Need advice - 2 ton replacement system

[Texquest]

I am new to this forum and would appreciate help in understanding the replacement system options. We want reliability, good efficiency, and comfort.

We felt this was a good time to replace the upstairs unit because of company rebates, state rebates, and the federal tax credit.

2 story house built in the early 1980’s. 2 units, both have outside condensers with the natural gas furnaces in the attics. 2nd floor 2 ton unit with a Freon leak that we are planning on replacing. 2nd floor about 1000 sqft, no trees on the west side. Our 1” filters are at the return air grill, which is at the bottom of a duct board chase (rectangular chimney built into the wall). Central Texas, hot summers, winters can get cold but not too bad, and lots of pollen.

I have been reading postings on the forum trying to learn enough to make a good choice. Had 3 companies come out and give bids. They said that all of these units meet requirements for the tax credit and SECO state rebate. I took the AHRI#’s to the web and copied the info from the CEE HVAC directory. After reading on the forum I have asked for additional information. There is up to a 37% diff in the price of similar units. So far this is what I have received:

1st company

a) 3220615 Active OEM XL20I Trane 4TTZ0024A1 4TXCC006CC3 *UD2C080ACV4 24400 14 19.5 CEE Tier 3 (Advanced) RCU-A-CB XL900

b) 3427677 Active OEM XR15 Trane 4TTR5024E1 4TXFH004BS3 *DD060R9V3 21600 13 16 CEE Tier 3 (Advanced) RCU-A-CB XL803

c) 3440339 Active OEM XB14 TRANE 4TTB4024E1 4TXCB003CC3 *UD060R9V3 20800 12 16 CEE Tier 3 (Advanced) RCU-A-CB XL803

2nd company (did a Manual J)

d) 3220603 Active OEM XL20I Trane 4TTZ0024A1 4TXCB003CC3 *UD060R9V3 24000 13.5 18.75 CEE Tier 3 (Advanced) RCU-A-CB TCONT900

e) 3427187 Active OEM XR15 Trane 4TTR5024E1 4TXCB003CC3 *UD060R9V3 20800 13 16 CEE Tier 3 (Advanced) RCU-A-CB TCONT600

3rd company

f) 21 SEER Carrier Infinity 2-Speed System
g) 17 SEER Carrier Infinity 2-Speed System
h) 16 SEER Carrier Comfort System
Qty (1) Carrier 2 -Ton HVAC System w/ Gas Heat.
Qty (1) Carrier Programmable Thermostat. (Infinity Stat w/ Infinity System)
Salesman said I could find the model numbers to use for AHRI #’s on the Carrier website. I have asked him to please provide the AHRI #’s

Questions:
1) Which configuration would work best?
2) What is the difference in equipment between the bids (a & d) for the Trane XL20i Which would be best?
3) Same questions for the XR15 (b & e)
4) How do the Carrier systems compare to the Trane?
5) Any other thoughts?

Your knowledge and help are very appreciated.

Thank you
Texquest

[tallman744]

First you have to ask your self what is your budget. If you are only worried about the rebate money, then I would get the 14 Seer system with that meets the ARI rebate. But let’s think about the long term. If it is the electrical savings that you are after then I would but looking at the highest SEER/EER system. Both Carrier and Trane make good systems. Both companies have very good web sites that will show and answer your questions about each difference system. One plus on Trane over Carrier I feel is the all Aluminum coils on inside and outside units.

[Stamas]

You've look real hard at the equipment, now look even harder at the contractors.
Be sure of credentials, licensing, insurance, references, etc. Make yourself real comfortable that they are looking closely at your home in sizing it for the systems proposed and that they have looked at the duct system. That is where real efficiency and comfort can be gained or lost.
See this thread and check what Skipped posted.
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?p=6487932#post6487932

[Texquest]

tallman744,
thank you for your thoughts.

We are planning to stay in this house, so long term reliability and efficiency are more important the initial cost. Thank you for the information about the aluminum coils on the inside and outside of the Trane.

What is the difference between "4TXCC006CC3 *UD2C080ACV4" and "4TXCB003CC3 *UD060R9V3 " ?

Are these the same efficiency furnaces?

Are the coils different sizes?

Thank you for the information.

Texquest

[sjones]

Have you cosidered doing a Duel Fuel. Heat pump outside and Gas Furnace. I would assume Texas isn't to cold and the Heat Pump can save you a lot over Gas.

[Texquest]

Stamas
thank you for the links.

I have read skippedover's "stock answers" and found some good information.

Only one of the companies did a Manual J. No one mentioned a Manual D.

Since we are replacing a system, would a Manual D be done before we decide on a company, or after we choose a company but before work is done?

All have BBB ratings of A or A-, have state license, insurance, and references.

I did notice when I was putting this on a spread sheet to share with my husband and make comparisons easier, that the XB14 system DOES NOT meet the requirements for the federal tax credit. That makes me uneasy.

Thanks

Texquest

[Texquest]

sjones Have you cosidered doing a Duel Fuel. Heat pump outside and Gas Furnace. I would assume Texas isn't to cold and the Heat Pump can save you a lot over Gas.
We talked about a heat pump, but the cost to install in attic of 2nd floor - running electrical, something about a breaker box, not a lot of space, and additional ventilation - made the installation cost so high it would eliminate any savings according to all the companies.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Texquest

[skippedover]

Manual 'J' determines the load on the home as well as the load in each room of the home. Manual 'D' is the duct design phase of the job. If the ducts are not properly sized for the system, then uneven temperatures, high static pressures or other issues might arise. Without a Manual 'J', the contractor has no way of knowing whether the existing duct system is sized appropriately for the new system going in. It may be fine or not. Finally, Manual 'S' helps select the proper equipment. All split system AC units are rated at 95F capacity. If the design temperature for your area is 105F, then the capacity of the system needs to be adjusted for that loss (capacity loss) but if the design criteria for your area is 90F, then the equipment rating actually has excess capacity. Likewise on the sensible/latent Btu spread.

What this all means is that if a company actually takes the time to do a proper Manual 'J' gain/loss, they're probably a company that is going to the rest of the job properly too. For those who, for a multitude of excuses, can't be bothered to do the Manual 'J', what makes you think they'll be bothered to do any of the rest of the job properly either?

So brand is relatively unimportant. Who designs and installs the equipment is of the utmost importance. If you're a homeowner as opposed to an HVAC expert, you're kind of thrown under the bus, which is one good reason you inquired on this website. Congratulations, your smarter than 98% of the population! :pileon:That's why I did my little 'primer'. To help ho's separate the wheat from the chaff. And there's an awful lot of chaff out there!!

[Texquest]

thanks skippedover, for the information you have posted.

That helps to narrow the installers. Now for the decision about the system efficiency.

[Texquest]

What is the difference between the UD060R9V3 and UD2C080ACV4 furnace?

Thanks for the help.

Texquest

[tallman744]

Specification Communicating Downflow/Horizontal Direct/Non-Direct Vent 2 Stage Gas Furnace with Varialble Speed Inducer AUD2C080ACV42A. Which is an 80,000 BTU gas furnace. The UD060R9V3 unit is a 60,000 BTU gas furnace.

Hopes this helps.

[Texquest]

tallman744
Thank you for the information about the gas furnace differences.

It really does help.

I am beginning to understand the questions I need to ask. :D

Thank you

Texquest

[sjones]

A/C UNIT INDOOR COIL FURNACE EER SEER AHRI
24APA724A30 CNPHP2417A 58CVA070-12 13.00 16.00 3483730 Active

24ANA124A32 CNPHP3617A 58CVA070-12 13.80 18.50 3548742 Active

[RyanHughes]

The TUD060A9V3 is not the communicating model (which is likely a mistake by the dealer, since he is quoting the communicating XL900 thermostat). The TUD2C080ACV4 is an 80k btu furnace and is communicating.

[Texquest]

sjones
Thanks for the information about the Carrier units.

I am assuming that these both have 70,000 btu furnaces based on the 70 (58CVA070-12) of the model number?

Texquest

[Texquest]

RyanHughes
The TUD060A9V3 is not the communicating model (which is likely a mistake by the dealer, since he is quoting the communicating XL900 thermostat). The TUD2C080ACV4 is an 80k btu furnace and is communicating.

Thank you for pointing that out.

Does the furnace need to be a communicating furnace to have the dehumidification feature?

Texquest

[RyanHughes]

To use the dehumidification feature of the 900 communicating stat, yes.

Though the non-communicating model will have Comfort-R (slow ramp up to remove humidity), I really suggest the communicating models since going with the XL20i (which comes pre-wired for communicating equipment anyway).

[Texquest]

RyanHughes
To use the dehumidification feature of the 900 communicating stat, yes.

Though the non-communicating model will have Comfort-R (slow ramp up to remove humidity), I really suggest the communicating models since going with the XL20i (which comes pre-wired for communicating equipment anyway).

Thank you for the information. I had been wondering which furnaces would have the dehumidification feature. It is difficult to keep all the models, features and interactions straight.

Any other thoughts or information is appreciated.

Texquest

[Texquest]

Our plan is to replace the 2nd floor AC condenser, gas furnace, and coil. Have narrowed it down to a Trane unit, probably the XL20i - because of the installing company, efficiency, comfort (dehumidification), reliability (hopefully) and the rebates and tax credit.

The first floor unit (1997, Trane XL1200) is still working, no problems so far.

In your experience, at 13 years old, should we also replace the downstairs system and take advantage of the current Trane $1000 rebate (plus company said they would take 3% off both systems if installed at the same time.) OR Wait till we have problems with the downstairs system?

Thank you for your thoughts,

Texquest

[Texquest]

RyanHughes
- do I remember reading in one of your posts that Trane will be coming out with a new system sometime this year?

Thanks

Texquest

[RyanHughes]

That's a tough call, and one hopefully others will give their thoughts on. Some systems have required replacement after 6 or 8 years (likely due to installation issues), and some can go 20+ years without a major failure requiring replacement. Depends on a number of factors. The Trane units generally have good lifespans and are good units, but nothing says it can't fail in the next couple years. Likewise it could also last you several more years. At 13 years old, you've gotten the average life expectancy out of the unit. However you mention having had no problems thus far. If you could replace both at the same time and take advantage of the incentives (along with the potential tax credit), then I would strongly consider it. Doing so would give you two matching new systems with 10 year warranties (12 on compressor as far as I know). The 3% off on each system doesn't sound substantial when you're about to give the company a considerable amount of business for one home.

[RyanHughes]

As for the new system, the only thing I've been told is that Trane will be coming out with a 16 SEER 2-stage non-communicating condenser to replace the XL16i, which not many on this site are big proponents of for a number of reasons. The 20i, as far as I know, is staying where it is (that replaced the 19i). Also, Trane will be coming out with a new indoor air handler (doesn't apply since you have gas) that is smaller, has better insulation, and has an aluminum indoor coil. This is supposed to be before 2011, but we'll see.

Manufacturers are always coming out with new products, some of which are designed to meet the tax credit criteria. Carrier/Bryant have made numerous changes in a very short time period.

[Texquest]

RyanHughes
Thanks for your thoughts on the replacement and information on the upcoming Trane units.


If you could replace both at the same time and take advantage of the incentives (along with the potential tax credit), then I would strongly consider it. Doing so would give you two matching new systems with 10 year warranties (12 on compressor as far as I know). The 3% off on each system doesn't sound substantial when you're about to give the company a considerable amount of business for one home.

The tax credit (as I understand it) is for a total credit of $1500 (30% of qualifying items.) This would be for $5000 in costs. We will be paying more than $5000 for the 2nd floor system, so we will not get any tax credit for the additional expenditure.

Would it be appropriate to ask the company for say 7% off each system? I do not want to offend or irritate them.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Texquest

[RyanHughes]

I'm not sure what the upfront cost is you're looking at (against site rules), but for the average install cost of the 20i, 3% isn't much, and 7% may be more reasonable. If they don't want the job, they won't get the job. You don't want them cutting any corners however. I do think there is room for negotiation since you might potentially be getting two complete systems.

[Texquest]

RyanHughes
Thank you for the guidance.

I have just been reading PULLTHRU's problem with his "New Lennox system" - makes me want to just go and hide. We also had major problems with our last replacement. Not what I need to be reading just before starting a replacement.

I have set up an appointment with the company to come out on Monday and go over details, timelines and probably sign a contract. If anyone has any other thoughts or comments I would appreciate them. :anyone:

Thank you all for sharing your time and knowledge.

Texquest

[sktn77a]

Would it be appropriate to ask the company for say 7% off each system? I do not want to offend or irritate them.

Unfortunately, no-one here can tell you that. The contractor might have padded his price obscenely or he may have given you a cut-to-the-bone price. The installation may be a very simple swap out or a very complex re-work. Without knowing any of this, it's hard to know if there is any "wiggle" room in the price.

Most contractors will cut corners (hidden corners) if you nickel-and-dime them on the price.

[Texquest]

sktn77a
Thanks for your thoughts.

The replacement should be pretty simple. Keeping lines - flushing them out, duct configuration the same except for enlarging one line (about 6 ft. from unit to vent), no change of electricity or gas, outside easy access, good concrete slab.

I do not want to nickel-and-dime them, I just want a good idea whether it is a fair deal for both sides.


Texquest