Smardt Turbo Core Water Cooled Chillers. Opinions?

[FlewtheCoop]

My firm is doing a job for government ARA work. Out of curiosity and in the interest of trying something different than what i typically would do i got turned on to the Smardt Water Cooled Turbocore Cetrif. One of the owners rep claims he's read a lot of bad press on them. I can find anything on line. Any one have any opinions? I don't want to give them a huge POS.

Thanks,

[flange]

they are a sweet machine. downside is upfront purchase price is higher than some machines, especially a competitively sized choo choo for example, but I really like them or several resons. first, i like the mutliple compressors on larger units, i like the efficency at part load where they will run most of the time, i like the low noise level of any magnetic bearing machine, i like that you get real tonnage out of them, asopposed to say a low pressure machine that loses capacity over time due to oil logging to a degree in the evap. most of all, i like the fact that the technology is cool as opposed to old iron which people are stuck on buying. I like that the guys who sell those machines made in central pa, or at least they used to be, badmouthed the magnetic bearing machines for several years, but now are bringing one to market "in limited capacity". did i mention the inrush current? nothing as compared to tried and true machines, which makes them work well with emergeny generator setups. Size is usually a plus. I am sure i could go on, but am tired. take an honest look at total cost of ownership of one of these machines and you wil be surprised. we have a small one in for a while now, and it is trouble free for several years. there were issues with early machines, but company stood up, took their lumps, solved the issues and moved ahead.

[Randy S.]

Good old Mc was the only one with the cajones to do this. Now everyone wants on the bandwagon.

My hat remains off to my good friends back in VA.

[chiller is me]

Hi there, I'm new to this forum and let me start by telling that if this rep claimed he's seen a lot of bad press, that he should show it to you. I've seen Smardt chillers in action and let me tell you that they are sweet machines

[Randy S.]

I'd have to say that the water cooled Smardt I have seen is fine.
I take care of one McQuay, with another on the way. I strongly recommend Mcquay's WMC chiller course in beautiful Staunton, VA, as well as additional Turbocor compressor specific training. This technology is here to stay, and gets better as time goes by.

[hvac_superman]

We take care of quite a few chillers with Turbocor compressors, all Thermal Care. Very few problems to this point. We put our first unit in back in 07 and only had issues with that chiller when a pipefitter decided to clamp his ground on the chiller instead of the pipe he was welding. It's a different mindset with no oil. If you have a leak in the system you don't get the good old oil spill to lead you right to the leak.

[Teki Sharma]

Dear All, I am new to the forum,
Can anybody put some light on starting procedure of tubocor compressor , how is it taking care of starting torque with just 2 Ampere 460-3-60Hz supply, what will be the starting current if the voltage is 400-3-50Hz
Thanx all

[commloss]

Dear All, I am new to the forum,
Can anybody put some light on starting procedure of tubocor compressor , how is it taking care of starting torque with just 2 Ampere 460-3-60Hz supply, what will be the starting current if the voltage is 400-3-50Hz
Thanx all

It's actually closer to 4 amps at 460-3-60

[Galen Manapat]

I am an acting hvac supervisor (technician) at the University of South Carolina School of Medicine in Columbia South Carolina. I was asked about two months ago to start to evaluate different brands of refrigeration equipment which I have been doing. So I have been visiting sample equipment across South and North Carolina.

Part of my present job / responsibility is to make final recommendations for equipment changeout later this year and next. I am very familiar with our current 1980 Trane series twin "old style" 250 ton centrifugals. These older centrifugals are massive, heavy beasts.

These turbocore compressors are fascinating. Not just the theory: magnetic bearings and no oil. They are small. I'm visiting places using these turbocores and where they have been running for now three years without problems. One place in Charlotte had dirty cooling towers and had to add commercial water pre-strainers. That's it. NO SERIOUS PROBLEMS!

[sinc4]

I have had the pleasure to work on Smardt, McQuay and the MultiStack turbocor chillers. These things are awesome. I think the best one out there with the best panel is the MultiStack machine with the Flex controller.
Have not had any issues except with Smardt. They seem to have sold their soul to Direct Energy here in Canada and is a chore to get info from them. So it all comes down to the dealer networks around where you live.

[deltap10]

The ones I have seen with brazed plate heat exchangers are very unforgiving of dirt. Only way to clean them is backflush with a fire hose.

[sinc4]

The ones I have seen with brazed plate heat exchangers are very unforgiving of dirt. Only way to clean them is backflush with a fire hose.

Not a fan of the brazed plate. I prefer the flooded machines from MultiStack

[jiffypop]

I would stay away from Smardt, Direct Energy is heavily involved and the service suck's. I used to work for Direct Energy so I know alot about what is going on, here in Canada they are trying to squeeze everyone out of this market. I actually just replaced an IGV today on a retrofit that Direct Energy used to have and we had to be creative in getting the part's. Customer is very pissed off with Smardt.

[ascj]

We have a couple Smardt's we put in '08. All I can say is I'm very impressed with them. The run times on the compressors are with minutes, the software always to pull up anything you could possibly think of, and they are so quiet.

