Refrigerant Recovery Tanks

[CumulusMech]

I am interested in recieving everyones perspectives on this subject please .
I picked up a recovery tank from a wholesaler . It was not bought new , just a recycled tank from Fielding Chemicals . If it is returned empty you get charged , if it is full no charge . In Ontario thats the general deal .
In the past I have posed the question to the wholesaler , what is the quality assurance that the tank is resonably clean ? The responce I was given was that there may be some undesirable vapores or an oil film in the tank from an unknown refrigerant or oil . I was never told that these tanks were the sole purpose for containment and transportation back to Fielding Chemical for clean up only . I have also never seen any documentation to support this .
I , and many mechanics and HVAC companies have been using these cylinders for serviceing systems , ie. recovery into and charging back into the same system . Only to be returned when the cylinder was full . Seemed kind of convienient .
Anyway , picked up a cylinder , evacuated the tank to 300 microns , recoverd into the tank and charged from the said tank back into the system . Well , when there was approx 10 pounds left I noticed the delta p on the suction gauge began to drop off . I removed the charging hose from the tank and found a fine dust , or dirt of some kind coat the bottom of my gauges manifold . The tank was poluted with some kind of debrise , dry debrise . No I did not use a dryer in line with my charging hose . Never have . Now I suspect there is debrise sitting in the bottom of the oil crank , or is hopefully getting trapped into the dryer . I left that circuit off untill the service manager can be informed . Does anyone use these cylinders for servicing ? Should the wholesaler not make provisions to state clearly that these cylinders cannot be used for servicing as described >|????? Anyone !!

[fr420]

I've had the same problem on more then one occasion, that is getting dirty or contaminated recovery cylinders. Now i buy the one shots and just put a valve on it. Never had a problem with those. If working on a larger system Im forced to use recovery cylinder, i use a dryer and hope for the best..

[CumulusMech]

I've had the same problem on more then one occasion, that is getting dirty or contaminated recovery cylinders. Now i buy the one shots and just put a valve on it. Never had a problem with those. If working on a larger system Im forced to use recovery cylinder, i use a dryer and hope for the best..

Interesting response . This is the first time I have had this happen , and the first time I have ever heard that this could be a serious issue . It will never happen to me again , if i still have a job .
Great to hear from you fr420 .

[Octopus]

I've had the same problem on more then one occasion, that is getting dirty or contaminated recovery cylinders. Now i buy the one shots and just put a valve on it. Never had a problem with those. If working on a larger system Im forced to use recovery cylinder, i use a dryer and hope for the best..

Isn't that kind of illegal??:eek2::whistle:

[fr420]

Isn't that kind of illegal??:eek2::whistle:

I beleif if you reuse them it's illegal, never said i reuse them. But I could be wrong!!!

[CumulusMech]

I've had the same problem on more then one occasion, that is getting dirty or contaminated recovery cylinders. Now i buy the one shots and just put a valve on it. Never had a problem with those. If working on a larger system Im forced to use recovery cylinder, i use a dryer and hope for the best..

Just curious fr420 , how did the dirt affect the system . Did you loose the compressor , or just change the dryer out ? THis system in question is a 30 ton compressor , a Trane hemetic . I was concidering removing the oil if there is a dip tube at the oil charging port and changeing the dryer , worst case cenario , apart from loosing the compressor .
The material that was observed looked like very fine rust particles ? its really hard to say .
chishvacman , any sugestions ?.

[ascj]

We use recovery tanks from U/R (NRP). The manager said, that all their reusable tanks are internally cleaned(hence why they have the valves shrinked wrapped). I asked how they internally clean them. He didn't know, but said he would find out. Hmm.......that was at least 3 years ago. :LOL:

[mrllyonsden]

As far as I am concerned, recovery tanks are for disposal only. I have never re-used refrigerant from a recovery cylinder, virgin gas only back into a system. Thats my view, If you recovered the refrigerant, it was because of a problem with the system right?

[ascj]

As far as I am concerned, recovery tanks are for disposal only. I have never re-used refrigerant from a recovery cylinder, virgin gas only back into a system. Thats my view, If you recovered the refrigerant, it was because of a problem with the system right?

I had a small leak on the discharge valve of a 150ton Carrier chiller. Been adding about 30 pounds a years to circuit 1. New engineer now wants it fixed. I can't isolate it. So I have to remove 158 pounds of gas, to replace it.

There is no way I just putting virgin gas in. Why would I?

[DITAW]

As far as I am concerned, recovery tanks are for disposal only. I have never re-used refrigerant from a recovery cylinder, virgin gas only back into a system. Thats my view, If you recovered the refrigerant, it was because of a problem with the system right?

that would get alittle expensive for a 2500 ton chiller :D

[fr420]

We use recovery tanks from U/R (NRP). The manager said, that all their reusable tanks are internally cleaned(hence why they have the valves shrinked wrapped). I asked how they internally clean them. He didn't know, but said he would find out. Hmm.......that was at least 3 years ago. :LOL:

That's where we get our tanks also, they didnt really seem to care when i *****ed and only offered me another tank, but at that point it was to late. I took a Chiiler course and the teacher said this happens alot. He suggested weighing cylinders and if it doesnt match tare weight then thats a good indication there is foriegn material in there

[fr420]

Just curious fr420 , how did the dirt affect the system . Did you loose the compressor , or just change the dryer out ? THis system in question is a 30 ton compressor , a Trane hemetic . I was concidering removing the oil if there is a dip tube at the oil charging port and changeing the dryer , worst case cenario , apart from loosing the compressor .
The material that was observed looked like very fine rust particles ? its really hard to say .
chishvacman , any sugestions ?.

Just did a normal cleanup on system, changed driers and oil and system was fine. It just takes extra time and time is money!!!!!

[DFZ]

had a system where upon recharging my manifold plugged solid, then two weeks later the txv's and then the solinoids. alot of extra work and expense because of dirty tanks.

[M100 Tech]

We only rent tanks to return refrigerant in. We have tanks for every type and oil! If the oil or refrigerant are bad, we rent a tank and pull the charge and then return it all. We (I) only use our shop tanks if it is good and clean! Then again, dont swap tanks between different oils! You are asking for trouble!

[CumulusMech]

Isn't that kind of illegal??:eek2::whistle:

chrisvacman , whats your expeirience with this ? Have you ever heard of this happening ? In the past I have had management actually recommend that we use those cylinders just for the very convienience of not haveing to purchase cylinders , records and pressure test every five years .

[CumulusMech]

As far as I am concerned, recovery tanks are for disposal only. I have never re-used refrigerant from a recovery cylinder, virgin gas only back into a system. Thats my view, If you recovered the refrigerant, it was because of a problem with the system right?

I agree mrllyonsden . Thats what Fielding Chemicals said . And thats what I say now . But I get the impression that the wholesalers should be better educated on this since they are providing the cylinders . At the very least put up a notice from Fielding Chemicals stateing the sole purpose of the cylinders . There could LITTERALY be anything in those cylinders , forget about just residuale oil or vapours .

[CumulusMech]

We only rent tanks to return refrigerant in. We have tanks for every type and oil! If the oil or refrigerant are bad, we rent a tank and pull the charge and then return it all. We (I) only use our shop tanks if it is good and clean! Then again, dont swap tanks between different oils! You are asking for trouble!

I could not agree more , proper refrigant mangement is the key . I am begging to wounder if it makes more sence to puchase your own tanks , one for mineral or alkabenzene and one for poe .

[CumulusMech]

We use recovery tanks from U/R (NRP). The manager said, that all their reusable tanks are internally cleaned(hence why they have the valves shrinked wrapped). I asked how they internally clean them. He didn't know, but said he would find out. Hmm.......that was at least 3 years ago. :LOL:

I would sugest that you call the chemical company and ask what their standards are ? Its the only way . Cover your behind .

[klove]

As far as I am concerned, recovery tanks are for disposal only. I have never re-used refrigerant from a recovery cylinder, virgin gas only back into a system. Thats my view, If you recovered the refrigerant, it was because of a problem with the system right?

You've never had to pull refgt to repair a leak?

[mrllyonsden]

You've never had to pull refgt to repair a leak?

Of course I have, R-12,22&502 were not issues back when they were the big three, still would not re-use anyways. The refrigerant replacement is always figured into the repair cost no matter what. These blends of today, no question, never re-use. Complete recovery and evacuation with new refrigerant every time. You replace the filter drier every time the system is recovered and opened right?

[klove]

Of course I have, R-12,22&502 were not issues back when they were the big three, still would not re-use anyways. The refrigerant replacement is always figured into the repair cost no matter what. These blends of today, no question, never re-use. Complete recovery and evacuation with new refrigerant every time. You replace the filter drier every time the system is recovered and opened right?

Per your quote, you would never reuse a refrigerant that wasn't a blend, either, so why even try and qualify the statement by doing that? Yes, if you open a system for repairs it's always good practice to replace a filter that has been catching debris or adsorbing moisture, but to compare that to replacing an entire charge of perfectly good refrigerant when you have at least some if not most of that charge that was recovered for service purposes is comparing apples and oranges. Companies that engage in that sort of practice give our industry in general a bad name.

[largetonnage]

As far as I am concerned, recovery tanks are for disposal only. I have never re-used refrigerant from a recovery cylinder, virgin gas only back into a system. Thats my view, If you recovered the refrigerant, it was because of a problem with the system right?

2500 pounds of r-11 pulled because of a leak,and your going to make the customer eat the cost???????????????? just because you like the word
"virgin".................................................. ....

[DITAW]

i could understand if it is a small system but when you get involved in large tonnage you would be out of work if you tried to replace the charge every time you needed to remove for service, the cost would be ridiculous.

[mrllyonsden]

i could understand if it is a small system but when you get involved in large tonnage you would be out of work if you tried to replace the charge every time you needed to remove for service, the cost would be ridiculous.

I can understand all of you and your concerns, I also realize in big city applications things can get pretty large. But up here in the sticks, a 500 ton chiller is about as big as it gets. My personal experience, 700 pounds of refrigerant is about the largest capacity system I have dealt with. Ammonia system 18,000 pounds, but that's a cat of a different color.

[fr420]

I can understand all of you and your concerns, I also realize in big city applications things can get pretty large. But up here in the sticks, a 500 ton chiller is about as big as it gets. My personal experience, 700 pounds of refrigerant is about the largest capacity system I have dealt with. Ammonia system 18,000 pounds, but that's a cat of a different color.

Sounds to me that your doing your customer a disservice. That's a waste of money. And I've done alot of large tonnage refigeration and those blends are not as critical as you think.

[mrllyonsden]

Sounds to me that your doing your customer a disservice. That's a waste of money. I would think a customers price to replace 700lbs of r-22 would be min 5000 and then add disposal or recycle fee for 700lbs of r-22 thats outrages to me............

Now I didn't say I replaced 700 pounds of refrigerant that was recovered, there are exceptions to every rule. I guess I have been fortunate enough to be able to pump down large capacity systems for leak repairs with limited virgin gas repacement.(That was for you largetonnage. LOL!). I am not out ramrodding customers making money on refrigerant, I am just making a point about recovery cylinders that seems to have gotten out of hand. Seems to happen alot around here.

[klove]

Now I didn't say I replaced 700 pounds of refrigerant that was recovered, there are exceptions to every rule. I guess I have been fortunate enough to be able to pump down large capacity systems for leak repairs with limited virgin gas repacement.(That was for you largetonnage. LOL!). I am not out ramrodding customers making money on refrigerant, I am just making a point about recovery cylinders that seems to have gotten out of hand. Seems to happen alot around here.

Nothing got out of hand. Replies were made to exactly what you said, and now you say that the statement you made about refrigerant replacement was a lie. Sounds to me like you need to think before you speak.

[mrllyonsden]

Nothing got out of hand. Replies were made to exactly what you said, and now you say that the statement you made about refrigerant replacement was a lie. Sounds to me like you need to think before you speak.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm........

[mrllyonsden]

Now lets put this whole thing into perspective, how often do you actually have to recover a system? I do not work for a huge company, there are only four of us out there doing service daily. Personally I have used my reclaimer maybe 10 times in the last 12 months, according to kept records, I have not reclaimed more than 400 pounds in that time. 90% of that was for equipment replacement, not for repairs of leaks where the refrigerant could have been re-used. Sometimes we are all too quick to jump, I am not doing anyone a disservice in my career.:argue:

[klove]

If what you said initially is incorrect, then correct it and quit tapdancing. You said that you always replaced recovered refrigerant with virgin refrigerant, did you not? Then correct the statement if it's wrong. If your statement was a good representation of what you actually do in practice, then my personal opinion is that particular practice amounts to nothing more than legalized theft. I don't give a rats rear end how many, how few, how little, you recover, or the size of your company and how many times you drag out a recovery unit. Each customer is an individual job. They don't care, either. If you can do it, look at yourself in the mirror every day, and sleep with a clear conscience, then knock yourself out. But don't expect to come on here and say the things you've said and not get a severe rebuttal from folks that feel the way I do.

Now.......Did you speak too quickly the first time and need to retract that statement and replace it with one that's more in line with your actual practice, do you need to qualify what you said for a particular situation, or are you going to ride that horse to the ground?

[mrllyonsden]

Sorry guys I won't retract anything, I stand strong. All work is quoted and reviewed by the customer, fully knowing what is going to happen and the full cost. Everyone does things differently, legalized theft, I think not. Again I say, recovery tanks are for disposal only.

[klove]

Sorry guys I won't retract anything, I stand strong. All work is quoted and reviewed by the customer, fully knowing what is going to happen and the full cost. Everyone does things differently, legalized theft, I think not. Again I say, recovery tanks are for disposal only.

Customers are often under the impression that they can trust their vendors to act in their best interest. It's a shame they can't in certain areas of the country.

[DITAW]

:couch:

[triggerhappy]

Sorry guys I won't retract anything, I stand strong. All work is quoted and reviewed by the customer, fully knowing what is going to happen and the full cost. Everyone does things differently, legalized theft, I think not. Again I say, recovery tanks are for disposal only.

I am still unclear what you are saying.

I assume that you are reffering to recovery tanks that you rent from a vendor. I agree that there you are taking your chances.

But this is where I am unclear: If you are talking about the recovery tanks owned and maintained by your company I have to strongly disagree.
It is standard operating procedure to recover ref. and to recharge into the unit.

I recovery on average of 2 to 3 charges a month. It is no way to justify replacing the charge on a leak repair or brg. inspection unless you have a bad ref. analysis.

On a low pres. machine it is not uncommon to reuse ref. after a mild burn.

If you are saying that you can not recover ref. and reuse you are way out in left field.....You are so left field that you may not even be able to see Obama from there.

[GT Jets]

Sorry guys I won't retract anything, I stand strong. All work is quoted and reviewed by the customer, fully knowing what is going to happen and the full cost. Everyone does things differently, legalized theft, I think not. Again I say, recovery tanks are for disposal only.

You can have refrigerant analyzed for $100, as an example, it costs twice that to dispose of the charge for a 5 ton gaspack....I don't think you are making any friends and think of the impact on the environment...

The only time I dispose of a refrigerant charge is if the system has had a peppered past or tests bad....Period.

I have put as little as 1 lb. back into service after a TXV replacement, as far as I know it is still running fine.

Do you think they are going to keep making phase out refrigerants forever? All of the R12 you can get right now is reclaimed.....Just sayin'.

GT

[mrllyonsden]

:couch:

Amen to that.

[snowcold]

Why do I have to pressure test the AC system with dry nitrogen. Can't I just put some refrigerant and use the leak detector ?

[milkyway]

Why do I have to pressure test the AC system with dry nitrogen. Can't I just put some refrigerant and use the leak detector ?
dont think u want to to pressure test with refrigerant., your service manager should teach u that..

[Dilp172]

Heres a link to a unit on ebay,it sure looks like a standard compressed air tank underneath,makes me wonder if i can now make my own,if you think about it you can use a water heater body if you plug the unused ports and put the proper relief on it.(not that i would)

[basshound71]

If everybody is so conserned with tank trash why don't you just run the refrigerant through a dryer when you put it back in?

[keviekev70]

As far as I am concerned, recovery tanks are for disposal only. I have never re-used refrigerant from a recovery cylinder, virgin gas only back into a system. Thats my view, If you recovered the refrigerant, it was because of a problem with the system right?

same here, only virgin back into the system..

[BKS60]

same here, only virgin back into the system..

Ok lets say you just pulled a charge and replaced a stopped up dryer that was found to have a major temp drop across it. You vacummed and weighed in a virgin charge.

Now you start the unit and OH H#LL the orifice header tubes are stopped up to. Would be almost impossible to have diagnosed prior due to the drier restriction. So you recover the charge you just put in.

After changing the orifice header what you gonna do????

[keviekev70]

Ok lets say you just pulled a charge and replaced a stopped up dryer that was found to have a major temp drop across it. You vacummed and weighed in a virgin charge.

Now you start the unit and OH H#LL the orifice header tubes are stopped up to. Would be almost impossible to have diagnosed prior due to the drier restriction. So you recover the charge you just put in.

After changing the orifice header what you gonna do????

In this case I will recycle the refrigerant back to the system...But generally speaking if I recover less than 30lb of used refrigerant I tend not to recycle. I prefer to use virgin gas rather than putting back possable contaminated gas back into the system even though the F/D's are replaced.

[ga1279]

One company I worked for had the big 1000# tanks with the liquid dip tube. We simply used a 3 or 4 core replaceable shell with valves on the inlet and outlet. It was piped to the base of the tank for liquid recovery push / pull. When it came time to return the refrigerant to the vessel it went through a new set of clean-up cores before it went back in the chiller. If the situation was warranted all the valves were removed and (bite my tongue ) R-123 was circulated through the tank. The top refrigerant level gauge port (float) was removed and a spray header was installed in it's place to spray all down the sides of the tank to the bottom and returned through replaceable cores to a refrigerant pump and kept circulating until the delta "P" across the cores was negligible. As bad as R-123 maybe it is one excellent cleaner. The refrigerant was then pumped into a holding cylinder, the R-123 liquid and vapor was pulled via a recovery system to micron range. The system was charged with dry nitrogen to 10 CFH while all connections were removed. The drum was left with a 5# holding charge of dry nitrogen until the next use, when it was evacuated. Any of the labor cost 5 hours per cylinder was added to the job costing. The also had air compressor tanks with 10' blind flanges 6" from the bottom, welded on the side for reaching in and cleaning. Even with these avail options there were times when you got dirty tanks on the job delivered right in front of the customer. That's always a hard one to explain-GEO

[GT Jets]

same here, only virgin back into the system..

Sooooooo how are you determining whether or not you have the proper oil charge if you throw away all of the old, oil laden refrigerant?

Your practices are only helping accounts payable in making more money for the company, your not doing any other good at all, period. Just my opinion...

GT

[milkyway]

Sooooooo how are you determining whether or not you have the proper oil charge if you throw away all of the old, oil laden refrigerant?

Your practices are only helping accounts payable in making more money for the company, your not doing any other good at all, period. Just my opinion...

GT


i agree with u

[Healey Nut]

Originally Posted by keviekev70
same here, only virgin back into the system..


So lets say you have a 1000ton chiller on R123 and for the sake of argument it has 1500lbs in it . Its purring like a kitten no oil loss no issues . It develops a minor leak at the evap to liquid line flange . The only way to fix it it to pull the charge .
I can hear the phone call now .
Hello Mr Customer . I have that repair quote for you chiller it of course includes a totally new refrigerant charge just because were removing it and we at Hack Air only use virgin refrigerant . You quote will be 60 G's .......When can we start ?????????

Silence is golden as they say !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[NewportNic]

I oversee a facility for a Major Manufacturer and if my folks didn't recycle and we reported that level of use, their environmental folks would have a ... :censored::censored:
... and they would find a new FM.

Klaus
Walbridge FM
"I owe it all to little chocolate donuts." John Belushi (1-24-49 to 3-5-82)

[keviekev70]

Sooooooo how are you determining whether or not you have the proper oil charge if you throw away all of the old, oil laden refrigerant?

Your practices are only helping accounts payable in making more money for the company, your not doing any other good at all, period. Just my opinion...

GT

I'm a little residential, light commercial tech, not a big chiller guy, we are not in the business to loose money, if the cost of refrigerant is less than getting a call back or not getting to the next call, so virgin refrigerant is the way to go. What the office does is none of my business.

[BKS60]

I'm a little residential, light commercial tech, not a big chiller guy, we are not in the business to loose money, if the cost of refrigerant is less than getting a call back or not getting to the next call, so virgin refrigerant is the way to go. What the office does is none of my business.

You may want to go to the top of the page and look at the forum this is under. 100, 500, 2000lbs and more are normal charges.

[keviekev70]

Originally Posted by keviekev70
same here, only virgin back into the system..


So lets say you have a 1000ton chiller on R123 and for the sake of argument it has 1500lbs in it . Its purring like a kitten no oil loss no issues . It develops a minor leak at the evap to liquid line flange . The only way to fix it it to pull the charge .
I can hear the phone call now .
Hello Mr Customer . I have that repair quote for you chiller it of course includes a totally new refrigerant charge just because were removing it and we at Hack Air only use virgin refrigerant . You quote will be 60 G's .......When can we start ?????????

Silence is golden as they say !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

graham at least my phone's ringing and this when I sub it out to you...lolzz

[BKS60]

keviekev70

You may want to slow down and read the quote from graham you quoted!

Under your self stated beliefs I doubt your phone would be ringing and I an SURE you would not be able to subcontract him.

[keviekev70]

keviekev70

You may want to slow down and read the quote from graham you quoted!

Under your self stated beliefs I doubt your phone would be ringing and I an SURE you would not be able to subcontract him.

@BKS60 and what does you comment has to do with Refrigerant Recovery Tanks? have'nt seen you posted your views on this tread. BTW most of the units I work on has less than 30lb refrigerant per circuit and my way is to use virgin refrigerant to recharge every system.

[BKS60]

Ok, my veiw is that recovering perfectly good refrigerant with the intent to replace is an unprofessional waste of the customers trust and money.

There are easy and economical ways to check refrigerants for moisture and/or acid content. Whether 5, 50, or 500 pounds a professional will make every effort not to waste a customers money and abuse the trust given to a professional.

From previous posts I can easily see where you place your ethics.