Baptism

[kim]

Baptism is a simplification of the Jewish purification rituals. It is a SYMBLE of forgiveness of sins. The ritual is not important. The forgiveness of our sins is the important part. Jesus told us how he felt about rituals in the story of the good Samaritian. The priest would not help his fellow man because he had been ritually cleansed. The ritual stood in his way of doing the right thing.

Don't get too hung up on rituals. Everytime you say the Lord's Prayer, you are in effect being baptised

[2story]

I have read several of your recent post, and I do not agree with you. I always am interested in what people believe and why. What church best reflects your beliefs.

[James 3528]

Originally posted by kim
Baptism is a simplification of the Jewish purification rituals. It is a SYMBLE of forgiveness of sins. The ritual is not important. The forgiveness of our sins is the important part. Jesus told us how he felt about rituals in the story of the good Samaritian. The priest would not help his fellow man because he had been ritually cleansed. The ritual stood in his way of doing the right thing.

Don't get too hung up on rituals. Everytime you say the Lord's Prayer, you are in effect being baptised

Saying the "Lords Prayer" is a ritual, ya Goof!

[kim]

Originally posted by 2story
I have read several of your recent post, and I do not agree with you. I always am interested in what people believe and why. What church best reflects your beliefs.

I attend the Unity church.

What part do you not agree with? Baptism is a ritual or it is very very simalar to a more complex jewish ritual with the same purpose. Or do you agree that the Rabbi would have done the right thing for his countryman, if he did not hold the ritual in too high regard?

Do you not beleive that baptism is forgiveness of sins?
Do not beleive asking God for forgiveness is the same thing as being forgiven?

[kim]

Originally posted by James 3528
Saying the "Lords Prayer" is a ritual, ya Goof! [/B]

How can a prayer be a ritual? Rituals are usually done with an audience, prayer are usually done in private (unless you are a Pharisee-type). I know the catholics have lots of rituals, but do they include any prayers?

Forgot. It is James. He is going to read my post over and over again until he can twist it into something he can disagree with.

[bootlen]

Baptism is not "forgiveness of sins." Baptism is just a "picture" of what Christ did for believers. It's kinda like a wedding ring. Wearing a wedding ring does not make you married. Not wearing a wedding ring does not make you not married. It is just a symbol. Baptism is the same way. It is a picture of your death, burial, and resurrection with Christ...being buried by water to rising up out of the water. Just a symbol...not necessary for forgiveness or for salvation. Ohterwise, Christ lied to the thief on the cross.

[2story]

I believe Baptism to be an ordinance, as is communion. It is something that we have been commanded to do in obedience to God. Communion done for the purpose of rememberance. Baptism done for the purpose of identification, with Christ, Bootlen stated what it picture's. It's roots are in the New Testament a time of transition from the Old Mosaic system, Christ fulfills the Law and sets into place A New Testament. There are a lot of groups that try to make NT. pratice's have a OT root/ counterpart/mystical connection. I have a problem with that, OT and NT stand together, If God links ot and nt together and explains which he has done, great thank you LORD, but if someone else tries to make that link I get a little wary.
Yes I can be an unbaptised christian,but I can not be an obedient one. Baptism throughout the NT happen to those who have been converted, often within moments of baptism.

that my take, as I study

[Edited by 2story on 08-17-2004 at 12:28 PM]

[bootlen]

Originally posted by 2story
I believe Baptism to be an ordinance, as is communion. It is something that we have been commanded to do in obedience to God. Communion done for the purpose of rememberance. Baptism done for the purpose of identification, with Christ, Bootlen stated what it picture's. It's roots are in the New Testament a time of transition from the Old Mosaic system, Christ fulfills the Law and sets into place A New Testament. There are a lot of groups that try to make NT. pratice's have a OT root/ counterpart/mystical connection. I have a problem with that, OT and NT stand together, If God links ot and nt together and explains which he has done, great thank you LORD, but if someone else tries to make that link I get a little wary.
Yes I can be an unbaptised christian,but I can not be an obedient one. Baptism throughout the NT happen to those who have been converted, often within moments of baptism.

that my take, as I study

[Edited by 2story on 08-17-2004 at 12:28 PM]

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Yes, 2story, I agree with you. It is an ordinance and those who are baptised are being obedient...those who don't but are able to are disobedient. But, again, baptism is not a prequisite for salvation. The only requirement for salvation is to receive the gift...to believe on Christ as Savior.

[kim]

When you are born again through baptism, what is happening? I thought the born again people beleived that baptism removed original sin.
Removing sin is forgiveness of sin, right?

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by kim

Do you not beleive that baptism is forgiveness of sins?
Do not beleive asking God for forgiveness is the same thing as being forgiven? [/B]

I have read a lot of post from you guys on religion, and listen and try to understand.

I am just curious...my understanding is the only way to be saved is to accept Jesus, what you do in your life does not determine your place in heaven. Following the ten commandments only helps your life while on Earth.

So why bother to get baptised? For that matter why bother going to church?

Seriously...why do people pray for forgiveness if it doesnt matter if you sinned or not?

Also, why do people pray for people that have passed on? Doesnt matter does it? I mean once they passed they passed right?

Ahhh... just tossing things around in my simple head...

[woods mech]

KIM,
how do you handle what Jesus taught when he said we must be born of the water and the spirit?

[kim]

HVAC, would it bother you if you cheated on your wife and she just cried all the time? (If not you are cold hearted)
Shouldn't it bother you more if you cheated on God and hurt his feelings?
Would you not bend over backwards to ask your wife's forgiveness?
Shouldn't you ask for God's forgiveness too.

[kim]

Originally posted by woods mech
KIM,
how do you handle what Jesus taught when he said we must be born of the water and the spirit?

I thought I made that clear a long time ago. Jesus preached forgiveness, over and over and over and over again.

Being born of the water, baptism, is a ritual to signify the removal of your sins.
Being born of the spirit is allowing God into your heart so you can forgive others.

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by kim
HVAC, would it bother you if you cheated on your wife and she just cried all the time? (If not you are cold hearted)
Shouldn't it bother you more if you cheated on God and hurt his feelings?
Would you not bend over backwards to ask your wife's forgiveness?
Shouldn't you ask for God's forgiveness too.

Very good example...interesting...you have me thinking...

[2story]

Kim

I can only speak for myself as a "born agian" person. Christ paid for my sin on the cross, baptism does not atone for my sin.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by woods mech
KIM,
how do you handle what Jesus taught when he said we must be born of the water and the spirit?

================================================== =========

We are born of water when mom gives birth. You float around in a water-filled sac during gestation. To be saved, we must also be born spiritually as well.

If you are not born physically, you cannot possibly qualify to be saved. Then, when your each the age of accountability (there's a can of worms newly opened), you must receive Christ, this being your second birth.

(Definition-
age of accountability: the indefinite age at which one is able to discern the difference between right and wrong.

No it's not found in Scripture but the concept is there...just like "trinity", rapture", and others.)

[jlkelly]

Not to be rude, but i have payed close attention to the unity church and maybe I'm confused but the unity church has a funny view of things. We ought not get caught up in ritururals and such. What is most important are the essentials of christianity. Christ was born of a virgin, lived a sinless life, was the son of God, crucified for our sins, died, and resurected. The ONLY WAY TO GOD! I'm not saying the other things aren't important but they are meaningless without the the facts of Christ life, death, and resurection. If there was no Christ then the cross would be meaningless ,baptism a silly way to get wet, communion a very small meal, prayer (talking to oneself).
For those who don't believe these things or in God at all I pray that you examine your motives in life, Think about what good and evil is, is there right and wrong, are there absolutes in life. The funny thing is a non believer refuses to examine oneself, you can't think that you have ever made a mistake, said or done anything wrong, lied, stole, cheated, unless you knew what they were. The real mystery is how did that get into your head, that these things are wrong? Other wise crime in society does not exist. Evolution is an escape from personal accouniability. All of you techs out there should know the laws of thermodynamics, entropy, and such. If you cannot create or destroy any thing but meerely convert it from one thing to another then how did it get there. Entropy, everything is in a continual state of decay. We install a furnace and yet it has to be fixed once in a while, it doesn't self improve. The materials that came from the earth to make the furnace were just there. We didn't make them, we manipulated them into a furnace. The funny thing is it doesn't get better looking as the days go by it rusts and decays. You see this is our lives in a nut shell, that is why the life of Christ is essential in our lives.

