drop bombs for a month and win without occupation of the land, you know jack about war. Occupation is a necessary evil.

Yes, resistance is greater than expected but still it is the greatest military victory in history. And, yes, it is a victory. One regime was toppled and the new government is up and running.

Would I want my son to serve there...to die there? Of course not. But I wouldn't be angry with the President if it happened. I'd be angry with those who necessitated our actions there.
My son is a deputy sheriff and his life is on the line every single day. He could be killed by some idiot at any time. Should I be angry with the President about that? Should I become a lib because my son's life is in danger? Should we carpet bomb my son's area of responsibility and wait for the next crime to take place and bomb the place again? Nah, I don't think so. Maybe we need to let him keep on patrolling and pray for his safety.

Common sense. You just gotta have a little.

[motorboy1]

Originally posted by superheater
How many of you would let your children inlist.There is no plan any more .

There used to be a thread on here called "The Plan" or something like that. Us thinking people where questioning "The Plan" and all the patriotic (psychotic) Bush lemmings could say about it was that it was secret and that us mere mortals shouldn't even question this administration. Guess what? There obviously wasn't a plan or if there ever was it was totaly inept just like the shrub.

Wonder why the Bush twins don't enlist? I'm sure their dad can secure them a nice, cushy and safe stateside duty somewhere. Hopefully they won't go AWOL like their sissy father.

[Edited by motorboy1 on 08-26-2004 at 12:59 AM]

[bootlen]

Originally posted by motorboy1

Originally posted by superheater
How many of you would let your children inlist.There is no plan any more .

There used to be a thread on here called "The Plan" or something like that. Us thinking people where questioning "The Plan" and all the patriotic (psychotic) Bush lemmings could say about it was that it was secret and that us mere mortals shouldn't even question this administration. Guess what? There obviously wasn't a plan or if there ever was it was totaly inept just like the shrub.

Wonder why the Bush twins don't enlist? I'm sure their dad can secure them a nice, cushy and safe stateside duty somewhere. Hopefully they won't go AWOL like their sissy father.

[Edited by motorboy1 on 08-26-2004 at 12:59 AM]

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So this is where they get the expression "dumb as a post."

[top-notch-tek]

Originally posted by bootlen
The president dropped those bombs over there for weeks straight (remember shock and awe) because this was going to be a 'smart war'. We were going to use bombs so that we didn't have to sacrifice large numbers of our soldiers...
[Posted by top-notch-tek]

================================================== =========

Define "large numbers of soldiers".

If you think we can drop bombs for a month and win without occupation of the land, you know jack about war. Occupation is a necessary evil.

Yes, resistance is greater than expected but still it is the greatest military victory in history. And, yes, it is a victory. One regime was toppled and the new government is up and running.

Would I want my son to serve there...to die there? Of course not. But I wouldn't be angry with the President if it happened. I'd be angry with those who necessitated our actions there.
My son is a deputy sheriff and his life is on the line every single day. He could be killed by some idiot at any time. Should I be angry with the President about that? Should I become a lib because my son's life is in danger? Should we carpet bomb my son's area of responsibility and wait for the next crime to take place and bomb the place again? Nah, I don't think so. Maybe we need to let him keep on patrolling and pray for his safety.

Common sense. You just gotta have a little.



You are ignorant. You are one of those people who is not open-minded enough to consider someone else's point-of-view for even a moment because you are too busy finding any way you can to defend your point-of-view and your candidate.

By the way, even one soldier blown up directing traffic in Iraq is too damn many ... there, does that answer your question ???

I'm sorry that I'm not 117 years old, but I am YOUNG and ALERT enough to use critical thinking and understand that this war can be fought smarter.

This was a reasonably intelligent thread until you chimed in Bootlen.

[bootlen]

You are ignorant. You are one of those people who is not open-minded enough to consider someone else's point-of-view for even a moment because you are too busy finding any way you can to defend your point-of-view and your candidate.

By the way, even one soldier blown up directing traffic in Iraq is too damn many ... there, does that answer your question ???

I'm sorry that I'm not 117 years old, but I am YOUNG and ALERT enough to use critical thinking and understand that this war can be fought smarter.

