sulphur dioxide help

[gatyamnam]

hi guys i need some help on safe and legal removal of a compressor containing sulphur dioxide and possible retrofit info for a refrigeration restoration. i am a appliance technician and have universal cfc license but my refrigeration experience is limited to r12 replacements and 134a that is used in all new units. i have some old books on refrigeration repair but no info on sulphur other than it's NASTY any help would be appreciated

[icemeister]

There's nothing in the EPA regs that I'm aware of that would prohibit you from just venting it off like my Dad did forty years ago. Just run some 1/4" tubing to the outside and let it go slowly.......downwind. ;)

I would follow up with a good nitrogen purge through the system and out the vent tubing. Then you will hardly notice the sulfur at all. Your downwind neighbors won't be pleased, but hey. :D

[Andy Schoen]

I'd consider dynamite if the unit is not located in a residential area... :D

[gatyamnam]

thanks for info icemeister after flush could i just recharge with 134a and watch frost patttern, sorry not after flush but evac, and secondly if compressor needs changing how would i size it i have no btu or hp info sorry for so many questions ,but most of my work on refrigeration is warranty very few people opt to repair out of warranty so it is usally original parts on everything i don't pretend to be skilled enough to do my own engineering

[icemeister]

You may well be in line to win the prize for being the first to successfully convert an SO2 system to R134A. :D

What kind of a system is this? All the sulfur dioxide units I remember Pop working on were old belt-drive Frigidaires and stuff like that. You have to be looking at R12, an R12 interim blend or R134A. The R134A scares me in this case mainly because of the oil compatibility issues.

Without ant other info and assuming it's a refrigerator with a freezer section, I'd probably go with MP66 as the refrigerant of choice. If it's a straight refrigerator go with MP39. I'm pretty sure the old SO2 systems had mineral oil in them so the oil shouldn't be as much of a problem than if you went to R134A.

As far as the charging goes. The old timers just went by the frost line on the suction piping. Once you're close to temperature the frost line should be just outside of the box. Having patience is a prerequisite

[Edited by icemeister on 07-29-2004 at 09:31 PM]

[johnl45]

SO2 is classified as a B2 refrigerant, be extra careful.

[R12rules]

Those wusses today who clamor about R12 being such a hazard.... they should have been around when SO2 was the defacto standard.

Not a day went by that some plant or animal wasnt hurt or dead from the use of SO2.

And that's NOT saying they was anything wrong with it as a refrigerant!
It's just stating a fact!
Mechanical refrigeration is not a luxury, it is a necessity! And classifying it as a necessity places it beyond what some idiots today claim should be handled thru much regulation and with much red tape.


I've had my oxygen replaced by freon in the air.
I've had more than my fair share of overheated and flaming refrigerant, (fosgene gas).
I've had lines break in close proximity to my body parts.

And none of that stuff even comes close to the dangers faced every single day when a technician handled SO2.


When I said plants died, animals too ... it wasnt a joke. They really did.


Odd isnt it ... how a refrigerant so dealy, so dangerous, so .... difficult to handle, was placed into nearly every home in America without regard to the safety of the family ...and yet a refrigerant so safe as Du Pont's "Freon R-12" .... has been removed and in it's stead ... we have "an accident waiting to happen" with the new blends!?
Isn't that odd?



By the way, that old fridge, once retrofitted for a modern refrigerant, will be worth some good money.
The "retro look" is very much in demand today.

[gatyamnam]

thanks for the help guys i'll stay away from the 134 and go with something that is comptabile with mineral oil and be careful with the sulphur the unit is a 1940's single door firgidaire with small evaporator with door for storage of few items and ice trays "this is considerd the freezer" rest of box maintains fresh food temps.

[baub]

Since it's a freezer/cooler, go with MP-66. Assuming it has the origional belt drive compressor, you should have a plug you can pull to change the oil. After 60+ yrears, its about due!

With MP-66 you should use Alka-Benzene oil, but with a compressor that old, I don't know if there would be any compatability issues. Thats a wet seal on the shaft. Icemeister, any thoughts?

[icemeister]

I would suggest staying with the mineral oil primarily because the AB oil may attack the older seals. There were service bulletins from Copeland (I think) that said seal materials made prior to 1978 are not compatible with AB oils. I don't think there's a ready supply of updated shaft seals for a 1940's Frigidaire pump, so why chance it?

I've had good results running small low temp stuff with MP66 and its original mineral oil.....so long as everything is downhill from the evaporator. ;)

[hvacbear]

“It is obtained by burning sulfur in air. It is not considered a safe refrigerant especially in quantities. It combines with water to form sulphurous and sulphuric acid which is corrosive to metal and has an adverse effect on almost anyting it comes in contact with.”

1944 Audels Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Guide for Engineers,Servicemen, Shopmen &Users

It was also noted that it operated in a vacuum and did not mix well with oil.

This book has greatly enhanced my HVAC/R knowledge try to get one at a used bookstore you will not regret it. These books were very well written.

[sonc]

Originally posted by Andy Schoen
I'd consider dynamite if the unit is not located in a residential area... :D

LOL...that's probably the best way..

[refer dude 2479]

Originally posted by gatyamnam
thanks for the help guys i'll stay away from the 134 and go with something that is comptabile with mineral oil and be careful with the sulphur the unit is a 1940's single door firgidaire with small evaporator with door for storage of few items and ice trays "this is considerd the freezer" rest of box maintains fresh food temps.

I would try to sell them something new and then do them the favor of taking the old antique off thier hands without any handling fee. This sounds like a real jewel. Worth fixing up and placing in you game room or family room. Real eye candy if you know what I mean.

At least to the collector of things old and outdated, of which I am one.

[refer dude 2479]

Originally posted by hvacbear
“It is obtained by burning sulfur in air. It is not considered a safe refrigerant especially in quantities. It combines with water to form sulphurous and sulphuric acid which is corrosive to metal and has an adverse effect on almost anyting it comes in contact with.”

1944 Audels Refrigeration and Air Conditioning Guide for Engineers,Servicemen, Shopmen &Users

It was also noted that it operated in a vacuum and did not mix well with oil.

This book has greatly enhanced my HVAC/R knowledge try to get one at a used bookstore you will not regret it. These books were very well written.


Audels was the tech bible for almost any trade in the first half of the 1900's. The are great I have several ranging from refrigeration to electricity to steam boiler and power systems. Great to see what our forfathers went through.

[NormChris]

Some jobs are worth walking away from. This is one of them. I had just such a call years ago in San Francisco. I called the fire department and asked them what they recommended. They could not give me an answer. I cleared out and never went back. I suggest you do the same.

[R12rules]

If you take Norm's advice, then sell it to me. I'll come and pick it up.

Retrofitting an antique is NOT for everyone.

[hvacbear]

I think Iwould let them know they got thier money's worth and let them get a new one!

[rennsport]

Originally posted by R12rules
If you take Norm's advice, then sell it to me. I'll come and pick it up.

Retrofitting an antique is NOT for everyone.

Why retrofit it? If it is working fine as is, why not use it? There is a company in Clayton GA thate restores these units (they specialize in GE monitor tops) and if the system is working they leave it as is. These things have been running for 70 years. What is the problem? The great thing about SO2 is if you smell it, you know to vacate the house.

[refer dude 2479]

Originally posted by rennsport

Originally posted by R12rules
If you take Norm's advice, then sell it to me. I'll come and pick it up.

Retrofitting an antique is NOT for everyone.

Why retrofit it? If it is working fine as is, why not use it? There is a company in Clayton GA thate restores these units (they specialize in GE monitor tops) and if the system is working they leave it as is. These things have been running for 70 years. What is the problem? The great thing about SO2 is if you smell it, you know to vacate the house.

The same can be said for working in an ammonia facility too, but I would not recommend it at home.

[coolclassics]

I know it was a long time ago but I was wondering how you made out with the evacuation and conversion. I've done a few of them. Gord

[ct2]

I have the oppertunity to get an old refer, like a late 50's early 60's GE
will it have sulfer or r12

[coolclassics]

You can bet on the fact that it will have R12 in it. GE stopped using S02 in 1941. The unit should be marked with the refrigerant type, usually on a tag attached to the compessor or on the cabnet. GE called it either R12,F12, or
the chemical name: Dichlorodifluoromethane.

[Wild Leg]

Originally posted by ct2
I have the oppertunity to get an old refer, like a late 50's early 60's GE
will it have sulfer or r12

It will have r12.

That was about the time GE introduced the first "square corner" model. Before then, they were rounded or sloped.

That old box could have an "armadillo" or maybe a "coffin" compressor, named for the general appearance of the compressor housing.
The coffins were famous for a short frost pattern that made it look like it was a little low on refrigerant.
It was actually a weak compressor.

Some were 4 wire compressors, using a potential relay, and back EMF from an auxillary winding & terminal.

If it is one of those, the terminals will be soldered to the compressor.
Terminal designation ASCR from left to right.

We used to install a Delco hotwire relay, and ignore the "A" terminal.
I suppose you could use a 3-in-one nowadays.

Useless information, for the most part, but I thought it was important way back when... :D