Final HP choices (Extended warranty?)

[VDV]

This site has been extremely helpful so far in picking out the right HP/Air handler combos, but have a couple final questions.

We have had three dealers come into our house and after some talking here are their best offers (best only imo). Only one dealer did a heat load calc (Came out to be right about 2.5 ton, our current unit was a 3 ton).


Dealer 1: Carrier

HP: 25HPA636
Hander: FE4003

This dealer also says that they include 10 year Parts/Labor + 10 year Rust/Lightning warranty + 1 year satisfaction guarantee. Called it "Carrier Five Star" warranty and mentioned that it is transferable between dealers, etc. So if they go out of business another dealer would honor the warranty. Quick google search turned up pretty much nothing on this. Is this worth it?

This dealer has been highly recommended to us and is a "presidents award recipient"

Dealer 2:

Same offer as dealer one, a little bit cheaper (i.e. 95% out of a 100% being dealer 1).

This dealer only offered the standard 10 year parts/ 1 year labor.

This one did the load calc, ended up suggesting the same tonnage as other two dealers.

Dealer 3: (Amana)

HP: ASZ16
With what I believe is AEPF426016C air handler
Standard Amana warranty (Lifetime replacement, 10 years parts)

All come out to be around 16 seer and 9.1-9.5 HSPF ratings. Same cost as Dealer 2.

So basically all systems cost the same.

Is the warranty being provided by Dealer 1 legit?

Thank you for your help.

[skippedover]

As a Bryant dealer, I am ill equipped to comment as to the validity of the "Carrier 5-Point" program. What I will say is that if it's put in writing, what more can you ask for? It would be nice to hear it from Carrier, I admit so you could always email for call them for verification. But all of that aside, you said Dealer #2 was the only one of the three who actually did a load calc, is that correct? If so, he'd get my vote. I don't trust anybody who doesn't do a load calc, no exceptions. The DOE doesn't say "Load calcs are good but....." They just say that's the ONLY way to do it. :payattention: I have a lot more faith in the ethics of a company that does it the right way than I do for any warranty, real or concocted. :rules:

[VDV]

As a Bryant dealer, I am ill equipped to comment as to the validity of the "Carrier 5-Point" program. What I will say is that if it's put in writing, what more can you ask for? It would be nice to hear it from Carrier, I admit so you could always email for call them for verification. But all of that aside, you said Dealer #2 was the only one of the three who actually did a load calc, is that correct? If so, he'd get my vote. I don't trust anybody who doesn't do a load calc, no exceptions. The DOE doesn't say "Load calcs are good but....." They just say that's the ONLY way to do it. :payattention: I have a lot more faith in the ethics of a company that does it the right way than I do for any warranty, real or concocted. :rules:

Dealer 1 and Dealer 3 run through the house, looked at the old unit and offered 3 ton right away, dealer 1 though took his time. Dealer 1 was the only one that noticed some other issues that had to be addressed with the current installation that Dealer 2 and 3 didn't.

Dealer 2 did not initially do the load calc either, when I asked him about it he said he would do it to confirm his call on 3 ton system. He sent me the calculations and they did confirm it, it seems.

Overall Dealer 3 did the least amount of work (The whole process took him less than 3 minutes).

Right now I'm pulling toward either Dealer 1 or Dealer 2. Both are highly respected dealers in this area. I'm not sure how I feel about Dealer 1 not performing a heat load, but this is a replacement system after all, and they did come to the same conclusion as dealer 2.

Choices... Choices....:eek2:

[jovusun]

The rust and lightening warranty sounds a little fishy to me. I have been in the business for 30 years and have never heard of such a warranty. What if the equipment were installed by the beach? Saltwater air rusts out units in a year or two. If you plan on living in the home for some years to come I would go with the Amana unit. They do have a 10 year labor warranty available to piggyback that 10 year parts warranty that is very reasonable in price. The fact of the matter is that regardless of brand, one day that compressor will fail. You can rest a lot easier when they completely remove the old unit and replace it with the newer version of what you purchased. It doesn't matter if it's 2 years from now or 20 years from now, you get the entire unit replaced under warranty. If the labor warranty has run out say in 20 years from now, it's still a lot cheaper to pay for installation charges rather than unit plus installation charges. Something the usual individual doesn't think about.....HVAC equipment has a life expectancy in RUN HOURS...since it's a heat pump and used for both A/C and Heating the run hours accumulate faster on a heat pump than an A/C unit, so A/C versus HP, the heat pump generally will fail in less years regardless of brand. I just visited the Amana factory in Houston,Tx 2 weeks ago, and they make some seriously excellent equipment. If you were purchasing a gas furnace, they make the very best bar none. You can see their information at www.amana-hac.com. Thats what I would install at my mothers house, and I can get them all...