This was a reasonably intelligent thread until you chimed in Bootlen. [Posted by top-notch-tech]

================================================== ==========

Ooooooo! Aren't we testy today! Burnt toast for breakfast or that time of the month?

The truth is offensive...but it's still truth whether you agree with it or not.

I'm not totally satisfied with the way things are going in Iraq either. But we are committed to a mission and to back out would be wrong and all those who have died will have died for nothing. Ya know, we can fight these lousy battles in the streets of Iraq or we can fight them in that parcel of land between Canada and Mexico. Those are currently our choices. Maybe you would prefer we do this in Tucumcari, Buffalo, and San Jose. I like the war being fought right where it is.

[top-notch-tek]

Ooooooo! Aren't we testy today! Burnt toast for breakfast or that time of the month?

The truth is offensive...but it's still truth whether you agree with it or not.

I'm not totally satisfied with the way things are going in Iraq either. But we are committed to a mission and to back out would be wrong and all those who have died will have died for nothing. Ya know, we can fight these lousy battles in the streets of Iraq or we can fight them in that parcel of land between Canada and Mexico. Those are currently our choices. Maybe you would prefer we do this in Tucumcari, Buffalo, and San Jose. I like the war being fought right where it is.

Quote from Bootlen ...

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OMG, I'll respond to your ridiculous points one at a time:

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1. I had raisin bran with banana for breakfast. :p

2. It's not that time of the month, I am smarter than you all 31 days. :p

3. Seems we agree on that point, we are both unsatisfied with the way things are going in Iraq - read my posts...

4. Seems we agree on that point, we are not against the war, and are both for doing it over there, and are both for finishing our commitment in Iraq - read my posts...

5. Seems we agree on that point, we both like the war being fought right where it is - read my posts...

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I don't know what you are interpreting when you are reading my posts in this thread, but it is clearly not what was intended or written... I think this battle is largely in YOUR head. :(

It's almost as if you are using this forum as a way to rant about your dissatisfaction with the left...

I'm somewhere in the middle...

None of the points you referenced are valid regarding my posts... :(

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Two places where we seem to disagree:

1. Making sense.

... and ...

2. Blindly supporting George W. Bush

:D Hey, you basically asked for this verbal ass-whooping :D

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If you want to spew ignorance, I can not stop you and I won't even try, but let it be known, that most reading your posts realize it for just that ... 'spewed ignorance'. :)

[bootlen]

OK, TNT. How would YOU have handled the Iraq problem? Convince me we were not justified in removing Sadam...with or without help.

And...now that we are there, under the given circumstances, what would be your plan?

All I've heard is putting down W (not necessarily by you) while the nation is at war. You are right...I am not open to that. I AM open to better ideas. None have been posted.

[top-notch-tek]

Originally posted by bootlen
OK, TNT. How would YOU have handled the Iraq problem? Convince me we were not justified in removing Sadam...with or without help.

And...now that we are there, under the given circumstances, what would be your plan?

All I've heard is putting down W (not necessarily by you) while the nation is at war. You are right...I am not open to that. I AM open to better ideas. None have been posted.

OK, I AM A MODERATE-UNDECIDED, NOT A LIBERAL...

First off...

I think we were justified in going to Iraq ... I am simply against people saying it is a moral war, it is a war of self-defense manifested as offense ... nothing more and nothing less.

Secondly ...

I am upset that they didn't see the resistance coming and in fact ... I don't believe that. They have had years of specialists studying this region, just look at Israel, these people HATE non-muslims...

Did they really believe we would be greated as liberators? Did they need to feed that BS to the American public? It is an insult.

We should have had a plan for the occupation, that's how I would have done it differently...

Third ...

This is where it gets ugly. We in America always want to believe there is a better way, that you can always reason with people if you find the right way, that all people are essentially good, etc ...

We are wrong.

The world isn't always pretty, there isn't always a humane solution to every problem.

Unfortunately, I think this will escalate to a global religious world war III and that we will win ... But it will be ugly and people will be dead ...

If you ask me, this is where it stands right now:

Our government knows that in order to drop the bomb things have to get SO bad (a certain level of badness), our government is waiting for that point, and then it will be all out war. It's hard to sell all out war to the American public... But maybe after a sarin gas attack in New York City, or a train derailment in Detroit, or a nuclear disaster in another major city IT WILL BE TIME to start the erradication.

Well you asked my POV, that is it.

[bootlen]

TNT, I have to say we are not far apart at all. I don't think there were lies so much as lousy intel. And the intel was lousy because of the breakdown of resources created by previous lib policies. The intel info that W had was far off the mark and things were way different in 2001 than they were in, say, 1990. Iraq is in a region that is extremely volatile. What is today may not be tomorrow. A lot of changes take place in 10 years. The one thing that does not change (and has not in 6000 years) is the Arabs hatred for non-muslim, and particularly Jews. That little unchanging issue seems to be neglected by every single leader in the world in history.

This war cannot be fought politically. It can only be fought on the battleground. We will NEVER win their hearts and minds. It is a spiritual battle and their will be only ONE winner.

I wish I could agree that the U.S. will win this war but I don't believe we will. God help us.

[top-notch-tek]

Originally posted by bootlen

I wish I could agree that the U.S. will win this war but I don't believe we will. God help us.

Bootlen,

One thing that you can be sure of and that helps me sleep better at night is this:

"The United States of America will NEVER lose a war. We will never be conquered or captured. We will blow up every last living thing to prevent that from happening."

"We may not always WIN, but we will NEVER LOSE..."

[bootlen]

TNT, I hope you're right. But if Kerry wins the election, he'll lay down like a female dog, belly up. What a piece of crap he is.

[top-notch-tek]

Originally posted by bootlen
TNT, I hope you're right. But if Kerry wins the election, he'll lay down like a female dog, belly up. What a piece of crap he is.

Down Points:

Kerry-

1. two-faced
2. way left liberal
3. supporter of all bullcrap policies from gay marriage to affirmative action.

Bush-

1. uninformed and out of touch
2. way right conservative
3. supporter of corporate bullcrap policies like taking away over-time from union workers who make over $50,000 per year.

Kerry is a dork, but Bush is not the almighty...

If you ask me, both candidates suck.

If you vote for Kerry, you vote for union support, keeping your overtime, and gay marriage and affirmative action.

If you vote for Bush, you vote for corporate america and the stifling of upward mobility for all of our citizens, losing your overtime, and ethics that most probably agree with.

There is no easy choice.

But money is where it hurts the worst.

So I will probably vote for Kerry to vote for unions and my wages and benefits and health care...

[Edited by top-notch-tek on 08-26-2004 at 02:21 PM]

[bootlen]

TNT, that's like taking a bribe. Kerry is also pro-abortion. If your paycheck is more important to you than children's lives, there's blood on your money.

[top-notch-tek]

Originally posted by bootlen
TNT, that's like taking a bribe. Kerry is also pro-abortion. If your paycheck is more important to you than children's lives, there's blood on your money.

I understand that.

But I believe that it is not always so black and white.
(I don't mean the abortion issue, I am firmly against that.)

What I mean is this:

How many children die because of reduced funding to local facilities from the federal gov't and they can't be protected from abuse in their home and city?

Or...

How many children will die because of reduced funding or a lack of support for nationalized health care?

Or...

How many children will die because Bush supports forcing people into marriage, even if it abusive and is a broken home?

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Bootlen,

I am anti-abortion ... but abortion is not the only force at work in this country that is harming and killing children.

I don't believe in over-simplifications ...

[top-notch-tek]

Nice website by-the-way...

Shouldn't it say "YOUR comfort is our priority"???

Instead of "OUR comfort is our priority"???

:D

[bootlen]

TNT, is what you are saying that if we kill them before they are born, we won't have to protect them? That may not be the implication but it IS the inference.

You are right. I did oversimplify. But I also stated truth. None of it is really a political issue. If we do what is honorable before God on each issue, they become God's problems. He is more than able to provide us with what we need to address those issues. I don't know much about you. Maybe you're not a person who takes God at His word...maybe you don't believe the Bible. But it weighs heavily on my point of view.

[top-notch-tek]

Originally posted by bootlen
TNT, is what you are saying that if we kill them before they are born, we won't have to protect them? That may not be the implication but it IS the inference.

You are right. I did oversimplify. But I also stated truth. None of it is really a political issue. If we do what is honorable before God on each issue, they become God's problems. He is more than able to provide us with what we need to address those issues. I don't know much about you. Maybe you're not a person who takes God at His word...maybe you don't believe the Bible. But it weighs heavily on my point of view.

Bootlen,

I gotta love ya man. :)

But if you inferred --- T H A T --- from reading my post ... I HAVE TO ASK ...

What was the final grade you completed in school ??? :D:p

You are on a different planet buddy.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by top-notch-tek
Nice website by-the-way...

Shouldn't it say "YOUR comfort is our priority"???

Instead of "OUR comfort is our priority"???

:D

================================================== =========

Now who didn't finish school? It says "...customer..." and not "...comfort..."

[top-notch-tek]

If it does.

I will put my foot in my mouth.

I'll be back. I'm going to check.

[top-notch-tek]

The taste of foot... :mad:

[bootlen]

TNT, what was your point in mentioning kids who are abused or lack health care? Were you not comparing one issue to another?

[top-notch-tek]

Originally posted by bootlen
TNT, is what you are saying that if we kill them before they are born, we won't have to protect them? That may not be the implication but it IS the inference.

You are right. I did oversimplify. But I also stated truth. None of it is really a political issue. If we do what is honorable before God on each issue, they become God's problems. He is more than able to provide us with what we need to address those issues. I don't know much about you. Maybe you're not a person who takes God at His word...maybe you don't believe the Bible. But it weighs heavily on my point of view.

I'm not saying any of that. :confused:

I'm saying abortion is wrong.

But it is not the only thing out there harming and killing children. There are other policies held by our government that cause harm to children everyday. Like some of those which I clearly cited.

That is what I am saying.

Reread my post.

[bootlen]

Sheesh, you got one fast computer there. I don't finish posting before you respond.

[top-notch-tek]

Originally posted by bootlen
TNT, what was your point in mentioning kids who are abused or lack health care? Were you not comparing one issue to another?

Hypothetically speaking, work with me here Bootlen: :)

A candidate who is pro-choice has adopted a policy that harms and kills children. (Get it?)

Similarly, a candidate who adopts policies such as forcing people in bad marriages, or not supporting nationalized health care, or cutting funding to local mental health facilities who have to help mentally impaired parents is ALSO adopting a policy(s) that harm or kill children. (Get it?)

That is what I mean by it is not that black and white.

What I am saying, is that abortion is wrong as it harms and kills children ... but that conservatives also adopt policies that harm and kill children ...

Such as those cited above and many more.

So, I don't choose a candidate ONLY based on their stance on abortion ... that would be stupid !!!

If you choose not to see it, there is nothing I or anybody else can do for you.

[top-notch-tek]

my computer is very fast...

in fact, it is the Mazaratti of computers... :p

[top-notch-tek]

I type with all ten fingers... :p

[bootlen]

We have to not let money be the reason to put one man in office over another if lives of children are at stake.

My point is this. You go to the polling booth thinking, "Bush is against abortion, Kerry is for. Bush is raising the deficit and Kerry promises to cut it which affects my income. I really need to put food on the table for my family even though I hate abortion. I better vote for Kerry."
Kerry has bribed you with a promise of better pay. That puts blood on your paycheck.

[top-notch-tek]

it puts farts on your brain.


As you make no sense.


End of conversation. ;)

[bootlen]

But it is not the only thing out there harming and killing children. There are other policies held by our government that cause harm to children everyday. [Posted by top-notch-tek]

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Bring to where you're thinking. What Bush policies specifically harm children?

[bootlen]

I see how it is now. You losing in an argument and run away. No answer in 2 days from you.

But in another forum, you demand an immediate answer. Maybe the guy was called out on a service.

I'm quite sure you'll go to the polls in Nov. and cast your vote for Kerry beacuse your paycheck is of a higher priority than the life of a baby. You see the truth of that and can't handle it and so you run away.

I wish you luck. You're gonna need all of it you can find.

Bye-bye.

[top-notch-tek]

Originally posted by bootlen
I see how it is now. You losing in an argument and run away. No answer in 2 days from you.

But in another forum, you demand an immediate answer. Maybe the guy was called out on a service.

I'm quite sure you'll go to the polls in Nov. and cast your vote for Kerry beacuse your paycheck is of a higher priority than the life of a baby. You see the truth of that and can't handle it and so you run away.

I wish you luck. You're gonna need all of it you can find.

Bye-bye.



Yes Bootlen. Pray for my soul.

Does God accept prayers from other universes, because that is obviously where you live.

[hvac r us 2]

How old are you two? 6 and 8?

Is to...
Is not...
Is to...
Is not...

Name calling should start pretty soon!

[bootlen]

Nah, not goin' there. TNT can't hang unless we agree with him. His prob. Not mine.

[hack hater]

Originally posted by bootlen
Nah, not goin' there. TNT can't hang unless we agree with him. His prob. Not mine. I'm with ya Bootlen-lotta great points you have.

[top-notch-tek]

Originally posted by hack hater

Originally posted by bootlen
Nah, not goin' there. TNT can't hang unless we agree with him. His prob. Not mine. I'm with ya Bootlen-lotta great points you have.

It's not fair talking about me while I am out killing babies. :mad:

[top-notch-tek]

Originally posted by lusker


A LESSON TO MY SON
by Irma S. Chambers




The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at war. My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve and defend our country again today. I knew that my husband would give him a good explanation.

My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go stand in our front living room window. He told him:

"Son, stand there and tell me what you see?"

"I see trees and cars and our neighbors houses." he replied.

"OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the United States of America and you are President Bush."

Our son giggled and said "OK."

"Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house and yard on this block is a different country." my husband said.

"OK Dad, I'm pretending."

"Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and see that man come out of his house with his wife and he has her by the hair and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the face, he throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her to death. Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they are kids and afraid of their father. You see all of this son....what do you do?"

"Dad?"

"What do you do son?!"

"I call the police, Dad."

"OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take your call, listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What do you do then son?!"

"Dad, but the police are supposed to help!" My son starts to whine.

"They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place or your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my husband says.

"But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.

"I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children."

"Daddy...he kills them?"

"Yes son, he does. What do you do?"

"Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door neighbor to help me stop him." our son says.

"Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my husband says.

"But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!"

"WHAT DO YOU DO SON?"

Our son starts to cry.

"OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next son?"

"What Daddy?"

"He walks across the street to the old ladies house and breaks down her door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire and then...he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing in the window and laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!"

"Daddy..."

"WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!"

Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers, "I close the blinds, Daddy."

My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him... "Why?"

"Because Daddy.....the police are supposed to help...people who needs it....and they won't help....You always say that neighbors are supposed to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't help me stop him...I'm afraid....I can't do it by myself...Daddy.....I can't look out my window and just watch him do all these terrible things and...and.....do nothing...so....I'm just going to close the blinds....so I can't see what he's doing........and I'm going to pretend that it is not happening."

I start to cry.

My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window, looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husbands questions and he tells him...."Son"

"Yes, Daddy."

"Open the blinds because that man....he's at your front door..."WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!!"

My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up this tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without hesitation he says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM HURT MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM!!!!!"

I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs my son to his chest and hugs him tight, and cries..."It's too late to fight him, he's too strong and he's already at YOUR front door son.....you should have stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife. You have to do what's right, even if you have to do it alone, before......it's too late." my husband whispers.

THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good men stand by and let evil happen is the greatest EVIL of all. Our President is doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must understand that this war is a war of humanity. WE must remove this evil man from power so that we can continue to live in a free world where we are not afraid to look out our window and see crimes on humanity. So that my nine year old son won't grow up in a world where he feels that if he just "closes" that blinds the atrocities in the world won't affect him. Today the second day of "WAR on IRAQ" I felt compelled to write this and pass it along. Hopefully, you will understand the lesson my husband tried to teach our son.

"YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!" BE PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN! BE PROUD OF OUR PRESIDENT! BE PROUD OF OUR TROOPS!! SUPPORT THEM!!! SUPPORT AMERICA!! SO THAT IN THE FUTURE OUR CHILDREN WILL NEVER HAVE TO CLOSE THEIR BLINDS...."

It pays to be prepared and informed. Knowledge is power!


Great Article.

[top-notch-tek]

Bootlen,

You've been right all along.

I was just joking to get your goat.

I am a republican.

[Dad]

...did you know that before this post was started you less than 300 posts to your credit? :D

You guys are great, thanks for the ride.