Bryant vs Carrier in Houston

[rske476537]

I live in Houston and I am looking to replace my entire central air an heat system (26 year old furnance, my 12 year old condensor) and all duct work. My house is two story with 2550 sq foot and in Houston we use the ac about 9 months per year. I would like to get the $1500 federal credit. I have narrowed my selection to two contractors:

One is offering a Ruud; 16 SEER, 12 EER system and a 95% efficient furnace with a UVC light and 3 years labor warranty for $500 more than the second contractor

Second contractor is offering a Bryant 16.5 SEER, 13 EER system and an 80% efficient furnace

What are the pros and cons of the UVC light?
Which contractor is offering the best deal and why?

Any and all comments/advise/suggestions are appreciated.

MY heading is incorrect--should be Byrant vs Ruud

thank you.

[mrbenz7]

Both brands are very good IMO. The biggest difference is the efficiency of the furnace! How often do you use that? My guess from being here in Phoenix would be not very often and an 80% efficient furnace should do well.

I don't have enough info to tell you who has the better deal and why. As far as the UV light goes, your in a much more humid climate than I am and these are supposed to deter molds and funguses in your AC ductwork, but I've never seen enough of these to be able to determine if they actually do what is claimed.

Keep in mind that here in Arizona our heat is very dry and humidity in the outer edges on the valley is somewhere around 6% and with this dry air, we don't get molds very often. Monsoon season happens around August when it is 108*F and raining, but this won't last long.

[Mr Bill]

You should remove your pricing per rules.
A 95% furnace is a waste of money in Houston "just my opinion"
The Tax credit, I hope you have studied that, it's only a $1500.00 credit towards any Tax liability you might have, if you owe $3000.00 you would now owe $1500.00.
I sell RUUD so I am a little bias, both systems would be fine, remember the installation is the most important, not brand.

[rske476537]

Mr. Bill --what is your opinion of the need for the UVC light --is it worth it?
Thank you.

[beshvac]

I am a carrier/bryant dealer and am biased toward them. But the if the best installing contractor sold the Ruud, I would recommend that.

Its how the equipment is installed which makes the difference.

[Mr Bill]

Mr. Bill --what is your opinion of the need for the UVC light --is it worth it?
Thank you.

Well "usually" most company's throw the UV lights in the package deal as big as your job, and also part of somes sales pitch, so paying for one like an itemized part of the bid is a bit strange. UV lights that I know of have no cons, hope this helps.

[classical]

The light is a waste of money and energy, filtration is much more important. With good filtration the light is superfluous.
You need to be very careful with tax credit systems in Houston because they may have the wrong SHR (sensible heat ratio) for our climate. The Rudd system has a variable speed motor what does the Bryant have.
Have you had a load calculation performed, you state you are having your ductwork replaced; why. Do you currently have metal duct or flex, are you replacing with flex. Ductwork is the most critical aspect of an HVAC system. Have you considered an energy audit and improving the homes envelope and insulation to reduce load and maximize the homes efficiency and the health of the home.

[rske476537]

The ducts are 26 years old and have deteriorated--they would not pass Houston code today.
Both units are 5 ton, variable speed, multi- stage--both are offering the 4'' media filters and R8 with baffled collars and an additional return air vent--a new slab and a new disconnect box--

One made the UVC light sound like a big deal.

Thank you.

[classical]

A 2550 sq.ft. 2-story built in 1984 in Houston almost certainly does not need a 5-ton system. In fact is is very possible to reduce the load to 3-tons or less which equates to real energy savings.

[Mr Bill]

One made the UVC light sound like a big deal.

Why do I not find this hard to believe? :D

[Mr Bill]

The ducts are 26 years old and have deteriorated--they would not pass Houston code today.
Thank you.

Not pass code? when did it become code to have to change out all your duct work when doing a change out? sounds more like a scare tactic to me. If the duct is the old gray flex, yes yank it out and throw it into Galveston bay, if you have metal duct, you have something to work with, I would not let anyone tear it out.

[Texas-Tech]

Are you going to be able to get to all the ductwork to replace it? Usually on a 2 story your gonna have to rip out some drywall for access. Also you have to achieve a 13EER to qualify for the tax credit.

[rske476537]

All the contractors said they would only replace the duct work they could access--the duct work between the floors will not be replaced

The Byrant is a 5 ton Legacy 16 Puron system with a 58,500 btuh cooling capacity 13 EER and 16.5 SEER and a 80% efficiency furnance

The Ruud is a 5 ton 16 SEER; 12 EER and a 95% efficiency furnance--and a UVC light and is a little more expensive

[Mr Bill]

Can you post the RUUD model numbers on all the equipment?

[classical]

I suspect he is getting some very bad advice and I bet I know at least one of the companies.

The guy across the street from me had another well known company install a new system in his house. Turns out his son works for the company. I told him repeatedly his old system was oversized and his ductwork (metal) did not need to be replaced.

Well a few weeks back I saw the trucks roll up and the ripped out all of the ductwork and equipment. Installed a 14 SEER basic system still oversized, new flex lights and attic insulation 20 inches. They have been out a half dozen times since; he has come over complaining already how uncomfortable his house is. Ask me what he can do; sorry not my problem now.

I just sit in my nice comfortable house and laugh.

[Mr Bill]

I suspect he is getting some very bad advice.

Al, why don't you contact this person and go give him a free evaluation of his complete system? Are you sitting down? I do believe that the 5-ton will be to big, he will probably have issues with latent from not enough run time. For example, If his 5-ton runs 10 minutes at 20 amps or if his 3-ton runs 20 minutes at 10 amps, I would go with the 3-ton, just my opinion.

[rske476537]

Ruud: UARL-060JEC, RGTM-09EZAJS 95/ECM, RCFN-HM6024AC (16 SEER; 12 EER) with a95% furnace efficiency--that's is how it qualifies for the fed credit)

Bryant: Outdoor unit; 126ANA060-A
Indoor unit; CNPH*6024A
Furnace Model #; 313*AV060110
Legacy 16 Puron AC---SEER is 16.5 and EER is 13

Again, the Ruud is offering 3 year labor warranty and the UVC light and is a little more expensive.

[classical]

Al, why don't you contact this person and go give him a free evaluation of his complete system? Are you sitting down? I do believe that the 5-ton will be to big, he will probably have issues with latent from not enough run time. For example, If his 5-ton runs 10 minutes at 20 amps or if his 3-ton runs 20 minutes at 10 amps, I would go with the 3-ton, just my opinion.

I am flabbergasted Bill, welcome to the dark side.

I do not have time for him right now besides he is narrowed into his choices and does not seem inclined towards education.

I am in the middle of training for myself my crews and salesmen; I go back to Daytona next week for another week of classes. I am taking my BPI BA and Envelope test next week. The last month has been very hectic constantly in the books and viewing online training as well as a week in Daytona.

[Mr Bill]

Again, the Ruud is offering 3 year labor warranty.

This could mean a lot of money you could possibly save, if you have any serious issues after the first year, if the other company is only offering a 1-year warranty. Labor rates can be awful expensive, for example, if you had a leaking condenser coil in a couple years, you have a lot of thinking to do here I can see.

[classical]

Ruud: UARL-060JEC, RGTM-09EZAJS 95/ECM, RCFN-HM6024AC (16 SEER; 12 EER) with a95% furnace efficiency--that's is how it qualifies for the fed credit)

Bryant: Outdoor unit; 126ANA060-A
Indoor unit; CNPH*6024A
Furnace Model #; 313*AV060110
Legacy 16 Puron AC---SEER is 16.5 and EER is 13

Again, the Ruud is offering 3 year labor warranty and the UVC light and is a little more expensive.

I do not think you are grasping that we feel that neither system is appropriate. Has either company performed a load calculation on your house or performed an energy audit to advise you on envelope upgrades that can significantly improve your homes health and efficiency.

[BaldLoonie]

There is no AHRI rating for RARL-60 with RGTM-09. With the 07, which is a 4 ton drive, it is 15.00/11.85 and with the 10 it is 15.00/12.05 so not the 16 you think.

The RGTM is a fine furnace---for a cold climate!

You better listen to Bill & Al.

[rske476537]

I received 10 quotes from experienced (up to 35 years) contractors and all quoted a 5 ton unit- (the builder put in a 5 ton unit).

I would be happy to go with a small (thus cheaper) unit if it did the job.

[BaldLoonie]

How many did a thorough manual J?

[rske476537]

Not one.

[classical]

I received 10 quotes from experienced (up to 35 years) contractors and all quoted a 5 ton unit- (the builder put in a 5 ton unit).

I would be happy to go with a small (thus cheaper) unit if it did the job.

Means nothing see Baldloonies query!!

Nothing is proven until it is disproved!

[classical]

Not one.

That means everyone is assuming the original install was correct, in 1984 builders did not perform proper Manual J calculations. Have you had any improvements made to the house since it was built, changed windows, added insulation, had siding installed or do you now have trees that provide shade.

Assuming the tonnage is wrong until you have disproven that supposition with a properly performed load calculation.

If you are just going on price you get what you deserve, with 10 contractors you should be good and confused by now.

[rske476537]

Speaks volumes about their integrity.

I should have the top three come out an conduct manual load calculation.

I am factoring in price, quality of equipment, experience and warranties

[wolfdog]

Ruud: UARL-060JEC, RGTM-09EZAJS 95/ECM, RCFN-HM6024AC (16 SEER; 12 EER) with a95% furnace efficiency--that's is how it qualifies for the fed credit)

Bryant: Outdoor unit; 126ANA060-A
Indoor unit; CNPH*6024A
Furnace Model #; 313*AV060110
Legacy 16 Puron AC---SEER is 16.5 and EER is 13

Again, the Ruud is offering 3 year labor warranty and the UVC light and is a little more expensive.


I hope that's a misprint. The 126ANAxxxx is last years model and being phased out.

The 116BNAxxxx is the current 16 SEER when matched with those components.

Maybe that helps you in your decision.

[rske476537]

Thank you.
I will need to check to see if this was a misprint---the AHRI reflects:
Product: Split System: Air-Cooled Condensing Unit, Coil with Blower
Outdoor Unit Model Number: 126ANA060-A
Indoor Unit Model Number: CNPH*6024A**
Furnace Model Number: 313*AV060110
Manufacturer: Bryant Heating and Cooling Systems
Trade/Brand name: Legacy 16 Puron AC

Rated as follows in accordance with AHRI Standard 210/240-2006 for Unitary Air-Conditioning and Air-Source Heat Pump Equipment and subject to.......

Cooling Capacity (Btuh): 58,500
EER Rating (cooling) : 13.00
SEER Rating (cooling) : 16.50

[RyanHughes]

The 126 is the new Legacy 2 stage. The 116 is single stage, less coil protection, base series.

[rske476537]

I emailed him and his reply was that it is a "multi stage condenser with a variable furnace".

[classical]

Speaks volumes about their integrity.

I should have the top three come out an conduct manual load calculation.

I am factoring in price, quality of equipment, experience and warranties

Here is the thing if they did not mention or perform a manual J before anything they produce now is suspect. A manual J is like any program it can be manipulated to produce the results you want.

Contractors everywhere especially so in Houston are afraid of the result of load calculation programs because it goes against what they have always done. For the majority of contractors ignorance is bliss and it is easier to sell boxes, rebates and good feelings than the truth. They are unconcerned with your comfort or your energy savings just their pocketbook and peace of mind that you will not call them when it is above ninety five degrees.

Give me a call number is in my profile and I will give you an honest assessment of the contractors you have been talking to. I may not know all of them but I likely know most of them.

[Mr Bill]

I received 10 quotes from experienced (up to 35 years) contractors and all quoted a 5 ton unit- (the builder put in a 5 ton unit).

A/C and Heating technology have come a long ways since 1984, I am not dissing your contractors, but even if you find one with 35 years experience and there still doing things like they did 35 years ago, they are not doing you any justice. Look, at the very least, have one of them come out and do a load calculation, and if the envelope of your home is terrible,and you don't want to spend any money to address this, you might need 5-tons. You are spending a lot of money, I saw the prices in the beginning of your post before you removed them, at those prices they should be giving you there platinum service, which would include a load calc. they may not let you keep the results of the calc. unless you signed a contract with them, but you would know now what tonnage you need. 10 quotes? nothing personal, because I don't know you, but most of us here call a person with 10 quotes a "tire kicker" and most of us smart ones would stay away from that job. :yes:

[wolfdog]

The 126 is the new Legacy 2 stage. The 116 is single stage, less coil protection, base series.

Negative.

127 is the preferred 2 stage scroll.

The 126 is a single stage scroll and is being phased out for 2010. It is not in the new line up.

113 & 116 are your 13-16 SEER match -ups. I am looking at the price sheets as we speak.

[RyanHughes]

Negative.

127 is the preferred 2 stage scroll.

The 126 is a single stage scroll and is being phased out for 2010. It is not in the new line up.

113 & 116 are your 13-16 SEER match -ups. I am looking at the price sheets as we speak.

http://www.docs.hvacpartners.com/idc/groups/public/documents/techlit/pds226a-01.pdf - 126A 2-stage Legacy

I also see the 127A, which must have replaced the 126. I don't think the 126 was ever a single stage, but I could be off base with that. Bryant changes their product line so rapidly that it's hard for me to keep up. Sorry if I gave some misinformation. :)

[rske476537]

I will get a manual evalution from one or two of the contracts.

10 quotes were obtained because although each contract was given the same information and shown the same existing equipment, I received 10 different quotes/spin--(except they all quoted a 5 ton unit) thus the need for so much due diligence, this blog and the conclusion that the HVAC is certainly a buyer beware industry.

Before I spend this kind of money replacing my 26 year old system, I like everyone else want to get the most bang for my buck-- I hope to pull the trigger on a new system this week and thus do not consider myself a tire kicker and the contractors who do will miss out on this sale/maintenance opportunity.

[Mr Bill]

this blog and the conclusion that the HVAC is certainly a buyer beware industry.