[VDV]

The rust and lightening warranty sounds a little fishy to me. I have been in the business for 30 years and have never heard of such a warranty. What if the equipment were installed by the beach? Saltwater air rusts out units in a year or two. If you plan on living in the home for some years to come I would go with the Amana unit. They do have a 10 year labor warranty available to piggyback that 10 year parts warranty that is very reasonable in price. The fact of the matter is that regardless of brand, one day that compressor will fail. You can rest a lot easier when they completely remove the old unit and replace it with the newer version of what you purchased. It doesn't matter if it's 2 years from now or 20 years from now, you get the entire unit replaced under warranty. If the labor warranty has run out say in 20 years from now, it's still a lot cheaper to pay for installation charges rather than unit plus installation charges. Something the usual individual doesn't think about.....HVAC equipment has a life expectancy in RUN HOURS...since it's a heat pump and used for both A/C and Heating the run hours accumulate faster on a heat pump than an A/C unit, so A/C versus HP, the heat pump generally will fail in less years regardless of brand. I just visited the Amana factory in Houston,Tx 2 weeks ago, and they make some seriously excellent equipment. If you were purchasing a gas furnace, they make the very best bar none. You can see their information at www.amana-hac.com. Thats what I would install at my mothers house, and I can get them all...

This is the only mention of it that I found online: (Quoted from a dealer long distance away)
"
On Carrier’s Infinity System, ___ also offers the unique Carrier Five Star Warranty. This provides:

10 years Parts and Labor Extended Warranties
A Special Insurance Deductible Reimbursement (up to $500.00) should either of your units be hit by lightning
A 10 year Rust Though Warranty on all functional parts
An Energy Savings Guarantee
Satisfaction or your Money Back Guarantee
"

I'm not sure if we are going to live in this house for 20 years though. 5-10 years, yes. 15+ not so sure.

[jovusun]

There is a good reason why most of the dealers did not perform a heat load calculation.... It is a replacement unit. Someone that has been in the business for a number of years can tell by the conditions of the house, along with size etc. if the unit is the right size for the house. How many times must a contractor perform a heat load calculation when he has been in the same tract home 500 times but at different addresses and different cities? Heat load calculations are great, don't get me wrong, but must you measure your feet everytime you go buy yourself shoes? Heat load calculations are as good as the technician that performs them. If a 3 ton unit has served you well for the past X number of years, would you really want to go with something smaller? What if you do put in that 2-1/2 ton unit and in peak summer it doesn't cool "quite as well" as you expected? I'm not knocking heat load calculations, but you must remember that they are also angled for the system to be operated under text book conditions....How many times do we find text book conditions in a home? Almost never.

[skippedover]

The rust and lightening warranty sounds a little fishy to me. I have been in the business for 30 years and have never heard of such a warranty. What if the equipment were installed by the beach? Saltwater air rusts out units in a year or two.

I must have missed something along the way. I've installed literally hundreds of systems, some literally ON the beach. In fact, one of our service vans got stuck in the beach sand today doing a routine maintenance visit to a home on pilings (to protect agains storm surge) and the AC unit is on the porch! No rust. System is 9-years old.


If you plan on living in the home for some years to come I would go with the Amana unit. They do have a 10 year labor warranty available to piggyback that 10 year parts warranty that is very reasonable in price. The fact of the matter is that regardless of brand, one day that compressor will fail. This is a scare tactic. One day we'll all fail too. In 20 years, there's likely a much more efficient system than the one that will go in today. So that 20-year replacement warranty isn't really anything more than a marketing ploy. Once the outdoor unit doesn't match the air handler, the warranty is a joke.
You can rest a lot easier when they completely remove the old unit and replace it with the newer version of what you purchased. It doesn't matter if it's 2 years from now or 20 years from now, you get the entire unit replaced under warranty. If the labor warranty has run out say in 20 years from now, it's still a lot cheaper to pay for installation charges rather than unit plus installation charges. See my previous on this warranty stuff.


Something the usual individual doesn't think about.....HVAC equipment has a life expectancy in RUN HOURS...since it's a heat pump and used for both A/C and Heating the run hours accumulate faster on a heat pump than an A/C unit, so A/C versus HP, the heat pump generally will fail in less years regardless of brand. HPs generally have a heavier compressor than a straight AC unit. I've not yet replaced a HP compressor that had the same model number as a comparble AC unit. But that's just my experience. I've seen as many HPs go just as long as AC units. Again, I think the scare tactic is a little much.
I just visited the Amana factory in Houston,Tx 2 weeks ago, and they make some seriously excellent equipment. If you were purchasing a gas furnace, they make the very best bar none. You can see their information at www.amana-hac.com (http://www.amana-hac.com). Thats what I would install at my mothers house, and I can get them all... Ah, now we get to the crux of it. You're supporting Amana and have just been all pumped up with their marketing hype. Okay, that's good but I think you'll find many of the pros on this sight who will take some exception to your claim that Amana is the best. I'm not saying they're any worse nor better than others. I put a new HP system in my house 2-years ago. It wasn't an Amana. Love it. 'Nuff said.

[VDV]

The current 3 ton system lasted for 16 years before compressor failing. It performed pretty well.

[Stamas]

I must have missed something along the way. I've installed literally hundreds of systems, some literally ON the beach. In fact, one of our service vans got stuck in the beach sand today doing a routine maintenance visit to a home on pilings (to protect agains storm surge) and the AC unit is on the porch! No rust. System is 9-years old.

This is a scare tactic. One day we'll all fail too. In 20 years, there's likely a much more efficient system than the one that will go in today. So that 20-year replacement warranty isn't really anything more than a marketing ploy. Once the outdoor unit doesn't match the air handler, the warranty is a joke. See my previous on this warranty stuff.

HPs generally have a heavier compressor than a straight AC unit. I've not yet replaced a HP compressor that had the same model number as a comparble AC unit. But that's just my experience. I've seen as many HPs go just as long as AC units. Again, I think the scare tactic is a little much. Ah, now we get to the crux of it. You're supporting Amana and have just been all pumped up with their marketing hype. Okay, that's good but I think you'll find many of the pros on this sight who will take some exception to your claim that Amana is the best. I'm not saying they're any worse nor better than others. I put a new HP system in my house 2-years ago. It wasn't an Amana. Love it. 'Nuff said.


Well put.

One of the worst things you can do is turn a system off.
I've replaced many, many systems where the compressors after thirty plus years still worked, but systems changed for other reasons.
What happens in 20 years and you need a compressor and that install dealer is long gone? Call some other contractor and they are going to jump to change out a unit they didn't install and are not going to make what they should make off a new unit?
Many warranties offered in the higher tiers pay well and pay the margin or close to it that the contractor would have made otherwise on parts and material as well as higher labor rates. I think that Carrier warranty is the same.
Not doing a load calc because of prior experience is a weak excuse.

[skippedover]

There is a good reason why most of the dealers did not perform a heat load calculation.... It is a replacement unit. Someone that has been in the business for a number of years can tell by the conditions of the house, along with size etc. if the unit is the right size for the house. How many times must a contractor perform a heat load calculation when he has been in the same tract home 500 times but at different addresses and different cities? Heat load calculations are great, don't get me wrong, but must you measure your feet everytime you go buy yourself shoes? Heat load calculations are as good as the technician that performs them. If a 3 ton unit has served you well for the past X number of years, would you really want to go with something smaller? What if you do put in that 2-1/2 ton unit and in peak summer it doesn't cool "quite as well" as you expected? I'm not knocking heat load calculations, but you must remember that they are also angled for the system to be operated under text book conditions....How many times do we find text book conditions in a home? Almost never.

So what's your point? Those of us who do heat loads every time are idiots? Don't know our own shoe size? What? The DOE says heat load calc every time. So does ACCA. So do the manufacturers. So you've been in 100, 500, 1,000 homes. So what? Let me ask you a question. A room is 10 x 10. How much Air? Now put in a couple of windows and a slider. Same size room, more glass. How much air? Turn the room so the slider is north. How much air? Turn the room so the slider is south. How much air? For those of us who do load calcs regularly, we know the load in that example changes. We also know that someone in that "tract house" you know so well keeps the shades down all summer. Another has no shades. One put a porch on that shades southerly windows. Another added more insulation.

So you're right. You almost never find 'text book' conditions in a home. That's why there's Manual 'J' 7 and Manual 'J' 8. Make all the changes you need for each home. And that's exactly why a load analysis should be done. No two homes are ever exactly the same. So maybe the previous installer did an accurate heat load calc. How would you know that unless the HO produces a printed copy of it and states that no changes to the home have been made since that last heat load. And even the, I'm sure I'd do my own to verify his/her numbers. It's just professional. That's all.

[Stamas]

So what's your point? Those of us who do heat loads every time are idiots? Don't know our own shoe size? What? The DOE says heat load calc every time. So does ACCA. So do the manufacturers. So you've been in 100, 500, 1,000 homes. So what? Let me ask you a question. A room is 10 x 10. How much Air? Now put in a couple of windows and a slider. Same size room, more glass. How much air? Turn the room so the slider is north. How much air? Turn the room so the slider is south. How much air? For those of us who do load calcs regularly, we know the load in that example changes. We also know that someone in that "tract house" you know so well keeps the shades down all summer. Another has no shades. One put a porch on that shades southerly windows. Another added more insulation.

So you're right. You almost never find 'text book' conditions in a home. That's why there's Manual 'J' 7 and Manual 'J' 8. Make all the changes you need for each home. And that's exactly why a load analysis should be done. No two homes are ever exactly the same. So maybe the previous installer did an accurate heat load calc. How would you know that unless the HO produces a printed copy of it and states that no changes to the home have been made since that last heat load. And even the, I'm sure I'd do my own to verify his/her numbers. It's just professional. That's all.

Now move on to Man D......




Never mind, hope the OP gets your point(s).

[VDV]

Now move on to Man D......




Never mind, hope the OP gets your point(s).

I do, on the other hand I am also little weary of dismissing a greatly recommended contractor based on a flaw like this.

Tough decision. :nopity:

[dash]

We don't always do a Manual J for a couple of reasons.

One, because we tend to know what subdivisions have over sized equipment,and the owner always knows if it's undersized. Secondly when we do them,consumers are hesitant to down size,regardless of the Man. J, due to a fear of lack of cooling,and that's what they already have and it works fine so far.

If your home has the original sized system and has had upgrades to windows or attic insulation,it's worth doing the Man. J as upgrades may have reduced the Man. J load calculation,so you could use a smaller system.



Regardless we would be happy to do a Man. J,and even calculate one with more attic insulation or window improvements you are willing to make,if they would reduce the equipment size required. Definitely a good way for you to go, to save money by heating and cooling your home with a smaller system for many years to come.

The Five Star Warranty is a product of the Carrier Distributor in Florida and is definitely legitimate.This warranty is only available to Carrier Factory Authorized Dealers in Florida. Admittedly the rust through seldom happens,the lightning does on occasion and they will pay. More importantly the customer satisfaction is more often used if a major component fails in the first year,and the consumer loses confidence in the unit,so it gets replaced at no charge.

The energy savings guarantee is also valuable,if you don't notice early on that saving are not what they should and have it addressed, you can get reimbursed. If you don't save 25% of heating and cooling costs, there is always an equipment problem or an installation issue,like ducts are to small.

What is interesting in my opinion, is that no other brand has the confidence in their contractors or equipment, to offer these warranties.

FYI we are contractor number one,in this thread.

[jovusun]

No rust on a beach unit after 9 years? C'mon, I'd have to see that one. I used to work for Sears back in 1981 when I first got into this business. We serviced units that were along the Seawall on Galveston Island that the fins were seriously damaged after a year and basically gone after the second year. If there are any other members from this area they would vouch for that 100%...So what's with the scare tactic accusation??? I merely stated facts as I have seen them personally....as a matter of fact it doesn't matter which HVAC contractor you call in Galveston, Texas....they will verify it to be true.
Secondly, as a recommendation of the Amana, that's an opinion....something that everyone has....it would be stupid to call it a scare tactic too???? Yes, I happen to be an Amana dealer, but then again I happen to also be a Ruud Dealer, Coleman Dealer, Goodman Dealer, and Nordyne Dealer. I have been a Carrier Dealer and dropped them in the past when they had a manufacturing problem with their evaporator coils. I also see lots of 38-BRC's dropping like flies that are just past the five year mark. In my opinion...(and yes I have one) I think those units are a piece of junk. Builders unit junk!

Personally I think that VDV is doing a freat thing by installing a 16 SEER system. We mainly sell 16 SEER systems here ourselves, but that's not what the "Majority" of HVAC contractors are selling or pushing for that matter.

Perhaps it's a good thing I do the nerdy things like attend meetings, go to factory tours and the like, perhaps if you did it yourself you might know a little bit more than parts house gossip.

What kind of B.S. is that about HP's having different compressors? I guess that one was learned at ACSU...Air Conditioning Supply University. If you told me your point of view was from 1950-60's heat pumps, then I'd believe you. They were after all invented in 1951.

Never once did I say it was proper NOT to run a heat load calc. Those words never came out of my mouth or out of my fingers for that matter. NONE of the three contractors were going to do a heat load calc until the customer said something about it.
I simply gave a reason as why "MOST OF THE DEALERS" (those were the words I used, was it not?) do not perform a heat load calc on every job.

Let me guess...you're the exception? I suppose you also set up a blower door infiltrometer on every job you ever go to....or do you even know what one is or how to operate the machine?

I used to be a field technical representative for York back in the 1990's. So I got my fill of what contractors do. They paid me to go figure out what problems companies had in the field, that their technicians could not figure out. It wasn't a job I applied for, It was one that was offered to me by the York sales rep because of my ability to troubleshoot and solve problems.

I guess I devoloped that kind of skill when I dealt with medical researchers that had experiments and millions of dollars on the line and second rate just wouldn't do. Working on those Warren-Scherer controlled environmental rooms, electron-microscope refrigeration units, cascade systems and the like taught me a little bit.

Yep, I'm from Texas, not back woods mind you....and my purpose here is quite obviously different than most, I'm not here to see who can play King of the Hill in posting....

People that do that need to wear a bandana....cuz their redneck is showing!!! LOL

[seatonheating]

No rust on a beach unit after 9 years? C'mon, I'd have to see that one. I used to work for Sears back in 1981 when I first got into this business. We serviced units that were along the Seawall on Galveston Island that the fins were seriously damaged after a year and basically gone after the second year. If there are any other members from this area they would vouch for that 100%...So what's with the scare tactic accusation??? I merely stated facts as I have seen them personally....as a matter of fact it doesn't matter which HVAC contractor you call in Galveston, Texas....they will verify it to be true.
Secondly, as a recommendation of the Amana, that's an opinion....something that everyone has....it would be stupid to call it a scare tactic too???? Yes, I happen to be an Amana dealer, but then again I happen to also be a Ruud Dealer, Coleman Dealer, Goodman Dealer, and Nordyne Dealer. I have been a Carrier Dealer and dropped them in the past when they had a manufacturing problem with their evaporator coils. I also see lots of 38-BRC's dropping like flies that are just past the five year mark. In my opinion...(and yes I have one) I think those units are a piece of junk. Builders unit junk!

Personally I think that VDV is doing a freat thing by installing a 16 SEER system. We mainly sell 16 SEER systems here ourselves, but that's not what the "Majority" of HVAC contractors are selling or pushing for that matter.

Perhaps it's a good thing I do the nerdy things like attend meetings, go to factory tours and the like, perhaps if you did it yourself you might know a little bit more than parts house gossip.

What kind of B.S. is that about HP's having different compressors? I guess that one was learned at ACSU...Air Conditioning Supply University. If you told me your point of view was from 1950-60's heat pumps, then I'd believe you. They were after all invented in 1951.

Never once did I say it was proper NOT to run a heat load calc. Those words never came out of my mouth or out of my fingers for that matter. NONE of the three contractors were going to do a heat load calc until the customer said something about it.
I simply gave a reason as why "MOST OF THE DEALERS" (those were the words I used, was it not?) do not perform a heat load calc on every job.

Let me guess...you're the exception? I suppose you also set up a blower door infiltrometer on every job you ever go to....or do you even know what one is or how to operate the machine?

I used to be a field technical representative for York back in the 1990's. So I got my fill of what contractors do. They paid me to go figure out what problems companies had in the field, that their technicians could not figure out. It wasn't a job I applied for, It was one that was offered to me by the York sales rep because of my ability to troubleshoot and solve problems.

I guess I devoloped that kind of skill when I dealt with medical researchers that had experiments and millions of dollars on the line and second rate just wouldn't do. Working on those Warren-Scherer controlled environmental rooms, electron-microscope refrigeration units, cascade systems and the like taught me a little bit.

Yep, I'm from Texas, not back woods mind you....and my purpose here is quite obviously different than most, I'm not here to see who can play King of the Hill in posting....

People that do that need to wear a bandana....cuz their redneck is showing!!! LOL

I'm still waiting for you to produce a good point.

[Stamas]

You wouldn't hear it if he did, drum is too loud.:toetap: