R404 or R408?

[jeffcolledge]

I'm installing a new air cooled 5hp outdoor condensong unit with capacity control tomorrow. It was originally a water-cooled 3hp unit, that had R408 dropped into it about 4 years ago. The condenser split and it's in a bad location, so I opted to go with an outdoor unit. It's the original txv, and I was told I could use R404 or R408. I would like some thoughts on which is better, I believe R404 is, but I'm trying to save the expense of buying a bottle, if the R408 will do. I will be using virgin ref as I already have a bottle of R408. Thanks.

[Dad]

Jeff,

If it was an old 502 system then drop 408 in it. If you use 404 you will need to change the oil in the compressor to POE. IF your area has a cold climate be sure to use a head master or a fan cycle control too.

Check here for the refrigerant info and your PT charts

http://www.refrigerants.com/frame.htm


funny, i just checked your profile to see where you are... forget about the cold climate remark... you know what to do :D

[jeffcolledge]

Hey Lusker...thanks for the reply
The compressor comes with POE oil in it already. The unit has all the bells and whistles for low ambient capacity control too. I was just curious what some guys thought was a better refrigerant and why!

[Dad]

Jeff,

Both, unfortunately, are blends. 408 and 404 are widely used by our company. As long as you check your PT charts, do your math on subcooling (on the liquid line) and superheat (at the evap) you will have no fear in using either.

Don’t forget, blends are not full sight glass charge refrigerants. If you have good readings just before off cycle you are good to go.

[mad_max3]

Why use 408-a. 404-a is a standard refrigerant now. If you use 408 you will need to carry around one more jug of refer and another recovery cylinder. Plus I have looked at three different P/T charts for 408-a and they were all different. If I had to replace 502 I would use HP-80. If I was putting in a new compressor I would go 404-a.

Hope this helps.

[2seasons-employed]

JEFF, IF YOU HAVE 408 YES IT WILL WORK, BUT I BELIEVE YOU WILL LOSE THE COMPRESSOR THE ONLY THING THAT WILL WORK WITH THE MINERAL OIL WILL BE HP 81, , THE COST OF IT HAS WWENT DOWN , AND IN COMPARISON TO 408 ITS MORE COST EFFECTIVE, 404-A HAS BOTH OF THEM BEAT COST EFFECTIVE WISE EXCEPT, THAT THE ONLY CONFRONTATION IS CHANGING THE OIL, DEPENDING ON THE AGE OF THE COMPRESSOR......COMPATABILITY WISE..YET THE TXV WILL WORK IN ALL THE 502 REPLACEMENT APP'S OR APPLICATIONS, YOOU CAN USE WHAT YOU WANT SINCE IT'S A NEW APPLICAATION/CONDENSING UNIT, LABEL IT FOR THE NEXT GUY, THINK SERVICE FRIENDLY, AND MAKE LOTS OF MONEY, DOING IT

[hvacmd2002]

R507

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by 2seasons-employed
JEFF, IF YOU HAVE 408 YES IT WILL WORK, BUT I BELIEVE YOU WILL LOSE THE COMPRESSOR THE ONLY THING THAT WILL WORK WITH THE MINERAL OIL WILL BE HP 81, , THE COST OF IT HAS WWENT DOWN , AND IN COMPARISON TO 408 ITS MORE COST EFFECTIVE, 404-A HAS BOTH OF THEM BEAT COST EFFECTIVE WISE EXCEPT, THAT THE ONLY CONFRONTATION IS CHANGING THE OIL, DEPENDING ON THE AGE OF THE COMPRESSOR......COMPATABILITY WISE..YET THE TXV WILL WORK IN ALL THE 502 REPLACEMENT APP'S OR APPLICATIONS, YOOU CAN USE WHAT YOU WANT SINCE IT'S A NEW APPLICAATION/CONDENSING UNIT, LABEL IT FOR THE NEXT GUY, THINK SERVICE FRIENDLY, AND MAKE LOTS OF MONEY, DOING IT

Turn off your capslock.

HP81 is a blend, sold in 13 lb bottles for use only in Manitowoc's out-of-production "B" series ice machine.

You might've meant HP80, which is a 502 replacement that runs a higher discharge temperature than 502.

408 is not only compatible with mineral oil, but is nearly identical on a PT chart to 502. It's disadvantages include higher cost than 404a, and the fact that it's scheduled for phaseout, just like R22. (The latter will make the former climb even higher in the near future.)

