What's fair?

[arc8]

The Robinhood mentality.

Is it fair to take from the rich and give to the poor?
Or is there a limit that can be made for the rich? and if so, then there would have to be a minimum for the poor? Who says or determines justice? the majority?
Where in the bible does it say take from the rich and give it to the poor?

Why do people believe this passionately, the Robinhood mentality.

So, What is Fair?

[andserco]

The people "with" thinks its unfair,the people "without" thinks its fair.

[bootlen]

I'm "without" (comparatively speaking)and I think it's unfair.

[kim]

You can't redistribute wealth. At the same time, we can't let the people with all the money and power make all the rules. Neither way is fair.
The rules of the government are supposed to be for the well being of the people and the nation that elected that government.

Even though rich people can send their kids to private schools, the government has an obligation to collect money to pay for the education of all people in the country. It is kind of like medicine in England. You can get tax payer supported healthcare, but you do not have to use it. If you pay for extra medical care you do not get a discount on what you freely turned down.

The rich private school people are getting something for their education dollars too. They get to support the next generation of this country great enough to allow them to earn their level of success. Those people will be the employees and costumer you need in the future.

When the government starts making rules that encourage its citizens to not get their part, the rules need to be changed. There are no entitlements except life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. All citizen should be equal in their access to those entitlements.

[DeltaT]

The irony of this argument is that if we all pool our money together and evenly distribute it among the rich and poor, it's just a matter of time before the rich have it again and the poor are poor again.

Not to say that some might make a positive change but money has more to do with a state of mind then possession.

[Irascible]

This statement
"The government has an obligation to collect money to pay for the education of all people in the country."

at least seems to contradict this statement,
"There are no entitlements except life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness."

unless you wish to clarify to the contrary.

If the government is obligated to do something, it is an entitlement. Since our constitution specifically states that the federal government will do nothing except that which it specifically allows, the federal subsidizing of public schooling is in fact an unconstitutional entitlement. There is no specific allowance in our constitution for federal support of public schools. Looking at the mess that it's in, it's no wonder. Nor is their anything in the Constitution that says those b@st@rds can take a third of my check and give it to any Joe Blow on the street, be they crack addicts or poor pathetic and ever so pitiable single moms. Every last damn one of them need to make their own way in life or get charity from those willing to give it. That use to be what the church in this country did until the feds usurped that power.

Don't forget that there are big differences between state and federal obligations. The states may fund public schools and crack addicts to their heart's content so long as their state constitutions allow it. The feds have their hands in way too much. It's not a good thing.

[kim]

Education is in the government's best interest. An educated society is a more prosperous society.

[Irascible]

Originally posted by kim
Education is in the government's best interest. An educated society is a more prosperous society.
True but irrelevant to what the constitution says. A society not burdened with illegal taxation and redistribution of wealth as detemined by a ruling class of buereacrats is also a more prosperous society. The difference is that the former has no provision for it in the constitution as where the latter does.

Utopian visions of what a society should be have never been implemented through government anywhere in any time. All attempts at it have resulted in despotic rulers and a tyrannized people. The closest thing to utopia than has ever been achieved was right here. It happened by means of a moral and free people living their lives the best they could. The people of this country is what made it great. If government could do it, then communist countries around the world would have.

[bb]

In TX we have the "Robinhood Plan". It has driven up property taxes and isn't working as intended.

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040413-040956-8489r.htm

http://tspweb02.tsp.utexas.edu/webarchive/07-18-01/2001071804_s03_Rich.html

[arc8]

The people "with" thinks its unfair,the people "without" thinks its fair.

I'm "without" (comparatively speaking)and I think it's unfair.

But why do people think it is unfair?
Why do the democrat seemed to harp on this topic?

You can't redistribute wealth. At the same time, we can't let the people with all the money and power make all the rules. Neither way is fair.

Should we even redistribute wealth? I don't see why it is fair to do that!
Yes there is power in wealth. But is it moral to take away from them that was earned by them?

The rules of the government are supposed to be for the well being of the people and the nation that elected that government.

So everyone should be equal. Where are you going with that thought? equality for all?

If the government is obligated to do something, it is an entitlement. Since our constitution specifically states that the federal government will do nothing except that which it specifically allows, the federal subsidizing of public schooling is in fact an unconstitutional entitlement. There is no specific allowance in our constitution for federal support of public schools.

You know, I still can't find that in the Constitution either.

Don't forget that there are big differences between state and federal obligations.

Let the state control their school system! Then there is no equality, so they say. There's no equality now, for pete's sakes.

Education is in the government's best interest. An educated society is a more prosperous society.

This is true up to a point.

Did you know that the greatest scientist who ever lived, Issac Newton, was next to the lowest in his class, and failed geometry because he did not do his work according to the book?

Did you know that six year old Edison came home with a note from his teacher saying he was "too stupid to learn"?

John Adams remarked in 1765: "A native of America who cannot read or write is as rare as a comet or an earthquake."

In the 1840 censes, about 90 percent of white adults were listed as literate.

There's something wrong with our educational system. I know one thing, it's not getting better.

[Edited by arc8 on 07-28-2004 at 05:04 PM]

[kim]

The federal government took an active part in education starting with the lousianna purchase. It is not in the counstitution.
Life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness is not in the constitution either. Its in the declaration of independance.


It will take NO NEW money to get an education system. The government is already giving that money away to people who do nothing to earn it.

The origianal poster wanted to know what is fair.
Give everybody an oppertunity for an education and give them an opportunity to vote. That is fair and equal. It will go a long way to equalizing wealth as well.

[Irascible]

Opportunity to an education sounds fine. You just haven't clarified who you think should pay for it. The government doesn't pay for anything. They take it from my pocketbook. Is that fair? The Constitution says NO in as much as it's supposed to disallow the federal government from doing that. State consitutions? They're allowed a lot more flexibility.

As far as history goes, no argument. The federal government has been usurping power that it has no right to for a VERY long time.

[rob10]

Every person should be responsible for their own education. The educational system in this country is no more than welfare. The more money we pour into it the worse it becomes. Tax credits for private education would be much more fair.

[infwsdm]

Hey man, if I have to live by thier rules they can pay my education and health care costs!!

[arc8]

Hey man, if I have to live by thier rules they can pay my education and health care costs!!

Hey, I don't have enough money to pay for your education and health care costs! I have a hard time paying for my own. Let the rich pay for everything, their rich, it's only fair! There goes socialism and of course, communism, maybe it's a good thing!

[cehs]

If all the money were distributed evenly and everybody had the same amount, they claim that in one year the rich would be rich again and the poor would be poor again.
1. Where did the rich get their money?
2. How did the rich get their money?
3. Who allowed the rich to become rich?

Answers

1. The rich got their money from the poor.
2. They provided a product or service that the poor wanted/needed.
3. The poor allowed the rich to take the money.

Wealth is a matter of the mind. It is how you think about money that makes you rich or poor.
YES, I know that talent and skill makes some difference, but a poor person gets a dollor and wonders how they can spend it. A rich person gets a dollor and wonders how they can make it grow...

As for education, it is NOT a mandate for the FEDERAL government to provide education, it is for the individual states to do so.
Also education is a privilage not a right, which is the same for many other things like driving.
A right is something we cannot do without. Life....
A privilage is something we can do without but may be esential to modern living...


[Edited by cehs on 07-29-2004 at 07:55 AM]

[bootlen]

If all the money in the world were divided evenly, we would all be poverty-stricken.

[arc8]

Mr. Hypotheticly,

Also education is a privilage not a right

Like healthcare, equal pay, and fast food restuarants!
Boy, your in trouble from the left. It's not fair to society to not have these.

So, what is fair? Why is or isn't this fair?

The origianal poster wanted to know what is fair.
Give everybody an oppertunity for an education and give them an opportunity to vote. That is fair and equal. It will go a long way to equalizing wealth as well.

Is being equal fair?
What is equalilty? can it even be equal by sinful men.
Is equalizing wealth the answer to societies problems?
I don't mind making an opportunity for everyone to have an education and vote, but at the expense of taking and giving by the government. How far would they go, persons and property?

Or as some liberals believe as Franklin D. Roosevelt said: "Government has the definite duty to use all its power and resources to meet new social problems with new social controls."

Is this the way to govern a country? I hope not.

BTW, this country is not a democracy! just for your info.

[player89]

That is correct...our country is a "representative republic".

This is how minority fringe groups are able to sway law and policy...by exploiting the system and targeting representatives of the government.

[kim]

Education pays for itself. It is an investment in the future. It pays larger dividends than most other investment available.
What percentage of people in prison have a HS diploma compared to the general public?
What percent of the people who own their own home have a HS diploma compared to the general public?
How much taxes are payed to the governemnt by people with a BS degree compared to the taxes paid by someone without a HS diploma?

Education is welfare, but it is the only welfare needed.
The funding formula is a patchwork of rules that started when only the rich could afford to be property owners. That formula should be scrapped and replace by a more fair modern formula.
If only the rich could afford a decent education, there will self perpetuating classes. The land of oppertunity should start with the opportunity to get an education.

Maybe the rich will pay more than the poor to educate this country. The rich are much more likely to complain about not being able to get educated employees than the poor though. They can be comforted by the fact that they are paying for the betterment of the entire country. It is better than paying some lazy slob to get drunk all day on the taxpayers's dime.

SS and unemployment are a trustfund included in your paycheck. You are buying that stuff. They need to be combined better so I can get my unemployment benifits when I retire if I don't use it while I am young enough to work.

[arc8]

To the highest bidder!

Bastiat wrote: "There is in all of us a strong disposition to believe that anything lawful is also proper. This belief is so widespread that many persons have erroneously held that things are just because the law makes them so."

He also mentioned: "No society can exist unless the laws are respected to a certain degree. The safest way to make laws respected is to make them respectable. When law and morality contradict each other, the citizens has the cruel alternative of either losing his moral sense or losing his respect for the law."

Money is powerful. For the love of money is the root of all evil...