Life after death?

[hvac r us 2]

Ever wonder what happens after death?

I have always considered myself a good Christan, but the last several years I find my mind really wondering...

Recently, my wife and I took a vacation (without the kids)for the first time. Could not help thinking about what would happen to my two young kids if something happened to us.

Since our safe return I've been thinking...

What does happen after death? I know what my Christan upbringing tells me, but it doesnt seem to be bringing much comfort to me right now.

I find it upsetting that after death I won't be able to see my kids, to listen to them laugh and see the smiles on there faces...

Even the Bible seems a little unclear about what you do with your time for all eternity...

Will I not be able to see the wonders of nature, be surrounded by the people I love? I wont be able to enjoy the simplest things like a Football game?

I want to believe the best is yet to come, but the fear of the unknown is a little unsettling.

Ever consider the fact the Bible might be wrong? It is possible right?

What if it was just a fiction novel written 2 thousand years ago, you know ...a best seller or something?

People tend to live there lives by following the Bible...what if there is no truth in the Bible? Kind of scary isnt it?

Makes me wonder...just because I was raised a Christan does it make it accurate? I mean, just because that's what I was taught does it make it right? There are other religons and beliefs out there...does that make them all wrong?

Dont forget that Christanity is what America believes(seems normal to us). The number one religon in the world is the Muslim faith, so who is right?

We are right because the Bible says so? Again I ask, what if the Bible is wrong?

With all things considered, life as we know it is pretty good. I hope and pray I have at least another 40 years to go...

Just would like more comfort in knowing there is a place for me and the people I love when the time comes...I believe there is such a place...maybe I am just thinking to much (I tend to do that)

Any opinions?

[md master]

May I e-mail you?

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by md master
May I e-mail you?

By all means, use mrvs@neo.rr.com

[bootlen]

What if it's really okay to play basketball on the I-5 in S.F. during rush hour? Has anyone ever really tried? What if you really can roller skate on a buffalo herd?

Any opinions out there?

[bootlen]

Wait...wait. I know I sounded a little harsh on my last post. My point was this.

If you are a Christian, you have no reason to doubt the Bible. If you are not a Christian, go ahead and take the chance that Holy Scripture is wrong but don't blame God or anyone else when you find yourself all alone in hell.

You want to disbelieve people who tell you not to play b-ball in the freeway, go ahead. But when they're scraping you off the asphalt, don't blame those who warned you.

[Irascible]

This may not appeal to you at all hvac, but my Christianity is strengthened by simple logic. Raised Christian? Forget it. Parents screw up all the time. Test the faith for yourself and see if it holds water. It's not hard to do.

-To believe that there is a God at all? Logic dictates that intelligent design requires an intelligent designer. Look around and you see purposeful design in all of creation. No order ever stemmed from chaos, not even by chance. It is only logical to believe in God.
-To believe at least one of the religions or some variation of? What sense would there be in a God who designed all of creation in its pre-fallen form to then hide himself? It is only logical that he would make himself known.
-To believe Christianity?
*Some faiths and perversions of faith are manifestly militant. Would God choose to covert through death and destruction? Is there logic in the waste of converting through death and destruction when such measures destroy the ones that are being converted? Christianity as Christ taught it was not militant.
*Other faiths dictate that your salvation is gained through good deeds done for God. But what does God need from you in terms of works? It would be as though an ant offered his meal to you to sustain you. It would be meaningless. Salvation can logically be a gift and nothing more. We are so low compared to him that we have no ability to earn it. Christianity as Christ taught it dictated that salvation is a gift and can't be earned.
*Some faiths create images of a God or of gods who take on worldly characteristics. Animals and plants or images there of are treated as holy. Yet it is plain to any sane man that the world after which these gods are patterned is fallen. How could a God that is so superior then be like a lowly fallen creature? It is only logical that God should be described as infinitely superior and that his son should be the only sinless man to have ever lived. Christianity teaches exactly that.

The list goes on. Yes, even logic can be perverted to fit one's beliefs. I have questioned in my mind over and over the sense of Christianity. As Christ taught it, it is the very essence of logic in my opinion.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by Irascible
This may not appeal to you at all hvac, but my Christianity is strengthened by simple logic. Raised Christian? Forget it. Parents screw up all the time. Test the faith for yourself and see if it holds water. It's not hard to do.

-To believe that there is a God at all? Logic dictates that intelligent design requires an intelligent designer. Look around and you see purposeful design in all of creation. No order ever stemmed from chaos, not even by chance. It is only logical to believe in God.
-To believe at least one of the religions or some variation of? What sense would there be in a God who designed all of creation in its pre-fallen form to then hide himself? It is only logical that he would make himself known.
-To believe Christianity?
*Some faiths and perversions of faith are manifestly militant. Would God choose to covert through death and destruction? Is there logic in the waste of converting through death and destruction when such measures destroy the ones that are being converted? Christianity as Christ taught it was not militant.
*Other faiths dictate that your salvation is gained through good deeds done for God. But what does God need from you in terms of works? It would be as though an ant offered his meal to you to sustain you. It would be meaningless. Salvation can logically be a gift and nothing more. We are so low compared to him that we have no ability to earn it. Christianity as Christ taught it dictated that salvation is a gift and can't be earned.
*Some faiths create images of a God or of gods who take on worldly characteristics. Animals and plants or images there of are treated as holy. Yet it is plain to any sane man that the world after which these gods are patterned is fallen. How could a God that is so superior then be like a lowly fallen creature? It is only logical that God should be described as infinitely superior and that his son should be the only sinless man to have ever lived. Christianity teaches exactly that.

The list goes on. Yes, even logic can be perverted to fit one's beliefs. I have questioned in my mind over and over the sense of Christianity. As Christ taught it, it is the very essence of logic in my opinion.

================================================== ==========

Hey, Ira, you must read C. S. Lewis. Your post is dead-on accurate and true and sounds a lot like Lewis.

[Irascible]

Actually, I heard the name spoken by preachers dozens of times. I've never actually read his work though. I was never much of a book person. I have a hard time just reading my Bible! Honestly, if I picked up Lewis's philosophy it was through indirect sources such as preachers who taught as Lewis did.

[bootlen]

C. S. Lewis is a hard read, no doubt. But he makes grace and salvation so easy to understand through logic. Two of his works that come to mind are "Mere Christianity" and "The Problem of Pain". He doesn't change what Scripture says. He just gives a different perspective (at least to me) through which to read Scripture.

I agree with you, Ira. Christianity/grace/salvation is logic in its purest form. It makes faith very palatable. And vice-versa.

[midhvac]

Whoever finds out first, please post the rest of us here with an update :D

[NormChris]

Originally posted by Irascible
This may not appeal to you at all hvac, but my Christianity is strengthened by simple logic. Raised Christian? Forget it. Parents screw up all the time. Test the faith for yourself and see if it holds water. It's not hard to do.

-To believe that there is a God at all? Logic dictates that intelligent design requires an intelligent designer. Look around and you see purposeful design in all of creation. No order ever stemmed from chaos, not even by chance. It is only logical to believe in God.
-To believe at least one of the religions or some variation of? What sense would there be in a God who designed all of creation in its pre-fallen form to then hide himself? It is only logical that he would make himself known.
-To believe Christianity?
*Some faiths and perversions of faith are manifestly militant. Would God choose to covert through death and destruction? Is there logic in the waste of converting through death and destruction when such measures destroy the ones that are being converted? Christianity as Christ taught it was not militant.
*Other faiths dictate that your salvation is gained through good deeds done for God. But what does God need from you in terms of works? It would be as though an ant offered his meal to you to sustain you. It would be meaningless. Salvation can logically be a gift and nothing more. We are so low compared to him that we have no ability to earn it. Christianity as Christ taught it dictated that salvation is a gift and can't be earned.
*Some faiths create images of a God or of gods who take on worldly characteristics. Animals and plants or images there of are treated as holy. Yet it is plain to any sane man that the world after which these gods are patterned is fallen. How could a God that is so superior then be like a lowly fallen creature? It is only logical that God should be described as infinitely superior and that his son should be the only sinless man to have ever lived. Christianity teaches exactly that.

The list goes on. Yes, even logic can be perverted to fit one's beliefs. I have questioned in my mind over and over the sense of Christianity. As Christ taught it, it is the very essence of logic in my opinion.

Irascible:

I have been following many of your posts for some time now and due to this one my opinion of you has increased greatly. You are so correct, Christianity is highly logical as is Biblical Creationism which is the logical foundation for the rest of scripture. I am glad to know that we are in agreement. In the past, I have had my share of posts and bantering at this site with a number of members over this and related topics. Glad you are here.

And, you would find C.S. Lewis great reading.

Norm

[bobby7388]

I'm curious, How can "Faith and Logic" be grouped together?

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by bobby7388
I'm curious, How can "Faith and Logic" be grouped together?






I agree, this is the stuff that makes me mental.

I am always trying to mix science and religion, no wonder I am loosing my hair.

[Irascible]

Obviously at the heart of your concern is the lack of specifics about what life will be like beyond this one. You fear the loss of things that you treasure here, especially relationship with your children, because you're unsure that those treasures will be there.

Since you no doubt know the verse, I won't look it up. The Bible indicates that man has not seen nor heard of what is to come. I doubt the Bible says that because it's trying to keep secrets. It's not like he's saying, "I know what's coming up and I don't want to tell you. Ha ha!". I think it's because it's literally true. We are simply not humanly capable of comprehending the amazing things that are to come.

I liken it to the light spectrum. Our eyes can pick up only a fraction of the light that is around us even now. It's a good thing too, because if it could our brains would not be able to process the information. This (http://homepage.mac.com/dtrapp/physics.f/ColorVision.html) is an interesting article on all that we are missing visually. Not only could we not process it, the glory of God reflected in heaven would likely kill us. To paraphrase the story of Moses on the mountain: God gave Moses at look at a freckle on his back side and Moses came down looking irradiated from the experience. The truest revelation of what is to come would be both incomprehensible to our minds and incompatible with our sinful bodies. I don't think football is so great that it blows your mind or kills you. Though if you love it that much, argue with me about that later. :D

But still, all that promise of great stuff does not promise you a relationship with your daughters. There are lots of implied reasons for not worrying about this. But I think the most direct reason to not worry is to look at Christ.

As you know, Christ said that when you look at him you're looking at the father. Well what was Christ, and therefore the father, like? He was a passionate teacher of the word. He was full of joy and life. He was friend to the tax collector and prostitute. He wept for dead companions. He had incredibly close bonds to his followers and called them brother. In other words, happiness, joy and relationships with others was an integral part of who Jesus is and therefore who God is. Does he reserve those relationships just for him? The answer is obvious. Are we going to walk around praising God 24/7 like robots and ignoring each other? Of course not. Free will is an integral part of life here and there. Christ is the same always. He did not show us an image of what he's like down here only to do a switch-er-roo up there. In some respects we already know what life we be like after this one because we know what Christ's life was like.

[Irascible]

That's a different topic from relationships in heaven, and it's a good one too.

Faith is logical. I gave numerous examples previously of how logic confirms my faith. Not believing in God? THAT requires faith because you have to ignore the evidence around you and simply believe blindly the humanistic philosophy.

Perhaps you refer to that blind faith I just mentioned. God requires of us to have blind faith in certain situations in life. In other words, he'll ask of those who call him Father certain things or guide us in certain directions and not tell us why up front. That is perhaps where we must have blind faith.

But in my opinion it is a great, and I mean GREAT misnomer in many circles that God requires us to have blind faith in him. Did he not send Christ? Is not the Bible one of the most verified writings in all of history? What I mean by that is that literature experts require a certain standard of proof in order to verify the true authors. The Bible exceeds many great writings in that standard including the writings of Plato. If you question the authenticity of the Bible's authors, you may as well question Plato's authenticity. Did not Jesus allow Thomas to touch his scars so that he might believe? Does not the Bible say for us to sit down and reason with Him? None of that sounds like God asks us to have blind faith in him or his son.

Logic and blind faith are indeed incompatible. When one is blind, one can not see anything with which to formulate logic. Once you call him Father, he may ask actions of you that require blind faith. But he does not require blind faith in simply believing that he is the Father. He knows our limits and knows that he gave us a mind to think with. He doesn't ask that we turn it off.

[Irascible]

And guys... help me out here.

Incredibly generic questions are nice and all. But it's a lot easier to address why you're losing hair if I knew exactly what you're thinking about as you pull it out. Generic philosophical questions require a friggin dissertation to answer! :) You can't be thinking in terms of the whole of religious debate. We aren't capable. Most of us have a few issues we grapple with in very specific terms.

[hvacbear]

It is all faith. The muslims have great faith and they prove it by dying for what they believe in. Buddists set themselves afire. Many Christians died for not renouncing thier faith. None of them were assured any thing.

The point is that any religion can only be accepted as faith there is no absolute proof!

Your what if's are normal.

As for how to tell who is right who knowes? I am sure a suicide bomber feels that he is right just before he blows himself to hell(IMHO). You accept that which you are taught from a child in most cases.

There appears to be more evidence that the Christians are right but we were raised in a predominately Christian nation so naturally we favor that.

I have little respect for any religion that kills those who do not agree with it's teachings it just does not make sense to kill someone for not beliving what you think will get them to heaven because then they are going to hell at your hand.

[Irascible]

All HVAC tradesmen are hacks. All engineers are arrogant. All women are bad drivers. If you believe that Christianity is purely faith, then you may as well believe those other statements. All of them are simplistic and prejudicial.

An argument for absolute proof is specious. How many have ever actually written out mathematical proofs for the Pythagorean Theorem? Yet those of us who haven't believe because there is plenty of other evidence that the theorem is true. However, there IS a mathematical process for proof in that case.

Things of the spirit are as sublime and as unproven with our limited senses as the nature of existence itself. Can you absolutely prove the nature of your existence? The most brilliant physicists on the planet have not solved the grand unified theory. To put it more simply, they still don't know what truly holds the universe together.

So what does any reasonable person do? Without absolute proof of the nature of your existence, do you question it? Of course not. We take the evidence available and make the best decision we can, regardless of whether or not we can prove it absolutely. That is true of a 100 things in anyone's life. We have not proven them absolutely yet we accept them as fact.

Intelligent design must come from an intelligent designer. There is no example in the universe to counter that. Order never flows from chaos. Those ARE absolutes truths - truths that are more obvious on the face of it than the Pythagorean Theorem. Given those truths I conclude that there must be a god, the God. A provable absolute truth with our limited faculties? Perhaps not. But nonetheless a preponderance of evidence forces me to conclude that God exists just as it force me to believe that you exist. In my case, faith is not required for either of those conclusions. Faith that Jesus Christ was the son of God? That most certainly is required. :)

[R12rules]

Faith is the substance of things hoped for. Things not seen.
Without faith, it is impossible to please God.

He gives His own the faith we need to understand His will for our lives.
He gives us the right amount of faith in order to believe in Him as God.

Faith is not based upon what we want. It is based soley upon Him Who made us.

I do not make my hope that this will happen or that over there will NOT happen.
I place my hope, my trust, that God would have His way with me.
That I would be the living vessel He would have me to be for His purposes.
My personal hope is that whenever He sends me or wherever He sends me and for whatever purposes He chooses to send me ... I do all according to His will.


Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. reading His Word and hearing His teaching of the Word of God.

Faith in Him is all about relationship.
Not with a group.
Not with a denomination.
Not with a pact made with men.

Relationship with God through His Son Jesus.

Until there is a relationship developed and ongoing with Jesus and yourself, you cannot possibly have the faith to believe the Bible or what men speak to you about God.
Simply because you have nothing substantial to base it all upon.

Muslins believe, by faith, that allah is the creator of the universe.
yet they are dead wrong.

Some imbittered so-called "scientists" say they believe the Earth is flat.
Well, they used to say it was. They quckly changed their tune when a few dozen explorers began returning home with evidence they were full of baloney.

Some so called "scientists" claim they believe the ozone is corrupted by CFC's having been recently released into the air.
And that this phenomenom brought about a warming ... a "Global Warming" as they call it.
Well ... they are just now making it publically known that there aint no such thing as global warming taking place right now.

And the evidence is being made public that the ozone hole over the Northern Hemisphere was NOT caused by man made ingredients. That it was happening due to "natural occurances".

Hmmm.... sounds to me like some more scientists are full of baloney again.
Their beliefs are totally a waste.

They are unfounded.

Hmmmm.... the Muslinsand the so called "scientists" have more than just a few things in common here.


Muslins may beleive in a person who was claimed to have been a "prophet". But that man died and was buried.
These imbittered so called "Scientists" have their own prophets, so to speak. But they all die ad are buried.


The people who belong to God. The one's who call upon the name of Jesus for their salvation. These people have the Son of God to call their prophet.
And he died, was buried, but He rose from the dead and made public appearances to many many people.

His grave site is EMPTY!!!

[bootlen]

BTW, R12, the fact He was resurrected from the dead is proof that He is GOD. No one else has ever done that because they are NOT God.

To the unbeliever, logic and faith are not compatible but to the believer, the one who has received Christ, they are inseparable. As the believer reads Scripture, he thinks, "Why didn't I see that before?", all the time knowing that he couldn't because the Spirit teaches the believer the deeper truths of Scripture. That requires an indwelling of the Spirit. An indwelling of the Spirit is a result of salvation and grace.

[Edited by bootlen on 07-27-2004 at 07:06 AM]

[Workhorse]

That's a good question. If you are not someone who has great faith you may want to read the book "Embraced by the Light". It is a great and easy read for someone who is maybe in the middle of the road on faith. It sure helped me out when my faith was not so strong.
My faith today is just that, FAITH. For someone who has experienced the presence of God in their life no other PROOF is required. Logic and proof is not needed even though having had God come into my that is all the proof needed.

[arc8]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by bobby7388
I'm curious, How can "Faith and Logic" be grouped together?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree, this is the stuff that makes me mental.

I am always trying to mix science and religion, no wonder I am loosing my hair.

Faith and logic may have different meanings, but can it be grouped? Someone who believes in God can be logical. Just like someone who is logical can believe in God. But there are some who say they are opposites. Have you heard of Creationist scientist, they do exist. Has any one of you ever studied systematic theology? You all should. If ever there was a most logical explanation of God and his word in a logical thought, then systematic theology would definitely be your school. Anyway, God's the one who created logic.

I have little respect for any religion that kills those who do not agree with it's teachings it just does not make sense to kill someone for not beliving what you think will get them to heaven because then they are going to hell at your hand.

So do I and you can tell the Muslims, I said so.

Even the Bible seems a little unclear about what you do with your time for all eternity...

But it is very clear what God expect of us to be and do while we are on this planet!

Dont forget that Christanity is what America believes(seems normal to us). The number one religon in the world is the Muslim faith, so who is right?

Yes, and may God keep blessing America.
Number one meaning more believers of that faith or more popular through out the world? And why is that?

[bootlen]

Yes, the largest "religion" in the world is Muslim. God says that narrow is the path that leads to righteousness and wide is the path that leads to destruction.

[Irascible]

That's odd. I did a google search and the top two returns both came back saying Islam is number two. Of coure, I do not believe everything I see on the internet. And I don't necessarily expect Christianity to be or to maintain number one status. I just wonder which is accurate.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=number+one+religion+in+the+world&btnG=Google+Search

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by Irascible
Obviously at the heart of your concern is the lack of specifics about what life will be like beyond this one. You fear the loss of things that you treasure here, especially relationship with your children, because you're unsure that those treasures will be there.

Since you no doubt know the verse, I won't look it up. The Bible indicates that man has not seen nor heard of what is to come. I doubt the Bible says that because it's trying to keep secrets. It's not like he's saying, "I know what's coming up and I don't want to tell you. Ha ha!". I think it's because it's literally true. We are simply not humanly capable of comprehending the amazing things that are to come.

I liken it to the light spectrum. Our eyes can pick up only a fraction of the light that is around us even now. It's a good thing too, because if it could our brains would not be able to process the information. This (http://homepage.mac.com/dtrapp/physics.f/ColorVision.html) is an interesting article on all that we are missing visually. Not only could we not process it, the glory of God reflected in heaven would likely kill us. To paraphrase the story of Moses on the mountain: God gave Moses at look at a freckle on his back side and Moses came down looking irradiated from the experience. The truest revelation of what is to come would be both incomprehensible to our minds and incompatible with our sinful bodies. I don't think football is so great that it blows your mind or kills you. Though if you love it that much, argue with me about that later. :D

But still, all that promise of great stuff does not promise you a relationship with your daughters. There are lots of implied reasons for not worrying about this. But I think the most direct reason to not worry is to look at Christ.

As you know, Christ said that when you look at him you're looking at the father. Well what was Christ, and therefore the father, like? He was a passionate teacher of the word. He was full of joy and life. He was friend to the tax collector and prostitute. He wept for dead companions. He had incredibly close bonds to his followers and called them brother. In other words, happiness, joy and relationships with others was an integral part of who Jesus is and therefore who God is. Does he reserve those relationships just for him? The answer is obvious. Are we going to walk around praising God 24/7 like robots and ignoring each other? Of course not. Free will is an integral part of life here and there. Christ is the same always. He did not show us an image of what he's like down here only to do a switch-er-roo up there. In some respects we already know what life we be like after this one because we know what Christ's life was like.

Very well written...thanks

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by Irascible
All HVAC tradesmen are hacks. All engineers are arrogant. All women are bad drivers.

The other stuff I agree but, the women driver thing is right! :)

[air1]

For what it's worth.
God is beyond description or comprehension.
Religious stories are metaphors of the transcendence which can be considered God.
It is through religion that we experience the transcendence.
There are many different religions that attempt to explain the transcendence.
Problems arise when we fail to recognize the stories as metaphors and instead interpret them as literal truths.
No one can say what God is or isn't. But we all have sense of a source of which we are a part of.
If your religion helps you to experience the source and creates positive results then there is nothing wrong with that.
My personal belief is that that source as we experience it is Love.

I could suggest some books to read if you are interested.

Peace.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by Irascible
That's odd. I did a google search and the top two returns both came back saying Islam is number two. Of coure, I do not believe everything I see on the internet. And I don't necessarily expect Christianity to be or to maintain number one status. I just wonder which is accurate.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=number+one+religion+in+the+world&btnG=Google+Search

================================================== ==========

That's interesting. I've always read and heard that there are more muslims in the world than any other.

[bootlen]

A possible explanation is that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are grouped with Christians. Neither of these "religions" believe that Jesus is God and therefore cannot be accurately considered Christians.

I don't know if that would drasticaly change the percentages or not.

[kim]

Right and wrong is so far beyond our abilities. Maybe if Adam and Eve had eaten more fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, we would know more about it.

I can't tell you for certian that the God I pray to even exists. There is no proof like there is in mathematical therums. I can't tell you that the god you pray to does not exist either. They might be the same entity know to us by different names. I can't tell you that Muslims are evil or that christians are rightous.

I beleive as irascable does. A well ordered world implies a quiding hand to structure the order. It is possible that this all came about by chance. It is possible that the first quarter you flip will land on its edge.

The God in my bible has given us so much treasure. There is very little gold in his treasure. God's treasure is much more valuable than gold. If I find out tomarrow that God never existed, I have still been blessed by a truely profound enlightenment. My life is (and has been) a better life because of God's treasures. If I find out tommarrow that God does truely exists, I will be even further blessed. That is enough for me.

[arc8]

For what it's worth.
God is beyond description or comprehension.
Religious stories are metaphors of the transcendence which can be considered God.
It is through religion that we experience the transcendence.
There are many different religions that attempt to explain the transcendence.
Problems arise when we fail to recognize the stories as metaphors and instead interpret them as literal truths.
No one can say what God is or isn't. But we all have sense of a source of which we are a part of.
If your religion helps you to experience the source and creates positive results then there is nothing wrong with that.
My personal belief is that that source as we experience it is Love.

I could suggest some books to read if you are interested.

Peace.

God's words are literal.
Thou shalts and thou shalt nots, it's there.
Without Righteousness, Truth and Justice there is no Love.

[hvac r us 2]

Everybody has been giving me lots to think about, the more information the better.

Guess I am having a hard time since I am the type of person that has to "prove" everything. Guess it's my technical up bringing that always has to know why.

Not to get all sentimental as I have to keep up my tough guy image :) but...


Thanks

[kim]

Without Love there is no Rightous.

Rightousness is just the actions of love.

[air1]

Originally posted by arc8
For what it's worth.
God is beyond description or comprehension.
Religious stories are metaphors of the transcendence which can be considered God.
It is through religion that we experience the transcendence.
There are many different religions that attempt to explain the transcendence.
Problems arise when we fail to recognize the stories as metaphors and instead interpret them as literal truths.
No one can say what God is or isn't. But we all have sense of a source of which we are a part of.
If your religion helps you to experience the source and creates positive results then there is nothing wrong with that.
My personal belief is that that source as we experience it is Love.

I could suggest some books to read if you are interested.

Peace.

God's words are literal.
Thou shalts and thou shalt nots, it's there.
Without Righteousness, Truth and Justice there is no Love.

Did God write the bible? Do you have proof? Or is your proof simply what someone told you. Have you examined your beliefs critically to find out why you believe what you believe.

Don't believe everything you think.

Last sentence will be my new bumper sticker.

[R12rules]

Originally posted by Irascible
That's odd. I did a google search and the top two returns both came back saying Islam is number two. Of coure, I do not believe everything I see on the internet. And I don't necessarily expect Christianity to be or to maintain number one status. I just wonder which is accurate.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=number+one+religion+in+the+world&btnG=Google+Search

I visited the link you gave us. I went to the first hit. I recognised two of the orgs who were responsible for the materials presented.
The U.S. Center For World Missions and a part of their group with is called Frontier Missions.
I have worked with the US Center and they are a fine group of people. I would not doubt a single thing they published. They are very detail oriented and never wish to print something that is inaccurate.



Numbers will not draw a person to Christ.
An open door to being fed and clothed and to receive free medical attention will never draw people to Chirst Jesus.
The Word says that unless the Father, God, draws us to Himself, then we will never want to come on our own.
We simply would not do so.

He draws us to Himself. Through His Son Jesus.
And nobody comes to know God, apart or seperate from coming to know Jesus first. And coming into right relationship with Jesus. And then, a person can become aquainted with the Father.


So, if one person does not have a faith in God The Father, it is because of one of two reasons.

1) they have not yet been drawn to Him. They havent been called yet.

2) they HAVE been called, but have rejected Him!




YOU tell me .... what does it feel like, to you, in your own words .... to be rejected by someone whom you deeply love?
This is someone whom you would do anything for!

This is someone whom you would even send your own child, your very own son, to stand in the place of that person and receive their punishment!!!


How would YOU feel if you had sent your own son to stand in the place of that person whom you deeply love. And the authorities of the day brutalized your own son, in this person's place. Then they nailed him to a tree and waited for him to die of esphixiation.

And you sttod there watching the whole entire scene. You saw this friend whom you love, standing there and you also watched as your son was receiving the tortureous punishment which should have been poured out onto your friend, and not your son.

How would that make YOU feel?

And then you begin calling this person. Speaking their name. Doing little things as well as big things just to get their attention.... and yet they never respond to YOU!

How would THAT make YOU feel???


Then you would do whatever was in your power to send a message to that person to get their attention. You would speak to them heart to heart. This would be a very special thing just between the very two of you.
It would be so special.
You would place a message intheir heart which only they could hear and understand.

There would be no mistaking whom this message was from.



Yet, over time, right in front of your eyes, this person whom you dearly love and would do ANYTHING for ...would reject you.

And even though you are not asking for their help, they act too busy on their own projects.

Even though you dont need them for anything, and just want their companionship and to share your love with them ... they have their own companions and they express their own brand of "love".



How would THAT make YOU feel???



Think about this....

[bootlen]

No argument here, R12. But my point was that size has nothing to do with right or wrong. Hence my reference to Matt. 7:13.

I don't know anything about the organization you worked with. But I do know that when Mormons and JW's are called Christians, it is an inaccurate statement for the reason I mentioned. Maybe they were lumped in with Christians to save space but that didn't make it any more accurate.

[arc8]

Did God write the bible? Do you have proof? Or is your proof simply what someone told you. Have you examined your beliefs critically to find out why you believe what you believe.

Don't believe everything you think.

Last sentence will be my new bumper sticker.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.-Pr. 1:7

Did you know that God has never been fooled?
Did you know that repentance is good but innocense is better?
Did you know that Jesus Christ is still the hope of this world?
Did you know that men make two mistakes concerning time: they misjudge the brevity of life and the length of eternity?

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Pr.4:23

My bumper sticker: Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD... Pr.3:7

[hvacdoc32]

Bootlen: Why is pat tillman any more of a hero than any other person in the military? He may have more conviction than anybody in the N.F.L but that does not make him more of a hero than any other man that has died in wars.

HERO:
A man of distinguished valor or enterprise in danger, or fortitude in suffering; a prominent or central personage in any remarkable action or event; hence, a great or illustrious person.

Each man is a hero and oracle to somebody. --Emerson.

[hvacbear]

Originally posted by Irascible
All HVAC tradesmen are hacks. All engineers are arrogant. All women are bad drivers. If you believe that Christianity is purely faith, then you may as well believe those other statements. All of them are simplistic and prejudicial.

An argument for absolute proof is specious. How many have ever actually written out mathematical proofs for the Pythagorean Theorem? Yet those of us who haven't believe because there is plenty of other evidence that the theorem is true. However, there IS a mathematical process for proof in that case.

Things of the spirit are as sublime and as unproven with our limited senses as the nature of existence itself. Can you absolutely prove the nature of your existence? The most brilliant physicists on the planet have not solved the grand unified theory. To put it more simply, they still don't know what truly holds the universe together.

So what does any reasonable person do? Without absolute proof of the nature of your existence, do you question it? Of course not. We take the evidence available and make the best decision we can, regardless of whether or not we can prove it absolutely. That is true of a 100 things in anyone's life. We have not proven them absolutely yet we accept them as fact.

Intelligent design must come from an intelligent designer. There is no example in the universe to counter that. Order never flows from chaos. Those ARE absolutes truths - truths that are more obvious on the face of it than the Pythagorean Theorem. Given those truths I conclude that there must be a god, the God. A provable absolute truth with our limited faculties? Perhaps not. But nonetheless a preponderance of evidence forces me to conclude that God exists just as it force me to believe that you exist. In my case, faith is not required for either of those conclusions. Faith that Jesus Christ was the son of God? That most certainly is required. :)

Exactly the point you must have faith in something you have never seen. You can observe the pythagorean theorem ,but you have never seen God it takes faith that is the point.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by hvacdoc32
Bootlen: Why is pat tillman any more of a hero than any other person in the military? He may have more conviction than anybody in the N.F.L but that does not make him more of a hero than any other man that has died in wars.

HERO:
A man of distinguished valor or enterprise in danger, or fortitude in suffering; a prominent or central personage in any remarkable action or event; hence, a great or illustrious person.

Each man is a hero and oracle to somebody. --Emerson.


================================================== ==========

Actually, he's not any more heroic than any other guy who willingly makes personal sacrifices for the betterment of his fellow man. What Tillman did was epitomize the American hero. He had tremendous potential yet untapped. He knew it. He could have stayed right where he was but chose to take himself out of selfishness and put himself in selflessness. That is a hero in my book. There are countless others doing the same thing but their story is not being told. Sad? Maybe. But a true hero doesn't need his story to be told. The reason the story has to be told is for the sake of those of us who are being served so that we might honor them by making sure their sacrifice is not in vain.

[bobby7388]

I would have to totaly dis-agree with the whole "Faith/Logic" argument.



Originally posted by bobby7388
I'm curious, How can "Faith and Logic" be grouped together?

My point was at my first post is that these two are not synonymous, even though the various post seem to try and link them in some fashion.
Faith, or blind faith would be the same thing, it's the belief that it has to be right, or can be trusted without any proof what-so-ever.
Logic does not fit into the realm of faith based thought, logic is a certainty.


Th closest I've ever heard the two combined was when Stephen Hawking posed the question, "Where did it all come from" meaning the stuff that the universe is made of.
Even he could not answer that, but... does that conclude that there is a total creator?


Here is a thought, " The sun will rise tommorrow" is that faith or is it logic?

[Workhorse]

Let me ask those of you who say they need proof of God and if there is no proof how can we prove there is or ever was a god.

Can you prove that atoms exist? How about that we ever landed on the moon? And what about how far it is from new york to london? What about America's civil war or revolutionary war. Did Columbus really discover America? I could go on and on but you get the point.

Do you know that these things exist and the answers are true or are you taking someone else word for them. Did some teacher tell you this or did you read it somewhere? Or were you actually there and know it first hand?

Most likely, you had faith in the teacher or the book. Most likely you except what you have been told. Maybe you were told it and you checked it out by reading up on it and asking others.

Isn't that what religion is about? The proof is in the faith of the belief. If you believe in God and have faith in Him, then you have all the proof you need. It is apparent in your life if you believe.

[bobby7388]

Originally posted by workhorse
Let me ask those of you who say they need proof of God and if there is no proof how can we prove there is or ever was a god.

Can you prove that atoms exist? How about that we ever landed on the moon? And what about how far it is from new york to london? What about America's civil war or revolutionary war. Did Columbus really discover America? I could go on and on but you get the point.

Do you know that these things exist and the answers are true or are you taking someone else word for them. Did some teacher tell you this or did you read it somewhere? Or were you actually there and know it first hand?

Most likely, you had faith in the teacher or the book. Most likely you except what you have been told. Maybe you were told it and you checked it out by reading up on it and asking others.


Isn't that what religion is about? The proof is in the faith of the belief. If you believe in God and have faith in Him, then you have all the proof you need. It is apparent in your life if you believe.





Interesting, my rebuttal.

Those things can be proven in some fashion to be accepted as correct, either mathematically or through personal knowledge of being there.
You cannot say the same about faith based beliefs, 1) Math can't be used to prove anything. 2) No one has ever seen him/her or it, and lived to talk about it.
Science is not faith, History!! maybe.

[wolfdog]

Originally posted by bootlen
A possible explanation is that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses are grouped with Christians. Neither of these "religions" believe that Jesus is God and therefore cannot be accurately considered Christians.

I don't know if that would drasticaly change the percentages or not.

Do the math.

Based on the above referenced site, Christianity numbers about 2 billion worldwide.

Mormons number around 11+ million and
Jehovah's Witnesses number 6+ million.

The combined total of 17+ million is LESS than 1 percent of professed Christianity.

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by bobby7388

Originally posted by workhorse
Let me ask those of you who say they need proof of God and if there is no proof how can we prove there is or ever was a god.

Can you prove that atoms exist? How about that we ever landed on the moon? And what about how far it is from new york to london? What about America's civil war or revolutionary war. Did Columbus really discover America? I could go on and on but you get the point.

Do you know that these things exist and the answers are true or are you taking someone else word for them. Did some teacher tell you this or did you read it somewhere? Or were you actually there and know it first hand?

Most likely, you had faith in the teacher or the book. Most likely you except what you have been told. Maybe you were told it and you checked it out by reading up on it and asking others.


Isn't that what religion is about? The proof is in the faith of the belief. If you believe in God and have faith in Him, then you have all the proof you need. It is apparent in your life if you believe.


Interesting, my rebuttal.

Those things can be proven in some fashion to be accepted as correct, either mathematically or through personal knowledge of being there.
You cannot say the same about faith based beliefs, 1) Math can't be used to prove anything. 2) No one has ever seen him/her or it, and lived to talk about it.
Science is not faith, History!! maybe.


I agree with you Bobby it's exactly how I think, see thats where I have issues.

Science I can prove, faith I cannot. Although I do believe, I feel it in my heart...I just cant prove it. And that is what makes me crazy.

This thread like so many has taken on a life of it's own. One thing I would really like to know is, what do you think you do with you time for all eternity when you die?

That question still haunts me...I must be missing something. I need someone to expalin it to me like I am a 6 year old!

[Irascible]

Originally posted by hvacbear
Exactly the point you must have faith in something you have never seen. You can observe the pythagorean theorem ,but you have never seen God it takes faith that is the point.Oy vey. Talk about ignoring all but the last sentence and then not understanding the last sentence! :p

Since my Christianity is not entirely a cerebral exercise, it seemed appropriate to temper all the talk of logic by including the fact that there is indeed some faith involved in my Christian walk that isn't entirely logic driven. But that was only a footnote to my point.

My non-imaginary point was that the belief in a god or God is a logical conclusion presented by the evidence around me and requires no faith at all. The evidence is overwhelming that intelligent design was behind our creation. The fantastic complexity with which our bodies are made is alone enough to convince. That much is as easily observable as the Pythagorean Theorem. To believe that all the divinely ordered wonder around us, wondrous even in its fallen state, formed from chaos - now THAT takes blind and logic-less faith.

[Irascible]

Hey Norm! What's your e-mail?

[hvacbear]

I was referring to your last sentence.
Let me clarify, you have seen the afore mentioned theorem used in practical physical application which requires no faith.
The equipment we work on is obviously made by a designer, but you have never seen him just because you saw the equipment he designed it takes faith. We are making the same point.

[Irascible]

:cool:

[sodadude]

To the starter of this thread, that was the best post I have ever read.

I too just came back from a vacation where the 4 of us were flying.

I had the same thoughts as to what would happen to my family if we all died together? Could we still be together is some blissful environment that spends the day worshipping God?

And what about the football games, the simple pleasures in life? Are they over?

Does your soul take on a new life that has no knowledge of simple pleasures, only gratifying God?

Great post. Dude I really appreciate it because I have had those same thoughts for years.

The one thing I know for sure is there is a Creator. I know because the compulsion to drink myself to death was miraculously lifted out of me.

But the question remains. What happens after we die?

That is the biggest fear of the unknown I know.

[arc8]

Here is a thought, " The sun will rise tommorrow" is that faith or is it logic?

Easy answer; both!
You believe it will because it has proved itself and even know it will by past experience.

Can you prove that atoms exist?

What do you think?

[bootlen]

Originally posted by bobby7388
I would have to totaly dis-agree with the whole "Faith/Logic" argument.



Originally posted by bobby7388
I'm curious, How can "Faith and Logic" be grouped together?

My point was at my first post is that these two are not synonymous, even though the various post seem to try and link them in some fashion.
Faith, or blind faith would be the same thing, it's the belief that it has to be right, or can be trusted without any proof what-so-ever.
Logic does not fit into the realm of faith based thought, logic is a certainty.


Th closest I've ever heard the two combined was when Stephen Hawking posed the question, "Where did it all come from" meaning the stuff that the universe is made of.
Even he could not answer that, but... does that conclude that there is a total creator?


Here is a thought, " The sun will rise tommorrow" is that faith or is it logic?

================================================== ==========

I don't think anyone has said that faith and logic are synonymous. Only that they are partners once that faith is manifested. The result of faith that has become manifest makes the one with approriate faith in God realize that there was no other logical way for things to be.

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but by Me." Believeing that takes faith but once you put yor faith in Christ as your Savior and Lord, it becomes incredibly obvious why His statement is logically true. I don't claim to know how that happens. It just does. Kind'a like the daily sunrise...lots of scientific explanation for it but no explanation how or why it all started...unless you have faith in God and His Word. Then it all makes perfect sense.

[air1]

This thread like so many has taken on a life of it's own. One thing I would really like to know is, what do you think you do with you time for all eternity when you die?

That question still haunts me...I must be missing something. I need someone to expalin it to me like I am a 6 year old! [/B][/QUOTE]


Time is relative. E=MC2

[Irascible]

Given our very finite minds, we simply can't know. But it's not hard for me to imagine that eternity can easily be filled full of activity. If you can accept that God is infinite then you can accept that we'll be quite busy.

Think of it this way. There are people who have virtually no life outside of work. Tell them that they'll get one full year off from work and what would they say? They'd lament that they'd have no idea what to do with themselves. Yet other people fill entire lifetimes full of adventure. Give them two lifetimes and they could fill every spare moment with activity. Now take such a person's ability to find adventure in life and multiply it by God's infinite nature and it's not hard to imagine that we'll have more than a full plate.

We'll have an entire universe, perhaps multiple universes, and perhaps multiple dimensions to play and work in. We may find out that the terms universe and dimension are simply very shallow ways of describing much more diverse and complex realities. They'll be millions, perhaps billions of fellow Christians as well as potentially trillions upon trillions (probably more) of other humans to keep us company. It boggles the mind.

[bootlen]

That'll preach!

[bootlen]

Originally posted by hvac r us 2
Ever wonder what happens after death?

I have always considered myself a good Christan, but the last several years I find my mind really wondering...

Recently, my wife and I took a vacation (without the kids)for the first time. Could not help thinking about what would happen to my two young kids if something happened to us.

Since our safe return I've been thinking...

What does happen after death? I know what my Christan upbringing tells me, but it doesnt seem to be bringing much comfort to me right now.

I find it upsetting that after death I won't be able to see my kids, to listen to them laugh and see the smiles on there faces...

Even the Bible seems a little unclear about what you do with your time for all eternity...

Will I not be able to see the wonders of nature, be surrounded by the people I love? I wont be able to enjoy the simplest things like a Football game?

I want to believe the best is yet to come, but the fear of the unknown is a little unsettling.

Ever consider the fact the Bible might be wrong? It is possible right?

What if it was just a fiction novel written 2 thousand years ago, you know ...a best seller or something?

People tend to live there lives by following the Bible...what if there is no truth in the Bible? Kind of scary isnt it?

Makes me wonder...just because I was raised a Christan does it make it accurate? I mean, just because that's what I was taught does it make it right? There are other religons and beliefs out there...does that make them all wrong?

Dont forget that Christanity is what America believes(seems normal to us). The number one religon in the world is the Muslim faith, so who is right?

We are right because the Bible says so? Again I ask, what if the Bible is wrong?

With all things considered, life as we know it is pretty good. I hope and pray I have at least another 40 years to go...

Just would like more comfort in knowing there is a place for me and the people I love when the time comes...I believe there is such a place...maybe I am just thinking to much (I tend to do that)

Any opinions?



================================================== ==========

Hey hvac, Ira prompted me in an email to get back on track. So...
Look up what you can about Bema, the judgement seat of Christ. It is the judgement that all Christians will face. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. I don't have Scripture addresses in front of me right now but soon as I can, I'll post them on this thread.
It tells what becomes of Christians early on in eternity. How that takes place chronologically, I cannot say since eternity is outside the dimension of time. That's just one of those mysteries we'll understand only after we're there.
Anyway, maybe you'll get some answers to your very pertinent question.

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by bootlen

Originally posted by hvac r us 2
Ever wonder what happens after death?

I have always considered myself a good Christan, but the last several years I find my mind really wondering...

Recently, my wife and I took a vacation (without the kids)for the first time. Could not help thinking about what would happen to my two young kids if something happened to us.

Since our safe return I've been thinking...

What does happen after death? I know what my Christan upbringing tells me, but it doesnt seem to be bringing much comfort to me right now.

I find it upsetting that after death I won't be able to see my kids, to listen to them laugh and see the smiles on there faces...

Even the Bible seems a little unclear about what you do with your time for all eternity...

Will I not be able to see the wonders of nature, be surrounded by the people I love? I wont be able to enjoy the simplest things like a Football game?

I want to believe the best is yet to come, but the fear of the unknown is a little unsettling.

Ever consider the fact the Bible might be wrong? It is possible right?

What if it was just a fiction novel written 2 thousand years ago, you know ...a best seller or something?

People tend to live there lives by following the Bible...what if there is no truth in the Bible? Kind of scary isnt it?

Makes me wonder...just because I was raised a Christan does it make it accurate? I mean, just because that's what I was taught does it make it right? There are other religons and beliefs out there...does that make them all wrong?

Dont forget that Christanity is what America believes(seems normal to us). The number one religon in the world is the Muslim faith, so who is right?

We are right because the Bible says so? Again I ask, what if the Bible is wrong?

With all things considered, life as we know it is pretty good. I hope and pray I have at least another 40 years to go...

Just would like more comfort in knowing there is a place for me and the people I love when the time comes...I believe there is such a place...maybe I am just thinking to much (I tend to do that)

Any opinions?



================================================== ==========

Hey hvac, Ira prompted me in an email to get back on track. So...
Look up what you can about Bema, the judgement seat of Christ. It is the judgement that all Christians will face. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. I don't have Scripture addresses in front of me right now but soon as I can, I'll post them on this thread.
It tells what becomes of Christians early on in eternity. How that takes place chronologically, I cannot say since eternity is outside the dimension of time. That's just one of those mysteries we'll understand only after we're there.
Anyway, maybe you'll get some answers to your very pertinent question.

You know, I just now have re read my thread since you quoted it.

And I have come to the conclusion that maybe I would understand more if I learned how to spell christian! :)

[bootlen]

Okay, hvac. Here's some really good stuff on the "afterlife".

Go to http://www.myfaith.com/TheBema.htm. Loads of info there.

[Edited by bootlen on 07-28-2004 at 03:11 PM]

[bootlen]

Hvac, you may be having problems getting to that URL directly. Try Google and type in "bema", go to second page and select the one about the Judgement Seat of Christ.

[coolie]

Type the above subject in your Google box ( and buy Google stock!) Then print out the verses.
When I die I will be with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ for all eternity. That's fine, very fine, and all I want.
"Absent from the body; present with the LORD..."

[bobby7388]

Originally posted by Irascible

The evidence is overwhelming that intelligent design was behind our creation. The fantastic complexity with which our bodies are made is alone enough to convince.


There is no "evidence" of anything, if so then back it up with factual proof.
Just to say that we walk the earth is not conclusive proof of a creator.
Yes!! I'll agree that the whole and all it's parts must have come from somewhere, but to say "Evidence" is somewhat premature.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by bobby7388

Originally posted by Irascible

The evidence is overwhelming that intelligent design was behind our creation. The fantastic complexity with which our bodies are made is alone enough to convince.


There is no "evidence" of anything, if so then back it up with factual proof.
Just to say that we walk the earth is not conclusive proof of a creator.
Yes!! I'll agree that the whole and all it's parts must have come from somewhere, but to say "Evidence" is somewhat premature.

================================================== ==========

Your disagreement here is not with us. It is with God Himself. Romans 1 speaks to this.

[Irascible]

As you know, there are various laws in science. A biology teacher of mine in 9th grade taught that one of the laws of biology is that life must come from life. It was an interesting conundrum for her because she believed in humanistic evolution. In any event, if life must come from life then we can draw conclusions from that. The simple fact that I see a living creature in front of me is evidence enough that that creature spawned from another living creature. I need not have absolute proof of that creature's origins to know that it indeed owes its existence to another living creature.

The fact that order never stems from chaos is as much law as life must stem from life. Given that, the magnificently complex order that is evident in our own bodies speaks very plainly that it was designed by a higher being. I call him God. You can call him chopped liver if you wish. But to deny the self-evident logic that we must have been created by a higher being is to believe that order flowed from chaos. If you believe that, you may as well believe that jumbling a bunch of words randomly will eventually produce a Stephen King novel. Run a word randomizing program for all eternity and it would never happen. Intelligent design, be it in a book or a body, requires an intelligent designer.

So yeah, I'll stick to my usage of the word "evidence". :)

[arc8]

Why is the evidence so difficult to see and believe? I know, it's called unbelief.
So, here's a question. What is the unpardonable sin?

[bootlen]

Originally posted by arc8
Why is the evidence so difficult to see and believe? I know, it's called unbelief.
So, here's a question. What is the unpardonable sin?

================================================== ==========

According to Scripture, rejection of the Holy Spirit.

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by coolie
Type the above subject in your Google box ( and buy Google stock!)
When I die I will be with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ for all eternity. That's fine, very fine, and all I want.
"Absent from the body; present with the LORD..."

See, now we are getting back to my orignal concern. Read the above quote, I find it a little upsetting because again...what about my kids, family and the things I treasure?

I have to believe god being all caring and loving that provides me with these "gifts" like my kids, will not take them away from me even after death...

[player89]

Take a look at Job...he lost all his "gifts" and those things he had acquired, but after he really saw who God was (Chapter 42), God gave him greater gifts than those he originally had.

The all caring, all loving God is also the all just and all righteous God. If the "gifts" God has given to us do not reflect him in love and in righteousness, why should he receive them. He created this fleshly bodily we exist in, yet the flesh is enmity with God.

[bootlen]

Job is a fair example here. Job was called a righteous man by God. Yes, he lost his kids to this world, but they were waiting for him in Heaven. Plus, he had more kids given to him by God to enjoy here and in Heaven.

Losing your kids can be devastating. But if you don't go to Heaven, you go to hell. You will be all alone in hell, in total darkness and in agonizing pain. But if you are blood-purchased by Christ, you will spend eternity with the author of love, as swell as any of your family who are saved.
Two options...it's really a no-brainer.

My advice: give your life to Christ and bring as many of your family members as you can. Each of you has to make the choice but you, hvac r us 2, can have tremendous influence on them as they make up their own minds.

In homes where the father is a strong Christian, 98% of those complete families are saved. In familiies where the father is not, the pecentages plummet drastically.

[bootlen]

BTW, hvac, if by "all the things" you "treasure" you mean realtionships with family & friends, those things will remain intact, only much deeper and stronger. If you mean worldly things...sports, cars, boats, homes, etc...all those things will be burned up and a new Heaven & earth will be made WITHOUT hate, war, fear, strife, disagreement, ignorance, etc. That is to say without sin.

Each person will have a mansion, lavishly furnished with all the things you like most.

So store up your treasures in Heaven. We cannot even imagine the treasures that await...the greatest being an up-close and very personal realtionship with the Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by bootlen
Job is a fair example here. Job was called a righteous man by God. Yes, he lost his kids to this world, but they were waiting for him in Heaven. Plus, he had more kids given to him by God to enjoy here and in Heaven.

Losing your kids can be devastating. But if you don't go to Heaven, you go to hell. You will be all alone in hell, in total darkness and in agonizing pain. But if you are blood-purchased by Christ, you will spend eternity with the author of love, as swell as any of your family who are saved.
Two options...it's really a no-brainer.

My advice: give your life to Christ and bring as many of your family members as you can. Each of you has to make the choice but you, hvac r us 2, can have tremendous influence on them as they make up their own minds.

In homes where the father is a strong Christian, 98% of those complete families are saved. In familiies where the father is not, the pecentages plummet drastically.

I hear you, trust me...even my little boy knows the rules and things like we pray before dinner(actually, he reminds us when there is a lot of confusion going on...and he's not even 4 yet)

Even though I have been away from the church for awhile it doesnt change my beliefs and how I feel...God knows the heart.

My mind is always thinking, while reading this thread I thought of this...

What if when I die I go to hevean, and my kids after there death go the other way? How can I be joined with them after death then?

Doesnt sound like it would be much fun for me knowing my kids are being punished for all eternity and I cant help them?

Just doesnt sound right to me that an all caring and loving God would want anybody to suffer forever...with no chance for parole...

[arc8]

According to Scripture, rejection of the Holy Spirit.

That is called unbelief. God tries to reprove and convict you of your sins, but you refuse to acknowledge them.
He will only allow you so much time, then no more again, since people rather reject his Son and his righteouness then serve Jesus Christ the Creator.

Doesnt sound like it would be much fun for me knowing my kids are being punished for all eternity and I cant help them?

How do you think Christians feel? Don't be alarm when a Christian witnesses to you, they are very concerned about you as well.

Just doesnt sound right to me that an all caring and loving God would want anybody to suffer forever...with no chance for parole...

God leaves the choice to individuals to make up their minds! You are not going to get any person to heaven by your will. Matter of fact, doing or saying nothing to anyone will automatically send them to hell.

Sorry if the gospel offends anyone, but the truth be told anyway; God is a righteous God, there is no sin in heaven. Only the righteous will have eternal life.
(All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags...Is.64:6)

No parole just like no purgatory is mention in the bible.
O, God is love; but God is also a consuming fire against all wickedness.

But God is also a merciful god; longsuffering to us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[bootlen]

Hvac, I totally understand. My son is a deputy sheriff and does a great job. But I am convinced he is not saved and refuses to talk about it. I am powerless to save him. But my Savior is not. I have to leave it to Him. So I pray for him everyday.

If I said, "Well, Eric is not saved so I don't want to go to Heaven either." What would I gain? Nothing. What would I lose? Everything. If I outlive Eric, he may get saved after I die. What then? If I am saved we are together. If I am not saved, we are not together.
If both of us not saved, we are still apart, even though we are both in hell.
It is simple logic. The best thing you can do for your kids is belong to Jesus. That gives them a fighting chance to be with you for eternity. If you're not saved, you'll never be with them.
Don't let worldly thinking get in the way of eternal life...for you or for your kids.

God does NOT want anyone to go to hell. He wants everyone to be saved and spend eternity with Him. But He does not force us to do so. Which ever way we go, it is of our own choosing.

You are quite correct...only God knows the heart of man. But He has said that those who belong to God love to be with God's people. I'm not making accusations...just giving you some perspective. It is possible you are closer to the right hand of God than Billy Graham...only God knows that. But if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, chances are it's a duck.

[player89]

Originally posted by hvac r us 2

Just doesnt sound right to me that an all caring and loving God would want anybody to suffer forever...with no chance for parole... [/B]

The Bible tells us that God "would that none perish, but that all should come to repentance..." (The complete scripture is found in II Peter 3:9).

The key word to me is repentance, followed by acceptance of Jesus Christ, and living a life acceptable unto God. A just God cannot allow sin to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, however, through repentance and remission of sins, they (the sins), are covered by his blood that was shed on the cross for us.

Each one of us is responsible for our own salvation, it is an individual choice we make; whether to follow Christ or not. If we refuse to follow him, God has to do what he said he would do, impart the separation from God for eternity.

That is why it is so important to "train up a child in the way he should go", so that "when he is old, he will not depart from it (the way)"

I believe God gives everyone every possible opportunity to get things right with him. After the physical death, however, that opportunity is gone (consider the rich man and Lazarus).

[arc8]

That is why it is so important to "train up a child in the way he should go", so that "when he is old, he will not depart from it (the way)"pr.22:6

If only Godly parents would heed this!

"Parents who wish to train their children in the way they should go, must go in the way which they would have their children go." This is a quote from a good parent that I know, a good example he is.

[player89]

"Parents who wish to train their children in the way they should go, must go in the way which they would have their children go."

This should probably be on every refrigerator door, bathroom mirror, and at every bedside of every parent!

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by player89
"Parents who wish to train their children in the way they should go, must go in the way which they would have their children go."

This should probably be on every refrigerator door, bathroom mirror, and at every bedside of every parent!

That is really a good quote, but let me ask this...

If a child is born and raised and was never introduced or taught about God, does that mean he will go to Hell even though he did not even have the opportunity to know God?

Seriously, what if in the world a child is raised where there is no established religion. No Bible to guide you. No record or knowledge of God at all...is that the childs fault for not knowing God? There are lots of places that were never introduced to Christianity, there could be lots of people in tribes worshiping monkeys and believing there whole life that it is correct. If nobody teaches you, how do you know you are wrong?

...does that mean these people are condemded forever even though they were never introduced to God?

That doesnt seem right does it? To be condemded even though you were never given a chance?

[bootlen]

Originally posted by hvac r us 2

Originally posted by player89
"Parents who wish to train their children in the way they should go, must go in the way which they would have their children go."

This should probably be on every refrigerator door, bathroom mirror, and at every bedside of every parent!

That is really a good quote, but let me ask this...

If a child is born and raised and was never introduced or taught about God, does that mean he will go to Hell even though he did not even have the opportunity to know God?

Seriously, what if in the world a child is raised where there is no established religion. No Bible to guide you. No record or knowledge of God at all...is that the childs fault for not knowing God? There are lots of places that were never introduced to Christianity, there could be lots of people in tribes worshiping monkeys and believing there whole life that it is correct. If nobody teaches you, how do you know you are wrong?

...does that mean these people are condemded forever even though they were never introduced to God?

That doesnt seem right does it? To be condemded even though you were never given a chance?

================================================== ==========

Excellent question, hvac. God has said that everyone will be given the opporunity to chose of his own will whether to live eternally or suffer eternal damnation (quite paraphrased but the concept is there). Romans 1 says that the glory of God is to be found in His creation. That means that in our hearts we know God exists, whether we admit it or not. If we admit it, he illumines us to more truth little by little as long as we are open to His enlightenment. He also says that everyone is without excuse. That we are all condemned but given the chance to make a learned decision about the issue. The more we are open to Him, the more we are taught...some more than others, depending on individual circumstances. He also says that to whom much is given, much is expected. That's why He commands us to go and spread the Gospel, which is the Truth of God's most glorious event in all of creation.

Bottom line...everyone has enough knowledge of God to make the decision to believe or to disbelieve.

Aside from that, we have to remember...God owes us absolutely zero except eternal damnation according to his perfect law. But He knew we could never live up to the law and that we were condemned by that law to damnation. So He sent His Son, Jesus, Who never, ever sinned, to take our punishment, thereby having paid our penalty and offering eternal life to all who will believe. THAT IS GRACE! A FREE GIFT, unearned by us but offered anyway.

[2story]

there is in each person a hole that can only be filled by a relationship with God our creator, not budha, allah or any one else. we were designed by God our creator, He has placed within us a desire for fellowship with Him, Adam and Eve enjoyed living without this void until they fell. We respond to this void in many ways, regliosity, vice, denial, faith. How do I KNOW? our creator left us a Book that has stood the test of time,this book is God revealing Himself to you and me. I grew up in the influence of Christianity, I rejected it as a young person, and then through God dealing with me I accepted it(Christ and all that i had been taught) as MY FAITH not anyone else's. God has written it on the hearts of all, a desire for peace, that peace is found in Christ, He said of himself I am the way.

I will stop preaching now great thread, great site. Awesome God!

[remember]

children need stories to fill the darkness;to reassure their doubts.

adults have stories of religion to keep them from being afraid.

the many varied stories of god and life and death are as different as the people and cultures who tell them.


if there is an entity so great as to fit the description of "god""the creator of everything",

than it would be beyond belief that that creator could care for any of his creations more or less than the others.
and if an entity did have favorites on such a superfical level(as to just proclaim his name,for salvation),that would be proof that entity is no god,no creator;just a cosmic huckster that may be in advance in evolution to us ,but still petty and the victim of pride.(that is the story of the ancients.our gods,created us in their image to work for them.we had the same faults and potentials.they were not the great creator of everything,but were in fact created by the creator of everything and as such that great creator is our lineage through these intermediaries,our gods.we are the son,they are the father,but we all belong to the "holy ghost".)I digress.

so all the (majority) people that have lived and died as something other than cristians,have the same birthright to an afterlife as anyone else.


even jesus christ was not a christian.nor his father or grandfather,mother ,etc.

his family were jews.

societies have always had stories of life after death.

the "christian" dogma has made stories of "heaven" ;than eventually there became stories of hell.

these are obviously stories for children.


the reality of comparitive study is that regardless of when a person lived or died,that small percentage of people that feel they have had an "afterdeath" experience,have remarkably similar stories to tell.


this is the mystical side of religions.


the ancients believed in reincarnation,immortality,attaining the realms of the gods.


christian/muslim dogma is just a new version of this old story.for judaism was the link for both of them to the mythology of past generations,peoples.


some feel that this life is really just a "larval" stage in the wheel of life.
we are "human becoming"

which is why religious leaders say to practice "the good life here",so as to be prepared for the good life to come after death.jesus,buddha,mohammed,whomever

but the stories that are thousands of years old and the ones from people waking up on operating tables today after flatlining,are remarkably similar.


and they all say,"don't worry,everything will be all right"
no explanation,"I just KNOW".

and they find that to waste a moment of life,bickering about things we don't comprehend,is sheer folly.

and begin to consume life with a passion.doing no things they feel "bad" for inside as it would injure the soul.
and loving life; for every minute and every day is an eternity and a gift.and a chance.




and those that have said this world of ours is just an illusion,are supported in the fact that everything in this physical universe that we can comprehend as matter and energy,is likely to be less than 10% of the actual make-up of the universe.

dark matter and dark energy make up @ 90% of everything,and we don't even know what it is.

maybe that is the realm we leap to when we lose our consciousness.for that dark energy and matter is "in us,around us,before and after us.

this universe may be just one of an infinite number.


jesus said,"Heaven is spread over the earth,but the eyes of men do not see it."

the sumerians said ,"the veil shall never be lifted,till the end of lives."

enjoy life.

this incarnation could be like a cosmic vacation into our universe.

for if we (our soul) is immortal,than 10,000 lifetimes is just time to learn,as a school child goes through his/her exercises. and there will be infinately more ....

till we merge again?

[Edited by remember on 07-29-2004 at 06:58 PM]

[bootlen]

What we see above, in remember's post, is the perception of Christianity held by someone who, unless he changes his heart, will spend eternity all alone in a place so dark as to defy a complete description; he will be in constant torment, grinding his teeth in agony, screaming in pain until he is totally exhausted, take a few deep breaths and scream some more, wishing he had given heed to what he had heard in this present life concerning Jesus Christ. He is in such turmoil right now that he wants to bring people down to his level of discomfort rather than open his mind and heart to truth.

Now, he is ticked off because he has read this post and heard more truth. And he will come up with some fairy tale to try to make what is posted here about him seem trivial. He may not post in this thread but post he will because, you see, I've tweeked a tender nerve...one that screams at him that he is wrong in his beliefs. Poor remember is blind and lost and refuses to acknowledge it. But soon...sooner than most of us realize...remember will look at us on his way to his final unresting place (unless he changes his heart), and he will fall on his knees and bow to King Jesus, procaim Him as Lord, and begin crying inconsolably. Such is the destiny of the lost.

[arc8]

children need stories to fill the darkness;to reassure their doubts.
adults have stories of religion to keep them from being afraid.
the many varied stories of god and life and death are as different as the people and cultures who tell them.
if there is an entity so great as to fit the description of "god""the creator of everything",
than it would be beyond belief that that creator could care for any of his creations more or less than the others.
and if an entity did have favorites on such a superfical level(as to just proclaim his name,for salvation),that would be proof that entity is no god,no creator;just a cosmic huckster that may be in advance in evolution to us ,but still petty and the victim of pride.(that is the story of the ancients.our gods,created us in their image to work for them.we had the same faults and potentials.they were not the great creator of everything,but were in fact created by the creator of everything and as such that great creator is our lineage through these intermediaries,our gods.we are the son,they are the father,but we all belong to the "holy ghost".)I digress.
so all the (majority) people that have lived and died as something other than cristians,have the same birthright to an afterlife as anyone else.
even jesus christ was not a christian.nor his father or grandfather,mother ,etc.
his family were jews.
societies have always had stories of life after death.
the "christian" dogma has made stories of "heaven" ;than eventually there became stories of hell.
these are obviously stories for children.
the reality of comparitive study is that regardless of when a person lived or died,that small percentage of people that feel they have had an "afterdeath" experience,have remarkably similar stories to tell.
this is the mystical side of religions.
the ancients believed in reincarnation,immortality,attaining the realms of the gods.
christian/muslim dogma is just a new version of this old story.for judaism was the link for both of them to the mythology of past generations,peoples.
some feel that this life is really just a "larval" stage in the wheel of life.
we are "human becoming"
which is why religious leaders say to practice "the good life here",so as to be prepared for the good life to come after death.jesus,buddha,mohammed,whomever
but the stories that are thousands of years old and the ones from people waking up on operating tables today after flatlining,are remarkably similar.
and they all say,"don't worry,everything will be all right"
no explanation,"I just KNOW".
and they find that to waste a moment of life,bickering about things we don't comprehend,is sheer folly.
and begin to consume life with a passion.doing no things they feel "bad" for inside as it would injure the soul.
and loving life; for every minute and every day is an eternity and a gift.and a chance.
and those that have said this world of ours is just an illusion,are supported in the fact that everything in this physical universe that we can comprehend as matter and energy,is likely to be less than 10% of the actual make-up of the universe.
dark matter and dark energy make up @ 90% of everything,and we don't even know what it is.
maybe that is the realm we leap to when we lose our consciousness.for that dark energy and matter is "in us,around us,before and after us.
this universe may be just one of an infinite number.
jesus said,"Heaven is spread over the earth,but the eyes of men do not see it."
the sumerians said ,"the veil shall never be lifted,till the end of lives."
enjoy life.
this incarnation could be like a cosmic vacation into our universe.
for if we (our soul) is immortal,than 10,000 lifetimes is just time to learn,as a school child goes through his/her exercises. and there will be infinately more ....
till we merge again?

This is one fairy tale I won't mention to my children and that goes for santa claus as well.

"Fundamentalists do believe the total, final and perfect revelation to man is the Bible. They believe as men get away from the Bible they become more unreliable in every area of life. Fundamentalists believe the Bible is absolute. If not, it is obsolete." - Dr. Don Boys, PhD.

It is easier to fall for anything than to stand for something.




[Edited by arc8 on 07-29-2004 at 10:09 PM]

[Irascible]

I haven't kept up on this whole thread. But with respect to those who believe so, I must strongly disagree. The Bible is VERY clear that the punishments of hell will vary based on the sins of those being punished. In referencing the Pharisees, in talking about Judas, in talking about Sodom and Gamorra, and even in parables Christ spoke of those that would receive more punishment than others.

If one had all eternity to sit in hell's torment, the difference in the severity of punishement would be moot. One times infinity or ten times infinity, either way it would be infinite pain. God is a God of law and justice. To receive infinite punishment for finite crimes would be unjust. And yes, despite our amazing capacity for evil it is still finite in its scope.

Furthermore, it is clear that the soul can be destroyed. Matthew 10:28 says "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." What would be the point of bringing up the destruction of one's soul if there was no chance of it being destroyed? Christ was not in the habit of bringing up stuff that would never happen just because he felt like it. Those who must suffer hell will do so according to their sins and then be wiped from existence.

[rob10]

Both Heaven and hell are eternal. We make the choice where we end up, not God. Salvation is the greatest gift of God. If we reject we are doomed for eternity. The only sin that will keep you from Heaven is denying Christ.

[Irascible]

OK Rob. I'll bite. :)

Where does it say in the Bible that one's soul will forever burn in hell? I've pointed to some very specific evidence that that's not the case and wonder if you have as equally compelling evidence to the contrary.

[rob10]

The bible points the fact that before Salvation we are enemies of God, children of peridition. After Salvation we are sealed with the Holy Spirit which is God himself in his third person. We become adopted children of God through our acceptance of Jesus death on the Cross. Those who reject Christ as their Savior remain with their master who is Satan for eternity. In Revelation, all of these with Satan are sealed in Hell.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by Irascible
OK Rob. I'll bite. :)

Where does it say in the Bible that one's soul will forever burn in hell? I've pointed to some very specific evidence that that's not the case and wonder if you have as equally compelling evidence to the contrary.

================================================== ==========

Ira, even though rob is a very extreme kind of guy which tends to make one disbelieve him (many times rightfully so :) ), he is quite correct in the eternity of hell and eternel damnation. I probably won't have time today but I'll look up Scripture that defines the eternality of punishment in hell.

[rob10]

Thanks for the backhanded compliment. :D :D :D

[Irascible]

Satan will indeed be locked away and the unsaved with him. As you know, hell was created for Satan and his demons. But the idea that the soul will be there in torment for all eternity? If you can find evidence of such a claim, it will be a stretched implication at best.

I've given you chapter and verse of where Jesus said that God can destroy the soul. He would not have bothered with such a statement if it were not going to happen. Furthermore I can give you exact chapter and verse on my examples where Jesus indicated that some will receive severe punishment and others less. The lesson being that hell's punishment will be proportionate to the sinner's crimes. Infinite pain by definition is infinite punishment. There can be no proportionality in such a scenario. Such torture would be in direct contradiction to Jesus's statements about some receiving many stripes and some few.

I await your chapter and verse. :)

[Irascible]

Your job is doubly hard. You not only have to come up with a verse that says a soul's punishment is forever. But you also have to tell me why Jesus said that God can destroy a soul if in reality he never will. You'll also have to explain to me how a just God would give infinite punishment for finite crimes - especially given the fact that Jesus clearly indicated different punishments for different unsaved sinners. There would be no difference in punishment if all punishment was infinite.

[arc8]

Where does it say in the Bible that one's soul will forever burn in hell? I've pointed to some very specific evidence that that's not the case and wonder if you have as equally compelling evidence to the contrary.

Did you know that the right to agree with others is not a problem in any society but it is the right to disagree that is crucial?

You have a very good question. I have no idea why the Lord mention that verse, but it was for a good reason.
There are many, I have heard, that believe there will be difference in the severity of punishement. I agree with them also.

Let's look at this passage: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. - Mt.25:46

I haven't looked up the meaning of the words everlasting and eternal. But they do mean a long time, if time mattered to God!

There is a rule referred as First Mentioned. Any where you first come to a bible principle first mentioned, then most likely that is what God intended.

For example: "And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man." - Ge.9:5,6
This is the first mention of capital punishment, which should be plainly simple to see and understand God's view on this subject. All other references will have to be studied and compared to this.

Ira, I will give it some thought on that verse above.

[2story]

Revelation Chapter 20.

[Irascible]

Matthew 25:46 simply means that the punishment is one that has eternal effect. It could be said that the death sentence here on Earth is an eternal sentence because your life is lost forever, even though the discomfort of jail and of the actual execution is a finite amount of time. Furthermore, not every Bible translates that verse the same way. There is significant evidence to suggest that the term translated "eternal" does not mean eternal. I have no idea who these folks (http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/EternalPunishmentNotTrueToGreek.html) are, but they seem to cover the topic well.

Add to that what second Thessalonians chapter one verses eight and nine say: "He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction..." As alluded to in the first sentence of this reply, it is the effect of the punishment that is eternal. That verse clearly states that it is the destruction that is eternal.

The verses that support a finite punishment are plain and they are many. One need not twist meanings or claim to not always know the meaning in order to support the idea of a finite punishment. What it comes down to is that I debate with the force of old church tradition more than I do a supportable doctrine. Church tradition is indeed a powerful force. It just isn't accurate in this case. The only reason I even bother to debate it is because I think it does a great disservice to unbelievers. It tells them that no matter how you lived your life without Christ, you will receive infinite pain for it.

Compared to eternity, our time on Earth is not even a grain of sand compared to an entire beach. Yet that church tradition would have me believe that God would punish the lost for 10,000 beaches worth of time for a single sin and that that would be just a warm up. Such a god would be sadistic and cruel. My God is no such thing. Such a punishment would have no justice or logic. My God is both just and logical.

[2story]

It tells them that no matter how you lived your life without Christ, you will receive infinite pain for it.

Whatever i do in an offering to God is filth. I deserve infinite pain because I am a sinner, my eternal being created by Him is fallen because of sin. Yes without Christ I will spend eternity seperated for God, because i am a sinner, With Christ, accepting his sacrifice of his son on my behalf, I will spend eternity with God, the place I was designed to be in the first place.

The Church is always correct when it proclaims Gods word. It is dogma that is so dangerous.

[Irascible]

Your premise relies on the idea that never ending torture IS the word of God. I still ask you to show me the scripture. The one pointed to so far is easily shown to not support never ending punishment. And there are numerous other verses that point to varied punishments and the eventual destruction of the soul. You must not only come up with this phantom scripture supporting infinite punishment, you must also debunk those other scriptures.

To deserve infinite pain one must commit infinite sin. God made it clear that in the time to come he will wipe all sin from existence. Sin itself will be limited and so will be the suffering the unsaved must go through before they are destroyed. I am not making light of hell. Their torment will still be horrific. But it will be limited. And since sin and corruption of the mind will be eliminated, those in hell will have a fully restored and complete sense of self-preservation. As much as they will hate the torment, they will hate just as much knowing that at its end they will no longer exist.

Again, if you insist that the word says something than say where. To repeat an unsupported mantra over and over is the very essence of dogma.

[Edited by Irascible on 07-30-2004 at 03:06 PM]

[2story]

Revalation 20 as stated before gives an outline of what is to come. Is this an irrelvant passage?

[hvac r us 2]

Let me see if I got this...

Are we now discussing what happens in hell?

You guys have to take it easy on me a little bit, I can't quote biblical shakshpere type passages...I am an average Joe you know?

Although passages may appear clear to you, to me they have more than one meaning.

You guys seem to be focused on what happens in hell, and I am more focused on trying to avoid going there! :)

Makes me wonder, just because you accept Christ cant be the only deciding factor right? I mean there has to be some bonus points for being a good person don't you think?

Think about it, if that was the case I could just be a hell raiser then before my death accept Christ and all is forgiven? Sound right?

How can there be no distinction between sin? sin is sin?

I dont know, maybe it's just me but I think a person that kills/Murder's somebody is a worse person than little ol me.

Seriously, what's the worst I do, have impure thoughts, stole a candy bar as a kid...doesnt seem like I should have the same fate as a person that leads a life of chrime.

Like I said, I am an average Joe. I love my family, I work, lift weights, watch footbal, drink beer, and curse when I am mad.

But...I care about animals, am respectful to nature and people, honest, caring, believe in God and raise my kids the same way...there has to be rewards for that.

IMHO that is logical! :)

[Irascible]

2story

Give me the specific verse. If the verse does not explicitly state that the lost are to be tormented forever, then give me the logic with which one can derive your conclusion from that verse. I did not respond to your suggestion previously because it's too vague.

Oh yeah, don't forget to debunk all those verses that say punishment will be measured according to sin. Don't forget to tell me why Jesus saw fit to tell me God can destroy the soul if he never will. Explain to me why sin, which is both finite in our ability to commit it and finite in even how long it will be allowed to exist, could deserve infinite punishment from a just God. Tell me why the verse I quoted from Thessalonians states that the eternal punishment is destruction. Yeah... tell me all that too. :)

hvac

I had actually intended to mention one of your points in my last reply. Namely, all this talk of the nature of hell is secondary to avoiding it to begin with.

Accepting Christ is the only factor in avoiding hell. Yes, even Hitler could have avoided hell had he truly accepted Christ before his death. Though don't misunderstand. That is not an invitation to live a wretched life and then recant at the last minute. It doesn't work that way. But the gift of salvation is a gift, nothing more. We can't earn our way in. The difference in how you live your life after having become a Christian manifests itself in the quality of your life here and in how many people you bring with you to heaven. I also believe that how you live your life as a Christian determines your measure of reward in heaven.

But I don't plan on debating that too. Debate is just too darned time consuming! :)

[rob10]

Only the rightous will enter into the presence of the Lord. We are only made rightous because of the sacrifice of Jesus blood on the cross which covers our sins. By accepting the gift of Salvation we ared covered by His Blood. An unsaced person cannot have Heaven. So tell me by scripture where they go. The Bible does not preach purgatory or limbo. Only some man made religions. BTW Do you remember what Jesus told the man that was on the cross next to him after he recognized him as the True Son of God?

[arc8]

Ira

I should start first with the Bible. Unless someone reads and studies one version of the bible, the argument is mute.
Why I read the KJV only;

God is unchangeable. God's word is unchangeable too. In Matthew 24:35, the Lord Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

Why would I accept changes to God's word in the form of different Bible versions? I've heard preachers and lay people say things like, "it's too hard to read" or "it doesn't properly reflect the true meaning of the original Greek". The issue about the original Greek sets my teeth on edge--which Greek? There are Greek manuscripts galore, including the corrupted manuscripts that the Roman Catholic religion uses. The snide remarks and attacks against this utterly reliable text are unfounded.

The Bible is not supposed to read like a fairy tale--Peter said, "for we have not followed cunningly devised fables" [II Peter 1:16]. The words of the Authorized King James are not laborious to me, they are beautiful and full of God's power. Even the world knows it--the Authorized King James has been listed on Norton Anthology's list of "the world's best literature" for decades.

The new versions have come up with some dangerous changes to the scriptures.

Look at this change in the NIV:

John 3:16, For God so loved the world that He gave his one and only Son...
The authorized King James says,

John 3:16, For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son.

In this instance, the NIV changes the scriptures by saying that Jesus is God's "one and only" Son instead of His only begotten Son. This change causes a contradiction in the word of God because God has more than one son according to both the King James (Genesis 6:2, Job 1:6, John 1:12) and NIV (Genesis 6:2).

I do not buy the line that the inerrant word of God is found only in the originals-- which nobody has. I know that God has the power to preserve His word and that he wouldn't leave us out in the dark with an "imperfect" translation. In the authorized King James Version God assembled, and moved with His Spirit, a team of some of the world's best scholars to translate His word into the world's most popular language, English.

The complete translator's notes of the Authorized King James scholars are not included in today's publishings. This is unfortunate because these notes say a lot about these men-- they were humble, loved the word of God, loved the King, were berated by the Catholic religion, and they desired a translation for the common man who was kept in darkness. Some of the translators where killed for their faith. This book was forged in blood, sweat, and tears.

How many classes have you been in where every student has a different textbook? None. It just doesn't make good sense on a very practical level. We all need to be on the same sheet of music so that we are in harmony. Let's not confuse each other.

Let's not accept the premise that the tried and true Authorized King James is somehow outdated and is to be replaced by dozens of new translations. A standard test determined the Authorized KJV reading level to be 5th grade because it contains mostly one and two-syllablic words making it one of the easiest to read. People have been getting saved by reading it for a long, long time. We know that it contains the Word of life whereby we live and grow.

Satan knows that in a generation we won't uniformly quote the scriptures. Imagine ten people with ten different translations trying to recite a psalm together. Confusion. Satan knows that many newborn babes in Christ will not have the real milk that they need in order to grow because they'll have a watered down version of the truth. He figures that if he can't kill the babes, he'll do the next best thing-stunt their growth. At the same time the world will point to Christianity and say, "They don't even have a definitive word of God. Anybody can write a Bible." They already say that the Bible was "just written by men".

So, first let's get on the same page before we go on with other doctrines. I will be looking into the destruction of the soul doctrine. I never thought it was that important, but I do want to know the mind of God!

Thanks for your patience.

[Irascible]

It sounds like you're disagreeing with me in that last reply. But there was nothing in your last reply that I disagree with or that counters what I said. I'm simply stating that for those who will go to hell, it will be a finite period of time and then they will be destroyed forever. I pointed to both logic and scripture to back that point. The notion that people in hell will be there for eternity is an old church tradition that I see no scriptural backing for.

You obviously skimmed. You have a bad habit of doing that. :p I NEVER said that people won't be going to hell!

[rob10]

You are saying that people go to hell then their souls are destroyed and then they no longer exist?

[Irascible]

You're obviously very informed. However, I was not debating which translation was the most correct. If I were, I would ask you how it is that King James managed to get it perfectly right and all others failed. Was the king divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit just as the authors of the original text were? If so, and if we know that God speaks to all of man through many languages, then where are the hundreds of other translations that were also each divinely inspired? If so, then each of those hundreds of translations could not possibly conflict with each other. Even one point of conflict would invalidate that translation.

As you can see, you've created an impossible standard. If one believes that the original text was divinely inspired but that the translations are of men, then it can explain a lot. While all major translations were done by those who served God, there ARE a few contradictions here and there. This can be easily explained by the fact that those translating are fallible despite their good intentions. Yet you propose that King James was not fallible in his work.

If so, he would have to of been divinely inspired. If so, God would have to of divinely inspired hundreds more translations to be fair. Which are those? LOL! It didn't happen that way. Or do you believe God only revealed himself the original authors and then King James and then no one else? If so, what about the people that didn't know Greek, Aramaic and Latin and who also didn't have the benefit of the King James Version? Did they not have the benefit of a real translation?

It's all rather silly in my opinion. That the KJV should be the one and only true translation leaves billions of others high and dry. God doesn't work that way. He works through his servants, fallible as they may be. And the translations were of his servants. A few of those failings crept into the translation.

But like I said, I don't want to debate translations! It's too time consuming. :) Just show me where the Bible says the lost will be tormented forever. If you insist on that one verse already quoted as indeed meaning eternity, then Christ contradicts himself even in your most accurate KJV.

[Irascible]

That's what I'm saying. The scriptures I quoted support that idea. The severity and/or duration of that punishment will be according to their sins. Then they will be wiped from existence.

[rob10]

Interesting. I've never heard it taught that way. Fundamentalist, like myself tend to disagree with you about that point. Logically, your argument then supports a limited amount of time in Heaven because of the good deeds performed by inviduals. This is not correct either. The problem is that God is supernatural and cannot be put into a mortal logical box.

[R12rules]

Ira, if you want to ask a question .... go ahead.
But if you just want to share your opinion. Ten please have the decency to say that is what your intent is.
Dont waste our time by first leading people on then changing your words later on.
That is called: "Bait and Switch"!
It is a game to some, but to others it is simply a waste of time and energy.


If your point is to intellectualize the Gospel, then your wasting even your own time.
Go run some service calls. At least you'll be doing somebody some good.

The Gospel cannot be understood with your intellect.

I will admit, there are an awful amount of knowledgeable people who can talk up a storm about the Bible this ... and the Bible that.
They can spout all sorts of good sounding stuff.

But unless they belong to Jesus, personally, they are just empty words.

It has been stated here in this very thread what is important to knowing God. This is not a mystery. Yet some have chosen to obviously ignore those words of wisdom and in stead have debate over philisophical issues.

I am not pointing a finger at you nor anyone else here, specifically.
I am just stating a fact.

I dont care if you read the KJV or the NIV or the NAS or the AS. Or even the NKJV!!!
God can, He does and He will continue to speak to HIS PEOPLE who love and honor and respect HIM!!!

And NO, He does NOT have to be fair and give His divine inspiration to hundreds of souls in order to be right about what went down in history!
Because He is God and we are NOT!!!
He dont have to follow our rules! We have to follow His Rules!
If we do we will be blest! If we dont we will be cursed!


So go ahead ... argue with God. See where it gets you.

That would be like saying you dont like Du Pont so your gonna do things your way. So what? Who gives a rip?

Go ahead and dont obey the guidelines Du Pont lays down for handling their blended refrigerants!
Go ahead and mix 134A with mineral oil! Go ahead and add some POE in there just to satisfy your conscience. See if that does you any good!


Only difference being ...when you break the rules with Du Pont, your only messing with a sealed system. No big deal. Nothing affecting Eternity!

Not so when you mess around claiming to speak for God!
Not so when you mess around claiming to challenge His rules and His way of doing things!
Also, you may very well be stumbling some folks who are not very strong in their faith.
If you cause those to stumble, .... well .... I wouldnt want to be in your shoes when God comes to settle up the score.
And He CERTAINLY will!!!

[Irascible]

Argue with the Bible Rob. All the scriptures I quoted point to the inescapable conclusion that the souls of the unsaved will eventually be destroyed. All the tradition you've been taught doesn't relieve you of the responsibility to test the teachings of others against the word. So test away! Being the eternal skeptic, I'm always asking myself if those trying to teach me are teaching the word or just their opinions.

And logically the Bible’s argument does NOT support a limited time in heaven. It would be unjust to punish infinitely for finite crimes. There can be no question of that. And it is still just AND logical if God should choose to reward us beyond what we deserve. Such reward is characteristic of His grace.

God is indeed supernatural but his reasoning and logic on many things is not only NOT beyond us, it is given to use plainly in the Bible. He would not have invited us to reason with Him if we were not able.

[Irascible]

I simply stated that hell is not an eternal punishment for the unbeliever. I quoted several verses to back that up. You get that? I quoted scriptures. Since the scriptures are of the Bible, they are not of me. Others disagree on my views. But none of us questioned each other's tactics or motives in any meaningful way until now. We have all been gentlemen in this matter up till now.

Your tactic is a common one and I'm sure you don't even see it. The topic for the last bunch of replies has been solely regarding hell's nature and the scriptures and YES even opinions that back up said nature. As is so often the case when one party gets annoyed and/or outclassed, they attempt to make the debater the topic of scrutiny instead of his ideas. You have attempted to make ME the issue and I do not appreciate it. Your questioning of my tactics is baseless and I mean that literally. This bait and switch non-sense is diversionary at best and insulting at worst. I will hear no more of your subtle insults.

As I stated in another thread some place, I have resolved to never repeat my flame wars of the past. They do me no good and they do not glorify Christ. To that end you have seen no insults given back to you. I believe you to be a sincere Bible believing Christian and a hard worker. But at the same time I invite you to speak to me no further on this subject. If you insist on continuing to question me as though you had cause or right, I will take my leave of this thread. Given the time consuming nature of these debates, you'd frankly be doing me a favor.

[Edited by Irascible on 07-31-2004 at 01:28 AM]

[Irascible]

I suggest you read The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren. The author covers many things including the diverse nature of Christians and the diversity of their walk with God and how they praise.

I do not recall which titles he gives each of our types, but it is clear that we are different types. I see in your posts a sense of unquestioning wonder at God's awesome nature. I sense the praise in them and I'm glad for you. However, there is a tendency in each of us to assume that our way is best. Do not diminish my way of appreciating God. I take great delight in His precision and logic. I love the fact that he brings order to my life and makes sense of chaos. Have you not seen mathematicians take great delight and even pleasure in the complexity and precision that lie within the formulas that describe the universe? MANY great scientists have testified that the deeper they got into those formulas, the more they saw God. Those scientists who would call themselves Christians worship and delight in God for his logic and precision.

That is me. I do not let go of my questions. I demand answers. God is not obligated to give them, but he indulges nonetheless. You know as well as I how Jesus loved the doubters as much as the rest. Can it go too far? Of course. Can your tendency to do the opposite go too far? Absolutely. We are both gifted in different ways. It has been confirmed to me on many occasions that rational thought is one of my gifts. Don't question me for using it.

Since the nature of hell topic has been beaten to death, and since it will likely degrade further, I will see you guys later in other threads.

[Edited by Irascible on 07-31-2004 at 01:48 AM]

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by Irascible
That's what I'm saying. The scriptures I quoted support that idea. The severity and/or duration of that punishment will be according to their sins. Then they will be wiped from existence.

Although I can't quote Bible passages as some, something in the back of my mind tells me this is right, sort of...

I have always felt a God that is all knowing, all caring and all loving doesnt want anybody to go to hell, and I don't think he would keep anybody there forever.

Isnt it possible that everybody goes to Heaven? Isn't it possible that people go to hell to be punished for there sins for a certain duration then returned to Heaven?

I don't know...just a thought....

[hvac r us 2]

Hey Ira,

Dont let one persons comments get you rattled.
I for one enjoy reading your posts.

I too feel everything needs to be questioned and explained. Just because something is stated doesnt make it a fact, I need facts not opinions.

Just because passages from the Bible can be quoted, doesnt make it a fact either in my mind. The Bible also should be questioned. I am not saying it is wrong, but to blindly follow anyhting without question could be a fools game.

Again back to my original post, isn't it possible the Bible is wrong? That over thousands of years it has manifested and been altered so much there may be little or "no" facts left?

This is where common sense and logic comes into the picture. God gave you a brain to reason and to think...I expect he wants you to use it.

And...just so everybody dont get there panties in a bunch, this is solely my opinionn! :)

[rob10]

You are either in or out. Without Salvation you dont have the adoption into the family of God. The only sin that will buy you hell is the one of rejection of the free Gift of Salvation. Without Salvation a person suffers eternal seperation from God. As I've stated before, before Christ we are in bondage to Satan. After Salvation, we are a bondservant in agape love to God. Even a person who lives the utmost moral life but does not accept Christ faces eternal seperation.

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by rob10
Even a person who lives the utmost moral life but does not accept Christ faces eternal seperation.

I agree for the most part, but...

Again I ask the question. If I live my life lying, cheating, stealing, raping and murder...but before my execution proclaim my acceptance for Christ...I go to Heaven?

I cant be the only person that has a hard time with this right?

[rob10]

Originally posted by hvac r us 2
Hey Ira,

Dont let one persons comments get you rattled.
I for one enjoy reading your posts.

I too feel everything needs to be questioned and explained. Just because something is stated doesnt make it a fact, I need facts not opinions.

Just because passages from the Bible can be quoted, doesnt make it a fact either in my mind. The Bible also should be questioned. I am not saying it is wrong, but to blindly follow anyhting without question could be a fools game.

Again back to my original post, isn't it possible the Bible is wrong? That over thousands of years it has manifested and been altered so much there may be little or "no" facts left?

This is where common sense and logic comes into the picture. God gave you a brain to reason and to think...I expect he wants you to use it.

And...just so everybody dont get there panties in a bunch, this is solely my opinionn! :) After we accept Christ a supernatural miracle happens. We are given the Holy Spirit, the Third person of the Godhead to live within us. He becomes or interperter of the scripture. This is where the lost who think they are saved get frustrated. They are limited to human reasoning.

[rob10]

Originally posted by Irascible
I suggest you read The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren. The author covers many things including the diverse nature of Christians and the diversity of their walk with God and how they praise.



[Edited by Irascible on 07-31-2004 at 01:48 AM] My results came back being a strong Cleric.

[hvac r us 2]

[/B][/QUOTE]After we accept Christ a supernatural miracle happens. We are given the Holy Spirit, the Third person of the Godhead to live within us. He becomes or interperter of the scripture. This is where the lost who think they are saved get frustrated. They are limited to human reasoning. [/B][/QUOTE]

I can't beleive I am taking advice(at least you have me thinking about it) on religion from a guy that post naked pictures of his wife on the internet! :) LOL

[Irascible]

Rob,

That makes sense. The problem that results when those who enjoy logic go too far is that they can be cold and without love. That's me. I imagine that perhaps the weakness of a cleric that goes to far is that he would preach the extremes and with some hostility. You know. A "fire and brimstone" type taken to extremes. Don't ask me where I get that. Certainly no one here does that... ahem. :p

hvac,

Regarding the Bible's accuracy through the ages, I believe it to be very accurate. As you know, it is the most scrutinized book in history. I heard a person speak once who was a bit of an expert in historical literature. He described the standards by which various authors' writings are vetted as accurate and truly of that author. Obviously they compare how much deviation in text there is from one ancient manuscript to another. Another standard they use is how removed a manuscript is from when it was originally written. Some of the oldest manuscripts from some of our great philosophers are actually copies that were written hundreds of years after the author died.

In all those standards the Bible excels. I don't remember all the authors it was compared to, but Plato was one author who the Bible easily exceeded in these standards. There is no great controversy as to how true today's publications of Plato’s work are to the original text. There should be no great controversy regarding the Bible either. Obviously there will be some minor inaccuracies in translation. But on the whole most Bibles are very true to the Word.

In terms of heaven and hell, you have to realize the standard of perfection that exists. Imagine if Saddam was to moralize that he was a good man because he only killed a million people as where Hitler is a bad man because he was responsible for the deaths of tens of millions. Any sane person would think that standard absurd. Both men are or were incredibly wicked. To God, our "petty sins" carry the same penalty as murder. Without acceptance of Christ both result in eternal separation from God.

Also keep in mind that Jesus spoke of our thoughts being as sinful as action. All of us, even if it was just when we were young, have had situations where we burned with anger in our minds and quite literally (if only for a moment) wanted someone dead. From God's point of view that makes us murderers. The same goes for adultery and many other wretched sins. YES, there is a difference in sins in how they affect our life on Earth. But in terms of being guilty of violating God's law, there is none. It's an all or nothing standard which is why all humans will go to hell if they don't accept Christ.

As far as getting rattled goes, I have had too much experience with flame wars and I don't want anymore of it. Once someone starts with the personal insults, the other person usually responds in kind and the whole thing degrades horribly. I was annoyed to be sure, but my primary objective was to nip it in the bud. If that's "rattled" then that's OK. It's better to cut converstations short once they reach that level than to respond in kind and drag yourself down.

[Irascible]

Yeah, that is a bit of a conundrum hvac. One of my unposted thoughts in this thread was "Rob... YOU are a Christian???". So now it's posted. You have to admit Rob, there is a disparity in your professed beliefs and some of your actions. There's two Robs, so to speak.

Given your professed beliefs, if there are actually (I can't and wouldn't bother confirming) such pictures of your wife that you posted then you know damn well they should come down this second. The same is true of when you get insulting. I don't say this from some high horse. You might have seen what I did in the past with duct cleaners? Well that ain't nothing. I'm as guilty of wretched sin as the next guy. But as a Christian I am commanded to respond when called on it.

[Edited by Irascible on 07-31-2004 at 11:49 AM]

[hvac r us 2]

As far as getting rattled goes, I have had too much experience with flame wars and I don't want anymore of it. Once someone starts with the personal insults, the other person usually responds in kind and the whole thing degrades horribly. I was annoyed to be sure, but my primary objective was to nip it in the bud. If that's "rattled" then that's OK. It's better to cut converstations short once they reach that level than to respond in kind and drag yourself down. [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree, I get the same way where I just dont even want to be bothered.

I believe everybody has a right to there opinion, and to express there opinion. And sometimes opinions can offend people. But I dont see the need to personaly attack anybody.

Hey, you and I have went round and round a few times...but I think we both understood it was nothing personal. Still tried to show respect, personal insults show no respect.

Personal attacks makes me want to go back to my younger days and open a can of whoop A$$ on someone...but I think I have grown... :)

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by Irascible


YES, there is a difference in sins in how they affect our life on Earth. But in terms of being guilty of violating God's law, there is none. It's an all or nothing standard which is why all humans will go to hell if they don't accept Christ.


Those sentences have made more sense to me than just about anything written in this thread so far.

I have to give that some more thought...sounds right though.

Still have problems with Heaven/Hell and all eternity stuff...but hey, baby steps right!

[bobby7388]

Originally posted by Irascible
As you know, there are various laws in science. A biology teacher of mine in 9th grade taught that one of the laws of biology is that life must come from life. It was an interesting conundrum for her because she believed in humanistic evolution. In any event, if life must come from life then we can draw conclusions from that. The simple fact that I see a living creature in front of me is evidence enough that that creature spawned from another living creature. I need not have absolute proof of that creature's origins to know that it indeed owes its existence to another living creature.

The fact that order never stems from chaos is as much law as life must stem from life. Given that, the magnificently complex order that is evident in our own bodies speaks very plainly that it was designed by a higher being. I call him God. You can call him chopped liver if you wish. But to deny the self-evident logic that we must have been created by a higher being is to believe that order flowed from chaos. If you believe that, you may as well believe that jumbling a bunch of words randomly will eventually produce a Stephen King novel. Run a word randomizing program for all eternity and it would never happen. Intelligent design, be it in a book or a body, requires an intelligent designer.

So yeah, I'll stick to my usage of the word "evidence". :)


It would have been natural for the workings of the universe to remain firmly in the realm of religion. Any explanation of the way it all evolved had to allow for man's place in the order of things, and had to acknowledge- but not dare to challenge- the role of the gods. Within these constraints, explanations began to emerge. Over the centuries there have been some highly imaginative ideas, often beautiful and elaborate, but rarely based on anything you could call a scientific approach.

The world, or for that matter the universe is always in a state of chaos always trying to find a perfect equalibriam.
Weather is created through chaos, quantum physics rule by chaos. The "Theory of Relativity" tries to set order through chaos, but as we know it can't due to it's incompatability with quantum mechanics.
Order flows from chaos, or chaos flows from order is a misnomer. There is no definitive application to say either is true, but both are.
If you believe in String Theory (the quantitive theory) then you must say that there are at least 11 dimensions, but we only cognitively see 3(4 with gravity).

As for Evidence, umm!
The times will dictate what people want to believe, be it biology or theology.
Some hundred years ago people believed that the world was flat, but does that mean that we have too today. Also it was believed that Earth was the center of the universe, again beliefs change as knowledge grows.
Life comes from life is a solid theory, but we also thought that life needed the sun to florish, tube worms proved that wrong. Evidence? well that's in the eye of the beholder.

Life must have come from somewhere, but to put your blind faith into one idea is elementary at best.
So by completing sentences into paragraphs and thus trying to convey your beliefs into truths doesn't prove anything.
Factual proof versus fictional faith doesn't a life make.

So it is known, I am a confirmed Catholic. Religious classes brought about more questions than answers.
And if my god doesn't understand that he created me as such then something is definitly wrong in Camelot.
I believe that god wanted us to question, if not he would not have created such a complex brain, and I also believe that if one is good in thought and action then they'll reap the rewards if there is an after life.

[Edited by bobby7388 on 07-31-2004 at 01:09 PM]

[remember]

bootlen


what tweaks a nerve

is your conviction that you know the truth.

since none of us are dead;none of us know the truth.


but instead of seeing the evidence of nature,as what has come before,and fitting into the complex web of experiences of innumerable people and cultures and religions,


you are guilty of the sin of pride,in believing YOU know the mind of god.

and basing your arrogance on how closely(though uncritically)you can look at an unreliable,untennable,non-credible slice of the spectrum of that experience..

[Irascible]

Sheesh. Would the people who insist on calling other people arrogant and whatever else at least provide examples of their accusations? One correct thing Bobby said or implied was that simply stating a belief doesn't prove it. If you can't provide examples of your allegations then it's more likely that you're simply irritated or even intimidated by the views of others. Since you have nothing substantive to counter those beliefs with, you name call.

In other words, put up or shut up.

And sorry remember, but my or bootlen's or anyone else's belief that we have found truth is NOT arrogance. If you don't believe you have enough information to draw conclusions about God or creation or whatever, that is your right. But this amateur psychoanalyst hour that you and others are treating us to is nothing but the precursor to a flame war. The “ideology of the undecided” is NOT superior to all others. You don't know our motivations and have no call to claim it is arrogance. IF you THINK you do, provide an example. The example given, that bootlen dares to believe he knows the truth, is no example at all.

[Edited by Irascible on 07-31-2004 at 02:13 PM]

[arc8]

You're obviously very informed. However, I was not debating which translation was the most correct. If I were, I would ask you how it is that King James managed to get it perfectly right and all others failed. Was the king divinely inspired by the Holy Spirit just as the authors of the original text were? If so, and if we know that God speaks to all of man through many languages, then where are the hundreds of other translations that were also each divinely inspired? If so, then each of those hundreds of translations could not possibly conflict with each other. Even one point of conflict would invalidate that translation.

Suffice to say, each language translation is of God. All translation may or may not be of God. Depending on the greek text used or translated from.

I am referring to the different versions within the same languages. The KJV1611 is of the textus receptus and the other versions are from the Sinaiticus and Vaticanus which many say are corrupt but there are those that say no way (my paraphrase).
Did you know that the blood of the Lord Jesus is omitted 15 times? from the other versions of the Bible.
If each versions are different, the meanings and intents, then how can they be reliable? Which verses are divine? and which are not?

As you can see, you've created an impossible standard. If one believes that the original text was divinely inspired but that the translations are of men, then it can explain a lot. While all major translations were done by those who served God, there ARE a few contradictions here and there. This can be easily explained by the fact that those translating are fallible despite their good intentions. Yet you propose that King James was not fallible in his work.

I believe God can produce a complete(perfect) bible regardless of sinful men writing it.
P.S. God promises to preserve his word. God promises to use his word as a witness against us. How could he if there are different meanings. God is not the Author of confusion.

If so, he would have to of been divinely inspired. If so, God would have to of divinely inspired hundreds more translations to be fair. Which are those? LOL! It didn't happen that way. Or do you believe God only revealed himself the original authors and then King James and then no one else? If so, what about the people that didn't know Greek, Aramaic and Latin and who also didn't have the benefit of the King James Version? Did they not have the benefit of a real translation?

Read books, historical ones. You would see that there was some translations already, but not a complete bible. Mostly the New Testament only.

It's all rather silly in my opinion. That the KJV should be the one and only true translation leaves billions of others high and dry. God doesn't work that way. He works through his servants, fallible as they may be. And the translations were of his servants. A few of those failings crept into the translation.

I wouldn't consider God being too puny that he couldn't have translations for all. Maybe not in our time. God has set his timetable though.

But like I said, I don't want to debate translations! It's too time consuming. Just show me where the Bible says the lost will be tormented forever. If you insist on that one verse already quoted as indeed meaning eternity, then Christ contradicts himself even in your most accurate KJV.

The bible may seem to contradict itself as you said, but it's just a little study that needs to be done, so give me time!
Here's a thought; some call this eternal death. Now if I can only figure what eternal means. I guess forget about the old english dictionary in what it means. I might as well forget about the meaning of the word "destruction", who really knows what it means?

Maybe next time I will have somewhat of an answer.





[Edited by arc8 on 07-31-2004 at 02:36 PM]

[Irascible]

A thoughtful reply Arc. Even though I don't agree with all of it at least you have maintained a civil manner about it. Too many of these conversation end up being:

Person A: "I believe X"
Person B: "I believe Y."
Person A: "You're stupid."

LOL! It seems childish when it's put that way, and that's exactly what it is. As soon as some people run out of intellectual steam, they use their emotional steam. Some people run out sooner than others. :)

[hvac r us 2]

Some of this is starting to make sense to me...

Let me see if I got this, sins that are committed although will make your life hard, will not determine if you go to Heaven or Hell.

Only people that have a relationship with God, will go to Heaven.

Sounds right...

I am curious though...why do Christians pray for people that have past on?

If the only way to get to Heaven is to know God, and they didnt do that and past away, what good would it do to pray for them? I have been to more than one funeral where everybody is praying for the person that has past on. But if the above is true, why bother?

Is there fate already sealed?

[rob10]

Some denominations and false religions prey(not pray) on the grief of their following. Catholic hierarchy in past centuries have made up fairy tales that if people give enough money to the Catholic Church that it will pray their loved ones out of purgatory or limbo thereby avoiding eternal damnation.

[rob10]

Originally posted by hvac r us 2

Originally posted by rob10
Even a person who lives the utmost moral life but does not accept Christ faces eternal seperation.

I agree for the most part, but...

Again I ask the question. If I live my life lying, cheating, stealing, raping and murder...but before my execution proclaim my acceptance for Christ...I go to Heaven?

I cant be the only person that has a hard time with this right? If the Holy Spirit has convicted them of their lossness and they have accepted Christ as their savior they gain Heaven. I too believe that there is certain levels of reward in Heaven and I for one will probably be on a lower tier.

[rob10]

You may have a legitimate stand on what you stated about a non-eternal hell. I will do some praying and studying on the subject.

[rob10]

Originally posted by Irascible
Yeah, that is a bit of a conundrum hvac. One of my unposted thoughts in this thread was "Rob... YOU are a Christian???". So now it's posted. You have to admit Rob, there is a disparity in your professed beliefs and some of your actions. There's two Robs, so to speak.

Given your professed beliefs, if there are actually (I can't and wouldn't bother confirming) such pictures of your wife that you posted then you know damn well they should come down this second. The same is true of when you get insulting. I don't say this from some high horse. You might have seen what I did in the past with duct cleaners? Well that ain't nothing. I'm as guilty of wretched sin as the next guy. But as a Christian I am commanded to respond when called on it.

[Edited by Irascible on 07-31-2004 at 11:49 AM] Paul states that we are working out our Salvation one day at a time. This means we are growing from babes to mature Christians more each day. I just happen to be in my "terrible twos" in spiritual age. :D :D :D

[hvac r us 2]

I too believe that there is certain levels of reward in Heaven and I for one will probably be on a lower tier. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, something tells me I also will be seated at the table next to the kitchen door, I'm guessing I wont be in the VIP section.

Funny you should mention about money and the Catholic church as I know all this to well from my years of strict Catholic upbringing.

I remember our Priest would always have to take time off to go get dried out, my Mom would send him a get well card! LOL Fine example he was...

I remember when the Catholic church came out with a list of new moral sins...how can they determine what a moral sin is?

I liked the one that said cheating on taxes is a moral sin, wonder why that is...lets see, if I am supposed to give X amount of money to the church based on what I make, and my taxes say I make less, the church gets less...interesting.

[rob10]

That some "religions" have kept people away from the Truth.

[rob10]

The Catholics are afraid that if you cheat on your taxes you will cheat on your obligation to the church.

[rob10]

Originally posted by remember
bootlen


what tweaks a nerve

is your conviction that you know the truth.

since none of us are dead;none of us know the truth.


but instead of seeing the evidence of nature,as what has come before,and fitting into the complex web of experiences of innumerable people and cultures and religions,


you are guilty of the sin of pride,in believing YOU know the mind of god.

and basing your arrogance on how closely(though uncritically)you can look at an unreliable,untennable,non-credible slice of the spectrum of that experience.. He does have the mind of God because the Holy Spirit inhabits him. It leads him to all Truth.

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by rob10
The Catholics are afraid that if you cheat on your taxes you will cheat on your obligation to the church.


Maybe that is not what they meant...but can you think of any other reason cheating on your taxes would be a moral sin? :)
What do they care if you cheat on your taxes? Does that make you a lesser Christian?
Seriously, who should be able to judge you on how you live your life other than God?
I dont need to preach what a good Christian I am, actions speak louder than words. Besides, God knows the heart and what I do and think when nobody is around.
Nobodys perfect, what differance does it make if Rob posts some pic of his wife? Does that make him a lesser Christian? I say no!
Sin is sin right? I have witnessed some of you using curse words on this thread, and proclaim to be Christians. Does that make you any less of a Christian because you used a curse word? Seems to me you are just as guily as Rob.
By the way Rob, e-mail some of these untouched pics so I can see what we are talking about (you know for research purposes) :D

I guess what I am trying to say is, just like in your heart you know there is a God, in your heart you know right from wrong.

I ask a lot of questions, but in my heart I know I am a good person that believes and trust God...and for that I will get rewarded.

[rob10]

LMAO :D :D

[Irascible]

One's Christian status is not at issue when it comes to unbecoming behavior. After all, there's a reason we need saving. Our spirit is reborn but our body is not... yet. So we must fight the evil nature.

However, while our saved status is not determined by day to day behavior it IS reflected in that behavior. If God's nature is growing within us, our evil nature has to be shrinking.

So no, I am not surprised by the bad stuff Rob did (or my own past bad deeds) nor does it put his salvation in jeopardy. However, my first contact with Rob and for a short time 100% of what I saw from Rob was not "wholesome" to say the least. And if Rob is to be truthful, I'll bet the time has long past since he should have graduated from the terrible twos. My surprise at his admission of faith shouldn't be surprising.

The Bible is clear that we are to ACTIVELY hold our fellow Christians accountable for their behaviors in a way that we are not called to regarding unbelievers. So yes, that WAS an invitation to give me the smack down if I get out of hand on the forum. Conversely I now know I can give you two the smack down as well. :D

[rob10]

Where did you end up on the personality test?

[Irascible]

I didn't finish the book. :eek:

I've never been much of a book reader. But I mostly definitely got through the part about the varied ways in which Christians worship and relate to God, which is what I was referencing to another poster in this thread.

[bootlen]

First, remember, Rob10 is quite correct in his defense of me. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit teaches us a bit of the mind of God. Second, post where I claimed to know the mind of God in it's entirety or in part. You are very good at making accusations without "putting up". You know the rest of the axiom.

Ira, first go to James 2:10. It says, "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it." (NIV) So no matter how "finite" our sin, we are guilty of "infinite" sin. God's edict, not mine. Next go to Matthew 25:31-46. I know vs. 46 was quoted before on this thread but you must look at the context for accurate assessment. Jesus tells of those who rejected Christ, or His representatives and the punishment that follows. Is not giving to the poor an "infinite sin"? It is when put in context with the whole Bible when James 2:10 is considered. And they go on to their eternal punishment in vs. 46. Their punishment is eternal. Not just punishment, but "THEIR punishment" is eternal.
The word you refer to as the soul being destroyed by God, in the original Greek, actually does not mean annhilation of the soul but to be sent to perdition or the place of eternal punishment. The word "destroy" in this case is a reference to an ongoing destruction...not a finite one. You have to remember that words in English are very poor excuses for a literal translation of Greek. So many times we have only one word that the Greeks had several words each with different definitions, eg., "I love my aunt"; "I love my teacher"; I love my wife"; "I love my kids"; the Greeks have a different word for each use of the word love for those sentences listed above.

hvac, Scripture is clear that once we die without salvation, there is no more opportunity to be saved.

Now it is getting late and my brain is about to strike if I don't give it some down time. And I simply have to get another computer soon. This one crashes about every 3rd time I get on the net. This is the second attempt to post this stuff. My fingers are wron out, too. Im sta rt ing tomake tooma ny mist akes. bye

[Edited by bootlen on 08-01-2004 at 11:40 PM]

[rob10]

With boot about "destruction"

[arc8]

Here's more verses:

Eternal damnation. Mk.3:29

Resurrection of damantion. Jo.5:28-29

Unquenchable fire. Mt.3:12

Everlasting destruction. 2Th.1:9 Now how can destruction be everlasting?

Everlasting fire. Mt.18:8

Everlasting punishment. Mt.25:46 Is it really everlasting? and punishment being everlasting?

The judgment. Mt.5:21-22 There will be one.

danger of hell fire. Mt.5:22 There's fire in hell.

that leadeth to destruction. Mt.7:13 There's a place where destruction is.

the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of earth. Mt.12:40 This is a place called hell, not the lake of fire yet.
BTW, Good Friday cannot be true according to this verse. The Lord was crucified before Friday.

delivered him to the tormentors,... Mt.18:34 I wonder who the tormentors are (demons). Is it a finite punishment? or it an infinite amount of time?

The Rich man and Lazarus; I do believe the Lord meant this as a real story not a parable.

for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. 2Co.4:18b
What is eternal? is it a certain amount of time, or is not confined by time. Is it really everlasting like forever, since God is eternal, the bible says so.

that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;.. He.2:14 Will the devil be destroyed?
Here's a thought; And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Re.20:10

Need I say more.

These are just some info gathered for now. I'm still gathering more so be patient folks.

BTW, all these verses are from the Authorize Bible!



[Edited by arc8 on 08-02-2004 at 11:45 AM]

[bootlen]

Right on, arc. About Lazarus and the rich man being true story rather than a parable, you are absolutely correct. If it were a parable, there would have been no mention of a name (Lazarus). No parable uses names. All knowledgable theologians agree.

[kim]

A "good christian" would want to do good deeds, because God wants you to. Those deeds do not effect your salvation. Anybody can say anything they want. Anybody can do anything they want. (Not true, there are pycotic people out there that can't help themselves.) God has a meter that sees around all that stuff.

It is just like your mom saying "You broke my heart". If you loved your mom, those words would hurt more than your dad's belt. If you just think that you got away from that one without punishment, it says alot about how much you care for your mom.
Cheating on your taxes will not keep you out of heaven, but wanting to cheat just might. Those details will be detirmined when you stand in front of Jesus and the book of life.

I would quess a homosexual has a better chance of getting into heaven than the guy who can quote bible verses, but beats up the homosexual in the name of God. It is not the sin it is the heart that does the sinning. I am not sure. I quess my personal line with the Holy Ghost has more static than some people's. Appearently there are people out there the actually talk to God and hear his words just like he was on the telephone with them.

[bootlen]

I highly recommend anyone who wants to post on this thread to read ALL posts before making commentary so you don't look like a complete idiot.

[kim]

Like this 12 page thread has one tightly knit theme. Like you would have been happier if I went through 12 pages of stuff and quoted some of it.


At least this time you are not saying my religon is flawed. I can't help it if you interpret your bible differently than I do. The only difference: I consider the opinions of people smarter than me who have spent a lifetime studying the bible.
Do you think they just sit and read the bible in seminary school? Have you ever seen a catacism (sp) book?
Or is that part of the other concurrent bible thread mixed in there too?

[Edited by kim on 08-02-2004 at 04:06 PM]

[bootlen]

Did somebody say something?

[arc8]

A "good christian" would want to do good deeds, because God wants you to. Those deeds do not effect your salvation. Anybody can say anything they want. Anybody can do anything they want. (Not true, there are pycotic people out there that can't help themselves.) God has a meter that sees around all that stuff.

Remember, you do good deeds because of your salvation, you don't do good deeds to get salvation, which many religions err in.

Ever wonder what happens after death?
I have always considered myself a good Christan, but the last several years I find my mind really wondering...
Recently, my wife and I took a vacation (without the kids)for the first time. Could not help thinking about what would happen to my two young kids if something happened to us.
Since our safe return I've been thinking...
What does happen after death? I know what my Christan upbringing tells me, but it doesnt seem to be bringing much comfort to me right now.
I find it upsetting that after death I won't be able to see my kids, to listen to them laugh and see the smiles on there faces...
Even the Bible seems a little unclear about what you do with your time for all eternity...
Will I not be able to see the wonders of nature, be surrounded by the people I love? I wont be able to enjoy the simplest things like a Football game?
I want to believe the best is yet to come, but the fear of the unknown is a little unsettling.
Ever consider the fact the Bible might be wrong? It is possible right?
What if it was just a fiction novel written 2 thousand years ago, you know ...a best seller or something?
People tend to live there lives by following the Bible...what if there is no truth in the Bible? Kind of scary isnt it?
Makes me wonder...just because I was raised a Christan does it make it accurate? I mean, just because that's what I was taught does it make it right? There are other religons and beliefs out there...does that make them all wrong?
Dont forget that Christanity is what America believes(seems normal to us). The number one religon in the world is the Muslim faith, so who is right?
We are right because the Bible says so? Again I ask, what if the Bible is wrong?
With all things considered, life as we know it is pretty good. I hope and pray I have at least another 40 years to go...
Just would like more comfort in knowing there is a place for me and the people I love when the time comes...I believe there is such a place...maybe I am just thinking to much (I tend to do that)
Any opinions?

I recommend that you read Job.

[kim]

I think the book of Job tells us the most about God's expectations of us. It truely is words to live by.

[rob10]

that apparently kim and remember do not have the Interperter(Holy Sprit) to guide them in all truth. The only thing we can do for them is pray and not engage in hostile rhetoric with them.

[R12rules]

Half you folks got ADD and cant hold to a topic long enough to draw a conclusion in.

I mean, this man here asked a question and invited all comers to post opinions.

Some offered up opinions while others merly lurked on froma distance.
I cant fault no one for that.

But there is NOT a continuity along this thread. Period!

Did DiceMan start this thread?


May I offer this option as a simple solution to the man's question?

Get down with Jesus! Just Jesus!

Not Jesus and your Momma.
Not Jesus and your Priest.
Not Jesus and some book you bought at a yard sale.

Just Jesus. And of course ... your favorite Bible.


Because unless that Bible says Dakes, Jehova Witnesses, Watch Tower, or Apocrapha ... it is a Bible and will be used by God to speak to you, personally, and without distraction.


Spend some time alone each day with Jesus and read His word.
Alone. Personal. Quiet time.

Most of the foks posting here are right on. But this thread has taken so many side trips it's not EVEN on the topic any longer.
But as long as nobody cares ...why should I even speak up?
Simply becasue the man's question appears to me to be a serious/sincere/honest from the heart question.

I wasnt sure at the begining. But I listened and what I sence now is there is evidence it is from a sincere heart.

[rob10]

Don't just ramble off topic as usual. Join in if you have something relevant.

[bootlen]

Hey, R12, I know what you're saying. However, his question was answered by several different posts taken from different perspectives. And anytime you get more than one person answering one question, you're gonna have rabbit trails. I see nothing wrong with that...except the one or two posters who get their rabbit trails mixed up. But we're intelligent, thinking men (dems/libs notwithstanding :D) and can usually pick the math from the English.

Personally, I like rabbit trails. They provoke thought and discussion that otherwise may never take place. The more we talk, the more opportunity we have to speak the Gospel. And that, my brother, is what God Himself has commanded us to do, whether remember likes it or not. :)

[kim]

Why is it that you think I am not a "good christian"?

It was last year that I was all but accused of heresy because I said the only prayer Jesus told us to pray was worth basing my religion on.

Now I am accused of not being a good christian right after I say Job is words to live by.

Maybe it is small minded people who think they are so great that God is giving them the only true way. No dissenting opinions allowed. Sound like they are adopting the ideas of Jahad. I hope they do not plan on beheading the Gentiles next.

I am just a poor wondering soul searching for the truth. I have no Gnostic type religion that tells me what is the one and only truth.

You poor people who will not consider the opinions of people who have studied the bible their entire life. I can't help but wonder what your preacher tells you in church. Since you don't trust people with a formal biblical education.

[arc8]

Why is it that you think I am not a "good christian"?

It was last year that I was all but accused of heresy because I said the only prayer Jesus told us to pray was worth basing my religion on.

Now I am accused of not being a good christian right after I say Job is words to live by.

Maybe it is small minded people who think they are so great that God is giving them the only true way. No dissenting opinions allowed. Sound like they are adopting the ideas of Jahad. I hope they do not plan on beheading the Gentiles next.

I am just a poor wondering soul searching for the truth. I have no Gnostic type religion that tells me what is the one and only truth.

You poor people who will not consider the opinions of people who have studied the bible their entire life. I can't help but wonder what your preacher tells you in church. Since you don't trust people with a formal biblical education.

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." Mt.6:7
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father ...
This was and is a model prayer, not a commandment! This is how the Lord taught his disciples to pray. Of course this was not the Lord's prayer, He did not need to confess his sins.

Actually, the old testament is an example for us in how to live godly. So, we shouldn't neglect any of the books in the old testament, including Job. So in other words, Job is a good book to live by, there are many principles that can be garnished from it.

I'm not a bible scholar, nor have I been to a cementary, I mean a seminary school. I'm glad you don't have to be a theologian to understand God's word!

Gnostic or not, the word of God is still God's word; "But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil" and even the word.
Read Hebrews 5:11 - 6:2.

[kim]

Never claimed the lord's prayer was a commandment. The bible is more than a list of 10 comandments. It was instruction from the mouth of Jesus. I place a great value on the words of Jesus.

[rob10]

Is the Spirit within you?

[kim]

Unlike you fundamentalist, I can't know. I do not have the faith of a child. I do not have even close to most of the answers. All I can do is beleive there is a higher power. I choose to call it God, he who has no name. That higher power is a guide in my life
I can see the huge difference between the law of God and the Code of Hamarabbi, for example. My faith is based on reason and logic.

If Jesus can have doubts ie Garden of Gasemini (sp), I can accept my own doubts. I do have a problem with the catholic creeds

[remember]

the point of bootlen's arrogance and others that feel "the bible" is correct ,is to disregard all other "scripture's".


to pick at the nuances of the bible is one thing;when taken into context that the bible is just one of many.

and jesus was a man.


to assume that because some people with a millennia and a half,were able to make the latest printing of a "story of stories",SEEM like it is encompassing.
is no great accomplishment.

to ignore the players in history that have shaped the evolution and acceptance of that book in particular;from constantine(council at nicea 325 and 314),to charlemagne and charles martel,the carolingian kings or the merovingian kings.the holy roman empire.or the templars and godefroi de bullion,or the jesuits,ignatius loyola's answer to the problem of the protestants. and all the other historical political collaborations that resulted in the version of jesus that is popular today.(here in evangelical/catholic america)
actually the real story of jesus seems to be being unearthed with discoveries like those at the dead sea and nag hammandi)to the chagrin of those proponents of a static christianity,that like to quote from a book they believe to be their idol as opposed to the dynamic force of love and understanding that jesus died for.which is the vine as he was

or to ignore various versions of christianity like that of the cathars,or of arius,or the eastern orthadox(vatican is western orthadox),and so many others.


that is arrogance.or if you don't want such a judgemental word;how about "ignorant" or "misinformed" still judgemental,how about just, "misled".

if you want ;I could interject the parables of jesus from "the gospel of st. thomas"
or one of the many other works that have equal claim to be included in the bible that weren't.

the book of enoch.
or the creation stories of the sumerians,egyptians,chaldeans,

is that too old.

how about the koran.

because if you people were paying attention,mohammed was a prophet after jesus,who was after moses.

all three of the same god.
these three "new" religions all pray to the same god.

yet somehow ,somebody has recreated the story of a man named jesus to tell that he was actually god himself.

not that he thought so.(he was a rabbi,that seemed to follow jewish tradition.a gnostic way of knowing god. that is what a rebellious rabbi does.to reinterpret the torah.) that he was god only showed up in roman theology hundreds of years after jesus died.

in the gospel of thomas ,
jesus says,"
"I am the son of god ... and so are you."



[Edited by remember on 08-03-2004 at 04:25 PM]

[rob10]

The Bible is the inspired Word of God. All others have Satan's hand on it to mislead people away from the Truth of the Cross. The Triune: God the Father, Jesus, The Holy Spirit. One in the same. There is no other. A person has to be born again to realize that. Have you accepted Christ as your personal Savior?

[kim]

I did not think Enoch should have been in the bible. I can understand why some of the others were not included, mostly to stem the tide of Gnosticism. I like the book of Mary, but understand the reasoning for not including it.

If you just look at the simalarities between the dead sea scroll and the new testament, they are easy to see. Now look for the differences. There are more and more being translated all the time. I have a problem with all forms of Gnosticism, include the Essene version. I feel they are closer to the Muslims than to the Christians. Christian have evovled beyond the need for a warrior messiah.

I have studied that stuff too. I studied it with my heart and my mind. I sliced, diced and analysed all that material, but I was looking to find God not to discredit him.
It is OK to be paraniod, but it is ruling your life. There is more to this life than who is abusing whom. Greed will always be with us. You can grow beyond that and still have a fruitful life. Try it sometime. Just look for the love and add some depth to your education.
It is like rap music. There is poetry in there if you look for it. The hate is very obvious, but it is not the only thing there.

I still will not respond to your long triple spaced diatribes.

[hvac r us 2]

Originally posted by rob10
Have you accepted Christ as your personal Savior?

You know, I have never understood that phrase. Maybe I am just to practical in my thinking?

God sends his only Son, to die for our sins...

How is it that I just dont get that? How does Jesus dying have anything to do with my sins? Better yet, why Jesus as a personal savior? Why pray to Jesus? Why not just skip right by him and pray to God? I just dont get it...I must be an idiot!

And for the record, I have been nothing but sincere when starting or posting in this thread. I find religion very interesting.

You know, when I was about 10 years old I had a buddy I hung around with that was probably 2 years older than me.
Dont really remember the whole conversation, but he said to me one time "I dont know why there is so many differant religions, there should only be one, just as there is only one God" Maybe religion isnt complicated, maybe people make it complicated.

Read some of this thread and some of the posts. Listen to the differant opinions, I'm begining to think my friend was wise beyond his years...maybe religion is as simple and pure as a 12 year old thinks it is.

[rob10]

God's covenant with Israel demanded blood sacrifices for atonement of sin. Through the perfect sacrifice of the lamb of God all sin of believers (past,present,and future) is covered by His Blood. The Bible also states that he is our Advocate before the Father constantly offering up supplications for believers. As I stated before, the only sin that will keep you from the presence of God for eternity is disbelief in who his Son is.

[Irascible]

Originally posted by hvac r us 2
How does Jesus dying have anything to do with my sins?
A penalty must be paid for sin. When you park where you shouldn't you get a parking ticket. When you sin, the penalty is death. You can pay that price, just as you can pay a ticket. But unlike the ticket, you are no more after death. The alternative is to let Christ pay that penalty, just as if someone was paying the ticket for you.
Better yet, why Jesus as a personal savior? Why pray to Jesus?
It had to be Jesus because no other could pay the price. If two people are sentenced to die, one of them can not die twice in order to save the other. Both must die for what they did. Christ was the only sinless human to ever live. He can pay the price where no other could because he alone was innocent of sin. It was as if an innocent brother took the death penalty upon himself to save another brother that was on death row.
Why not just skip right by him and pray to God? I just don’t get it...I must be an idiot!
You can pray straight to God. However, Jesus is the means by which you do that. God can't associate himself with sin. So we can't approach the Father on our own. It is Christ's sacrifice that paid the price for our sin. That act washed away our sins and made us guiltless in God's eyes. You've probably heard something to the effect that Christ took the sin of the world upon himself. That means exactly that. He took the guilt of sin upon himself so that God would declare us innocent on judgement day.
Don’t really remember the whole conversation, but he said to me one time "I don’t know why there is so many different religions, there should only be one, just as there is only one God" Maybe religion isn’t complicated, maybe people make it complicated.
It is complicated only for the reason that our adversary Satan wants it to be. Satan wants you tormented on this Earth as well as in the next life. It's only natural that he would create as much confusion as possible. He doesn't want you to know or accept the truth.
Read some of this thread and some of the posts. Listen to the different opinions, I'm beginning to think my friend was wise beyond his years...maybe religion is as simple and pure as a 12 year old thinks it is.
Personally I think it is simple. We must pay a horrible price for our sins. Or we can let Christ pay that price for us. But it doesn't happen automatically. To receive a gift, one must actively accept it. If I leave a gift on your porch and you never pick it up or open it, it will be as if you never received it. Christ knocks on the door of every man's heart. But the man must open the door to receive him.

[rob10]

Nicely stated Ira. It is simple.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by remember
the point of bootlen's arrogance and others that feel "the bible" is correct ,is to disregard all other "scripture's".


to pick at the nuances of the bible is one thing;when taken into context that the bible is just one of many.

and jesus was a man.


to assume that because some people with a millennia and a half,were able to make the latest printing of a "story of stories",SEEM like it is encompassing.
is no great accomplishment.

to ignore the players in history that have shaped the evolution and acceptance of that book in particular;from constantine(council at nicea 325 and 314),to charlemagne and charles martel,the carolingian kings or the merovingian kings.the holy roman empire.or the templars and godefroi de bullion,or the jesuits,ignatius loyola's answer to the problem of the protestants. and all the other historical political collaborations that resulted in the version of jesus that is popular today.(here in evangelical/catholic america)
actually the real story of jesus seems to be being unearthed with discoveries like those at the dead sea and nag hammandi)to the chagrin of those proponents of a static christianity,that like to quote from a book they believe to be their idol as opposed to the dynamic force of love and understanding that jesus died for.which is the vine as he was

or to ignore various versions of christianity like that of the cathars,or of arius,or the eastern orthadox(vatican is western orthadox),and so many others.


that is arrogance.or if you don't want such a judgemental word;how about "ignorant" or "misinformed" still judgemental,how about just, "misled".

if you want ;I could interject the parables of jesus from "the gospel of st. thomas"
or one of the many other works that have equal claim to be included in the bible that weren't.

the book of enoch.
or the creation stories of the sumerians,egyptians,chaldeans,

is that too old.

how about the koran.

because if you people were paying attention,mohammed was a prophet after jesus,who was after moses.

all three of the same god.
these three "new" religions all pray to the same god.

yet somehow ,somebody has recreated the story of a man named jesus to tell that he was actually god himself.

not that he thought so.(he was a rabbi,that seemed to follow jewish tradition.a gnostic way of knowing god. that is what a rebellious rabbi does.to reinterpret the torah.) that he was god only showed up in roman theology hundreds of years after jesus died.

in the gospel of thomas ,
jesus says,"
"I am the son of god ... and so are you."



[Edited by remember on 08-03-2004 at 04:25 PM]

================================================== ==========

OK, remember. I'll bite. What did I say that shows me to be arrogant? (I'm asking this question based on the assumption you know the definition of arrogance.)

[arc8]

Unlike you fundamentalist, I can't know. I do not have the faith of a child. I do not have even close to most of the answers. All I can do is beleive there is a higher power. I choose to call it God, he who has no name. That higher power is a guide in my life
I can see the huge difference between the law of God and the Code of Hamarabbi, for example. My faith is based on reason and logic.

If Jesus can have doubts ie Garden of Gasemini (sp), I can accept my own doubts. I do have a problem with the catholic creeds

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1Jo.5:13

You can know of your salvation.

If Jesus had doubts it's because he was Jesus a man, not because he was Christ.


and jesus was a man.
yet somehow ,somebody has recreated the story of a man named jesus to tell that he was actually god himself.
not that he thought so.(he was a rabbi,that seemed to follow jewish tradition.a gnostic way of knowing god. that is what a rebellious rabbi does.to reinterpret the torah.) that he was god only showed up in roman theology hundreds of years after jesus died.

Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Jo.8:58

And without controversy graet is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up to into glory. 1Ti.3:16

Either Jesus was God or he is was a liar and a lunatic. I wouldn't want to be in your shoes in the day of judgment.

to ignore the players in history that have shaped the evolution and acceptance of that book in particular;from constantine(council at nicea 325 and 314),to charlemagne and charles martel,the carolingian kings or the merovingian kings.the holy roman empire.or the templars and godefroi de bullion,or the jesuits,ignatius loyola's answer to the problem of the protestants. and all the other historical political collaborations that resulted in the version of jesus that is popular today.(here in evangelical/catholic america)
actually the real story of jesus seems to be being unearthed with discoveries like those at the dead sea and nag hammandi)to the chagrin of those proponents of a static christianity,that like to quote from a book they believe to be their idol as opposed to the dynamic force of love and understanding that jesus died for.which is the vine as he was

"We have now seen that the Baptists and in later times Mennonites were the original Waldenses, and have long in history received the honor of that origin. On this account the Baptists may be considered the only christian community which has stood since the Apostles, and as a Christian Society which has preserved pure the doctrines of the Gospel through the ages. The perfectly correct external economy of the Baptist denomination tends to confirm the truth, disputed by the Romish 'Church', that the Reformation brought about in the Sixteenth Century was in the highest degree necessary; and at the same time it goes to refute the erroneous notion of the Catholics that their communion is the most ancient." - History of Dutch Reformed Church, Vol.I

I like the book of Mary, but understand the reasoning for not including it.

I have that book, the Gospel according to Mary.

How is it that I just dont get that? How does Jesus dying have anything to do with my sins? Better yet, why Jesus as a personal savior? Why pray to Jesus? Why not just skip right by him and pray to God? I just dont get it...I must be an idiot!

And for the record, I have been nothing but sincere when starting or posting in this thread. I find religion very interesting.

You know, when I was about 10 years old I had a buddy I hung around with that was probably 2 years older than me.
Dont really remember the whole conversation, but he said to me one time "I dont know why there is so many differant religions, there should only be one, just as there is only one God" Maybe religion isnt complicated, maybe people make it complicated.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 1Ti.2:5

Religion is of man, Salvation is of the Lord.
Satan wants mankind to worship him! He invented religion.

You must be born again, spirtually speaking, to enter into God's kingdom. Read the Gospel according to John.

[coolie]

"I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore - AMEN - and have the keys of hell and death."
' Revelation 1:18
'
"Verily, verily, I say unto you; if a man keep my saying, he shall NEVER see death." John 8:51
'
"Verily, verily, I say unto you: the hour is coming, and NOW IS, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live." John 5:25
'
"...I am the resurrection, and the life; he that believeth in me, THOUGH HE WERE DEAD - yet shall he live; and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall NEVER DIE.
Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26
'
"...'Behold: I and the children which God hath given me.'
'
"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same, that THROUGH DEATH He might destroy him that HAD the power of death - that is, the devil - and deliver them who through FEAR of DEATH were all their lifetime subject to bondage."
. Hebrews 2:14-15
'
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is DEATH...
Death is swallowed up in VICTORY.
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
But thanks be to God, which giveth us the VICTORY through our Lord Jesus Christ." I Corinthians 15:26; 54-57
'
>>> the One I worship, praise, love and adore is the One I fear the most:
'
"... Him, which after he hath KILLED hath power to cast body and soul into HELL; yea, I say unto you, FEAR HIM."
' Luke 12:5

[kim]

Arc, Lutherans were here before the Baptist. The Baptist are a Calvinist church started after Martin Luther stood up to the Catholics. The Baptist want you to think they are somehow related to John the Baptist. The only real link is the prefference for full body immersion like the Jews always did. The Old Testement is full of retualistic cleansing. The Essenes (dead sea scrolls) took that to a new level. John the Baptist probably studied with the Essenes.

[arc8]

Arc, Lutherans were here before the Baptist. The Baptist are a Calvinist church started after Martin Luther stood up to the Catholics. The Baptist want you to think they are somehow related to John the Baptist. The only real link is the prefference for full body immersion like the Jews always did. The Old Testement is full of retualistic cleansing. The Essenes (dead sea scrolls) took that to a new level. John the Baptist probably studied with the Essenes.

Oh really!

MOSHEIM, a great Lutheran Historian: "The first Century was a history of the Baptists. Before the rise of Luther and Calvin there lay concealed in almost all countries of Europe persons who adhered tenaciously to the principles of the Dutch Baptists." - Century Sixteen, part 2, chapter 30.

Shall I go on, I will.

"Who seeth not here, in the Anabaptists, men not possessed with devils, but even devils themselves possessed with worse devils?" - Martin Luther.

Luther was no better than the Catholic Church.

CARDINAL HOSIUS, a Catholic dignitary, spoke these words in the Council of Trent, A.D. 1554: "If the truth of a religion were to be judge by the readiness and cheerfulness which a man of any sect shows in suffering, then the opinions and persuasions of no sect can be truer or surer than those of the Anabaptists; since there have been none for these twelve hundred years past that have been more grievously punished." - Orchard's History, p.364.

Yes the Catholic has persecuted over 50 millions christians, but not all Baptists.

Shall I go on? Read the history books that are so obscured. Who would want anyone to read these?

[bootlen]

I tried to warn you, arc.

[kim]

Originally posted by arc8
"We have now seen that the Baptists and in later times Mennonites were the original Waldenses, and have long in history received the honor of that origin. On this account the Baptists may be considered the only christian community which has stood since the Apostles, and as a Christian Society which has preserved pure the doctrines of the Gospel through the ages. The perfectly correct external economy of the Baptist denomination tends to confirm the truth, disputed by the Romish 'Church', that the Reformation brought about in the Sixteenth Century was in the highest degree necessary; and at the same time it goes to refute the erroneous notion of the Catholics that their communion is the most ancient." - History of Dutch Reformed Church, Vol.I


This is an example of the errors found in religon. The bible may have been written perfect, but man has had a hand in it. The Dutch church is probably honest God-loving people, but why would they tell a bold faced lie like this. The Baptist church is not the oldest church. The Luthern church is older. The Baptist church is one of the Calvanist churches the started to spread after Martin Luther stood up to the Catholic church. He stood up to them for lieing to illiterate people who could not read the bible for themselves. They were making up all kinds of stuff. The Greek orthodox church is the only church that has been around since the days of the apostles. They are the closest to the Jewish style of the apostles. The Roman Catholic church has been around since Augustine, 3rd century. (He really messed up the church.) Oldest does not meen best. The Catholic church is bending over backwards now to correct for the problems men introduced into their religon over the centuries.

[hvac r us 2]

You know I have tried out some differant churches over time...

More than once I have attended a Baptist church, everybody was very friendly, maybe to friendly (I am always suspicious)

Anyhow to make a long story short, I was in line to get out of the parking lot and didnt let a car out while I was in line,(honestly I didnt seem them)

So they honked the horn and gave me the bird!

Since then I have always wondered about people being on there best behavior in "God's house" then just being a total arse the rest of the week.

I have always tried to live my life with the theory that God knows what I do in private, actions speak louder than words.

To talk about being a good Christian and being a good Christian is two differant things in my book.

I think God would prefer if you lived by the 10 commandments, rather than breaking them and praying for forgiveness.

[Edited by hvac r us 2 on 08-04-2004 at 02:09 PM]

[kim]

Originally posted by arc8
Luther was no better than the Catholic Church.


The man that started a trend to get the words of God into the hands of cristians is no better than the people that made up whatever they wanted to and said it was in the bible.

Anabaptist are not Baptist, even though they have some of the same letters in their name.



Sorry about that double post. My computer told me that it did not post first time.

[kim]

Bootlick,

Adults are trying to have a conversation here. Your self-important opinions are not needed here.

[player89]

Originally posted by hvac r us 2


I think God would prefer if you lived by the 10 commandments, rather than breaking them and praying for forgiveness.

[Edited by hvac r us 2 on 08-04-2004 at 02:09 PM]

and Amen!

[kim]

http://www.anabaptists.org/history/what.html

They say the Anabaptist were formed in swizterland in the 16th century.


I have enough of this testoterone inspired crap. If you want to discuss religon or history, I would like to have a discussion. You will only learn from other people by having discussions.

[Edited by kim on 08-04-2004 at 03:55 PM]

[arc8]

The man that started a trend to get the words of God into the hands of cristians is no better than the people that made up whatever they wanted to and said it was in the bible.

Anabaptist are not Baptist, even though they have some of the same letters in their name.

Must I say more?

When did the Lord Jesus Christ build his Church?
Any guesses.

The Catholic Church is 400 to 500 years to late.

Has the Church that Jesus built ever broken a link from the first church that Jesus started?

Didn't Jesus promise there would always be his church on this planet till he comes?

Do people need to see more and more and yet not believe in the long run?

What would it take for us to accept some facts and to search it out to see if its so?

This world is always looking for signs, none shall be given except for God's word.

I think God would prefer if you lived by the 10 commandments, rather than breaking them and praying for forgiveness.

Good, but, can we even keep all the 10 commandments and not break one?

Acording to God, if we break one we are guilty of all, then hell is our punishment!

What can make us right or just before God?
Because of our nature, we will continue to sin. We must have a remedy to keep us righteous before our Maker.
Oh, What can it be?

[bootlen]

Originally posted by kim
Bootlick,

Adults are trying to have a conversation here. Your self-important opinions are not needed here.

================================================== ==========

:D:D:D

[bootlen]

Originally posted by hvac r us 2
You know I have tried out some differant churches over time...

More than once I have attended a Baptist church, everybody was very friendly, maybe to friendly (I am always suspicious)

Anyhow to make a long story short, I was in line to get out of the parking lot and didnt let a car out while I was in line,(honestly I didnt seem them)

So they honked the horn and gave me the bird!

Since then I have always wondered about people being on there best behavior in "God's house" then just being a total arse the rest of the week.

I have always tried to live my life with the theory that God knows what I do in private, actions speak louder than words.

To talk about being a good Christian and being a good Christian is two differant things in my book.

I think God would prefer if you lived by the 10 commandments, rather than breaking them and praying for forgiveness.

[Edited by hvac r us 2 on 08-04-2004 at 02:09 PM]

================================================== ==========

Hvac, that's a pretty sad commentary on the parking lot event at that church. Possibly the finger waver was a visitor who had never been to church before. Or he may have been a life-long church-goer who wouldn't know salvation if it hit him in the head with a brick. Or maybe he is saved and will hold the door open for the rest of the saints to go through to Heaven. In any case, there is no excuse for his actions. If he was saved, God will deal with him if He hasn't already.

My point is, don't let people come between you and your realtionship with God. The Bible says that children of God (saved people) like to be with God's people (other saved people). So find a good Bible-believing church (pay no attention to the nay-sayers about Bible-believing churches) that worships Jesus Christ as God, ask God to draw you to Himself and His family and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

[Workhorse]

Been reading this thread right along and some good points have been made. But what I see here is the same thing non-believers or people (especially these type) who are sitting on the fence of believing see, arguments, confrontations, dissatisfied believers, people with closed minds and open mouths. You get my point, I hope you do.

I really don't think it matters on how you believe, what faith you are or if you attend services 1, 2, 3 or 4 times a week. What matters is that you believe! I think all of us have read the Bible to some extent, have some kind of comprehension to what it says. Now if can take what we believe and practice it (myself included mainly) then the world could be a great place. I belong to this church (doesn't matter which one) that believes things a certain way, but when you join this church the pastor sits down with you and tells you point blank that we as a church are a part of the body of Christ, just a part. What other churches believe and do are good for the most part as they are a part of the body of Christ also. We are all parts to make up the whole body. The way we believe is just that, the way we believe and the same goes for you. We as a church believe in cell groups (small groups outside of the church) that get together to study the word of God. The group I belonged to was not only members of my church but also had members from other churches and faiths. We had a man that was a Baptist, another who was a Presbyterian, another couple that were Catholic, myself and a couple others that are Charismatic Pentecostal, and a few more invitees that were not quite believers. We had an agreement at the beginning of every Bible study that we not agree but we would LISTEN WITH AN OPEN MIND. I did this for several weeks and went home angry because they wouldn't believe the way I did until I realized that there was much more that we did agree on then we disagreed on. There was many times that they made me think about what I believed in and go home and study harder.

Basically what I really wanted t right and was starting on before veering off in a different direction was this, The original church that Jesus built was not in any building, any faith, any town or any one person. The church He built was in one's own heart and mind. It was one person sharing the love of Jesus with another person. The church that Jesus built was upon the foundation of firm bedrock of one's faith. I think Matthew 22:37-38 sums it up the best, I would quote it but it is better that you go get your Bible out and read it for yourself.

I hope this has helped someone as it sure helped me just writing it out and sharing it with you guys.

Good day and God bless.

Shane

[coolie]

The Roman Catholic Bible has different ten than the Authorized (King James) Bible.
How many could you recite if I put a gun to your head?
So, you see, this is why Jesus came into the world:
'
"For what the >>law<< could NOT do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and FOR sin, condemned sin in the flesh."
' Romans 8:3
'
AND right before that, in verse two (if you want to go to Heaven when you die):
'
"For the LAW of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
'
Jesus obeyed the law perfectly, then suffered sin's punishment and suffered the punishment due to me for my sins.
'
How about you? Did Jesus die on your behalf? On account of your sins?

[bootlen]

Workhorse, very well said. Agreed 100%.

[kim]

The bible almost begs for personal opinions and variations. Some people believe we must follow the law of the old testament. Paul told the Corintians that Jesus brought a new covenent. Peter had a dream where God told him he did not have to follow Jewish diet laws. Makes me beleive in the new covenent. Are we Jews or Gentiles. I did not get circumsized because it on a covenent with God.

Paul went on to tell the Corintians that the spirit of the law is rightousness, the letter of the law is death. So what is a person to do and beleive.

Many people that say they understand are deceiving themselves or oversimplifying. The ones that say their way is the only way just don't get it.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by kim
The bible almost begs for personal opinions and variations. Some people believe we must follow the law of the old testament. Paul told the Corintians that Jesus brought a new covenent. Peter had a dream where God told him he did not have to follow Jewish diet laws. Makes me beleive in the new covenent. Are we Jews or Gentiles. I did not get circumsized because it on a covenent with God.

Paul went on to tell the Corintians that the spirit of the law is rightousness, the letter of the law is death. So what is a person to do and beleive.

Many people that say they understand are deceiving themselves or oversimplifying. The ones that say their way is the only way just don't get it.

================================================== ==========

Incorrect, wrong, and otherwise misquoted quotes.

[arc8]

Basically what I really wanted t right and was starting on before veering off in a different direction was this, The original church that Jesus built was not in any building, any faith, any town or any one person. The church He built was in one's own heart and mind. It was one person sharing the love of Jesus with another person. The church that Jesus built was upon the foundation of firm bedrock of one's faith. I think Matthew 22:37-38 sums it up the best, I would quote it but it is better that you go get your Bible out and read it for yourself.

I can't get that from the bible!
The Church is a local assembly according to the scriptures!
Matter of fact, it is a local visible church.
It is an assembly of believers (real life people), that casteth a shadow, it's visible.
Yes, Jesus was teaching in the temple, to his disciples (believers) and other Jews.
We should not neglect this verse either; If you love me, keep my commandments. Jo.14:15

The bible almost begs for personal opinions and variations. Some people believe we must follow the law of the old testament. Paul told the Corintians that Jesus brought a new covenent. Peter had a dream where God told him he did not have to follow Jewish diet laws. Makes me beleive in the new covenent. Are we Jews or Gentiles. I did not get circumsized because it on a covenent with God.

Paul went on to tell the Corintians that the spirit of the law is rightousness, the letter of the law is death. So what is a person to do and beleive.

Many people that say they understand are deceiving themselves or oversimplifying. The ones that say their way is the only way just don't get it.

IN those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mt.3:1-2

From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mt.4:17

Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. Ac.4:12

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Ro.10:17

I quoted these for these reasons, first John the Baptist is of the New Testament, secondly, both Jesus and John preached the gospel, the same one; thirdly, without hearing the gospel, how can man be saved?

So, Believe the gospel. 1Co. 15:1-4
"repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Ac.20:21

Yes there is liberty in Christ, liberty from sin, not liberty to do what you want and sin.

[kim]

Just wrong, but no correct interpretation.

It is easy to preach to the choir, because they already agree with you.
When you try to help a man find his way, that is witnessing.

Why would you want to let even a buttwipe like me suffer in hell, when you had the chance to be the one that makes a difference? A beleiver can get into heaven, a saint can get an ataboy from God by helping others get into heaven. The good shepherd will look long and hard to find that one lost sheep, because every sheep counts in God flock.




Hammarobi's Code setting different penalties for different "classes" of people, while God's law treats everybody the same would find well right here, but I am not getting that deep today.

[bootlen]

Originally posted by kim
Just wrong, but no correct interpretation.

It is easy to preach to the choir, because they already agree with you.
When you try to help a man find his way, that is witnessing.

Why would you want to let even a buttwipe like me suffer in hell, when you had the chance to be the one that makes a difference? A beleiver can get into heaven, a saint can get an ataboy from God by helping others get into heaven. The good shepherd will look long and hard to find that one lost sheep, because every sheep counts in God flock.




Hammarobi's Code setting different penalties for different "classes" of people, while God's law treats everybody the same would find well right here, but I am not getting that deep today.

================================================== ==========

Kim, why would you ask questions and then argue with those who give you the correct answers? That is why I've been so put off by you.

That being said...

I may have misjudged you somewhat. Originally, I thought you were maliciously argmentative but I've read some of your posts in other forums here and have made a re-evaluation of what I think of you. My thoughts are this...I think you are a lot like Einstein. He could teach and explain the complexities of the theory of relativity as easily as I open a door. Yet the poor old guy flunked math. He couldn't deal with the simplicities of 2 plus 2!
I believe you are like him in that same way. I've read some of your posts in "Residential" and you knocked my socks off with your knowledge of the complexities of HVAC. But you seem to have difficulties dealing with the simplicities of salvation and Christianity.

Kim, if my evaluation of you as noted in the paragraph immediately above is correct, I offer my sincerest apologies and reneg and regret anything I said that was hurtful. And if so, I hope you can forgive me.

Of course, now some of the weaker stomached guys will puke on their keyboards.:)

[kim]

What a girly man, I hope you have a good cry.

Just kidding.

You can't hold grudges against people. It is not the christian way and it is not healthy for you.
We are just reading our bibles a little differently is all. My personal relationship with God has more simalariies with yours than differences.

I read lots of stuff, but keep the teachings of Jesus in my mind. If they do not agree with the teachings of Jesus, I dodn't put as much weigh behind it. Jesus did and said lots of things that the leaders of his time did nto think matched up perfectly with the old testament. I like the saying "Rules are just quidelines for geniuses" I feel that if I can understand the reasoning behind the rules, I can do a better job upholding my part of my covenent with my God. If you look, you can find the love. Jesus was all about love.
I do tend to favor the "new covenent" since I am not Jewish and all. Give it a good study and get back with me on what you think Paul was trying to say.

I also think that mankind has evolved over the centuries. We are better able to understand God. Jesus brought us the more evolved message from God. His message was straight from the horses' mouth (If you can excuse the vulgarity that may imply.) My religon is based more on the first 5 books of the new testament, the words and actions of Jesus. Might not be the perfect way, but God knows I am trying as hard as I can. I feel God can look at me with some measure of pride. Like the widow that gave her last coin that was praised by Jesus over the guy that gave lots but it was a small percentage of what he had.

[rob10]

Sorry, double post

[rob10]

Originally posted by rob10
By your posts, The Holy Spirit is either gently guiding you to Salvation or you are already there but don't realize it. One question. Have accepted Christ as your PERSONAL Savior? The worm turns on this ONE question.

[kim]

I am just not a creed reciting member of a demonination. I go to the Unity Church. Some fundamentalist say they are a cult.

I have studied "The Course in Miracles". It never mentions God. I have seen no documentation about divine inspiration. As far as I know the auther has never been interveiwed.

[coolie]

Here's a link you may find helpful:
'
http://www.rtrc.net/documents/wcf/hodge/wcfaah1.htm
'
As far as an interview with God, I go to the fifth, eighth and nineteenth chapters of the Gospel of John.