[bootlen]

Very well said, jl. Agreed 100%.

Not that my agreement is necessary for it to be true. It is true of its own accord...of its own truthfulness.

[woods mech]

I believe Christ was our example and we who profess to follow him should try and follow his example as well as we can. No I am not saying we should be crucified like he was so don't go there. I realize also that we are not perfect like he is but we should continue to strive to be righteous like he is and ask for forgiveness when we fall short. His grace is sufficient for us.
He was baptised even though he was sinless, he kept the sabbath as his custom was. So I will try my best to be like him and when I fall short I know I can ask for forgiveness and get a new start.
Baptism is important because it is a public profession of faith and it symbolizes the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. If it didn't matter then the apostles would not have been given the great commission by Christ to "go ye therefore and teach all nations baptizing them in the name of the father, son and holy spirit." Mat 28:19.
That just what I believe.

[bootlen]

No argument with that, Woody. At the same time, it's like you said, "Jesus was baptised." If baptism is for the forgiveness of sins or is necessary for salvation, why would Jesus be baptised? He was sinless and not in need of salvation. Like you said, baptism is symbolic...not a prerequisite for salvation or forgiveness. It's something we do when we realize the price He paid for us...we want to emulate Him, do what He did on earth.

He wants us to be baptised as an open, public sign making it clear to all that we are His. He commands us to tell all we see about Him. Baptism is one of those ways to tell all. Like wearing a wedding ring says, "I am married."

[kim]

So baptism is part of the "new covenent"?

[2story]

YUP

[woods mech]

I believe that if you intend to be baptized and for some reason are unable to be and you die you will be saved. However I also believe that those professing to be christians should be baptized in order to follow Christ's example. As Christ said "a servant is no better than his master.." so in my mind I am convinced baptism is an important part of being a Christian just as is the communion or Lord's supper as some call it. We also practice footwashing too before the communion service.
Also I believe the baptism should be full emersion as the greek word baptismo means "to emerse". Bottom line is Christ did it and the apostles did it and practiced it so I believe we should do it too. No, it is not a prerequesite to salvation but onced you are saved you should be baptized.

[Paul R. Burkett]

I know that some people say that blindly following any one is foolish, but there are some things that are very basic and do not need a lot of theorizing.If He got baptized and said go baptize people,that is what you do. Not sprinkled with water or rose petals or anything else. The thief on the cross? Jesus knew that according to Jewish law that they could not be left on the crosses till they died, it was a high holy day,Pass over, so their legs were going to be broken and they would then not be able to stand and breath.They were about to die, so Jesus, knowing the one mans heart (Luke 23:39-43) answered his request. He didn't say, "sorry, you need to be baptized", there wasn't time.
Jesus did say, "if you love me, you will keep my commandments", or basically, you will do as I say.
As far as praying to the saints, easy to solve that one, 1-Timothy 2:5, a mediator is the person that pleads your case, like a lawyer does, and since this letter to Timothy was written by Paul, I think he knew what he was talking about. God is omnicient(every where, all of the time),Jesus knew this and so He said to pray to God (our Father, etc.)he can hear you.Jesus said, "when you pray, ask it in my name, and the Father who is in heaven will answer you. Not everything will be this simple , but I think you know that.

[Green Mountain]

Okay the Catholic view point.

There are 7 Sacraments which the Catholic Church believe is the center of our worship. They were instituded by Jesus Christ and can not be changed or added to or taken away.

There are many man made sacramentals, within the Catholic Church, that are intended as helps in meditation or prayer. These can be things or rituals. Statues, rosary beeds, blessing with holy water, burning incense etc.etc.etc. Personally, I think all these sacramentals get people too confused about our church. Since they are man made there is no inpropiety in doing away with them either. However the 7 Sacraments established by Jesus Christ are stone and inflexible.

Baptism is one of the 7 Sacraments. It was established by Jesus Christ to remove the orginial sin that is on every Human when they are born. That sin was placed on us by God the Father for the sins of our parents-Adam and Eve.