404A is an HFC, which is never scheduled for phaseout. It is an excellent choice for new installs, and is not really all that difficult to use during a retrofit such as this.

Neither 404, nor 408, or even HP80 will cause compressor failure. All are approved by the major compressor manufacturers.

Get your facts straight before making statements like:

Posted by 2seasons-employed

IF YOU HAVE 408 YES IT WILL WORK, BUT I BELIEVE YOU WILL LOSE THE COMPRESSOR THE ONLY THING THAT WILL WORK WITH THE MINERAL OIL WILL BE HP 81

That statement is incorrect, uninformed, and irresponsible.

The purpose of this website is to disseminate good advice, not baseless opinions.

Now turn off your capslock.

[gbfromsd]

Most definitely 404a whenever possible.
It's a win-win for everyone, including the environment.

[hvacmd2002]

I'm curious why everyone pushes 404a and not 507. 507 is an azeotrope, has greater capacity, and doesn't fractionate. So why wouldn't you use it?

[2seasons-employed]

Jeff, you dont have to change the txv like you said, and the new compressor should be labeled for the type of oil, 408 is more costly than 404-a, and you'd have to change the oil if it were the old compressor, and the hp-81 would work just fine to recharge the old compressor. but, since you sold them a new system to update their freezer, he he, use the usual 404-a standard, its more cost effective for you and the customer and user friendly to the general contents of a service trucks inventory. i want some of the profit, so why dont you just bill that in too, and if you need to know how to be more billable just ask mad max, he he he!

[2seasons-employed]

hp 81 no oil change for mineral! as for 507 i would have to check! but its not user friendly, Nobody carries it except for you , and thats the only reason , i wouldnt use it, lol! think about it "user Friendly" the golden rule!

[2seasons-employed]

404-a stinks and isnt easy to find a leak, yet it has a high head and breaks down WAX, the blend is all we got that is cost effective than other refrigerants. and is most user friendly by everyone... but dont make laugh with that enviormental win win , he he!

[2seasons-employed]

hey daazzle me with diamonds hp 81 try it u'll like in fact u'll love it, dont ass-ume!! live and learn mr facts, not just flat out attack others without the knowledge to back your beliefs, theres too many techs thaat think they have all the knowledge, and dont he he he

[2seasons-employed]

youre too funny i had read more , dont attach your beliefs to the manufacturer's specifications, lmfao,Neither 404, nor 408, or even HP80 will cause compressor failure. All are approved by the major compressor manufacturers. "all except for hp-81 according to diamond dave and his personal friends at the manufacturing plants, also, dave it doesnt take much more than 13 lbs for a small to medium application depending on the location or length of the line-set, or size of compressor,etc;, also dave read your charts 404-a will phase out...... they all will just like you! yoou are just full of yourself dave and your impolite answer or attack is irresponsible, and shows yoour inexperience! you treat me so bad since the baby didnt come?

[2seasons-employed]

all refrigerants can cause a compressor failure Get Your Facts Straight mr mouth, slugging, changing to a new oil,aafter years of the same use poor oil transfer with certain refrigerants, you know so much you could speed-dial the manufacturers to figure out hp 81 has mineral oil capability, "LET THESE TRUTHS BE HELD SELF-EVIDENT"

[smilies]

http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/hvac/115981_cat_3.jpg

Guys everywhere feel the way you do until they get trained on how to do it right. Including myself.

[jeffcolledge]

Thanks guys...and er ..uh "2 seasons employed" for your responses!
I installed the unit today and used 404, almost a full jug!
It is working great. I'm going to check on it tomorrow just to confirm everything is working to the best of it's capabilities. I'm sure I'll have to add a "winter charge" when it gets cold out though. I recommend this type of unit. It's a Larkin and it comes with an oversized, insulated heated receiver, head master control, ll drier, sight glass, compressor contactor, defrost contactor, evap fan contactor, time clock, time delay relay for anit-short-cyle of the compressor and a nicely labelled terminal strip for feild wiring. You basically pipe in your liquid line and your suction line, some wire and away you go! Oh yeah, it's a scroll compressor too!

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by jerrycoolsaz
http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/hvac/115981_cat_3.jpg

Guys everywhere feel the way you do until they get trained on how to do it right. Including myself.

Same here.

Freakin' guy doesn't even know the name of the gas he's using.:rolleyes:

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by 2seasons-employed
youre too funny i had read more , dont attach your beliefs to the manufacturer's specifications, lmfao,Neither 404, nor 408, or even HP80 will cause compressor failure. All are approved by the major compressor manufacturers. "all except for hp-81 according to diamond dave and his personal friends at the manufacturing plants, also, dave it doesnt take much more than 13 lbs for a small to medium application depending on the location or length of the line-set, or size of compressor,etc;, also dave read your charts 404-a will phase out...... they all will just like you! yoou are just full of yourself dave and your impolite answer or attack is irresponsible, and shows yoour inexperience! you treat me so bad since the baby didnt come?


Well, cupcake, oh you of so much experience, how's about posting up a link that shows when 404A will be phased out?

The EPA tends to disagree.

You've been doing this HOW long?

[condenseddave]

Smallest system I work on holds 13 lbs in the liquid line...

[condenseddave]

See? I can make a bunch of stupid, little, pointless posts, to!

Just like the new guy!

[frozensolid]

Dave, sounds you have something he will never have. Experience, and Personality.

[condenseddave]

Gawrsh, thanks, man.:p

Did I say somewhere that HP81 wouldn't mix with mineral???

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by 2seasons-employed
404-a stinks and isnt easy to find a leak, yet it has a high head and breaks down WAX, the blend is all we got that is cost effective than other refrigerants. and is most user friendly by everyone... but dont make laugh with that enviormental win win , he he!

Another incorrect, uninformed, and irresponsible statement.

You're full of 'em, aren't you, Spanky?

[NedFlanders]

wow this is fun!

This is moving as fast as the Howard Stern forums.

[condenseddave]

Not idiotic opinions.

Please argue with this:

http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/hvac/116111_h96472_1.jpg

Note the HCFC phaseout date.
Note that 404A is NOT an HCFC, but an HFC. If the difference eludes you, please return your EPA certificate to the Cracker Jack Company, as you've obviously obtained it in error in one of their boxes.

Now, take note of these two charts, and dazzle us with your brilliance, and tell us again how much more you know than the individuals and corporations that produce this stuff.:

http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/hvac/116115_h96126_1.jpg
http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/hvac/116116_h96126_2.jpg

Note how the 502 replacements are listed, and their approved applications include terms like "New Equipment", "Commercial Refrigeration", and "Transport Refrigeration".

All of them. OH Wait.---------------------------
Hmmm. Seems HP81 is only listed for Ice mchines and other selected applications. That would be selected by manufacturers, and engineers, not some hack who only buys and uses it because the 13 lb cylinder fits into the '88 Honda Civic that he's using as a service truck because he can't obtain a contractors' license!


Still wanna argue, Gomer, or do you want to learn the right way so you can actually earn a decent, honest living wage. Or maybe you'd prefer to continue screwing over poor, innocent people who are paying you to do the right thing?

Your choice. I sleep very comfortably at night knowing that I go to the extra mile to make sure I do right by my customers, instead of using an expensive, misapplied gas that is on it's way out, just so I don't have to change oil.

You should be ashamed, but, like all other fly-by-night "I don't need ta knwo nuttin' more than I already do" hacks, you're very proud of your ignorance, and your sloth.

All of the above charts, plus LOTS more information can be viewed by anyone at the Dupont SUVA refrigerant homepage (http://www.dupont.com/suva/na/usa/). IF you care to know how this stuff works, if not, keep posting your bull****, and I'll keep shoveling it back at you. I'm good at it. It's what I do.

Edited for correct images...

[Edited by condenseddave on 08-21-2004 at 01:30 AM]

[condenseddave]

Also, for all interested, that last chart has a list of the pressure differences you can expect to see after a retrofit from-to.

Note the increased discharge temps with HP81. Made for a decent ice machine gas, but is bad for refrigeration...

[hvacmd2002]

Originally posted by 2seasons-employed
hp 81 no oil change for mineral! as for 507 i would have to check! but its not user friendly, Nobody carries it except for you , and thats the only reason , i wouldnt use it, lol! think about it "user Friendly" the golden rule!

Service friendly? I don't give a rats ass what the next guy is using. I carry both 404 and 507, but on new installs, I use 507. It gives me the warm fuzzy feeling of 502. I don't have to think about glide and bubble/dew point

[lowtemp]

Originally posted by lusker
Jeff,

Both, unfortunately, are blends. 408 and 404 are widely used by our company. As long as you check your PT charts, do your math on subcooling (on the liquid line) and superheat (at the evap) you will have no fear in using either.

Don’t forget, blends are not full sight glass charge refrigerants. If you have good readings just before off cycle you are good to go.
i dont agree that the refrigerant is not a full sight glass refrigerant. I have always charge to full sight glass (if system has a receiver) with no capacity problems or superheat adjustments.

[Dad]

Originally posted by lowtemp

Originally posted by lusker
Jeff,

Both, unfortunately, are blends. 408 and 404 are widely used by our company. As long as you check your PT charts, do your math on subcooling (on the liquid line) and superheat (at the evap) you will have no fear in using either.

Don’t forget, blends are not full sight glass charge refrigerants. If you have good readings just before off cycle you are good to go.
i dont agree that the refrigerant is not a full sight glass refrigerant. I have always charge to full sight glass (if system has a receiver) with no capacity problems or superheat adjustments.

I agree with you but only to a certain point.

I will explain, I teach my guys not to overcharge by the term "blend". If it is a blend then keep room in the sight glass at warm start up and close to off cycle. When using a TXV this is a given as the valve pinches it will back up liquid in the sight glass. If the system works just fine without completely filling the sight glass, which is 90% of the time, they are good to go or free to finish checking the system. Only after checking the system (subcooling and superheat) are they allowed to fill the sight glass and only if they have to.

I am sure you will agree… when you go behind other companies you find overcharge situations. You will not find that with my company. Also my guys work with many cap tube systems and charge to subcooling after doing compressor and/or cap tube change outs. Most of these boxes are in little to no fresh air condenser air situations.

So the bottom line is, I agree that you can fill the sight glass with a blend but don't unless you really need to.

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by NedFlanders
wow this is fun!

This is moving as fast as the Howard Stern forums.

:D

Where's the 2 season expert???

[Dad]

LOL.... What a trip!



http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/mica/monkey1.gif

Oh yeah, I will get over the cartoons soon. Just going through a phase. :)

[wannafreeze]

Somehow I wanna be involved in this one.
ya ya yoo yoo he he boooo.

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by altan
Somehow I wanna be involved in this one.


Actually, you really DON't wanna be involved in this.

It's an unfortunate type of thread that degrades into this sort of thing. It happens periodically when someone arrives here and tries to convince everyone else in the world (especially themselves, I suppose.) that their hackery is the only acceptable way to repair equipment. When they find out that they are wrong, they resort to personally attacking others. Often these squirrels attempt to attack bull elephants, who have little to no patience for this type of thing. Then, the squirrel runs and hides, lest he be trampled by the herd of other bull elephants that follow the first one.

I don't enjoy this, really. I use humor to stop myself from telling this individual what's REALLY on my mind. (YES. I DID hold back.)

This site has been proudly fighting propaganda and misinformation about the heat transfer trade for over four years now, and should continue to do so, rather than allow one individual to come in and start making incorrect statements to someone who is really seeking out the right answers to repair or maintain equipment in the best interest of the equipment owner and other interested parties.

My apologies to "Jeffcollege" for my part in this atrocity, but guys like this "2-Seasons_employed" character should really get some training and experience before making statements like the ones on the first page of this thread. A first year apprentice knows that refrigerants don't break down into waxes in systems. He told another guy that 507 isn't a "user-friendly" refrigerant! This sort of thing has no place where professionals are involved.

So, no, altan, you don't want any part of this.

Just keep asking your questions, and answer a few if you're 100% sure your answer is correct, and can help someone else, but avoid this **** like the plague, if at all possible.

It's anti-productive, and, I'm certain, thoroughly confusing to top it all off.

[jeffcolledge]

hey Dave..
I appreciate your insight on this subject. No worries though, I never once took anything he said to be factual. You're obviously well trained in this trade and I think everyone who reads this thread can see that. I must admit, it's been kinda funny reading your "new ass cutting" posts, they were well descriptive and thought out...good for you!
Take care. Jeff

[condenseddave]

I'm still waiting for the 2-seasons-doesn't-get-it dufus to respond to this thread.

He keeps sniping at others, but seems to be hiding from the truth here.

Hard to hide a hack, and the nuts that come here generally expose themselves as such pretty quickly.
http://ww2.imagewiz.net/images/hvac/116941_nut_anim.gif

[r507]

I'm curious why everyone pushes 404a and not 507. 507 is an azeotrope, has greater capacity, and doesn't fractionate. So why wouldn't you use it?

I'm on your side (obvious, huh?) and have been using this username since the creation of these refrigerants in the early 90's.
At the time Allied Signal (r507) and Dupont (r404) went to war..... and Dupont essentially won.

Oh well.

:argue: