MARKET REFRIGERATION

[bunglebear]

Is there anyone out there who can recommend me a decent book for supermarket systems-parallel racks and controllers. Can't seem to find anything decent right now.

Thanks
James

[shaun66]

I only do supermarkets, cant recall ever seeing a text book that is supermarket specific, post here or email me direct, I will try to help

[NormChris]

Originally posted by bunglebear
Is there anyone out there who can recommend me a decent book for supermarket systems-parallel racks and controllers. Can't seem to find anything decent right now.

Thanks
James


I taught a semester long class on supermarket refrigeration for 18-years. I never located a textbook on the topic during all those years. Textbook sales people were constantly at my office door trying to push their HVACR textbooks for me to adopt in my classes. Not one of them could come up with a supermarket textbook.

All those years I taught that class by providing the students with copies of manufacturers literature, materials I located from various sources and what I wrote myself. By the end of the semester each student left with a 3-inch three ring binder of material relating to supermarket refrigeration and low-temp applications.

I don't think you are going to find a book dedicated to the topic. If you do, I want to know about it.

Norm

[bunglebear]

Hi Shaun,

Thanks for the reply

I've looked everywhere for information on supermarket refrigeration. It's only the racks running multiple cases I'm interested in. I've been a commercial refrigeration mechanic for too long. I've been asked a few times to look at parallel racks, and keep hearing about these CPC controllers etc. Alot of my work involves display chillers, but the compressors are sited under the case, or sometimes remotely, but I don't do racks.
I believe that it could be a subject that has not been published, perhaps because it's a specialised field. I really would appreciate any information on this subject quite desperately, because I need to add this type of work to my resume, as we are planning to move abroad in the next 2or3 years.

Thanks for your input Norm-no training notes still in existence are there ?

Regards
James

[Freezeking2000]

Just get a job with a supermarket company, you will get about 100 hours a week worth of experience. If you have a good head on your shoulders you will fake your way thru it!

[NormChris]

I inquired with several publishers about getting a book published on the subject. All had the same response. The market for such a book was not large enough to sell enough books to make the profits they wanted to earn. They were only interested in larger works such as a full-blown textbook like Modern Air Conditioning & Refrigeration.

I have lots of notes and copies of my handouts however, they would not mean much without the lectures that went with them. Also, they are hard copies since I never made electronic copies of them.

[smilies]

I have not found any printed material of any consequence. Like Freezeking said, get a job with a market company and you will learn. And the 100 hours a week is no joke. I had 111 billed hours last pay period. The company I'm with put these manuals together and they are excellent.

http://img1.uploadimages.net/517857zzzzzzzzzzzzzz_(1).JPG
http://img1.uploadimages.net/729117zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.JPG

[stenfam]

tyler has a NICE P/T chart that really helps me at least.
It shows all their cases and their engineers reccomends for prv's whether in the case or up stairs..... etc. In a pinch, it can usually be used on a different manufacturer, close to the same unit, say a 12" referigerater coffin, a cake case three air curtain etc...

not sure how to obtain it though! try e mailing Tyler?

[R12rules]

Norm, if you took your materials to Kinko's and had them scan it, they could burn it onto a DVD or CD and then you could begin assembling it for e-publishing.

A xerox digital document center is the best way to go.

Not sure if Kinko's uses their equipment or not.

Also, could your lecture be typed up and included with that selection of handouts?

Why not?

Then you would have a complete work in print form.

[stenfam]

not sure if CPC does ABROAD. Most likely they do though.
Einstein I bet not!
Where abroad? It "usually" gets 25 years behind over "there".

[bigdmike]

I'VE BEEN IN THE REFRIGERATION BUISNESS FOR 13 YEARS,YES SUPERMARKET IS MY THING.I'VE NEVER SEEN A TEXTBOOK EITHER.IF I WAS YOU I WOULDENT GET INTO SUPERMARKET'S.THE CPC ALARMS AT 2am,3am AND SO FORTH GET TO BE A PAIN IN THE ARSE.DON'T GET ME WRONG IT'S BEEN GOOD TO ME,THE SUMMER GETS A LITTLE TIREING.JUST REMEMBER TO SLEEP AT NIGHT. ESPECIALLY IF YOU FAKED YOUR WAY THROUGH THE DAY.CAUSE IT DOES HAPPEN.NOT ALL REPAIRS ARE CUT AND DRY.WORK LONG HOURS MAKE DECENT MONEY AND SMILE ALL THE WAY TO THE BANK. GOOD LUCK

[carolina spur]

i am a in-house refrigeration tech. for a supermarket in south carolina and the best bet is to leave it alone unless you want to work 24-7,the job or type of work is not hard at all,you deal mostly with freon leaks and controller problems and crazy store mgrs.the refrigeration part is to me real simple,i used to do commercial refrig.and found that supermarket is the best but stores never close and the sound of your pager is 100 times worse than road rage,but with all that said the best info is at the store in the installation manual left with the racks,you normaly have atleast 3 different manuals 1st the contoller manual then the compressor manufactor manual then the manufactor of the rack,we use at leat three differant types of compressors and as many contollers and as many types of racks. Good luck

[frozensolid]

The knowledge of Supermarkets is handed down from one generation to the next. One of the last true industrial arts. The only way to learn correctly is from others that know.

Market life is tuff no doubt. But after a couple of hard years in markets, you will have the skill, confidence, and knowledge to do anything you want. If your a bonehead, you will never last a couple of years.

[DrFreeze2000]

One of the reasons there is no "textbooks" on supermarket racks (IMO) is that it utilizes multiple theories and manufacture specific practices.

For example, reverse gas defrost on Hill parllel systems is entirely different from Hussmann's Kool Gas. Throw Tyler's theory of defrost into the mix and you have more trips for BC powder.

Start with RSES manuals, if you understand whats in those cover to cover, you can repair the engineers FU'ps.

How bout the early hussman compound racks before the green pumpers did it internally?? Started 2 of those headaches for Winn Dixie in Ft Liquordale.

[frozensolid]

Which Winn Dixe?

[condenseddave]

Drfreeze: You mean the Hussmann BIGs?

They were a good system. Sort of.

[DrFreeze2000]

If I remember correct the first was W/D in Ft Laud, north of Commercial Blvd, around 1991, the other was Fla City or Homestead, don't remember.

Hussmann Big's???

Honestly the only thing I remember about the project was units had early version CPC's that allowed unit to operate in a vac for short periods on Med temp side (mt. cases on FF rack, go figure) and pulled in moisture from a leak (store hadn't even opened yet).

Solution was I added more unloaders, or had Huss do it I should say, and had the leak repaired.

Those were the last ones I touched, now we just replace black pounders with demand cooling on Huss racks.

How many locations have you gone to with black gunk on TXV's on an entire lineup from one bad DC module.

I hate to say it but those Benton 'Necks have got low temp. 22 down to a science.

Publix is still lost in the wild!!!

[condenseddave]

Wonder whatever happened to these guys???:confused:

[cctrol]

Originally posted by stenfam
not sure if CPC does ABROAD. Most likely they do though.
Einstein I bet not!
Where abroad? It "usually" gets 25 years behind over "there".

I don't know about other 'abroad' places, but we have several racks (hussman and tyler) with CPC controllers. All are RMCC's, no Einsteins.
AND
I think it's more like 10 years behind. We don't even require epa certification as yet. I have held type-4 since 1995. Hell, we can still "blow 'n' go", if we choose to. I think they will begin to enforce certification within the next 18 mo's.

[Dowadudda]

I have been around the business nearly all my life. And the one thing that is true in any good rack guy is, he can teach himself. He can learn on his own.

It can be one of the toughest areas of the trade for the mechanic. Long hours. Technically demanding like you have never seen before. I too say, if you can hang with a busy supermarket shop, you can damn near do anything you set your mind to in the trade after that. Money can be great, but you work for it for sure.

I got worn out myself. Just whooped. On top of the work, the polotics of the last shop I was at was unbearable. The pressure for doing things on the cheap is just kiliing very talented men. Killing their spirit. And you need soul in that kind of job.

I look at what I do now, which is some warehouse stuff, some racks. I do some small independants, but smaller. I do resturaunt stuff too. And I am slowly shedding refrigeration work to do HVAC. I am at 50/50 as of right now. HVAC service work is so much easier for me. My god. It's just that you don't have to think near as hard. In my mind HVAC is so much more straight forward. I am teaching myself hvac. I didn't know **** about air flow, static pressure, balancing. I am starting to. Way easier.

And I will tell you all something. Even larger tonnage HVAC guys, most I have met, not trying to cut on anyone, but most of the guys I run into, their refrigeration skills are lacking. An HVAC guy does not deal with the refrigeration system like a refrigeration guy does. A refrigeration guy is always having to. So when going on an air conditioning system with a refrigeration problem, it's naturally instictive for the refrigeration guy.

[bigbaldito]

I have never seen a published book on Supermarkets either, but there is usually a log book at all supermarket out here. Sometimes that is a life saver. When ever I was on job and had to recover or do something that took awhile I would sit there and read the log book, all of it sometimes years of information.

I say use to because I am no longer doing supermarkets. Like all the other guys said "If you have a good head on your shoulders, it shouild be no problem". You will have days that just drive you crazy, and good days (very rare). A good day is when you are headed home about 6p.m..
My best teacher was me, learning from my mistakes.

[frozensolid]

I loved marketwork.

[Freezeking2000]

I still love the markets and the challenges of the old racks and computer controlled TXVs, VFDs ect. I just hope i can hang until my next phase what ever that may be.

[bryan l]

Want to learn racks? Sit in front of one, follow the pipes and understand the basics of refrigeration. Its just like any and all conventional system, with some bells and whistles attached for defrosts and cold amb conditions. The rack controllers are all type specific but all do the same thing, control compressors, possibly Condensers, cases ect. You need to learn as you go. As for the overseas gig, well your going to have to relearn allot once you jump the pond, I know that Switzerland and Germany markets are generally small and don't use Racks as we have them here, the consumer market in Europe is a localized type of consumer so they have lots of small shops rather than any "Supermarkets". You could count on one hand the number of racks in say Paris or Bern (insert large city of your choice).

Working on and with racks is not a tough thing by any stretch, BUT knowing how to fine tune and pull every ounce of efficiency, predict problems and generally "be one with" the rack, that takes YEARS of late nights and early mornings asking yourself if this is REALLY worth it all. :)



Oh and mechanics that know how to install a market from the ground up PROPERLY are the best mechanics. You got to know how to spot the install problems, they are the ones that stump most guys for years and plague a store for its lifespan (or until the next reno if your lucky)

[Edited by bryan l on 11-14-2005 at 10:08 PM]

[reliableac]

All Grocery store rack companies (Hussman AKA INGERSOLL RAND, Kysor Warren, Hill pheonix, all have detailed manuals in their rack design and functions as someone said though they are built store specific Valve types, controllers ect, but what they will show you is the basic principle of the rack, basic stand alone control wiring ect.
Which BTW comes in handy when you come up on a fried ddio16 board (Danfoss controller) and have to wait on fedex to deliver the next day, which as it is always the case its the low temp rack. Anyway contact the companies the will send you the manuals might be a fee but their worth it. CPC, Danfoss, ETC controllers will also send you manuals as well, but programing is store specific.

[pherman]

jerrycoolsaz

the links to the manuals you posted don't appear. could you please email them to me?

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by jerrycoolsaz
I have not found any printed material of any consequence. Like Freezeking said, get a job with a market company and you will learn. And the 100 hours a week is no joke. I had 111 billed hours last pay period. The company I'm with put these manuals together and they are excellent.

http://img1.uploadimages.net/517857zzzzzzzzzzzzzz_(1).JPG
http://img1.uploadimages.net/729117zzzzzzzzzzzzzz.JPG

Were those the Scott Polar manuals? I got my paws on a set. Not bad, really.

Note to the previous poster- Jerry posted that a year and a half ago.

[smilies]

They are the Scott Polar books. I thought they were very good; they helped out a lot in the beginning, still do.

[condenseddave]

They're pretty nice, really. I haven't had a chance to read through them, but nice basic manuals from what I've seen.

[pherman]

embarrassing...I didn't look at the date. I assumed it was a recent thread. Where can I find a copy of those?

[270wsm]

Sporlan is doing a class on Market refrigeration. I sat through it the other day. Its not the best in the world but it would definately help with some basic knowledge on racks for someone with little experience. If nothing else the food is good.