Along with, Lawyers,Doctors,dentists,electricians, plumbers, computer techs, and hundreds more, we sure don't have any patent on the " buyer beware industry". I did not mean anything personal about the "tire kicker" thing, as I said I don't even know you, but 10 bids is considered a bunch, in most construction related businesses. All we all were "trying" to do here is further educate you on this type of business, it's called constructive criticism, we welcome you here, and I am guessing you did come here for our opinions, anyway have a wonderful day, it's beautiful in Houston, I am headed for the Willowbrook Mall.

[sktn77a]

In addition to the technology changing over the last 30 years, our understanding of indoor air quality and comfort has also changed. Systems are no longer oversized to allow fast cooling (at the expense of dehumidification). The general recommendation now, especially in humid climates like yours, is to use the smallest equipment possible for a given design spec. This is why you need a heat gain calculation and not assume the old system was right. And one other point, the larger systems (4, 5 ton) generally do not meet the efficiency specs for the tax credit while smaller ones do.

So the key here is to get the heat loss/gain calculations ("Manual J") done and size the system correctly. Ask your contractor to provide you with one to enable you to make a decision.

[beshvac]

And the other part of the equation is these are CUSTOM systems-every last one of them, Its not just a box like buying a refrigerator. I use physics and a laptop to come up with my designs, some contractors use their thumbs :D

Purchasing a fridge--go to lowes, home depot, sears and bestbuy. they are all the same price and rely upon the skill of the delivery driver.

[5 star]

I will get a manual evalution from one or two of the contracts.

10 quotes were obtained because although each contract was given the same information and shown the same existing equipment, I received 10 different quotes/spin--(except they all quoted a 5 ton unit) thus the need for so much due diligence, this blog and the conclusion that the HVAC is certainly a buyer beware industry.

Before I spend this kind of money replacing my 26 year old system, I like everyone else want to get the most bang for my buck-- I hope to pull the trigger on a new system this week and thus do not consider myself a tire kicker and the contractors who do will miss out on this sale/maintenance opportunity.If you had the right contractor, you would have never felt the need to come on a website to obtain information from complete strangers who have not had the chance to look over your structure.

This fact alone means not one of the ten contractors/salesman were able to make you feel completely comfortable that you would receive a correctly installed system that would last and meet your needs.

Time is money, and to install a system correctly takes time, which means a correctly installed system is usually the higher bids, being top quality contractors know their costs, what time will be involved and understand true value is a satisfied customer who receives a top tier quality job from good craftsmanship.

That is how you get the best bang for your buck sir, a properly installed system that will last 20 years, and you’ll know the contractor who is right for you when they make you feel 100% comfortable with them after spending several hours explaining everything to you. Your gut will be your guide.

[classical]

You cant be comfortable with a single speed as even if your load is correct. and it's not, your oversized 97.5% of the time.


What is your point and yes you can achieve comfort with a single speed. Granted a 2-stage system is always preferable but not all customers will have the wherewithal or desire to spend that kind of money.

Performing a blower door test and addressing envelope issues is also always preferred. My point was/is Manual J loads are certainly better than a rule of thumb which is what the OP is getting.

[Mr Bill]

If this guy brings the contractors back and they all use a laptop and do a manual J, there is no way any of them will get the same numbers. There are too many unknowns.

Sorry this ain't physics.

Manual J has no credibly on old houses.

I don't think it's beyond any home owner here to go back with some good information from this site and question some of his bidders, and when asked were did you get that from, they tell them, Are you one of his bidders? :toetap:

[beshvac]

Laptop and physics? Bull. You telling me you can add a bunch of values you don't know (like the infiltration rates) and get a credible answer? How does that work?

If this guy brings the contractors back and they all use a laptop and do a manual J, there is no way any of them will get the same numbers. There are too many unknowns.

Sorry this ain't physics.

Manual J has no credibly on old houses.

BS right back at you. Put up or shut up. You have been asked in your other thread for some data and you skirt the issue. It is physics and the application of physical laws in Manual J. Fill out your profile, show us your credentials to make your claims, show some proof or your posts are just BS.

[classical]

You are scientist

Well little fella my credentials are not in question here yours are. Anyone on this site knows fully who I am and what my background is, as of yet you have provided nor proven anything. One thing about this site you cannot come on here and bloviate for long without being called out.

The main people replying to this thread and your thread are well known with considerable history and talent. If you wish to make a point provide something besides your opinion.

We all learn everyday but we only seek the truth not unsubstantiated opinion.

[classical]

Oh and yes we will be performing a blower door and load calculation on every house we service starting in about two weeks.

[badboyheel]

And people in our industry say we need more women in the trade. Man i have a headache already.

[beshvac]

Phil, post your LIST OF USERS