Where have all the techs gone??

[dash]

Less qualified applicants today then during the boom.Not just this site, everywhere we try.


What's up,major lay off by many in 2007 and 08.Where are they now??

[yellowirenut]

not sure..boss was looking for a tech last spring. Not one meet his criteria.

not a sales tech
able to work on wide range of equipment
able to work alone
clean appearance
Military carrier a plus..navy ++

He put the word out the the VA about hiring a vet, but i never herd if he got leads from that. I know they have a program to help vets and former military get civilian jobs, try there.

[Senior Tech]

A good seasoned tech is impossible to get...even a good trainable person is nearly impossible to find.

I like to think I can train anyone, but it's getting tougher and tougher.

Retaining the techs you have now is extremely important based on the cost to hire and train a new one.

[KY-kid]

not sure..boss was looking for a tech last spring. Not one meet his criteria.

not a sales tech
able to work on wide range of equipment
able to work alone
clean appearance
Military carrier a plus..navy ++

He put the word out the the VA about hiring a vet, but i never herd if he got leads from that. I know they have a program to help vets and former military get civilian jobs, try there.

Probably your first requirement is why your boss is having problems...

No offense but if people are not selling as you said " not a sales tech "- weather it be PM contracts, New Units- Filters - Thermostats,,,, something , then they realy are not progressing or making money for the company or themselves....

just seems kind of backwards, I dont know anyone that calls a Doctor and expects they would not get a recomendation for something that could better them, why would they expect anything different from any other service.

But then ofcourse you prove my point when you said , he could not find anyone that meets his criteria, maybe if he looked to the local Taco Bell or Wendys or Homeless shelter...lol. They tend to hire down, anyone with talent is certainly not going to want to go to or stay at a place where they want them to be a complete illiterate idiot for sure.

[DeltaT]

It's called lack of intestinal fortitude. My generation, not me by any means, started it by letting kids be who they wanted to be...and that pretty much meant taking the easy way to most anything in life. They were allowed to live that life at home and taught to live that life when they walked out the door to attend school. And that is the short version.

On this board with most folks over 45 you have a mean, lean bunch of tough guys/gals who stick it out until the job/work is completed. There are certainly some exceptions to that rule however there are cases shown on here from time to time where a demanding attitude and entitled minded technicians are doing everything but taking responsibility for what they have done.

That's the way we were taught. Learn all you can, take your bumps in the road, do every job with pride and try to lean more than the next guy.

We cheated our kids out of that life by not ever letting them fall down so they could figure out how and that they could pick themselves up again.

Some rambling on of recent observations: Ask a lot of folks what the key to getting through the "recession", which it's not, and they will tell you they need to return back to school and get a masters, PHD or some such crap.

From what I see no ones talking about working their way out. They are waiting for their house value to go up or waiting for their easy well paying job to come back...or waiting for a federal job.

Washington State college administrator was on the news yesterday stating that in a few years the US will be in big trouble. Why you ask? According to him there are less and less folks getting BS & BA degrees so who is going to do the thinking, he states.

This is the crap that we have let take over this country. It's not about analytic thinking and self sufficiency anymore, and it hasn't been for quite a while. It's about looking good and having some kind of a degree...just look what's sitting in the White House.

We set this ship in motion years ago. Now we have to live with the port it ended up in.

[supertek65]

hi ron!!!!!!!!!!

yeah! nothing sells itself in ANY market!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
nobody just says"Go ahead and fix my chiller! Don't care about the price or how long it takes or your rates!!" "don't care what parts you are using, what brand or warranty, Just go ahead and fix it!!!!!"


Probably your first requirement is why your boss is having problems...

No offense but if people are not selling as you said " not a sales tech "- weather it be PM contracts, New Units- Filters - Thermostats,,,, something , then they realy are not progressing or making money for the company or themselves....

just seems kind of backwards, I dont know anyone that calls a Doctor and expects they would not get a recomendation for something that could better them, why would they expect anything different from any other service.

But then ofcourse you prove my point when you said , he could not find anyone that meets his criteria, maybe if he looked to the local Taco Bell or Wendys...lol. They tend to hire down.

[KY-kid]

hi ron!!!!!!!!!!

yeah! nothing sells itself in ANY market!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
nobody just says"Go ahead and fix my chiller! Don't care about the price or how long it takes or your rates!!" "don't care what parts you are using, what brand or warranty, Just go ahead and fix it!!!!!"

Hey Bro Whats Up,

My point exactly , some act as if sales is a bad word, but for goodness sake if someone has a 20 year old unit sucking money every year and I go out and just clean a pitted contactor - but then fail to mention that the caps are all over 10% out of range, the fans and compressor are all drawing a lot of amps and fail to ask how much they intend to repair it every year, then I am probably doing them more of a dis-service.

Ofcourse I made my company a few dollars for the call, but the $2000 mid-summer call may not make the customer real happy, and when they find out that I failed to tell them about rebates available, savings on units, etc,,, I dont think they will have a very high opinion of my slothfullness.

I mean there is a differnece with new units and it is profound. I know from my own home I save a bundle with a newer unit, and the last time I checked even getting a fan motor replaced once a year is going to cost a few hundred if you get a good company.


:pileon:

[yellowirenut]

replacing contractors that are pitted and have voltage loss across them is not sales to him. Same with capacitors out of range. Not diagnosing a unit and just looking at its age and telling them u need your 30 ton RTU replaced, that is a sales tech to me. I may asked them if interested in quarterly service, but not my place to give them quotes. I don't even know how much it cost to have me there for an hour..i do know aprox to get me there to diagnose. I give no quotes on repair or replace. I am there to evaluate..diagnose..repair..and have the customer trust our work. lots of customers that tell me 'all the other co. wanted to do was sell me this and that' when the real problem was solved in 30 minuets.


we have gone off topic..sorry for that

[supertek65]

:hijacked:

[Milk man]

I'm a seasoned tech.

I'm done with the dog and pony show called looking for a better job.

I don't know what rate a job will start at until I sit through an interview. It's was usually AT LOT LOWER than I was being paid already.

I get blasted here when I have interview/looked for a job because I was wasting the new guys time.

Plus every application I've ever filled out wanted my social security number. Sorry I don't give that out on every request. YOU AS A PROSPECTIVE EMPLOYER DO NOT NEED MY SSN UNTIL THE SECOND INTERVIEW. PERIOD. If you like me and a serious offer is being considered I'll provide you with all the information you want. You are free to do all the background checks on me at that point. I'll protect my identity while you guys are fishing.

Also I'm comfortable in my job. I've got a routine. The customers know and like me. I've got the regular PM equipment set up the way I want to make my job easier, faster, and cheaper to maintain. I really don't want to start over.

My employer liked me and treats me with respect, why would I want to change?

I'm also not a selling tech. I'll "sell" the stuff that is needed to repair the equipment. I'll also let the customer know about better alternatives. But I won't push a thermostat just for the purpose of increasing a ticket total.

[Twilly]

Twilli says the answer is simple many techs have become owners and hence the shortage of techs and the over supply of owners.

[sw_lv2005]

Less qualified applicants today then during the boom.Not just this site, everywhere we try.


What's up,major lay off by many in 2007 and 08.Where are they now??

Its always the same cycle as stated above less qualified applicants everywhere you try ,I heard the same thing in the navy due to manning issues not enough people on older ships, the navy now is downsizing making it worse so the solution would be to hire new recruits and train them/ some will work out some will not it cost money to do that, If you have a good boss he can afford this and still stay in business/ the same thing for hvac company to hire a good tech or a new guy out of school some will work out some will not. Some of the other post on this have these guys going to school or just trying to get into the trade but companies will not give these guys a chance to get experience so be prepared to keep finding people with not enough experience, How did some of you guys get your start somebody more than likely gave you a chance or you know somebody in the trade or got a job on your skills, Its the same cycle every where you go.I heard the same BS when i got out navy trying to find a job. But some body gave me chance to learn the civilian hvac side instead of a ship ac system

[Jettaknight]

It's called lack of intestinal fortitude. My generation, not me by any means, started it by letting kids be who they wanted to be...and that pretty much meant taking the easy way to most anything in life. They were allowed to live that life at home and taught to live that life when they walked out the door to attend school. And that is the short version.

On this board with most folks over 45 you have a mean, lean bunch of tough guys/gals who stick it out until the job/work is completed. There are certainly some exceptions to that rule however there are cases shown on here from time to time where a demanding attitude and entitled minded technicians are doing everything but taking responsibility for what they have done.

That's the way we were taught. Learn all you can, take your bumps in the road, do every job with pride and try to lean more than the next guy.

We cheated our kids out of that life by not ever letting them fall down so they could figure out how and that they could pick themselves up again.

Some rambling on of recent observations: Ask a lot of folks what the key to getting through the "recession", which it's not, and they will tell you they need to return back to school and get a masters, PHD or some such crap.

From what I see no ones talking about working their way out. They are waiting for their house value to go up or waiting for their easy well paying job to come back...or waiting for a federal job.

Washington State college administrator was on the news yesterday stating that in a few years the US will be in big trouble. Why you ask? According to him there are less and less folks getting BS & BA degrees so who is going to do the thinking, he states.

This is the crap that we have let take over this country. It's not about analytic thinking and self sufficiency anymore, and it hasn't been for quite a while. It's about looking good and having some kind of a degree...just look what's sitting in the White House.

We set this ship in motion years ago. Now we have to live with the port it ended up in.

Bingo...

Not long ago I read an article regarding technical "snobbery" that pretty much summed it up. Blue collar vs white collar. Parents wanting there kids to be a doctor or lawyer, etc. "Trade school??!! That's for the 'remedial' children my boy! Your more intelligent than that..."

We've done it to ourselves. Our parents 'slaved' for a buck, we bust our arses to keep our homes and so we don't want our kids to do the same. We encourage them to go to university...get a nice high paying job...

When we come home what's our attitude? Are we *****in' and complaining about our day at work? Kids read into that. They are smart. So they say, "No way am I working the trades. Look at my dad!! He's always miserable."

I don't have any children to 'mentor' but I do have 4 nephews that all want to get into the trades. Our oldest is enrolled in electrical and is loving it. My B/L and I have encouraged them all from day one. Talked about our days working with a smile and had a good laugh when the day was lousy or the boss was an arse.

Once in a while we have these days where you bring your kid to work. For one or two days a year not much work gets done but the kids love it and get excited about the trade. Maybe all the do is carry your toolbag but to them that is a blast.

If we want the kids to get into the trades we have to sell them on it. It's easier to attract them with sugar than sh*t.

[supertek65]

this is a big discussion in our family!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i usually say
go to college go white collar
stay healthy
dont kill yourself:cliff:





Bingo...

Not long ago I read an article regarding technical "snobbery" that pretty much summed it up. Blue collar vs white collar. Parents wanting there kids to be a doctor or lawyer, etc. "Trade school??!! That's for the 'remedial' children my boy! Your more intelligent than that..."

We've done it to ourselves. Our parents 'slaved' for a buck, we bust our arses to keep our homes and so we don't want our kids to do the same. We encourage them to go to university...get a nice high paying job...

When we come home what's our attitude? Are we *****in' and complaining about our day at work? Kids read into that. They are smart. So they say, "No way am I working the trades. Look at my dad!! He's always miserable."

I don't have any children to 'mentor' but I do have 4 nephews that all want to get into the trades. Our oldest is enrolled in electrical and is loving it. My B/L and I have encouraged them all from day one. Talked about our days working with a smile and had a good laugh when the day was lousy or the boss was an arse.

Once in a while we have these days where you bring your kid to work. For one or two days a year not much work gets done but the kids love it and get excited about the trade. Maybe all the do is carry your toolbag but to them that is a blast.

If we want the kids to get into the trades we have to sell them on it. It's easier to attract them with sugar than sh*t.