[oogene]

wonder if sporlan has that market refrig stuff in writing ? I'm in thte same boat... we work on ice machines, beverage coolers,walkins, cases, rtu's, unit heaters....darn near anything bur the most intimidating to me is the racks !!!!

[pherman]

Yeah, the Sporlan classes aren't close by here (at least not this year). The closest is Portland or Ft. Worth to CA.

[oogene]

I found a lot of info on sporlan's website that relates to supermarkets..downloaded most of it ,now need to make time to read it.

[pherman]

just heard they are going to have one in LA or San Diego in 06

[thegoodhumorman]

Originally posted by jerrycoolsaz
They are the Scott Polar books. I thought they were very good; they helped out a lot in the beginning, still do.

The Scott Polar books are indeed pretty good,
and if you were lucky enough you got to learn with a
Mr. L. Sipe. He added some nice Tech Talk material.
Very bright man, does anyone know where he may have gone-
heard he may have transfered or relocated to Idaho-
Edison Source really dropped the ball letting him get
away (at least the way I heard it.)
Anyone?

[rselby]

Has anyone worked with the Hussmann TD's (Thermoficent Defrost) for any length of time?

[jdservice]

We still have plenty of TD systems running in northern CA.
We still have an original Ray Winther install from the early 1960's that is still running!. I have seen Raleys retrofit a TD to R-404A! Good thing they buy good leak detectors because that sure is expensive gas. Field charge was 2200 pounds. And also had Comtrol oil failing the compressors. Must be nice to reset oil fail controls with a laptop on 5H-60 compressors!

[tmfun1]

Found a book that Edison Sourse put out a few years back. More of a training text book. Covered everything from basic electrical to CPC all the way to Suppermarket start up. I don't know if they will make it public or not. It was called Edison Sourse Training Manual Dated 6/1/00. Good Luck!

[tempdelta]

Go to the store spend 10 hrs on one call, scratch your ass a couple times, flirt with the cashiers, that is supermarket refrigeration summed up into on paragraph..

[rselby]

Originally posted by tempdelta
Go to the store spend 10 hrs on one call, scratch your ass a couple times, flirt with the cashiers, that is supermarket refrigeration summed up into on paragraph..

Are you just trolling or are you serious?

[rselby]

Originally posted by jdservice
We still have plenty of TD systems running in northern CA.
We still have an original Ray Winther install from the early 1960's that is still running!. I have seen Raleys retrofit a TD to R-404A! Good thing they buy good leak detectors because that sure is expensive gas. Field charge was 2200 pounds. And also had Comtrol oil failing the compressors. Must be nice to reset oil fail controls with a laptop on 5H-60 compressors!

So your from NorCal also, way cool! We have one store that still has a Ray Winther install as well. Everybody in the valley has tied into one place or another, I'll try and post some pics, it's kinda scary when you first walk up on this TD there is copper going in 90 different directions, lines pinched off and abandoned and more bums begging for change than you can count.

[jdservice]

Our shop is in Santa Rosa. We pretty much cover all of the wine country down to the bridges. We don`t cross the bridges, plenty of work up here. Does everybody know about the TD system were talking about. The one where the discharge from the low temp compressors is pumped into the suction of either the high stage compressors [+35] or the medium temp[+20]. They did this to use R-22 for low temp application. Normal pressures for low stage are 10# suc and 45# discharge. mostly open drive carrier 5H-40 or 5H-60 compressors but I have seen stacked 5H-120 compressors at a commisary. Have also seen several done with Copeland and a couple with carlyle 06D compressors. I sure do love market refrigeration!!!

[condenseddave]

Originally posted by rselby

Originally posted by tempdelta
Go to the store spend 10 hrs on one call, scratch your ass a couple times, flirt with the cashiers, that is supermarket refrigeration summed up into on paragraph..

Are you just trolling or are you serious?

He's either new, trolling, or works for someone that has one or two stores.

In any case, I want his job.

[rselby]

Originally posted by condenseddave

Originally posted by rselby

Originally posted by tempdelta
Go to the store spend 10 hrs on one call, scratch your ass a couple times, flirt with the cashiers, that is supermarket refrigeration summed up into on paragraph..

Are you just trolling or are you serious?

He's either new, trolling, or works for someone that has one or two stores.

In any case, I want his job.

Well Dave, if this guy is really serious he's a freakin' retard. There's always seems to be at-least one.

[NedFlanders]

Originally posted by jdservice
Our shop is in Santa Rosa. We pretty much cover all of the wine country down to the bridges. We don`t cross the bridges, plenty of work up here. Does everybody know about the TD system were talking about. The one where the discharge from the low temp compressors is pumped into the suction of either the high stage compressors [+35] or the medium temp[+20]. They did this to use R-22 for low temp application. Normal pressures for low stage are 10# suc and 45# discharge. mostly open drive carrier 5H-40 or 5H-60 compressors but I have seen stacked 5H-120 compressors at a commisary. Have also seen several done with Copeland and a couple with carlyle 06D compressors. I sure do love market refrigeration!!!

We have some survivors down here , at least 3 that I know of.
They've proven themselves , but I think their time has come.

I had some fun with them , but I NEVER like getting a call at a store with one .
If Goodhumorman see's this , he can tell you a bad story or 2 of an old one we know of.(poor S.O.B.)

I've been lucky enough to miss out on those stories .
Where I work now , we don't sevice any , and I don't miss them at all . ;)

[rselby]

Originally posted by jdservice
Our shop is in Santa Rosa. We pretty much cover all of the wine country down to the bridges. We don`t cross the bridges, plenty of work up here. Does everybody know about the TD system were talking about. The one where the discharge from the low temp compressors is pumped into the suction of either the high stage compressors [+35] or the medium temp[+20]. They did this to use R-22 for low temp application. Normal pressures for low stage are 10# suc and 45# discharge. mostly open drive carrier 5H-40 or 5H-60 compressors but I have seen stacked 5H-120 compressors at a commisary. Have also seen several done with Copeland and a couple with carlyle 06D compressors. I sure do love market refrigeration!!!

We have about 12+ in my area, many have been converted from the push /pull oiling systems to a reservoir and solenoid valve at the oil float. I hate it when the plant goes down at 2:00AM and the store manager calls in an hour later, usually by the time your on-site all the liquid migrates out to the high temp cases and the low temp machines are full of liquid, the medium temps have the majority of the oil and then it's rodeo time, Yeeee Hawwwwww. I've got it down to about an hour and a half to two hours with the plant up and running totally normal. I love it when the apprentices take a call with the plant down like that. The first thing they do is press the O/F reset and I get to do a top end re-build. I'm not an expert with them, I know about 6 guys who know everything there is to know about them so I've got a great support system. When they are running right they are hard to beat, KOOL GASS BABY it's the only way to go!

[markettech]

Originally posted by tempdelta
Go to the store spend 10 hrs on one call, scratch your ass a couple times, flirt with the cashiers, that is supermarket refrigeration summed up into on paragraph..

THAT'S what I've been doing wrong all these years!
To think I actually repair the equipment and bust butt to the next call - color my face red!

[tempdelta]

at least a few have a little humor in that.. We all know that in market u bust your rear.. Everyone knows that when u get through 3 calls thier are about 5 more on your way home.. Actually we have about 40 stores.. Work on Munters / octogon dehmids, hill ; kysor ; huss racks.. The part I was getting at is, worry bout the call your on.. including superheat @ cases.. Most go to one call, frozen up case on one circuit, wash it out change a fuse in the def circuit.. down the road. Why not do a quick p/t check @ the coils? I'm talking mostly about convetionals that are off on oil fail due to floodback.. Seems like one after the next.. Tell me that takes 2 hrs.. think again.

[dixie2005]

Get a lot of information on the various valves on Sporlan website. Info on CPC at their website too. There's a piping diagram on the Sporlan website too that is useful.

[markettech]

Originally posted by tempdelta
Most go to one call, frozen up case on one circuit, wash it out change a fuse in the def circuit.. down the road. Why not do a quick p/t check @ the coils? I'm talking mostly about convetionals that are off on oil fail due to floodback.. Seems like one after the next.. Tell me that takes 2 hrs.. think again.

In my dream world it would be great to spend as much time at a supermarket as (I feel) is needed. Unfortunately, in the real world, several times I no more than walk through the door to a store and the office is already wanting to know how long until I can get to the next customer.

We've all been there I bet. One things for sure, my follow up notebook will ensure that I never run out of things to do.