In order to be brought into the Church of Jesus Christ you must be Baptized so that the orginial sin is forgiven. You can only be baptized once. If someone comes into our Church from another religion and he was Baptized by lets say a Lutheran minister, then that person would not be "re-Baptized" when he joined the Catholic Church.

Jesus said that unless you be born again of water you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This is why there is a Catholic Church rule that states, in case of an emergency any baptized Christian can administer the Sacrament of Baptism to any person wishing to be Baptized and is in danger of death.



[Edited by benncool on 08-18-2004 at 01:51 PM]

[kim]

One point please sir,
God did not put sin on us. We did that all by ourselves. God is trying to put that behind us, so we can get on with his plan.

[bootlen]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by benncool
[B]Okay the Catholic view point.

There are 7 Sacraments which the Catholic Church believe is the center of our worship. They were instituded by Jesus Christ and can not be changed or added to or taken away.

There are many man made sacramentals, within the Catholic Church, that are intended as helps in meditation or prayer. These can be things or rituals. Statues, rosary beeds, blessing with holy water, burning incense etc.etc.etc. Personally, I think all these sacramentals get people too confused about our church. Since they are man made there is no inpropiety in doing away with them either. However the 7 Sacraments established by Jesus Christ are stone and inflexible.

Baptism is one of the 7 Sacraments. It was established by Jesus Christ to remove the orginial sin that is on every Human when they are born. That sin was placed on us by God the Father for the sins of our parents-Adam and Eve.

In order to be brought into the Church of Jesus Christ you must be Baptized so that the orginial sin is forgiven. You can only be baptized once. If someone comes into our Church from another religion and he was Baptized by lets say a Lutheran minister, then that person would not be "re-Baptized" when he joined the Catholic Church.

Jesus said that unless you be born again of water you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This is why there is a Catholic Church rule that states, in case of an emergency any baptized Christian can administer the Sacrament of Baptism to any person wishing to be Baptized and is in danger of death.

[Edited by bootlen on 08-18-2004 at 05:44 PM]

[bootlen]

Originally posted by bootlen
[QUOTE]Originally posted by benncool
[B]Okay the Catholic view point.

There are 7 Sacraments which the Catholic Church believe is the center of our worship. They were instituded by Jesus Christ and can not be changed or added to or taken away.

There are many man made sacramentals, within the Catholic Church, that are intended as helps in meditation or prayer. These can be things or rituals. Statues, rosary beeds, blessing with holy water, burning incense etc.etc.etc. Personally, I think all these sacramentals get people too confused about our church. Since they are man made there is no inpropiety in doing away with them either. However the 7 Sacraments established by Jesus Christ are stone and inflexible.

Baptism is one of the 7 Sacraments. It was established by Jesus Christ to remove the orginial sin that is on every Human when they are born. That sin was placed on us by God the Father for the sins of our parents-Adam and Eve.

In order to be brought into the Church of Jesus Christ you must be Baptized so that the orginial sin is forgiven. You can only be baptized once. If someone comes into our Church from another religion and he was Baptized by lets say a Lutheran minister, then that person would not be "re-Baptized" when he joined the Catholic Church.

Jesus said that unless you be born again of water you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. This is why there is a Catholic Church rule that states, in case of an emergency any baptized Christian can administer the Sacrament of Baptism to any person wishing to be Baptized and is in danger of death.

[Edited by bootlen on 08-18-2004 at 05:44 PM]



Oh man! I had a whole diatribe here in response to this and it fell off. I think I hit the wrong key or something. Get back to ya later, Bennie. Stay cool!

[Paul R. Burkett]

I have been looking all throught the new and old testement, and I can not find referance to origional sin. What verses of scripture, not an interpretation, is it found in?

[bootlen]

Originally posted by Paul R. Burkett
I have been looking all throught the new and old testement, and I can not find referance to origional sin. What verses of scripture, not an interpretation, is it found in?

================================================== ==========

You won't find "original sin" there. Only the concept. Neither will you find "trinity"...just the concept. And several other "....." words but their concept is obvious, more so in Scripture than in interpretation. But you can't pull a concept out of just one or two verses. You have to read and understand all surrounding text.


Text outside of context is pretext.