[durussel78]

Heya ALL
That is a huge problem in MICHIGAN the mitten state. We have awesome trade schools / engineering schools, when we "graduate" we are mentally prepared to move out of state becouse the whole time we are learning the fundamentals through the advanced we are brainwashed into thinking this state is no good. AND THIS STATE IS NOT. At least right now.
Look at any good union hall , plumbers, fitters, hvac, sheetmetal, electrical, or refrigeration. You have over half of the brothers on the bench. Now most of these guys are called back for a job or two, that Bull Crap aint gunna pay the bills, let alone give my family a chance to do what they want. So what are these laid off guys doing besides reaping elongated MARVIN unemployment bennies - reeducating themselves in the medical industry.
I did a furnace job for a guy last year who was a master plumber and actually well known for his work and also had some time 4 - 5 years in the navy for boilers, getting out of the trades for an ex ray tech degree at the community college. This guy told me, hey I have three kids, I make pennies after years of learning my craft, the conditions are horrid when I do work, and I am sick of tearing up my body.
Right now it is slow and what is moving is quickly picked up by a scavenger.
But I see this turning around in the next ten, at least up here, the question is who is going to fill the demand - uneducated greenies that have not had the chance to be molded by a master tradesman. THE FUTURE IS VERY FRIGHTENING. Most companies that are still hustling have employees with an average age of 55, those guys and gals are not going to be around in 10, and we need them to be or at least there apprentices to be!!
Like I said before, THE FUTURE IS GOING TO BE ONE GAMBLE

[Joe Harper]

Less qualified applicants today then during the boom.Not just this site, everywhere we try.


What's up,major lay off by many in 2007 and 08.Where are they now??

I think part of your issue is demographics. I can see the npr office getting a prospect every once in a while. But you have a lot of retired folks and surburbanites. Neither one is going to produce service technicians.

[KY-kid]

Whatever micro or macro factors you want to look at for finding good HVAC Techs - A undeniable fact is that acording to

BLS.GOV -

it is one of the fastest growing occupations in the USA and for that matter the world, and will indeed only grow faster in the coming years with newer technology , refrigerants , pushes to go green, etc...

it is rated to grow " MUCH FASTER THAN THE AVERAGE OCCUPATION "
at something like 30 % through 2018 . Faster than nursing- dentistry-finance-etc...


Time to hold on to good techs even in slow times - and even with my KY 8th grade schoolin that spells good , good , good.

[Joe Harper]

Ohh KY = Kentucky....ok...
I was hoping it did not mean something else you would buy in the "intimate section" of walmart...

[DesMech]

Ohh KY = Kentucky....ok...
I was hoping it did not mean something else you would buy in the "intimate section" of walmart...

:LOL:

[jmac055]

There are techs out there that are looking for jobs, but there is a catch. Most of these techs are green like me. Sure some of them want the easy way out but there are those like me that are willing to get down and dirty to become the best tech possible.

I know it cost allot to train new techs but if your wanting a better future for this industry then you better be willing to invest in it. Or yes this trade is in big trouble.

[gan]

In my ongoing search for a job I have seen techs that really didn't know how to troubleshoot thier way out of a paperbag but could talk really well, get jobs I was applying for because they knew somebody. Later on they are asking questions at the supplyhouse about superheat, controls etc. I guess I don't come across well from my resume or interviews, or I just don't know the right people. I find myself hanging out at the supply house giving tech support to these same guys.

There are decent techs outhere but as mentioned above companies rather not take a chance with a guy who has 5yrs or less experience.

[flange]

there is soo much to this. good techs usually are seasoned guys who have been there and done that. they may have been mistreated, hurt, retired, changed career path, or somply found a happy home....for now. you se seasoned guys are the last to go in tough times due to their ability, effectiveness, and also the ablity to be smart enough to do what is asked and keep their mouth shut. they hunker down and keep a paycheck when others cant. they are not currently looking to make a move, as known steady pay is better than leaping with no safety net. now is not the time.

[DaveCR]

there is soo much to this. good techs usually are seasoned guys who have been there and done that. they may have been mistreated, hurt, retired, changed career path, or somply found a happy home....for now. you se seasoned guys are the last to go in tough times due to their ability, effectiveness, and also the ablity to be smart enough to do what is asked and keep their mouth shut. they hunker down and keep a paycheck when others cant. they are not currently looking to make a move, as known steady pay is better than leaping with no safety net. now is not the time.

+1

[inzot80]

I'm sorry but if I had 5 yrs plus exp within a company why would I go elsewhere my job is secure if I go elsewhere thats taking a chance, better pay? doubt it If I make 32hr and new job offer 34 not worth it.

I have work for this oil company for 6 yrs starting rate was 12 hr end at 28.10 hr before layoff's took it toll....

Hey but im still L@@King for a job in MA,NH

[swamp]

It's called lack of intestinal fortitude. My generation, not me by any means, started it by letting kids be who they wanted to be...and that pretty much meant taking the easy way to most anything in life. They were allowed to live that life at home and taught to live that life when they walked out the door to attend school. And that is the short version.

On this board with most folks over 45 you have a mean, lean bunch of tough guys/gals who stick it out until the job/work is completed. There are certainly some exceptions to that rule however there are cases shown on here from time to time where a demanding attitude and entitled minded technicians are doing everything but taking responsibility for what they have done.

That's the way we were taught. Learn all you can, take your bumps in the road, do every job with pride and try to lean more than the next guy.

We cheated our kids out of that life by not ever letting them fall down so they could figure out how and that they could pick themselves up again.

Some rambling on of recent observations: Ask a lot of folks what the key to getting through the "recession", which it's not, and they will tell you they need to return back to school and get a masters, PHD or some such crap.

From what I see no ones talking about working their way out. They are waiting for their house value to go up or waiting for their easy well paying job to come back...or waiting for a federal job.

Washington State college administrator was on the news yesterday stating that in a few years the US will be in big trouble. Why you ask? According to him there are less and less folks getting BS & BA degrees so who is going to do the thinking, he states.

This is the crap that we have let take over this country. It's not about analytic thinking and self sufficiency anymore, and it hasn't been for quite a while. It's about looking good and having some kind of a degree...just look what's sitting in the White House.

We set this ship in motion years ago. Now we have to live with the port it ended up in.

I couldn't have said it better!:ditto:

[flange]

I needed to hire a seasoned tech last fall. I loooked around to see what was out there, and decided to pass on most. Gave two guys a chance who on papaer were great. then i found out within weeks why they were unemployed. coulndt self start, whiny, but probably decent mechanics, just needed constant direction. I dont have the time or energy for that. I want to give you your assignment and talk to you when you are done, unless there is a major concern. Third try was the charm. Found a guy who had only worked for three employers in thirty plus years, but just wasnt happy. I only knew about him from a call from the business agent, who knew I was looking for "the right guy" after i had gone through two others. I interviewed him on the phone, but knew all i needed to know prior to even speaking to him, you see, its a small business, and all i had to do was make a few calls to learn all i needed to know. he was technically hired prior to me even speaking with him. we just had to come to terms. He is a perfect dit for my company except one thing....he calls me every goddamn day to tell me what he did, "to keep me in the loop". I think a lot about his ability, but i want out of the loop, and have started telling him to stop calling me unless there is a problem. he gets it for a few days, then starts calling again. its kinda funy and annoying at once.

[gan]

I'm sorry but if I had 5 yrs plus exp within a company why would I go elsewhere my job is secure if I go elsewhere thats taking a chance, better pay? doubt it If I make 32hr and new job offer 34 not worth it.

I have work for this oil company for 6 yrs starting rate was 12 hr end at 28.10 hr before layoff's took it toll....

Hey but im still L@@King for a job in MA,NH

I know with me it wasn't my choice to be looking for work, I was making decent pay at the company I was with and for the most part I enjoyed what I did. I got hurt had to take personal time to get "fixed" and when I was ready to come back they eliminated my position so now I am looking. Apprently after they elimanted my spot they had enough in the budget that everybody got raises.

[secorp]

Dash,
In this market if you are worth a damn you kept your job and sure as hell not looking to move. even in good times good techs are not looking to move. thinking there are more good techs in bad times is flawed, I would think they are even more scarce.

Gan,
new guys are not allowed to get hurt, even old guys are cut after injury.
you need to lie on your app about work experience and get a job.

Flange,
Your new guy is really nervous he does not believe you yet. (that you will not fire him). Beat him to the punch once in a while with a 5 min call, telling him all is good and you will be busy for a few days, do not call unless you can not handle something. a guy who has only know three or four employers will always be nervous for about 9 months OR MORE.

[sw_lv2005]

Yea thats a nice one lie on your resume, you better know how to do some good bs-ing and better be able to back it up , because good techs will know bs from the start and proably the owner during the interview.

[supertek65]

i do not know about the owner or management, they are usually easy to fool!
but the guys will know quick!
if they really like you you might still be okay



Yea thats a nice one lie on your resume, you better know how to do some good bs-ing and better be able to back it up , because good techs will know bs from the start and proably the owner during the interview.

[Milk man]

Yea thats a nice one lie on your resume, you better know how to do some good bs-ing and better be able to back it up , because good techs will know bs from the start and proably the owner during the interview.

That's how it's done.

I've always been truthful in interviews and it's only served to hinder me. I know for a fact that the last time I looked for a new job some else got it. They "embellished" and got caught. Two months after the interview I get a call. Uh, are you still interested?

I'm happy where I'm at now. I'm treated well and well paid for my area and what I do. Not even interested in looking for greener grass.

[james80031]

i do not know about the owner or management, they are usually easy to fool!
but the guys will know quick!
if they really like you you might still be okay

Frankie,
Sounds like my new hire. 17 years installer....... B. S. Nobody seems to live up to their resume. I used to brag and lie a little.... mostly to get laid, but it is awful tough to fool me, and bs eperience.

[Milk man]

Frankie,
Sounds like my new hire. 17 years installer....... B. S. Nobody seems to live up to their resume. I used to brag and lie a little.... mostly to get laid, but it is awful tough to fool me, and bs eperience.

It's because you don't get the job when you are honest and some one else is BSing.

[Tool-Slinger]

Twilli says the answer is simple many techs have become owners and hence the shortage of techs and the over supply of owners.
Twilly is correct. Tool looked for a decent job for two years and only found peckerheads who would hire him for bad wages or conditions, so he sadly started his own business out of frustration and disappointment. 2+ years later, I still say they were peckerheads.

[Milk man]

Twilli says the answer is simple many techs have become owners and hence the shortage of techs and the over supply of owners.


I've brought a very similar point up a couple of times before. We, the ones that have decided not to start a business, are treated as second class by those that have. (Generally speaking, and not so generally on this board). So when I did find some respect I'm not leaving.

I had a boss tell once that he was only as good as the people working for him.

[swamp]

I have been in the trade since 1974 , The town I lived in ,Jax Fla. required service techs to go to a 4 year course. and at the conclusion you took a test that had 300 questions and a practical part as well where you had to solder, flare ect:

NOW , from what I'm seeing, they get people basically off the street and throw them in a truck with a "tech" for a month or so and then turn them loose!

The "service Manager" at the last place I worked before I started my own business came from Great Dane , where they manufacture Trailers. The Guy had noooooo A/c experience. They tried to push every one to sell,sell,sell !

[artdavila]

Why work for someone else who doesn't pay well or offer benefits? I get paid vacation, sick, personal time holidays, why leave? Sure I could MOVE to find more money but then I would be risking too much. Right now the boss is great, co workers are great so again why leave and get underpaid and then laid off in the winter?

[John Markl]

Bingo...

Not long ago I read an article regarding technical "snobbery" that pretty much summed it up. Blue collar vs white collar. Parents wanting there kids to be a doctor or lawyer, etc. "Trade school??!! That's for the 'remedial' children my boy! Your more intelligent than that..."

We've done it to ourselves. Our parents 'slaved' for a buck, we bust our arses to keep our homes and so we don't want our kids to do the same. We encourage them to go to university...get a nice high paying job...

When we come home what's our attitude? Are we *****in' and complaining about our day at work? Kids read into that. They are smart. So they say, "No way am I working the trades. Look at my dad!! He's always miserable."

I don't have any children to 'mentor' but I do have 4 nephews that all want to get into the trades. Our oldest is enrolled in electrical and is loving it. My B/L and I have encouraged them all from day one. Talked about our days working with a smile and had a good laugh when the day was lousy or the boss was an arse.

Once in a while we have these days where you bring your kid to work. For one or two days a year not much work gets done but the kids love it and get excited about the trade. Maybe all the do is carry your toolbag but to them that is a blast.

If we want the kids to get into the trades we have to sell them on it. It's easier to attract them with sugar than sh*t.

Great Post !! I can relate. My oldest son recently quit the "family business" to take a job at a call center selling Dish Network subscriptions....he said he's watched how hard I work and how much stress I have and to him it's not worth it.....

Then I look at our local high school. Years ago, the various building trades' classes built a new house and sold it every year....then they did away with the building trades programs because they had become dumping grounds for problem kids to keep them in school.

The shop areas were remodeled into computer labs....you know the drill....we're all gonna spend our lives in cubicles, staring at computers to make the world go round, right?

About 3 years ago, they finally started re-instituting trades classes. My youngest son is in the HVAC program.

We used to teach our kids that hard work was the road to success.............now their taught to simply exist by doing as little as possible....Twilli is right, most techs worth their salt have opened their own shops.....

[supertek65]

i somewhat agree
all the top guys here in kc either work in the union, work for trane , or are the #1 top guy where they work at a non union shop or do their own thing!!!!!!!!!!!!

honestly,
if you can make 125k a year working at a union shop with all your benes paid for? i do not see why you would take on the head ache of owning your own mess!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

if you were really good and could only make 50 a year? then i could see living on the edge and doing your own thing

a guy here in kc started his own deal about 6 or 7 years ago he now has 90 guys and i think or would guess that he is doing about 40 million dollars a year!!!!!!!!!!:cliff:



Great Post !! I can relate. My oldest son recently quit the "family business" to take a job at a call center selling Dish Network subscriptions....he said he's watched how hard I work and how much stress I have and to him it's not worth it.....

Then I look at our local high school. Years ago, the various building trades' classes built a new house and sold it every year....then they did away with the building trades programs because they had become dumping grounds for problem kids to keep them in school.

The shop areas were remodeled into computer labs....you know the drill....we're all gonna spend our lives in cubicles, staring at computers to make the world go round, right?

About 3 years ago, they finally started re-instituting trades classes. My youngest son is in the HVAC program.

We used to teach our kids that hard work was the road to success.............now their taught to simply exist by doing as little as possible....Twilli is right, most techs worth their salt have opened their own shops.....

[wolfstrike]

techs are finding other lines of work because HVAC companies are going over to sales based

[blitz]

there's always a hidden gem like me :D (well, I'd like to think so). new tech, got install and service experience, was on pager/on call rotation, interested in improving skills and ability, not bad diagnostic skills (thank you idiot lights) and willing to learn. interested in refridgeration or steamfitter apprenticeship (haven't got it yet), and actually paid out of pocket to go to trade school while being laid off, none of this gov funded retraining BS...I tried to get it but they won't give me any - I'm doing it atm, 2 more months. I'm in canada tho'...

I understand how it works (from the bottom, shut up and listen) and have paid some of the dues... I had to chase a steam leak under a church in 24x36 chase way on my belly w/ steam pipe near my belly... that was fun. I lug around tools and DHW tanks for my boss.

So on the positive notes, there's always someone who is genuinely interested in learning a trade.

[supertek65]

i agree
but you have to sell yourself!

nothing sells itself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



techs are finding other lines of work because HVAC companies are going over to sales based

[supertek65]

there's no D



there's always a hidden gem like me :D (well, I'd like to think so). new tech, got install and service experience, was on pager/on call rotation, interested in improving skills and ability, not bad diagnostic skills (thank you idiot lights) and willing to learn. interested in refridgeration or steamfitter apprenticeship (haven't got it yet), and actually paid out of pocket to go to trade school while being laid off, none of this gov funded retraining BS...I tried to get it but they won't give me any - I'm doing it atm, 2 more months. I'm in canada tho'...

I understand how it works (from the bottom, shut up and listen) and have paid some of the dues... I had to chase a steam leak under a church in 24x36 chase way on my belly w/ steam pipe near my belly... that was fun. I lug around tools and DHW tanks for my boss.

So on the positive notes, there's always someone who is genuinely interested in learning a trade.

[blitz]

there's no D

Yes, I am started to sell my self (sounds really wrong hahaha)h

it really shows I'm a greenhorn, eh? damn fridge... lol

[Joe Harper]

there is no d in retarderation work..

[supertek65]

if you were smart??????????????

you would have told me that is how they spell it in canada
like arse in australia!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you have to feel good about yourself and think you are smart to do this! and especially to get a job!!

good luck, hope you go far

frank




Yes, I am started to sell my self (sounds really wrong hahaha)h

it really shows I'm a greenhorn, eh? damn fridge... lol

[Tool-Slinger]

techs are finding other lines of work because HVAC companies are going over to sales based
It is a combination of things. Young guys would rather fiddle with stuff than work hard. There is no interest in joining this industry. Techs find a stable situation and they stick with it. Be it a job or a business.

The mark-up on labor is too high. I can pee away a full week worth of work for someone else for what I can make in a single day as an owner.

[Jettaknight]

techs are finding other lines of work because HVAC companies are going over to sales based

Funny you mentioned that...Its how I lost my last job.

Boss always thought service dept. was a liability.

Go ahead get rid of the techs and sell all you want...who will service it??

Somebody has to...thanks you very much...$$$

[Jettaknight]

there's always a hidden gem like me :D (well, I'd like to think so). new tech, got install and service experience, was on pager/on call rotation, interested in improving skills and ability, not bad diagnostic skills (thank you idiot lights) and willing to learn. interested in refridgeration or steamfitter apprenticeship (haven't got it yet), and actually paid out of pocket to go to trade school while being laid off, none of this gov funded retraining BS...I tried to get it but they won't give me any - I'm doing it atm, 2 more months. I'm in canada tho'...

I understand how it works (from the bottom, shut up and listen) and have paid some of the dues... I had to chase a steam leak under a church in 24x36 chase way on my belly w/ steam pipe near my belly... that was fun. I lug around tools and DHW tanks for my boss.

So on the positive notes, there's always someone who is genuinely interested in learning a trade.

Please tell me your name is NOT Serge Lavigne...

[blitz]

Please tell me your name is NOT Serge Lavigne...


no, my name is not serge lavigne. who's he anyway? avril's dad?

[Dan Marr]

I am taking it when you say you want military experience you dont want any hippies??? Do the units fix easier for the vets? Just wonderin.

/neither a hippie or a vet.

[artdavila]

I am taking it when you say you want military experience you dont want any hippies??? Do the units fix easier for the vets? Just wonderin.

/neither a hippie or a vet.

Just guessing here but he probably wants military due to the work ethic most vets have. Lets face the facts if a hippie can't cut his hair on a regular schedule, how can he show up to work?

[tim fox]

Are there even any hippies anymore? Kind of an outdated handle. Nare-do-well covers all bases? LOL

[pdrake65]

Just guessing here but he probably wants military due to the work ethic most vets have. Lets face the facts if a hippie can't cut his hair on a regular schedule, how can he show up to work?

What's a hippie? :D . I know guys with long hair that work circles around the crew- cuts. I don't see the connection. My last apprentise came from the Air Force HVAC school. He didn't even know how to use a service wrench!He didn't get much better...had to let him go.The problem is really that all the good techs got screwed so the bosses could make more money and the ones coming out of the school have no clue of what they are in for because they are not taught about the hard parts of the biz.

[artdavila]

What's a hippie? :D . I know guys with long hair that work circles around the crew- cuts. I don't see the connection. My last apprentise came from the Air Force HVAC school. He didn't even know how to use a service wrench!He didn't get much better...had to let him go.The problem is really that all the good techs got screwed so the bosses could make more money and the ones coming out of the school have no clue of what they are in for because they are not taught about the hard parts of the biz.

You can't expect much from an airdale (airforce), go Navy!

[yellowirenut]

You can't expect much from an airdale (airforce), go Navy!
HEY i represent that..err i mean resent that..

but there is truth there also....only about 20% could do there job well and made sure it was done right. The rest u could not fire..just give them simple jobs..hold this...count these..dont leave. (they would wonder off if you did not tell them to stay)

[supertek65]

i was in the army 3 years did not learn a damm thing about my mos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that being said! if you are hiring an apprentice?? He should not know anything and hopefully never learned anything wrong!!!!

that is why we have a training center. in my case one of the best in the nation!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

let him learn there!!

i would take a vet any day, he/she should be disciplined!!!!!!!!!!:troll:



HEY i represent that..err i mean resent that..

but there is truth there also....only about 20% could do there job well and made sure it was done right. The rest u could not fire..just give them simple jobs..hold this...count these..dont leave. (they would wonder off if you did not tell them to stay)

[flange]

There is always the issue of appearance. MANY clients in a commercial setting get a little uneasy when a service mechanic comes into an occupied building and doesnt look presentable. This means hair combed, clean shirt and jeans, clean hands, etc. There is nothing that says a hippie or whatever is a better or worse employee except customer perception, which in most cases is customer reality. they want their people to look a certain way or some employees get nervous, its a fact of life today. we work in buildings where they get upset of your truck is dirty. Its soo much more than wrench turning skills to many clients these days. I have one building where we do a lot of work, and have had the service agreement for five plus years. I send the same two guys there, one as lead, and a second as backup if the lead cannot make it. We have a company code to get into the building and all doors, BUT, they still get pissed off if the man isnt signed in and wearing a badge. This is in a building where everyone knowsthe guys by name, and the guys play practical jokes on some of the girls. its just a fact of life they want what they want.

[supertek65]

this is all very true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i personally am a short fat guy with long hair and am usually messy cus i work alot!!

somehow they still keep me:troll: around!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i wouldnt hire me!





There is always the issue of appearance. MANY clients in a commercial setting get a little uneasy when a service mechanic comes into an occupied building and doesnt look presentable. This means hair combed, clean shirt and jeans, clean hands, etc. There is nothing that says a hippie or whatever is a better or worse employee except customer perception, which in most cases is customer reality. they want their people to look a certain way or some employees get nervous, its a fact of life today. we work in buildings where they get upset of your truck is dirty. Its soo much more than wrench turning skills to many clients these days. I have one building where we do a lot of work, and have had the service agreement for five plus years. I send the same two guys there, one as lead, and a second as backup if the lead cannot make it. We have a company code to get into the building and all doors, BUT, they still get pissed off if the man isnt signed in and wearing a badge. This is in a building where everyone knowsthe guys by name, and the guys play practical jokes on some of the girls. its just a fact of life they want what they want.

[sw_lv2005]

What's a hippie? :D . I know guys with long hair that work circles around the crew- cuts. I don't see the connection. My last apprentise came from the Air Force HVAC school. He didn't even know how to use a service wrench!He didn't get much better...had to let him go.The problem is really that all the good techs got screwed so the bosses could make more money and the ones coming out of the school have no clue of what they are in for because they are not taught about the hard parts of the biz.

Well i can see a part to your story about not knowing somethings for 2 reasons the military schools are different for each service, Second he may not have been motiavted to learn while he was in. But still he was protecting this country so we can post stuff like this on the internet. I signed up for the navy i went to navy boiler school in great lakes IL then to navy AC/R school in norfolk va. I learned on alot on my ship, When it comes to ac you will not see a commercial package unit or a heatpump on a ship, You will see big refrigeration compressor and big chiller units, and small self contained units with saltwater condensers and refrigeration galley equipment. When i got out i had to learn the civilian side such as split systems and heatpumps and electrical/ but i adapted wasnt that hard, a guy showed me the ropes on the electrical Thats some of the downfalls of military schools. Army,airfoce, marines would see more civilian ac systems than navy squids do but we work on a whole bigger systems than they did. It really depends on which service you join.

[artdavila]

yeah its like comparing apples to oranges, different worlds. I was a shipboard firefighter, damage controllman to be technically correct. Firefighting on ship is totally differnt than structual fire.

[J_SIN]

that being said! if are hiring an apprentice?? He should not know anything and hopefully never learned anything wrong!!!!


that's how I got into HVAC, and I'm glad it worked out that way. Not only did it allow me to learn "the right way", meaning how this company wants things done, I didn't have to unlearn anything I had been taught somewhere else. I was also lucky enough to be brought it to train under a 30+ year tech/installer that doesn't half ass anything. I look at myself as a long term investment for the future of this company and do my best to give my boss the best return on his investment I possibly can, and wont be going anywhere else as long as this company is around.

[brian 245]

I am in a new spot in life. I am 45 yrs old and just graduated HVAC/R trade school. I got the EPA 608 universal MA oil burners and OSHA 10. I have soldered and brazed and made flare fittings before going into school and that helped. Learning to charge systems using superheat, wiring a new boiler, tuning oil systems and troubleshooting gas, oil and AC/refrigeration was a fun thing for me to learn. I am old enough to know I would starting at the bottom and that’s fine. I wouldn't moan about the dirty jobs, everyone starts there and that’s how I can learn more from a senior Tech.Can I say I know it all or can troubleshoot any system just because I graduated tech school, heck no. My problem is getting into the field when every job out there wants 3yrs or more on the job. How can I get them to see that 20yrs of manufacturing installing molds and equipment gives me some hands on time and shows my dependability for showing up to work.

[pdrake65]

Well i can see a part to your story about not knowing somethings for 2 reasons the military schools are different for each service, Second he may not have been motiavted to learn while he was in. But still he was protecting this country so we can post stuff like this on the internet. I signed up for the navy i went to navy boiler school in great lakes IL then to navy AC/R school in norfolk va. I learned on alot on my ship, When it comes to ac you will not see a commercial package unit or a heatpump on a ship, You will see big refrigeration compressor and big chiller units, and small self contained units with saltwater condensers and refrigeration galley equipment. When i got out i had to learn the civilian side such as split systems and heatpumps and electrical/ but i adapted wasnt that hard, a guy showed me the ropes on the electrical Thats some of the downfalls of military schools. Army,airfoce, marines would see more civilian ac systems than navy squids do but we work on a whole bigger systems than they did. It really depends on which service you join.

I was mearly trying to point out that just because someone is military does not mean he is any better on the job than a cilivian. I have nothing but admiration for them. My brother is retired Army, 20 years of service.I should also say that my old apprentice didn't know how to use a service wrench and didn't tell me. I found out after two ruined service valves I had to replace. In the long run ,we will have to embrace the techs coming out of the schools and give them a chance. I've just had bad luck with a couple...not all.

[artdavila]

pdrake65,
You know your not supposed to work with family right?

[pdrake65]

pdrake65,
You know your not supposed to work with family right?

I was referring to my old apprentice I posted earlier. I edited that. You coudn't pay me enough to work with my brother!:D

[artdavila]

Agreed i wouldn't my brothers either.....

[supertek65]

brian,

most bosses just want somebody dependable!!!!!!!!!!!!! honest, loyal and hard working

if you can just get that out you will get a job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:bsing:




I am in a new spot in life. I am 45 yrs old and just graduated HVAC/R trade school. I got the EPA 608 universal MA oil burners and OSHA 10. I have soldered and brazed and made flare fittings before going into school and that helped. Learning to charge systems using superheat, wiring a new boiler, tuning oil systems and troubleshooting gas, oil and AC/refrigeration was a fun thing for me to learn. I am old enough to know I would starting at the bottom and that’s fine. I wouldn't moan about the dirty jobs, everyone starts there and that’s how I can learn more from a senior Tech.Can I say I know it all or can troubleshoot any system just because I graduated tech school, heck no. My problem is getting into the field when every job out there wants 3yrs or more on the job. How can I get them to see that 20yrs of manufacturing installing molds and equipment gives me some hands on time and shows my dependability for showing up to work.

[pdrake65]

I am in a new spot in life. I am 45 yrs old and just graduated HVAC/R trade school. I got the EPA 608 universal MA oil burners and OSHA 10. I have soldered and brazed and made flare fittings before going into school and that helped. Learning to charge systems using superheat, wiring a new boiler, tuning oil systems and troubleshooting gas, oil and AC/refrigeration was a fun thing for me to learn. I am old enough to know I would starting at the bottom and that’s fine. I wouldn't moan about the dirty jobs, everyone starts there and that’s how I can learn more from a senior Tech.Can I say I know it all or can troubleshoot any system just because I graduated tech school, heck no. My problem is getting into the field when every job out there wants 3yrs or more on the job. How can I get them to see that 20yrs of manufacturing installing molds and equipment gives me some hands on time and shows my dependability for showing up to work.

Brian, if you fill out a profile and put some info about yourself maybe this will help you on this site. Good luck to you.

[brian 245]

Brian, if you fill out a profile and put some info about yourself maybe this will help you on this site. Good luck to you.
Thanks, that was I good idea. I updated my info. Hard work doesn't scare me and showing up on time every time is something I always do. I also have respect for the customer no matter how they treat me. I'll plug along and find something. Like my wife said maybe the customer would like to see a guy with a few gray hairs than some kid.

[dash]

Thanks, that was I good idea. I updated my info. Hard work doesn't scare me and showing up on time every time is something I always do. I also have respect for the customer no matter how they treat me. I'll plug along and find something. Like my wife said maybe the customer would like to see a guy with a few gray hairs than some kid.

Here's a tip,for when you are employeed.

I started in this industry at 16, still in high school,by 17 I was running some calls on my own.

I told the owner that customers say things like" You look like you should still be in school" which I was.

He said just look them in the eye and say "Well thank you very much" worked like a charm.

[artdavila]

Hey brian 245,
Some hire the young guns due to the fact they will accept lower wages. Perception is that seasoned applicants want more money cuz they got more bills...
Good luck though.

[CRETEJR]

I am in a new spot in life. I am 45 yrs old and just graduated HVAC/R trade school. I got the EPA 608 universal MA oil burners and OSHA 10. I have soldered and brazed and made flare fittings before going into school and that helped. Learning to charge systems using superheat, wiring a new boiler, tuning oil systems and troubleshooting gas, oil and AC/refrigeration was a fun thing for me to learn. I am old enough to know I would starting at the bottom and that’s fine. I wouldn't moan about the dirty jobs, everyone starts there and that’s how I can learn more from a senior Tech.Can I say I know it all or can troubleshoot any system just because I graduated tech school, heck no. My problem is getting into the field when every job out there wants 3yrs or more on the job. How can I get them to see that 20yrs of manufacturing installing molds and equipment gives me some hands on time and shows my dependability for showing up to work.
I've have exactly the same problem as your having. The BOCES I went to hasn't had a call for a placement in over 20 months. I'd had my last job for 21 years. It doesn't count for anything these days being loyal. Seems the more you bounce around-the easier guys get jobs-but ones like us, no one wants. Older and dependable. I was in the ready mix concrete industry as a dispatcher-also lab technician. I also had a construction background after getting out of the military. I've thrown in the towel on the job hunt. Started my own business-a LLC. While it's not HVAC-R, it's a stepping stone and I'll learn on the fly-the old fashion way. We'll see how it goes, but it's got to be better than being the paid neighborhood handyman/landscaper that I've been doing now for almost 2 years.

Good luck to you-keep plugging at it, someone will see the value in a reliable employee yet.

[farupnorth]

Hey brian 245,
Some hire the young guns due to the fact they will accept lower wages. Perception is that seasoned applicants want more money cuz they got more bills...
Good luck though.

I wish this was true in my area/ state. My 2 best are new to the trade, one just out of school and the other came over from appliance repair via A & P Mechanic, been in areas where they used their mechanical aptitude and are 30+. Most seasoned here have been retreads and the young guns think they are worth their weight in gold!
The larger companies have that one golden child that they pay well and protect as they should. The past 5 out of 6yrs I was that golden child, now I'm trying to build that service side for a commercial install company. I have learned to look to the Brian 245s : If they are willing to work with me for 90 days at a training wage: are willing to listen, willing to learn (on and off the clock) and to work. They will make it!

[pdrake65]

I wish this was true in my area/ state. My 2 best are new to the trade, one just out of school and the other came over from appliance repair via A & P Mechanic, been in areas where they used their mechanical aptitude and are 30+. Most seasoned here have been retreads and the young guns think they are worth their weight in gold!
The larger companies have that one golden child that they pay well and protect as they should. The past 5 out of 6yrs I was that golden child, now I'm trying to build that service side for a commercial install company. I have learned to look to the Brian 245s : If they are willing to work with me for 90 days at a training wage: are willing to listen, willing to learn (on and off the clock) and to work. They will make it!

Where abouts in AK are you at? My mom and aunts live in Kenai. Visiting at the end of June for a week.

[farupnorth]

Where abouts in AK are you at? My mom and aunts live in Kenai. Visiting at the end of June for a week.

Mat-Su valley: Wasilla, Palmer: AKA Palin Country!

Your fishing should be great down there in June. Remember the Kenai and Russian will be packed. My recommendation is the Kasilof River.

[brian 245]

I wish this was true in my area/ state. My 2 best are new to the trade, one just out of school and the other came over from appliance repair via A & P Mechanic, been in areas where they used their mechanical aptitude and are 30+. Most seasoned here have been retreads and the young guns think they are worth their weight in gold!
The larger companies have that one golden child that they pay well and protect as they should. The past 5 out of 6yrs I was that golden child, now I'm trying to build that service side for a commercial install company. I have learned to look to the Brian 245s : If they are willing to work with me for 90 days at a training wage: are willing to listen, willing to learn (on and off the clock) and to work. They will make it!

Man do I wish I could spend some time up in your area for some good fishing.
I would listen to an senior tech and take training wages while learning. And off the clock learning is good to, any knowledge gained is a plus for the new guy and will make the bosses days better as well.

[pdrake65]

Mat-Su valley: Wasilla, Palmer: AKA Palin Country!

Your fishing should be great down there in June. Remember the Kenai and Russian will be packed. My recommendation is the Kasilof River.

My Mom's back yard is the Kenai river. I always bring home about 20 to 30 lbs of salmon. Trying to talk her into a halibut trip this year. :D

[supertek65]

I loooooove salmon and halibut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1



My Mom's back yard is the Kenai river. I always bring home about 20 to 30 lbs of salmon. Trying to talk her into a halibut trip this year. :D

[timebuilder]

I loooooove salmon and halibut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Funny. I love Salmon, too.

My dad grew up with it in Canada, and I ate a ton of it when I was a kid bewcause my mom made it for him.

Great stuff.

[supertek65]

my brother was the head butcher at safeway in san fran i would help him at night and he would give me crab, shrimp, salmon and halibut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

will work for food!

[Tool-Slinger]

my brother was the head butcher at safeway in san fran i would help him at night and he would give me crab, shrimp, salmon and halibut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

will work for food!
will work for food!

See, if more techs had this attitude there would not be any problem. Most of these guys are like 16th century pirates. They demand loot and booty or they refuse to sail. Food is all you really need.

[supertek65]

lol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

how many guys really love this????????????????????

how many guys/gals would do this in a third world country for free???????

how many guys would teach for free????????????????????

how many guys/gals will go help a buddy that is stuck on a roof OFF the clock???????

inversely
how many guys are just here for the pay check??????????????????????:anyone:




will work for food!

See, if more techs had this attitude there would not be any problem. Most of these guys are like 16th century pirates. They demand loot and booty or they refuse to sail. Food is all you really need.

[papa_jo]

what Twilli said-- i had had it with owners and became one myself!!!!!!! still truckin'
I don't hire employees- I use sub's I have known in the business for yearsssssssss and send 'em a 1099 at the end of the year

[dash]

Twilli says the answer is simple many techs have become owners and hence the shortage of techs and the over supply of owners.

Interesting theory,but in our area the number of licensed contractors is done, not up. Though they may be unlicensed.

[secorp]

Hard times like these usually push a lot of guys to Craigs list.

[Marlin336]

I am in a new spot in life. I am 45 yrs old and just graduated HVAC/R trade school. I got the EPA 608 universal MA oil burners and OSHA 10. I have soldered and brazed and made flare fittings before going into school and that helped. Learning to charge systems using superheat, wiring a new boiler, tuning oil systems and troubleshooting gas, oil and AC/refrigeration was a fun thing for me to learn. I am old enough to know I would starting at the bottom and that’s fine. I wouldn't moan about the dirty jobs, everyone starts there and that’s how I can learn more from a senior Tech.Can I say I know it all or can troubleshoot any system just because I graduated tech school, heck no. My problem is getting into the field when every job out there wants 3yrs or more on the job. How can I get them to see that 20yrs of manufacturing installing molds and equipment gives me some hands on time and shows my dependability for showing up to work.