I here about the issues in Canada with direct energy, but it isn't like that in the states(at least in our area).
http://www.danfoss.com/SolutionsReady/NewsAndEvents/Archive/Solutions+Ready+News/New-chillers-preserve-valuable-sports-films-and-save-a-lot-of-energy/4927F6C2-A066-4472-9CFF-FA3DDA563F88.html

[Galen Manapat]

I am an acting hvac supervisor (technician) at the University of South Carolina School of Medicine in Columbia South Carolina. I was asked about two months ago to start to evaluate different brands of refrigeration equipment which I have been doing. So I have been visiting sample equipment across South and North Carolina.

Part of my present job / responsibility is to make final recommendations for equipment changeout later this year and next. I am very familiar with our current 1980 Trane series twin "old style" 250 ton centrifugals. These older centrifugals are massive, heavy beasts.

These turbocore compressors are fascinating. Not just the theory: magnetic bearings and no oil. They are small. I'm visiting places using these turbocores and where they have been running for now three years without problems. One place in Charlotte had dirty cooling towers and had to add commercial water pre-strainers. That's it. NO SERIOUS PROBLEMS!

5/24/2011
We are looking at traditional long barrell (tube in a bundle) coolers. They are tried and proven but fairly long. I am fairly hesitant to recommend a "stacked plate heat exchanger version unless it is well designed with easy access and shut off valves for a possible plate heat exchanger replacement in the future.

I am not not knocking plate heat exchangers, but if the contractor does not properly preflush the metal from the piping in the system you will have problems after he leaves. That's my take.

[feefer636]

I have had seen and worked on many Smardt chiller installs. They are definitely the way of the future. They make so much sense, I have heard they are a bit expensive, but you will get your money back in energy savings quickly. I would highly recommend Smardt.

[jiffypop]

One company who is great to work with is Thermalcare, they return your calls and can actually help you remotely in most cases.

[doubleduece]

Dear All, I am new to the forum,
Can anybody put some light on starting procedure of tubocor compressor , how is it taking care of starting torque with just 2 Ampere 460-3-60Hz supply, what will be the starting current if the voltage is 400-3-50Hz
Thanx all

Well first off it has a VFD strapped to its back, and it is frictionless.

[Galen Manapat]

It's actually closer to 4 amps at 460-3-60

To: Teki I don't know if you are a younger guy.

Those of us older guys who baby sit 1980 250 ton Carrier or Trane units with Wye / Delta startup have units with motor control boxes 10 feet high, and 3 feet wide. Guess the size of the conductors? (about 4 ought)

We have four large contactors in those boxes and large wound wire resistors that absorb the huge current surge backfeed when they switch "from 1st gear" to 2nd at startup. (start: parallel, run, series) Surge startup is 460+ amps at 460 volts.

A misfunction of the start up contactors would result in a pure short, blowing the steel door off the control box.

For any of these to run on generator, they would require a generator powered by a diesal close to the size of a locomotive.

So when I see your post worrying about the 4-6 amp startup 460 volts of the Smardt with variable speed drive, I am amused.

It should be obvious to all that now it is possible to run at least some of these smaller compressors on traditional generators IF configured and wired correctly.

[Brentc]

The company i work for sells smardt chillers. We have put in several and have'nt had any problems with them so far. All of our customers have been very pleased with them as well.
Brent

[Galen Manapat]

To: Teki I don't know if you are a younger guy.

Those of us older guys who baby sit 1980 250 ton Carrier or Trane units with Wye / Delta startup have units with motor control boxes 10 feet high, and 3 feet wide. Guess the size of the conductors? (about 4 ought)

We have four large contactors in those G.E. motor control boxes and large wound wire resistors that absorb the huge current surge backfeed when they switch "from 1st gear" to 2nd at startup. (start: parallel, run, series) Surge startup is 460+ amps at 460 volts.

A misfunction of the start up contactors would result in a pure short, blowing the steel door off the control box. (Do not be there.)

For any of these to run on generator, they would require a generator powered by a diesel close to the size of a locomotive.

So when I see your post worrying about the 4-6 amp startup 460 volts of the Smardt with variable speed drive, I am amused.

It should be obvious to all that now it is possible to run at least some of these smaller compressors on traditional generators IF configured and wired correctly.

===========================================

Teki,

I may not have explained something.

You have to understand that "older technology 1975" (which was THE BEST at the time) came up with the older centrifugal chiller, which we are now just replacing, that centrifugals were the answer when we had a cooling load over 50 tons. At the time, they were "state of the art." The older rotating ? vanes ? operate in a cavity 6 ft+ tall ?

These centrifugals may weigh 10 tons, or more. ( I don't know exactly) The point is that the main rotating vane sections or (R-11 refrigerant mover ((which by the way flashes off at @ 70 degrees F)), may have weighed 600 lbs. or MORE. (Think about overhaul)!

That is why they took such high start up amps. It was a MASSIVE piece of steel or cast iron to start up.

These new compressors have MASS that is nothing compared to 600 lbs because they are small.

With variable speed drive (which one of the wonders of the last 50 years, they are NOTHING to start up!

GET IT?

[chiller rob]

the 2 amps is to levitate the shaft with the magnetic bearings...
from there the shaft is floating on a magnetic field so its frictionless...
the motor is a perminate magnet and operates kinda like your cordless drill...
just like any vfd, the current is metered on startup as the compressor spools up eliminating inrush amps...

Chiller Rob

[doubleduece]

The turbo core has both perm and electro magnets, the electro mags compensate based on proximity sensors to keep it centered