I share your sentiment. Transitioning careers at 37 years old, started off in the trades early on as a mason then worked for a global accounting/consulting firm as a technical manager(computer, AV, networking) for 11 years. Life has taken a few turns over the past few years and decided to head back to school, just completed level I and II HVAC certificates at my local community college. I foresee myself taking classes to continue my education either though community college or RSES far into the future. I understand I will start off at the bottom of the totem pole, and am more than happy to get my hands dirty.

The challenge I’m experiencing is getting employers to see the years of experience I have in customer service, professionalism, work ethic. The corporate culture provided me the opportunity to absorb the soft skills that can’t be easily taught.

I have a solid foundation to build on from the classes I’ve taken, still have plenty to learn and am eager to learn.

[dash]

I share your sentiment. Transitioning careers at 37 years old, started off in the trades early on as a mason then worked for a global accounting/consulting firm as a technical manager(computer, AV, networking) for 11 years. Life has taken a few turns over the past few years and decided to head back to school, just completed level I and II HVAC certificates at my local community college. I foresee myself taking classes to continue my education either though community college or RSES far into the future. I understand I will start off at the bottom of the totem pole, and am more than happy to get my hands dirty.

The challenge I’m experiencing is getting employers to see the years of experience I have in customer service, professionalism, work ethic. The corporate culture provided me the opportunity to absorb the soft skills that can’t be easily taught.

I have a solid foundation to build on from the classes I’ve taken, still have plenty to learn and am eager to learn.

Have you considered moving to Florida??

[artdavila]

What cost of living in Florida?

[410aScam]

Heard a rumor that honeywell will stop service work and just sell parts.

[secorp]

What cost of living in Florida?

4 or maybe 5.

[pdrake65]

4 or maybe 5.

Dollars a day?:D

[Tool-Slinger]

Dollars a day?:D
Pints of blood.

[pdrake65]

Pints of blood.

that's the cost up here!:lilhelp:

[yellowirenut]

how many guys are just here for the pay check??????????????????????:anyone:

U get payed to get search this site? hmm all this time i was doing it for free to better myself...I'm such a sucker

[pdrake65]

U get payed to get search this site? hmm all this time i was doing it for free to better myself...I'm such a sucker

You mean I'm not getting paid for this?!?:gah:

[supertek65]

htalk doesnt pay you??????????????:nopity:


U get payed to get search this site? hmm all this time i was doing it for free to better myself...I'm such a sucker

[tim fox]

Don't get me wrong, I love this trade but as a song once said, "Love don't pay the rent"

[RoBoTeq]

Twilli says the answer is simple many techs have become owners and hence the shortage of techs and the over supply of owners.
This and the fact that Florida got hit harder, earlier then other areas. Many of the techs in Florida relocated to where there was work.

[RoBoTeq]

Don't get me wrong, I love this trade but as a song once said, "Love don't pay the rent"
It used to. Then I got old and fat:nopity:

[Tool-Slinger]

Don't get me wrong, I love this trade but as a song once said, "Love don't pay the rent"
If you get a real job, it will not pay as much by the hour. But you get some stability in employment, bennies, and home by six.

Plus, you can make extra big bucks doing side-jobs if you need.

[dash]

What cost of living in Florida?

I'm sure you can find that on the net.

[RoBoTeq]

I thought this was the net. Isn't this the net?:bhave:

[dash]

So funny.

[RoBoTeq]

I prefer pro's that are more interested in assisting ,than attempting to be a comedian. We are not here to be funny.:playing:

[supertek65]

dont worry robo!
you are not funny!



I prefer pro's that are more interested in assisting ,than attempting to be a comedian. We are not here to be funny.:playing:

[RoBoTeq]

dont worry robo!
you are not funny!
Thank you, thank you very much.

[dash]

Seriously, if the 'funny guys" are done,is there a tech shortage or not?

Saw 5 companys advertising for help in our small county a few weeks back,seems like a shortage,here in Florida.

[Tool-Slinger]

Seriously, if the 'funny guys" are done,is there a tech shortage or not?

Saw 5 companys advertising for help in our small county a few weeks back,seems like a shortage,here in Florida.
Everybody needs a laugh. But this is not a new problem, I am sure it varies locally. In short form there are many contributing reasons for this: [keep in mind these are opinions based on conversation and long term observation, I have no links or statistics]

It is partly seasonal, this time of year. I doubt the HVAC guys were hit as hard with the unemployment issues as most everyone else. Techs, not installers.

Young guys are not entering the field, they would rather dick around with computers or something, preferably indoors. Enrollment is reportedly down.

Young guys not entering the field again. This is not an easy thing to learn, more complicated than it was 20 years ago. So you have to be pretty smart, willing to work hard, and work long hours,.... so why not find something that pays better if you can and you are such a dynamo.

Meat grinder contractors, working 16 hours a day is nuts, older guys with skills can get a maintenance position or something. Older guys have lots of different skills technically, and sales, and more so a transition is not all that hard to a 40 hour week thing. Even the phone or electric company, but I have seen guys go to auto sales, furniture sales, and a pizza palace manager. Lots of facilities maintenance positions. This may be getting aggravated by an aging work force in general.


As Twilly mentioned before, self employment, me included in that lot. Whole new list needed to elaborate on that one.

It may vary by locale and company, but as far as I can remember there was always a tech shortage. There is evidence suggesting it is probably getting worse, this is nothing new, you be the judge.

[supertek65]

i think there is a huge shortage!!

no joking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Seriously, if the 'funny guys" are done,is there a tech shortage or not?

Saw 5 companys advertising for help in our small county a few weeks back,seems like a shortage,here in Florida.

[RoBoTeq]

I'm not sure how many times or different ways the question needs to be answered, but there are enough ratinonal, unfunny reasons for their seeming to be a tech shortage been mentioned on this thread;


Layed off techs stretching out their unemployment benefits.
Techs gone into business for themselves.
Techs moved to geographical locations where there is work for them.
Techs are choosy about who they go to work for.
What more is needed to know? There are techs coming out of apprenticeship programs and even college programs every day. We get several newbies in the industry signing up for pro status right here every week.

Now can we have fun?

[Milk man]

I think if you hire quality people, treat them with respect, and pay them generously for what they know and do, you will not have a tech shortage. Your competition might.

[RoBoTeq]

I think if you hire quality people, treat them with respect, and pay them generously for what they know and do, you will not have a tech shortage. Your competition might.
Are you suggesting that the person looking for techs does not hire quality people, does not treat his employees with respect or pay them generously for what they know and do?

Better not let him hear you say that:whistle::bhave:

[Milk man]

Are you suggesting that the person looking for techs does not hire quality people, does not treat his employees with respect or pay them generously for what they know and do?

Better not let him hear you say that:whistle::bhave:


I'm not surgesting anything of the sort. I think it is good advice for everyone that employees others. This industry and all others.

[RoBoTeq]

I'm not surgesting anything of the sort. I think it is good advice for everyone that employees others. This industry and all others.
I agree. A hypothetical question for you; Should a worker have been providing more work then his pay before asking for a raise?

[Milk man]

I agree. A hypothetical question for you; Should a worker have been providing more work then his pay before asking for a raise?

The burden of proff to the value of a "worker" is on the "worker". And the level of value to the company shall be maintained after a raise.

Keeping in mind the market value of said worker

[RoBoTeq]

The burden of proff to the value of a "worker" is on the "worker". And the level of value to the company shall be maintained after a raise.

Keeping in mind the market value of said worker
Forget the legalese talk. Should a worker have been producing more then his or her worth prior to asking for a raise? I'm not saying that there is a right or wrong answer, just what is your opinion?

[Milk man]

Forget the legalese talk. Should a worker have been producing more then his or her worth prior to asking for a raise? I'm not saying that there is a right or wrong answer, just what is your opinion?


Okay, for you the answer is yes. For everyone else, please see above. ;)

It is not reasonable for an employer to pay a rate above what one should be earning in the hope this will spur better performance.

It is also not reasonable for an employee to work under rate for an extended amount of time.

Money isn't always the prime factor in gaining and retaining employees. Once an employee is secure and not worried about money, job satisfaction and respect are the prime factor. If the company has a reputation of the place to work there will be no tech shortage.

[artdavila]

Hey Robo,
I have always been taught to "earn" my raises! In the corporate culture i now work in the only way to 'advance' is to be willing to go 'above' your pay grade, increase your work load and hope a raise is in the budget! If you are confortable with your wage just keep working at the level you are at and accept the cost of living joke, er raise each year...

[RoBoTeq]

Okay, for you the answer is yes. For everyone else, please see above. ;)

It is not reasonable for an employer to pay a rate above what one should be earning in the hope this will spur better performance.

It is also not reasonable for an employee to work under rate for an extended amount of time.

Money isn't always the prime factor in gaining and retaining employees. Once an employee is secure and not worried about money, job satisfaction and respect are the prime factor. If the company has a reputation of the place to work there will be no tech shortage.
I hope you don't mind my copying this post to show my contractors as what a decent and loyal employee wants from them. Thanks.

[RoBoTeq]

Hey Robo,
I have always been taught to "earn" my raises! In the corporate culture i now work in the only way to 'advance' is to be willing to go 'above' your pay grade, increase your work load and hope a raise is in the budget! If you are confortable with your wage just keep working at the level you are at and accept the cost of living joke, er raise each year...
Another great atitude. I'll add this to milkduds post for my employer goal training.

I think the best advice I have ever heard on wanting to get ahead is to provide more then your worth. If you are looking to upgrade your position, start acting like you are already in the position you want and take on as much responsibility of that position as you can.

[supertek65]

i got a 2 dollar raise yesterday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


oh never mind




so did every other guy in my local!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Hey Robo,
I have always been taught to "earn" my raises! In the corporate culture i now work in the only way to 'advance' is to be willing to go 'above' your pay grade, increase your work load and hope a raise is in the budget! If you are confortable with your wage just keep working at the level you are at and accept the cost of living joke, er raise each year...

[RoBoTeq]

i got a 2 dollar raise yesterday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


oh never mind




so did every other guy in my local!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Does the fact that every other guy in your local got the same raise that you did in any way take away from your raise?

[marter]

Another great atitude. I'll add this to milkduds post for my employer goal training.

I think the best advice I have ever heard on wanting to get ahead is to provide more then your worth. If you are looking to upgrade your position, start acting like you are already in the position you want and take on as much responsibility of that position as you can.

But how long do you keep up the workload and no raise is given, or you do the extra work for so long once you stop because you've never received any incentive to continue people then think you "slacking off"

Sad but ive found the only way to get more money is to go elsewhere and find someone that is willing to do so.

[dash]

Distributers advice on tech shortage has been a joke in our area,on all fronts,numerous of them just don't get it. Heads up thier $%^*.

At the end of this year we'll have 26 co-workers with over ten years with the company,10 with over 20 years. Still it's difficult to get the needed techs,new hire says,4 techs he knows moved out of state for work,can't blame them as growth is slow here in Florida.

[RoBoTeq]

Well, this distributor rep has been saying from post one that many of the techs in Florida have moved to where the work is. So, maybe this distributor rep doesn't have his head up his $%^*. Maybe that's a Florida thing too.

My contractors benefit from my advice. How do I know? They tell me so. Not everything is going to work for everyone. That should not keep us from having a positive atitude and to keep on trying things until we hit on what works.

I see a lot of positive attitude from employee techs on this thread. That is the attitude that both employers and employees should be seeking.

[RoBoTeq]

But how long do you keep up the workload and no raise is given, or you do the extra work for so long once you stop because you've never received any incentive to continue people then think you "slacking off"

Sad but ive found the only way to get more money is to go elsewhere and find someone that is willing to do so.
Every employee needs to be worth more then he or she is paid. Otherwise, the company cannot function and grow. Most times it is a matter of employees who work smarter rather then those who work harder. A smarter working employee will benefit the company and should expect to be compensated when their regular work becomes more beneficial then their wages earned. Harder working employees sometimes can be the most costly if they are not working smart. Just because you are hard working does not mean you are adding additional income for the company.

In other words, your word must be considered beneficial to your employer, not just to you. If you feel that your work is producing more income then it's cost to the company, ask your employer how they feel about your perceived increase in production. They may be able to guide you in a direction that will cause you no more effort but produce more for the company.

[Milk man]

You can quote me RoBo. I've always spoke nothing but the truth.::DD:

This may be a good opertunity to plug Chris Reak's book Tech To Tech. A little dated, but is still good advice for techs and owners may appreciate it also.

Does anyone know what happened to Reak?

[RoBoTeq]

You can quote me RoBo. I've always spoke nothing but the truth.::DD:

This may be a good opertunity to plug Chris Reak's book Tech To Tech. A little dated, but is still good advice for techs and owners may appreciate it also.

Does anyone know what happened to Reak?
We don't agree on some things, but I consider you to be an honest spoken man. You believe in what you say, and stand up for what you believe. Even when I am on the opposite side of your belief, I still consider you to be honest in what you say.

I don't know Chris Reak or the book. I'll see what I can come up with.

[james122964]

I tend to believe the employer saying they can not find any techs is a easy way out, because its cheaper to force fewer tech into many hours of overtime than to provide van/bennies/taxes for more employees.

jim

[RoBoTeq]

I tend to believe the employer saying they can not find any techs is a easy way out, because its cheaper to force fewer tech into many hours of overtime than to provide van/bennies/taxes for more employees.

jim
Overtime is usually a boon for the employees and a bust for the employer. Overtime pay increases the cost of labor while the productivity of labor usually diminishes during overtime hours.

[james122964]

Overtime is usually a boon for the employees and a bust for the employer. Overtime pay increases the cost of labor while the productivity of labor usually diminishes during overtime hours.

I dont know about everybody else, but, if they pay me 1/2 again over my regular rate, it comes out way less than all the bennies and other cost.

but my company charges by the hour, maybe we are one of the few that do that.---

Its not a boon when its 20 hours a week, and the gov takes most of it.
Not everyone lives beyound thier means and needs/wants so much o/t.

Jim

[artdavila]

James you are right any overtime over 20 hours is usually not worth it, why work the extra hours just to give it uncle sam?

Good techs are out there, most are not given the chance due to 'not enough experiece'.
Others are content where they are at due to fear of change....

[RoBoTeq]

James you are right any overtime over 20 hours is usually not worth it, why work the extra hours just to give it uncle sam?

Good techs are out there, most are not given the chance due to 'not enough experiece'.
Others are content where they are at due to fear of change....
Hell, sales persons work those kinds of hours for commission:CU:

[artdavila]

Commision is different that OT. OT gets taxed at a higher rate the regular hours, the more OT you work uncle sam get a bigger 'cut'.

[John Markl]

I don't think there ARE any "real" service techs under 50 years old left.....today's so-called service techs just push boxes......"lady, this unit is shot, it ain't worth fixin"......

I hired a 30 year old "tech" and I sent him on five service calls......he completed one, and it was just a spring start-up.......condemned a compressor, when all it was was grossly overcharged because the TXV wasn't feeding.......condemned a condenser fan motor when all was wrong was the dual run cap.......

The picture is clear......but the guy can sell the snot out of new equipment....which is great for the bottom line, but hard on the soul.

[RoBoTeq]

Commision is different that OT. OT gets taxed at a higher rate the regular hours, the more OT you work uncle sam get a bigger 'cut'.
Not really true. You are on a tax rate based on your annual income. When you have a larger weekly income due to OT, your income is taxed based on your normal annual rate, which means that a higher amount then is normal is being taken from your check. However, what this does is increases your annual tax collection and reduces your tax liability at the end of the year. It's a good thing.

[RoBoTeq]

I don't think there ARE any "real" service techs under 50 years old left.....today's so-called service techs just push boxes......"lady, this unit is shot, it ain't worth fixin"......

I hired a 30 year old "tech" and I sent him on five service calls......he completed one, and it was just a spring start-up.......condemned a compressor, when all it was was grossly overcharged because the TXV wasn't feeding.......condemned a condenser fan motor when all was wrong was the dual run cap.......

The picture is clear......but the guy can sell the snot out of new equipment....which is great for the bottom line, but hard on the soul.
I strongly disagree. Having taught many technical classes as well as having taught 3rd year apprenticeship course for ACCA/ABC, I have to say that there are more better trained techs coming into our industry then ever.

A bigger problem is company owners who do not want to change their old ways of doing things and do them the correct way that young techs have been taught.

[Milk man]

I thought one's income tax was figured at the end of the year. Are you sure OT is taxed at a different rate? If so, I think it shakes out at the end of the year on the 1040.

I've worked OT willingly for over 15 years. My employer was there in February when I needed him, I'm here now for him.

I don't know if I've ever been a victim of "bracket slide" when the taxes at the end of the year are paid, but have never really worried about it.

[John Markl]

A bigger problem is company owners who do not want to change their old ways of doing things and do them the correct way that young techs have been taught.

Please share? What is the "correct" way that these young techs have been taught?

[DeltaT]

the IRS tax code is based on taxing levels. The less you make the lower tax bracket you are in which is typically about 22% but not always because there are a ton of situations that can lower or raise that percentage amount.

And the highest simple tax bracket is around 35% also depending on your individual circumstances. The IRS does not know or care how the money is received, only that it is received and therefore taxable at some rate based on your individual circumstances.

Since most everyone has individual circumstances, it's imposible to know exactly what your tax rate will be unless all of the determining factors are known plus what exactly the tax code will be at the time of taxing.

[RoBoTeq]

I thought one's income tax was figured at the end of the year. Are you sure OT is taxed at a different rate? If so, I think it shakes out at the end of the year on the 1040.

I've worked OT willingly for over 15 years. My employer was there in February when I needed him, I'm here now for him.

I don't know if I've ever been a victim of "bracket slide" when the taxes at the end of the year are paid, but have never really worried about it.
You are correct, it all shakes out at the end of the year. OT always provides a nice tax buffer. What most people don't consider is that when taxes are taken from your pay, that money is still yours. It goes into an account to go against your tax liability at the end of the year. If you have enough in your tax account to pay your tax liability, you get any additional back in a refund. If you don't have enough in your tax account, you have to pay the difference as a lump sum.

[RoBoTeq]

Please share? What is the "correct" way that these young techs have been taught?
There are way too many bad practices that are done by "old timers" that newbies are taught to do correctly. Proper evacuations, nitrogen purges when brazing, obtaining both superheat and subcooling to determine proper system operations....etc.....etc....etc....

[pdrake65]

I don't think there ARE any "real" service techs under 50 years old left.....today's so-called service techs just push boxes......"lady, this unit is shot, it ain't worth fixin"......

I hired a 30 year old "tech" and I sent him on five service calls......he completed one, and it was just a spring start-up.......condemned a compressor, when all it was was grossly overcharged because the TXV wasn't feeding.......condemned a condenser fan motor when all was wrong was the dual run cap.......

The picture is clear......but the guy can sell the snot out of new equipment....which is great for the bottom line, but hard on the soul.

I'm not sure if I should be insulted on that remark!:gah:

[John Markl]

There are way too many bad practices that are done by "old timers" that newbies are taught to do correctly. Proper evacuations, nitrogen purges when brazing, obtaining both superheat and subcooling to determine proper system operations....etc.....etc....etc....

That all sounds great, but can they correctly diagnose and complete a repair? If so, send them over :)

[james122964]

I do not see them dragging thier commission up and down ladders all day, over stuff, under stuff.

If you work 20 hr of ot every week, there is no shake out at the end of the year.

I think that people do need to give new techs a chance, and answer the darn phone when they call for help.

Every darn one of us was new once. I do not think the text book stuff is what is hard on new techs, it the butched up sh** that they have to deal with from owner opperators that have a guy that did 10 hour course and got his EPA card.

I think most dont take the less experienced because they want some else to have paid for the hands on needed to really know whats going on.

Jim

[jumpit]

I strongly disagree. Having taught many technical classes as well as having taught 3rd year apprenticeship course for ACCA/ABC, I have to say that there are more better trained techs coming into our industry then ever.

A bigger problem is company owners who do not want to change their old ways of doing things and do them the correct way that young techs have been taught.

Amen!!!!!!!!

[John Markl]

The real world is nothing like the lab at the tech school.....I am on the advisory board at our local community college's HVAC program. For years I have begged them to teach reality....to no avail.

Instead of units in a row on a wall, how about in closets? or simulated attics with trip wires that go off it you "put your foot thru" ?

I am tired of hiring guys out of that program that have anywhere from 4-7 classes under their belt, that can't figure out how to get a fan blade off a condenser fan motor.

My other favorite, is the guys who come out after 4 courses with an "Installers Certificate" that couldn't hang and air handler and run a condensate drain to code if their life depended on it.

Sheesh

[John Markl]

I think most dont take the less experienced because they want some else to have paid for the hands on needed to really know whats going on.

Jim

Seems that most of the guys I hire from the local tech school don't want to do anything except ride around with me and watch me work.....ask them to do something and they stand there and look stupid.......

But they sure talk a good game at interview.......and "butchered up sh!#" is the real world.....they need to grow up and get used to it.

[RoBoTeq]

That all sounds great, but can they correctly diagnose and complete a repair? If so, send them over :)
Many of the newbies I deal with are pretty darned good at diagnosing as per trained methods. I only get involved when they run into the goofy things we often see that are not in the books.

[RoBoTeq]

Seems that most of the guys I hire from the local tech school don't want to do anything except ride around with me and watch me work.....ask them to do something and they stand there and look stupid.......

But they sure talk a good game at interview.......and "butchered up sh!#" is the real world.....they need to grow up and get used to it.
I don't know John. You are sounding an awful lot like a grumpy old man. You need a hug?:ghug:

[Joe Harper]

Not all of us under 50 suck....

[artdavila]

Hey John,
Sounds like you need a better interview process to weed these guys out. Give them a hard troubleshooting scenario to see if they really know whats going on, plus put them on a probationary period, if they do not cut it show them the door. If they are not willing to do the work send them on their way.
Sounds tough? Ask some off track questions to avoid the canned answer....

[RoBoTeq]

Hey John,
Sounds like you need a better interview process to weed these guys out. Give them a hard troubleshooting scenario to see if they really know whats going on, plus put them on a probationary period, if they do not cut it show them the door. If they are not willing to do the work send them on their way.
Sounds tough? Ask some off track questions to avoid the canned answer....
Good ideas here. Also, have the newbie ride with your most innovative tech for a week to show the newbie how to think outside of the tech book pages when need be. Get that newbie to a reality class with an out of the box tech support person from the company that manufactures the brand of equipment you use or from your distributor.

Some of the newbies are so full of text book information that they do have difficulty thinking outside the box in real world situations. That will depend on the quality of their teachers. You, as a contractor, need to work through that text book to reality training as soon as is possible.

[John Markl]

I don't know John. You are sounding an awful lot like a grumpy old man. You need a hug?:ghug:

nah, not grumpy, just in touch with reality......I actually have two pretty decent techs now that can really sell.....but what I see (and have seen) in our trade for the last decade, is that diagnosis and repair is becoming a lost art in the residential HVAC field.....it's SELL, SELL, SELL........the "techs" don't want to do much beyond run caps, motors, and contactors.....otherwise, sell them a new system and let the installers put it in.

Right now I have the best and largest crew I have ever had, and I am still personally buried in "real" repair work.....

[John Markl]

Good ideas here. Also, have the newbie ride with your most innovative tech for a week to show the newbie how to think outside of the tech book pages when need be. Get that newbie to a reality class with an out of the box tech support person from the company that manufactures the brand of equipment you use or from your distributor.

Some of the newbies are so full of text book information that they do have difficulty thinking outside the box in real world situations. That will depend on the quality of their teachers. You, as a contractor, need to work through that text book to reality training as soon as is possible.

Heck, I can handle the weird stuff.....I'd just like to see some guys come out of the tech schools that can diagnose and replace a condenser fan motor in less than 2 hours (and that's with the motor already on the service truck) ;)

[artdavila]

At what point do you draw the line?
A what point is a repair vs new equipement good?

[RoBoTeq]

At what point do you draw the line?
A what point is a repair vs new equipement good?
With the cost of repairs being so high due mostly to government regulations and the cost of replacement being made more attractive by government incentives, that line is a lot closer to the warranty period of the parts.

[pdrake65]

Seems that most of the guys I hire from the local tech school don't want to do anything except ride around with me and watch me work.....ask them to do something and they stand there and look stupid.......

But they sure talk a good game at interview.......and "butchered up sh!#" is the real world.....they need to grow up and get used to it.

You need to TEACH them.... not let them hang around. Nobody in any trade or profession comes out of school "job ready".

[tipsrfine]

That all sounds great, but can they correctly diagnose and complete a repair? If so, send them over :)

You seem smart. I've been to the same resi split fixed oriface ac system several times over the last few years. My superheat readings are all over the place, sometimes I have 22 & other times I only have 1 or 2 degrees superheat. I know no-one else has worked this unit. Any ideas?

[RoBoTeq]

You seem smart. I've been to the same resi split fixed oriface ac system several times over the last few years. My superheat readings are all over the place, sometimes I have 22 & other times I only have 1 or 2 degrees superheat. I know no-one else has worked this unit. Any ideas?
Are you giving the system time to settle out between adjustments? A minimum of 15 minutes, I usually go 20, is needed for the system to equalize in refrigerant pressures.

[tipsrfine]

Are you giving the system time to settle out between adjustments? A minimum of 15 minutes, I usually go 20, is needed for the system to equalize in refrigerant pressures.

The question was pretty much for John. No refrigerant was ever added or removed between these widely different superheat readings.

[pdrake65]

The question was pretty much for John. No refrigerant was ever added or removed between these widely different superheat readings.

A test!:D

[RoBoTeq]

The question was pretty much for John. No refrigerant was ever added or removed between these widely different superheat readings.
WHAT?! You don't trust the rest of us? Question still remains; was there at least 15 minutes of run time for the system each and every time the superheat measurement was taken? Is the indoor blower a variable speed?

[John Markl]

WHAT?! You don't trust the rest of us? Question still remains; was there at least 15 minutes of run time for the system each and every time the superheat measurement was taken? Is the indoor blower a variable speed?

I am leaning toward shifts in coil loading...(which would include a VS blower, as RBT has suggested)....although as I stated on another thread, I have seen piston/orifice units "hunt" like a TXV over the years too.....a real head scratcher.

Just from the info given, I am thinking some kind of load changes on the indoor coil. Keep in mind, that (theoretically) with a fixed orifice, the suction pressure depends mostly on head pressure, but coil loading would change the superheat, as opposed to a TXV which (theoretically) maintains a constant superheat, with less regard for pressures.

[pdrake65]

The question was pretty much for John. No refrigerant was ever added or removed between these widely different superheat readings.

Not cool to leave John hanging like that. If you have a point...make it. At least give all of the variables to make a proper diagnoses.

[ascj]

Being on 32 years old.....I would say it a bad thermostat?:eek2:

Or needs more freon.

[Tool-Slinger]

Not cool to leave John hanging like that. If you have a point...make it. At least give all of the variables to make a proper diagnoses.
I got it. Mother in jaw keeps threatening to leave. Each time she puts her suitcase in front of the return air.

[tipsrfine]

I am leaning toward shifts in coil loading...(which would include a VS blower, as RBT has suggested)....although as I stated on another thread, I have seen piston/orifice units "hunt" like a TXV over the years too.....a real head scratcher.

Just from the info given, I am thinking some kind of load changes on the indoor coil. Keep in mind, that (theoretically) with a fixed orifice, the suction pressure depends mostly on head pressure, but coil loading would change the superheat, as opposed to a TXV which (theoretically) maintains a constant superheat, with less regard for pressures.

Good answer. I asked mostly because you're an employer that had some complaints about your employees knowledge base AND I had just come off a conversation with my boss about this same subject which he just doesn't get. He's old & still approaches this situation kinda "caveman" fashion.

I guess my point is that sometimes the tech has to deal with a boss that doesn't have the training. Sorry about the subterfuge.

He just couldn't grasp that such a system will have different superheat readings & even td over evap depending on outside ambient & inside wet-bulb readings.

[james122964]

You seem smart. I've been to the same resi split fixed oriface ac system several times over the last few years. My superheat readings are all over the place, sometimes I have 22 & other times I only have 1 or 2 degrees superheat. I know no-one else has worked this unit. Any ideas?

If its a unit that does not use a TXV then the superheats will vary with the head pressure, higher head more refrigerant forced through, lower head pressure less refrigerant.

If it has a TXV, it may be sticking causing it to hunt serverely.

Also, if no expansion valve, different humidity levels, are some immediate thaughts.

Varing life left in the air filter.


Jim

[John Markl]

I can dish it, and I can take it too :D

That being said, I don't get irritated with guys who have a hard time with the more difficult stuff.....I DO get my knickers in a knot with guys who just throw up their hands and holler "help?" without applying themselves first.

I also have frustration with tech schools that spend time training with computer simulators and other such toys, instead of teaching real-world work skills.....like "how much drop should a condensate line have"? or how to remove a propeller from a condenser fan motor, or how to "pump down" a residential system, or......well, I think you get the point ;)

But, even that is a two-way street. One of my most recent failed tech school hires, would come to work in the morning all po'd at the instructor at school, because of what he was asking the students to do that given night....."he's stupid"...."okay, why?".....he wanted us to do blah, blah, blah......well, fella, what he was trying to teach you was ......

A former tech school teacher, who is a dear friend of mine, recently retired.....at his retirement spread, he lamented "I used to think I could teach ANYBODY.....but, not any more".....

[tipsrfine]

I can dish it, and I can take it too :D

That being said, I don't get irritated with guys who have a hard time with the more difficult stuff.....I DO get my knickers in a knot with guys who just throw up their hands and holler "help?" without applying themselves first.

I also have frustration with tech schools that spend time training with computer simulators and other such toys, instead of teaching real-world work skills.....like "how much drop should a condensate line have"? or how to remove a propeller from a condenser fan motor, or how to "pump down" a residential system, or......well, I think you get the point ;)

But, even that is a two-way street. One of my most recent failed tech school hires, would come to work in the morning all po'd at the instructor at school, because of what he was asking the students to do that given night....."he's stupid"...."okay, why?".....he wanted us to do blah, blah, blah......well, fella, what he was trying to teach you was ......

A former tech school teacher, who is a dear friend of mine, recently retired.....at his retirement spread, he lamented "I used to think I could teach ANYBODY.....but, not any more".....

I spent 20k on my 2 year degree. I'm quite sure that money would have been better spent having an experienced employer use it to train me; assuming the employer was honest. I could have learned what they taught me in those 2 years just by reading the books they charged me for, and it would have only taken me a month to have read them.

Honestly, if you were offered 20k to train an employee, do you not believe that employee would come out so much more ready to work in the field? Picture your employee after your 20k training compared to a trade schools 20k training, and how much would you bet your trainee would kick the hell out of the trade schools trainee.

[timebuilder]

I spent 20k on my 2 year degree. I'm quite sure that money would have been better spent having an experienced employer use it to train me; assuming the employer was honest. I could have learned what they taught me in those 2 years just by reading the books they charged me for, and it would have only taken me a month to have read them.

Honestly, if you were offered 20k to train an employee, do you not believe that employee would come out so much more ready to work in the field? Picture your employee after your 20k training compared to a trade schools 20k training, and how much would you bet your trainee would kick the hell out of the trade schools trainee.

If the trainee has no economic value hinging on his success, and no idea what is to come in the job (only some vague idea about working on stuff that "makes cold") there could be a revolving door of trainees that the employer would have to deal with.

The problem is our current society, and its beliefs about work and responsibility.

Read Robert Bork's Slouching Towards Gomorrah.

http://www.amazon.com/Slouching-Towards-Gomorrah-Liberalism-American/dp/0060987197

.

[Milk man]

I spent 20k on my 2 year degree. I'm quite sure that money would have been better spent having an experienced employer use it to train me; assuming the employer was honest. I could have learned what they taught me in those 2 years just by reading the books they charged me for, and it would have only taken me a month to have read them.

Honestly, if you were offered 20k to train an employee, do you not believe that employee would come out so much more ready to work in the field? Picture your employee after your 20k training compared to a trade schools 20k training, and how much would you bet your trainee would kick the hell out of the trade schools trainee.

I disagree. I'm a far superior tech because of my time spent in tech school. Far superior. I've always thought that one learns more in college than they can quantify. I'm talking about things not related to their field. Things like problem solving. Working with others. Dealing with bad situations.

It takes a good mix of class room experience and field experience. A problem I see is the attitude of I've always done it this way so it must be correct.

[RoBoTeq]

It takes a good mix of class room experience and field experience. A problem I see is the attitude of I've always done it this way so it must be correct.
Yeppers. Not much more to say.

[secorp]

20 GRRRRRR for Hvac 2 year course. Holy rip off batman.

[pdrake65]

I disagree. I'm a far superior tech because of my time spent in tech school. Far superior. I've always thought that one learns more in college than they can quantify. I'm talking about things not related to their field. Things like problem solving. Working with others. Dealing with bad situations.

It takes a good mix of class room experience and field experience. A problem I see is the attitude of I've always done it this way so it must be correct.

All that means is that you paid attention and learned. I did as well. How to deal with customers was a major plus for me. Not everyone takes from the class what you or I have.

[Joe Harper]

a week at minium wage is 280. multiply that by a year (52) is $14650.
Average starting salary im guessing is 15/hr or 600wk. Add in 15 weeks at 10 hrs overtime comes to a total of $37500 for the year. That is a $22850 increase. 20k for school looks like a good deal on paper...

[Tool-Slinger]

20 GRRRRRR for Hvac 2 year course. Holy rip off batman.
2 year vo-tech, couple hundred bucks.

2 trimesters trade school, couple of thousand bucks.

Class A contractor license, couple hundred bucks.

Look on face of 20k school guy: Priceless.

[secorp]

Non union and Union trade schools are free as long as you adhere to the rules and keep your grades up.


20K should come with a state license and a Nate cert.


PS. I do not trust NATE they are just in for the cash.

[John Markl]

I spent 20k on my 2 year degree. I'm quite sure that money would have been better spent having an experienced employer use it to train me; assuming the employer was honest. I could have learned what they taught me in those 2 years just by reading the books they charged me for, and it would have only taken me a month to have read them.

Honestly, if you were offered 20k to train an employee, do you not believe that employee would come out so much more ready to work in the field? Picture your employee after your 20k training compared to a trade schools 20k training, and how much would you bet your trainee would kick the hell out of the trade schools trainee.

You wouldn't even have to pay me........I'd love to get an intern or two....that I could train then put on full time........problem is, the guys you get out of trade schools are "reverse interns"........they want to get paid to watch........my daughter is an intern in a radiology program....does enemas half a day, every day, for FREE.....no pay.........THAT is an "intern" by definition....

[pringlel]

I have seen some good apprentices and bad ones over 20 years. A few thing that amazes me that usually isnt done, when recruiting from a tech school or union apprenticeship.
1 I would ask to speak with the training director ask for his help. You are looking for someone who is top in there class and would like to see there transcript. Ask if its ok to talk to there teachers. I know its a pain and time consuming but the apprentice /young tech is a huge investment for most companies.
2 Interview Most of the big companies i have worked for don't even interview they take what is sent to them, this has always frustrated me.During the interview have a few or at least one of your seasoned techs sit in on the interview.
3. Have some or at least one of your technical mechanics/ techs see if they would like to be a mentor / try to set up a type of mentor program in house.
I give my apprentices homework. This shows me if they are serious about learning or just playing the game. try to reward the mentoring mechanic If nothing more than telling him that you greatly appreciate his efforts.
A mechanic that is willing to share his knowledge freely is priceless.
Me on the other hand if the apprentice is disrespectful , pretending to be interested, unwilling to go the extra mile on his own to learn. Then frankly i wont waste my time spoon feeding him.
4 Make it clear there personal phones are to be kept in there vehicles while working , no texting on the phone with there Girlfriend for half the day.
5. If a smoker ( can you even ask?) Smoke during breaks and lunch. Kinda hard core but i am not a smoker .
6 Honesty Be sure to tell them right up front how important this attribute is in this trade.

Well my friends just some food for thought hopefully i didnt get to far off subject :)

[pringlel]

I have seen some good apprentices and bad ones over 20 years. A few thing that amazes me that usually isnt done, when recruiting from a tech school or union apprenticeship.
1 I would ask to speak with the training director ask for his help. You are looking a someone who is top in there class and would like to see there transcript. Ask if its ok to talk to there teachers. I know its a pain and time consuming but the apprentice /young tech is a huge investment for most companies.
2 Interview Most of the big companies i have worked for don't even interview they take what is sent to them, this has always frustrated me.During the interview have a few or at least one of your seasoned techs sit in on the interview.
3. Have some or at least one of your technical mechanics/ techs see if they would like to be a mentor / try to set up a type of mentor program in house.
I give my apprentices homework. This shows me if they are serious about learning or just playing the game. try to reward the mentoring mechanic If nothing more than telling him that you greatly appreciate his efforts.
A mechanic that is willing to share his knowledge freely is priceless.
Me on the other hand if the apprentice is disrespectful , pretending to be interested, unwilling to go the extra mile on his own to learn. Then frankly i wont waste my time spoon feeding him.
4 Make it clear there personal phones are to be kept in there vehicles while working , no texting on the phone with there Girlfriend for half the day.
5. If a smoker ( can you even ask?) Smoke during breaks and lunch. Kinda hard core but i am not a smoker .
6 Honesty Be sure to tell them right up front how important this attribute is in this trade.

Well my friends just some food for thought hopefully i didnt get to far off subject :)

[pdrake65]

4 Make it clear there personal phones are to be kept in there vehicles while working , no texting on the phone with there Girlfriend for half the day.

A MAJOR issue with the younger crowd is that damn texting all day long!
Good point to make.

[John Markl]

A MAJOR issue with the younger crowd is that damn texting all day long!
Good point to make.

And, they take it as a birth right.....

[VTP99]

A MAJOR issue with the younger crowd is that damn texting all day long!
Good point to make.

My thumbs are to big therefore i can't text. :eek2:
Also i don't make the age requirement.:eek2:

[timebuilder]

A MAJOR issue with the younger crowd is that damn texting all day long!
Good point to make.


I think it amounts to a social disorder.

There is an entire generation that has never spent time alone in a vehicle or on a roof and had no way to communicate with ANYONE.

Silence.

Thinking.

Introspection.

Concentration.

All of these concepts are foreign to someone who was born after 1987.

This is a part of the problem we face in our industry: the difference between what someone expects as an individual, and what work demands as an employee.

[John Markl]

I think it amounts to a social disorder.

There is an entire generation that has never spent time alone in a vehicle or on a roof and had no way to communicate with ANYONE.

Silence.

Thinking.

Introspection.

Concentration.

All of these concepts are foreign to someone who was born after 1987.

This is a part of the problem we face in our industry: the difference between what someone expects as an individual, and what work demands as an employee.

Amen !!:ditto:

[timebuilder]

Amen !!:ditto:

I never had any doubt that John and I have far more in common than those issues on which we have differences.

:putergreet:

[bob hubbard]

You cant keep anyones interest when the starting pay is the same as washing cars or driving a delivery truck .... The working conditions are in most cases less than average with sub standard pay .. :pop:

[Tool-Slinger]

You cant keep anyones interest when the starting pay is the same as washing cars or driving a delivery truck .... The working conditions are in most cases less than average with sub standard pay .. :pop:
There is always an expectation of pay increases. They have to earn it, they know it.

[pdrake65]

I think it amounts to a social disorder.

There is an entire generation that has never spent time alone in a vehicle or on a roof and had no way to communicate with ANYONE.

Silence.

Thinking.

Introspection.

Concentration.

All of these concepts are foreign to someone who was born after 1987.

This is a part of the problem we face in our industry: the difference between what someone expects as an individual, and what work demands as an employee.

I miss the days of no cell phone going off every two minutes...Being up on a roof was a peaceful feeling for sure.

[crackertech]

:ditto:

[yellowirenut]

ive never experienced those days...i am sure 10 yrs from now we will be saying "remember when it was just a phone ringing, none of this display on your eye"
Ive told the girls i date...u may text me at work but it may be hours before i can respond. The phone stays in the truck, unless i am taking pics for the boss or wall of shame.

[John Markl]

I miss the days of no cell phone going off every two minutes...Being up on a roof was a peaceful feeling for sure.

You could actually focus on the task at hand.....if you're the boss, you could work without someone calling you to bail them out....if you're the tech/installer, you had to learn to figure things out without somebody always holding your hand (or something else).....

[RoBoTeq]

I sleep with my bluetooth ear piece.

[DeltaT]

Geeze....I remember the days you had to spend time dragging a extension cord across the roof if you wanted to drill a hole.

And, especially when there was no such thing as a tech support hot line...the tech was expected to figure out things for himself and know systems inside and out.

[AirTechMech]

You cant keep anyones interest when the starting pay is the same as washing cars or driving a delivery truck .... The working conditions are in most cases less than average with sub standard pay .. :pop:

When I started in this trade as an apprentice I was paid $5.50 /hr and I was happy to be there learning as much as I could from the seasoned guys, I wont tell you how many years back that was but never the less I knew I wanted to be there and I also knew the more I learned the better I was, with that comes reward in many ways, not just pay.

[DeltaT]

When I started in this trade as an apprentice I was paid $5.50 /hr and I was happy to be there learning as much as I could from the seasoned guys, I wont tell you how many years back that was but never the less I knew I wanted to be there and I also knew the more I learned the better I was, with that comes reward in many ways, not just pay.

Geeze...when I started as a refrigeration apprentice I was paid 97 cents or 87 cents and hour. R22 wasn't out yet, that I remember and R12 was fairly new and came in steel refrigeration bottles. Oh yea, and a service call in DC for refrigeration was $8.50 per hour.

[bob hubbard]

I went thru an adult nite class at a local school .... Cost me 4500 .... We were told we could make 15-25 an hour ... This was 25 yr ago ... My first job in residental was 6.50 an hour w/o insurance .... Being in my 30's I knew I couldnt hang arounf long ...A yr later my boss really liked my work , He gave me a 50 cent raise ...:LOL: I saw he was chargng 40 an hour for me doing repairs ... I didnt know what installs were paying .... Oil cleanings were $ 50 and I was exspected to do one in an hour ...Out of my class of 25 , I think I one other guy paid for the course ... The others we gettin it paid by some gov fund thing ... Most the guys in there were re-trainning to make a better living ... One guy I saw several years later said he had to get out of the hvac field and started doin windows & door replacement ... Much better money he told me .. I quite after a year and started doin it on my own ...

[RoBoTeq]

I went thru an adult nite class at a local school .... Cost me 4500 .... We were told we could make 15-25 an hour ... This was 25 yr ago ... My first job in residental was 6.50 an hour w/o insurance .... Being in my 30's I knew I couldnt hang arounf long ...A yr later my boss really liked my work , He gave me a 50 cent raise ...:LOL: I saw he was chargng 40 an hour for me doing repairs ... I didnt know what installs were paying .... Oil cleanings were $ 50 and I was exspected to do one in an hour ...Out of my class of 25 , I think I one other guy paid for the course ... The others we gettin it paid by some gov fund thing ... Most the guys in there were re-trainning to make a better living ... One guy I saw several years later said he had to get out of the hvac field and started doin windows & door replacement ... Much better money he told me .. I quite after a year and started doin it on my own ...
Now that you are working for yourself, do you understand the other costs involved that require companies to charge so much more then their employees are paid to grow a business? Your tech may make $75 an hour for the company, but your receptionist doesn't bring in anything directly. Your rent, insurance, continued education etc. all have to be paid for out of what you charge per hour for the tech.

[yellowirenut]

Geeze...when I started as a refrigeration apprentice I was paid 97 cents or 87 cents and hour. R22 wasn't out yet, that I remember and R12 was fairly new and came in steel refrigeration bottles. Oh yea, and a service call in DC for refrigeration was $8.50 per hour.

was Willis Haviland Carrier your Journeyman???:couchhide:

[Joe Harper]

was Willis Haviland Carrier your Journeyman???:couchhide:\

Naa, Delta was just the guy who changed the horseshoes on the first service wagon....

[timebuilder]

When I started in this trade as an apprentice I was paid $5.50 /hr and I was happy to be there learning as much as I could from the seasoned guys, I wont tell you how many years back that was but never the less I knew I wanted to be there and I also knew the more I learned the better I was, with that comes reward in many ways, not just pay.

My first job paid $3.00 an hour. It was my start doing all things mechanical. At the time, minimum wage was something like $1.30 an hour.

Seven years later, I fixed my first gas heater for $6.00 an hour. Minimum wage was $2.30.

[Tool-Slinger]

My first job paid $3.00 an hour. It was my start doing all things mechanical. At the time, minimum wage was something like $1.30 an hour.

Seven years later, I fixed my first gas heater for $6.00 an hour. Minimum wage was $2.30.
You were paid to work on a fire in a pit?:couch:

Of course twenty years later they invented screws so things became easier after that. :angel:

[DeltaT]

was Willis Haviland Carrier your Journeyman???:couchhide:

Almost. I was hired as a refrigeration apprentice for a company in DC called Kogod, Dubb and Revere. They still might be in business. I worked for and under a guy named Mac McAlastier and was the shops whipping post. I did it all.

Mac started in the refrigeration business in 1928 or 38 as I remember. He knew stuff that was amazing. And when I was not looking at the girls on the jobs I actually learned a lot from him.

He got so mad at me once when we were installing an ice machine at the "new" University of Maryland's Students Union Building where I was watching the girls and not paying attention that he asked me to installed the ice bin thermostat bulb in the 600 or so pound machine. When I got in there he closed both doors and would not let me out for a while.

But then he owned me as he sat in front of a large refrigeration compressor that blew up, fire, smoke and burnt freon and I ran in the flames, smoke and dragged his butt out. He never really talked back to me much anymore after that.

[pdrake65]

I sleep with my bluetooth ear piece.

Do you shower with it?:whistle:

[RoBoTeq]

Do you shower with it?:whistle:
Yes, but I have to put in somewhere besides my ear so it doesn't get wet while I am showering.

[pdrake65]

Yes, but I have to put in somewhere besides my ear so it doesn't get wet while I am showering.

:eek:

[VTP99]

Yes, but I have to put in somewhere besides my ear so it doesn't get wet while I am showering.

Does it vibrate ? :cool: Oh that's right it just lights up.

[secorp]

My dad got paid in trade back in the day, moose meat, steaks, chicken, eggs, milk, etc....

[RoBoTeq]

My dad got paid in trade back in the day, moose meat, steaks, chicken, eggs, milk, etc....
I loved being able to bartar. I had an ongoing revolving tab with my doctor, my dentist and even the guy who owned the company that made my dental plates. Never paid a dime for health care for myself the entire time I was in business and had some of the best medical care you could ask for.

[secorp]

I loved being able to barter. I had an ongoing revolving tab with my doctor, my dentist and even the guy who owned the company that made my dental plates. Never paid a dime for health care for myself the entire time I was in business and had some of the best medical care you could ask for.

Back in those days the trade was often worth more than the cash that was to be charged. Gas was .37 a gallon, my dad got free diesel in his truck when we did farm jobs in remote Michigan. The farmers would not take no for an answer they always filled the truck up and fed us, then sent us on the road with sandwiches. sometimes we drove for what seemed like 12 hours. mostly during the winter, I remember the farmers would follow us in a tractor all the way to the main road to make sure we did not get stuck in the snow. A couple of those farmers had legendary daughters, my Dad would always say quit staring and get back to work.

[pdrake65]

If only my mortgage company would take chickens!!!

[supertek65]

i used to do alot of work for the tender touch massage parlor

[crackertech]

i used to do alot of work for the tender touch massage parlor

:D:D:D:LOL::LOL::LOL:what a deal.

[pdrake65]

i used to do alot of work for the tender touch massage parlor

Are they looking to have any work done?:whistle:

[John Markl]

i used to do alot of work for the tender touch massage parlor

I think I'm the only guy who ever went into the Oriental Spa, generated heat, and walked out with cash.....:D

[Joe Harper]

Dont forget to ask for the "happy ending".